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BP Oil Leak

Discussion in 'Congregation of the Masses' started by sce4, Jun 11, 2010.

  1. sce4

    sce4

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    We've all been hearing about the massive BP Oil spill in the gulf of Mexico. I think we can all agree that this is a massive, human induced, disaster that we should try to contain as soon as possible.

    What I want to address is how politicians, especially Obama, are handling this crisis.

    I think that Barack Obama is being very immature in his dealing with it, trying to pass blame (that wasn't even his) onto other people and reiterate the British roots of the company. I also think that his "kicking ass" attitude is entirely inappropriate. BP has the same number of American owners as British and there are twice as many American employees compared to British. On top of this I don't see why BP should be prosecuted when the number of American chemical disasters and numerous oil spills have had almost no long-term, negative side effect. Not to mention BP contribute 1 in every 6 pounds to British pensioners and Barack Obama's influence is already cutting that.

    What people seem to have done is add to the negative repercussions of this event rather than try to prevent any more damage.

    The point of this post is to start a discussion about how you would approach this disaster and what you think is being done wrong or right as well as to get an American view of the disaster.
  2. bleed4m3

    bleed4m3

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    Well I don't know all about the British aspect of this, but in my opinion the real problem here is our reliance on oil. As long as we are so dependent upon oil, instances like these will keep happening.

    I would hope that politicians would take events like this as an opportunity to promote alternative fuel, especially wind energy.

    But that's just me.
  3. ginganinja

    ginganinja Call me and I'll come
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    The interestig thing that I have heard (not sure if its entirely true) is that whenever highly viable alternative sources of energy are discorered or technology has been produced to abuse different energy sources, I have heard that Oil companies have bought out the technonogy since they would be out of business otherwsie
    Food for thought?
  4. conway

    conway

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    what you're saying is completely true. they even force the goverment to not step directly over to green energy. the goverments of countries aren't leading countries, countries are lead by the oil company's.
  5. Viashino_wizard

    Viashino_wizard

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    I think BP is absolutely at fault here. The severity of the crisis is a direct result of the inadequate safety precautions taken by the company, who not only let their advancement of containment technology atrophy, but neglected safety and maintenance to cut costs and allegedly bribed the people responsible for ensuring they met the (already pretty lax) regulations. They've also dropped the ball several times when it comes to containing and dealing with the problem.

    This is the largest oil spill and environmental disaster int he history of America. That oil is killing wildlife, destroying the beaches of coastal American cities and severely damaging all the people who relie on the ocean to earn their livelyhood, particularly fisherman. Maybe there won't be long-term side effects (which is questionable with a disaster this big), but there are many immediate harmful side-effects.
  6. Ancien Régime

    Ancien Régime capitalism delenda est
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    wow it took this fucking long to make a topic about the worst environmental disaster in the history of the country

    the smogon response is almost as bad as the federal response :D

    but yeah, bp will only have to pay 75 million of a trillion dollar bill, the BP executives are immune from prosecution because the BP corporation caused the spill, not any of the execs, and the gulf of mexico is fucked.

    From a theoretical standpoint, this is due to three main factors:

    1: Liability cap: Imagine if instead of getting life in prison for robbing a bank, you got community service, AND only had to pay back 10% of the money you stole. I think a lot more people would rob banks. Liability caps work kind of like that. You make money by putting the environment and your workers at risk, shit hits the fan, and instead of having to pay all the costs like a normal person, you only pay a tiny drop of them.

    2: Bush-Cheney. Cheney is pretty much the worst politician in American history, and possibly the worst politician in the history of all democracies (especially if you don't count guys like Hitler who had democracies in name only). I challenge you t

    Cheney essentially represents everything that could possibly be wrong with a government.

    3: "Regulation" - While regulation is an inefficient means of securing property rights on a large scale, they are pretty much the only means in the current system. So that kind of means the regulators have to be honest, incorruptible, and certainly not former oil lobbyists for it to work, right? Oh wait, we can't expect that.

    The thing that makes me laugh is that what is standard practice here - essentially powerful economic interests paying elected officials to gain benefits or exemptions to law - is lobbying and is generally accepted, while in other contexts (like a private citizen slipping the DMV guy a 50 to expedite his license processing) is bribery and illegal. I guess only big politically connected government interests are allowed to bribe, the rules are for squares and non-rich people. Just like the bailouts.

    (of course, I can also talk about people blaming this on the free market, as if anything about BP represented anything about the free market in even the most tangential way)

    This whole thing just solidifies my feeling that the current political/social/economic system needs to be dismantled ASAP.
  7. The Requiem

    The Requiem

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    There seems to be a huge chunk of story missing here. No one's talking about how this whole "accident" was quite clearly an on purpose. I'll get to that after the break. I have to do my usual retort wall.

    I'm not saying Obama is innocent, but pointing the finger at the figurehead is just the easy thing to do. You really only know what the media tells you. What you think you know could be (and probably is) far, far away from what is actually going on. Chalk any of this madness up to Obama is coming out on camera and saying what he's told the people want to hear.

    Also, BP absolutely needs to be prosecuted. Hard. You can say the disasters in the past have had no long-term negative side effect. But when's the last time this much oil got dumped into the ocean? When's the last time the problem was allowed to go on for this long? Each disaster is different, factors like the when, where, and how all come into play. We have no idea what kind of long term effects this spill is going to have. And last I checked, the spill is still damn spilling.

    I'm pretty sure that this is entirely true. If the oil tycoons are willing to use money and propoganda to make marijuana illegal so hemp doesen't destroy their cash flow (see: reefer madness) then I wouldn't put anything past them. Money makes the world go around. The people that have it will do ANYTHING to keep their pockets fat.

    Yeah, I'm pretty surprised by this myself.

    This. Really what's happening with this crisis is the tip of the iceberg. We needed to dismantle the system years ago. Now they're just running wild.


    Okay, all quote-retort walls aside, I'm entirely convinced that this entire oil spill crisis was plotted and executed, and money is the reason the earth is still bleeding into the gulf. There's just WAY TOO MUCH shady stuff going on around this issue.

    Start here. Halliburton's losing money because of a lack of offshore drilling:
    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/6965173.html

    Halliburton cementing crew emerges as focus on oil accident.
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126536457

    Halliburton buys "Boots n Coots 8 days before the spill"
    http://www.datehookup.com/Thread-455160.htm
    http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/investing/halliburton-snaps-up-boots-and-coots/19435689/

    Halliburton fucked up in Austraila, too.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/science/...burton-could-be-at-fault-for-oil-spill/56131/

    Tony hayward sells 1/3 of his shares weeks before the oil spill
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...yward-sold-shares-weeks-before-oil-spill.html

    BP cant get the story straight about how much oil is getting pumped into the ocean.
    http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/05/30/oil.spill.bp.government/index.html

    BP fakes the funk about cleaning the shit up:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/28/oil-spill-response-army-o_n_594014.html

    EDIT:

    BP and the media blackout:
    http://www.manticoregroup.com/radio/2010/06jun/jamesfox2010.mp3
    http://www.veritasshow.com/veritasplayer.html
  8. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight DK! DK! Donkey Kong is here!
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    There wouldn't be so much damage if the federal government had used the boom plan they drafted in 1994 under the Clinton Administration. They've had plans for this ever since offshore drilling came into existence, but they didn't execute. Liability caps exist so that high-risk endeavors like this can take place. They also exist so that you can't lose your shirt because some lady was too stupid to realize her coffee was hot and decided to take your company to the cleaners. "Jackpot Justice" is a greater evil than liability caps.

    Good thing Bush-Cheney got kicked out. One-and-a-half years ago. When did you start drinking moonbat-brand Kool-Aid Ancien Regime? The Obama Administration is who approved the latest safety check of Deepwater Horizon. Incidentally, I'd put Woodrow Wilson or FDR up against Cheney for worst politician in a democracy any day. WW and FDR were actually presidents with actual power, not some random VP who for some reason drives the uber-left insane because he worked in the oil industry.

    Why is Deep Water Horizon out drilling so far into the sea? Because do-gooder environmentalists made it illegal to drill in much safer venues for oil. They crow about "big oil" making too many profits and taking too many risks, then make it infinitely more dangerous by barring them from exploring in lower risk areas, thus requiring them to invest more capital for ever larger and grander projects with greater risks just to maintain their current margins.

    I agree with this, but at the end of the day the government is at fault. The government is a monopoly that tries to bring all other industries unto itself to further solidify it's monopoly. It inherently distorts the market and should be barred from doing so.

    No, we need to weed out the corruption by going back to our founding principles. Constitutionalism, not anarchy, is what every citizen must put their weight behind. Corporatism is Communism's ugly twin sister, not Capitalism's.
  9. Stagnant

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    I believe that my biggest disappointment was that the company didn't have an "Oh, shit! Button." Not all worse-case-scenario's can be predicted but at the very least there should of been something that could of prevented or greatly limit the spill.

    Another things that irks me is that the company is/ was seemingly putting minimal effort into sealing off the oil. For example, during operation 'Top Hat' (or what ever) the seal that BP choose was in fact not the best but efficient-for-the-cost.

    Good news is that a good portion of the Oil can be recycled!
  10. MrIndigo

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    BP should be bankrupted over this, and the managing directors should be put in an American jail for years.

    They are probably the biggest oil transporter in the world, and they can't even patch a fucking hole. It's a disgrace, and they're all going to walk away with golden handshakes and the like, if they're forced to resign at all.

    The CEO was laughing in an interview they did with him.
  11. ginganinja

    ginganinja Call me and I'll come
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    Lol its news in little old New Zealand as well. And in typical New Zealand tradition we are currently doing our bit to stick it to BP.

    Some of us are boycotting BP. Yeah!
    Thats going to force BP to front up!
  12. Phantom_IV

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    That quote's taken out of context. The interviewer asked him whose butt he was looking to kick or something of the like in his question. So essentially Obama just took the question given and made it a bit funnier.

    Oh, and DK:
    Wha? Where's the DK we've come to know and love? He'd be all for tearing down big government to the point where they're just signing treaties and mediating interstate wars.
  13. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    I think you're looking for a way to blame the President, rather than looking at what's going on and coming to the conclusion. I'm no Obama apologist, but "trying to pass blame onto other people"? That's a pretty funny way of wording "figuring out who was responsible".

    Where do you see him emphasizing BP's British roots? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about him referring to the company by its name?

    I think such a view of the oil spill that it will have "almost no" long term negative side effect is at best pretty ignorant.
  14. Trax

    Trax

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    My exact thoughts...

    Oil destroys economy alternate energy sources need.
  15. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
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    Uhh.. Surely at this point it, it's fair to say that it probably would have been better if this particular endeavour had not happened..

    Anyway, my limited understanding of this situation is that the real solution here is to build other wells and suck the oil out of those so it stops leaking out of the current one. Considering a break in a pipe is such a foreseeable accident it confuses me as to why the other wells werent built already.

    They arent actually required to do anything of the sort..

    Have a nice day.
  16. Ancien Régime

    Ancien Régime capitalism delenda est
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    I'm more offended that BP seemingly didn't have a plan than the government not executing one. But good point, yeah.

    Sorry, capping liability for anything is so anti-free market I don't know where to begin.

    Essentially, it socializes the risk that the activities of an individual company poses to others by limiting the amount said company has to pay to rectify any negative results. I'm sure you can see the enormous amount of moral hazard inherent in such a course. For all intents and purposes, it's a perpetual bailout to offending companies (especially considering that without this, BP would be facing bankruptcy/asset expropriation), because someone has to pay all this (taxpayers).

    But yeah, that liability cap sorely weakens the incentive for BP to follow the rules. Pretty much everyone knows how bad it is, on all sides of the political spectrum.

    Now, you bring up the other side of the spectrum - frivolous lawsuits. But that's more a system problem than anything; I'm sure the police get frivolous calls all the time, and lose lots of money to them on a departmental level. But they're able to deal with it.

    Of course Obama fucked up, nobody denies this. But it does not change the fact that BP and other oil companies seemed to have thought their political connections centering largely around Dick Cheney gave them the ability to do what they wanted.

    Wilson is up there too.

    Oops, I forgot this. You also neglect to mention the whole "we're not using a clean, safe, and virtually renewable resource which causes less deaths on average than fossil fuels" thing.

    NUCLEARNUCLEARNUCLEARNOWNOWNOW


    Don't you see, BP *is* the government!

    ...or rather, BP is an example of the power of the state to attenuate property rights for the sake of well-connected insiders. Own a beach? Own a fishery? Well, fuck you; we care more about BP's lobbying money than your "right" to not have crude oil dripping onto your boat. Next thing you know the government will actually take your house and kick you off your land at the behest of corporations...

    wait...that already happens.


    Hmm? Oil fields are public property; the government gives permits to drill. I presume that environmental pressure has forced oil rigs further out to see in order to protect wetlands from oil residue and such (funny how that works out, eh)?

    Still, it's water under the bridge compared to that other issue coughnotusingnuclearcough
  17. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
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    What I was trying to say was that requiring people to not drill here, is not requiring them to drill there.

    And yeah, the liability cap is essentially a catastrophic environmental damage subsidy.. Uhh..

    Have a nice day.
  18. Phantom_IV

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    Already mentioned, but Liability Caps are plain wrong. If you mess up something that's worth billions and you can't pay for it, you pay what you can and go under. They create a moral hazard of the same type that Wall Street had, where people had an incentive to take big risks because it wasn't their money. Come on, DK, I thought you knew better than this. If anyone you should be against them, because where personal liability falls short, taxpayers step in.

    And no, this is completely unrelated to "Jackpot Justice", which I agree is evil. Juries and people in general have no clue about the value of money when they're constantly bombarded by absurd numbers from the media. Thus astronomical amounts are awarded to citizens that quite frankly have very little earning potential (fat women going to McDonald's) for things as vague as "pain and suffering."
  19. Alan

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    For the record I live in an area that is affected by it and its really not the bad. It SEEMS bad and yeah the beaches are fucked and fish are gonna die and what not. But there are less tourists, so driving is a lot easier and there are less bad drivers.

    Yeah its gonna take some time to clean it up, but its a big operation. I actually don't blame BP for this. I mean, oil spills happen all the fucking time. Its not the first time. At least they are trying to do it themselves and accept full responsibility for it. I commend them for that. Every cloud has a silver lining, for future oil spills we will know pretty much what to do thanks to this one. Its not like its the first time we have had an oil spill, it wont be the last, so just take accept that and try to do what you can.

    tl;dr version:
    i dont mind the oil spill it just means less tourists
    its not BP's fault they are taking responsibility and trying to fix it
    this oil spill will help out for future oil spills as far as solutions

    edit: also yeah how did it take this long to make a thread about it, its been going on for like 2 months? O__O;;
  20. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    Your priorities do not seem to be in the right place.
  21. Norid

    Norid

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    Actually, in comparison this oil spill is fairly small, compared to some of the others that have occurred in the past:

    http://www.gavinpotenza.com/worst-oil-spills/

    And, I realize that BP should have had a better contingency plan for this, but you must realize that this is more likely than not an extreme case of unfortunate events being chained together.

    Oddly enough, did you guys know that a potential solution being kicked around is to just nuke it? It won't be as crude as just dropping a nuke into the middle of the Gulf of Mexico, but yea.
  22. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    The graphic is out of date. When finding information, a bit of reading comprehension is required, instead of stopping when the numbers seem to correspond to what you want to hear.
  23. Norid

    Norid

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    And I'm sure you'll gladly tell me all there is to know about finding information, right?

    So the graph is a bit outdated. So what. The point it tries to make is still valid: it's not "omgwtf worst oil spill EVARR!!!!111one1!!!!" as everyone on the internet is claiming it to be (not accusing any of you of this behavior, but it is something that I see more and more frequently), although admittedly that may change in time.

    Regardless, the main point I was trying to make was that while BP should be to blame, not everything is entirely their fault.
  24. Aura Guardian

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    It's a very bad spill, one of the worst in America's waters. So, yeah, I think calling it one of the worst spills ever - it is one of them - is justifiable. And that data - wasn't it compared to the other big spills? (and the biggest - wasn't a war going on in the area or something?
  25. Norid

    Norid

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    Yes, it recently claimed the title of "worst oil spill in US territory," passing the Exxon incident near Alaska. That being said, it still has not surpassed Ixtoc 1 spill yet, and hasn't come close yet to the Gulf War oil spill.

    Yes, I'm realizing I'm saying "yet" a lot. That diagram wasn't even the main reason I posted here, it was just something to preface my real point: it's bad, and BP has a lot to answer for, but the oil spill was due to a series of unfortunate events, not a lack of competence or adherence to safety regulations.

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