Breaking Down the Walls Project [Read post #129]

@ Nubagator, if you could format your post to be more like this one and Joeyboy's I'd really appreciate it, as it's hard to tell what exactly you're nominating seeing as you mention around a half dozen different Pokemon in your post. Also, I'm not sure if CM Jirachi really qualifies as a Wallbreaker; it's more of a Stallbreaker. Basically, Wallbreakers do it fast and hard, Stallbreakers take their time. There are better explanations on the OP.
Well I glanced at the OP, and then sort of posted unaware that we were supposed to be nominating so in fact I actually didn't nominate anything. (sorry :/ ) And when mentioning Jirachi I thought I called it a stall breaker, but I just ended up saying it was "really good at breaking stall."

In my opinion Salamence is the best Wallbreaker in the tier, but in an attempt to contribute I'll nominate Alakazam!



With it's standard set sporting perfect coverage magic guard, and an amazing 135 base Spatk it has all the tools it needs. These traits coupled with psyshock have dragged Zam out of the depths of UU, and set him up to be a fantastic Wallbreaker and a huge threat. The most common mons that run specially defensive sets on stall teams, are Chans/Bliss, TTar, Rachi, Heatran, Latias.
out of these all but Jirachi are hit super effectively or on the side of the spectrum they don't like. His ability to muscle through walls with very little to no support solidify him as an excellent wallbreaker in my opinion.
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Thanks for getting this up and running again, Jimera0! Here are my noms:

Haxorus

  • I am specifically referring to the Swords Dance & Taunt variant. Despite Haxorus's rather limited movepool, the ridiculous power from STAB Outrage backed by 147 base Attack will break apart even Steels after a Swords Dance. If it is holding LO, it would not even need Swords Dance to break down opposing team's defense.

Tyranitar

  • Unlike Haxorus, Tyranitar has a rich physical move pool to rip through any physical defenses with its CB set. Anything not crippled by Crunch or Stone Edge would fall victim to Aqua Tail or Fire Punch / Superpower. Not as potent as CB Terrakion, but still darn dangerous.
 
Alright, I've decided that everyone has 1 day left to nominate their Tier 1 Wallbreakers. I'm going to nominate a couple more myself in a moment here.

Latios
While I don't COMPLETELY agree that Latios fits the Tier 1 definition, it certainly can bust its way through many special walls with its power and coverage. Specifically, Psyshock allows most variants to KO Blissey and Chansey, while Surf and HP Fire can power through SDef Jirachi with the right conditions. It's certainly worth voting on at least.

Hydreigon
Often overlooked as a wallbreaker due to the existence of Salamence, it doesn't change the fact that it has great mixed offensive stats and the movepool to use them should you chose to. Using Outrage and Earthquake, it can muscle through the special walls that normally wall it (Sdef Jirachi, Heatran, the pink blobs) and Draco Meteor and Fire Blast cover the physical walls in the game pretty much completely. Can even run Work Up for a real surprise.

Also everyone now is the time to discuss whether you believe the nominees already mentioned are fit for Tier 1 or not. You can do more than just nominate during this phase, and the discussion can continue into the voting period as well!
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I believe Infernape is unfit as a Tier 1 Wallbreaker, due to it being hard-walled by Latias - Infernape wont be wallbreaking any teams with Latias. It would need to be coupled with a Pursuiter to get the job done, lacking the self-sufficiency expected from a Tier 1 Wallbreaker. Tentacruel also gives it ton of trouble. It has a rich movepool, but it suffers from 4MSS and will always find a mon or two walling it.
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Not to mention how weakened infernape is by weather in all of it's forms. In sand or hail it dies to fast, and in rain it's fire type moves are weakened. It has u-turn but nothing to distinguish it from other high speed users of the move.


I would say that the best wall breaker of this generation is SD rock gem terrakion, if it gets a sub up then the opponent has no way of predicting around it, extremely threatening. Following that I would say that CB scizor is actually very dangerous to stall teams because of Pursuit, in conjunction with Choice Specs Rotom-W and Terrakion you have a virtually unstoppable offensive core, but even by itself CB scizor is extremely useful against stall teams.

What distinguishes a good wallbreaker from an okay one is that the best ones are good against both stall and offense. Think of Lucario, Terrakion, and SD Scizor, they have a lot of utility in addition to their power.


EDIT:

Here are my nominations for tier one wall breakers:


SD Lucario: The gold standard of set-up sweepers, Lucario retains it's status as the number one most threatening pokemon this generation, just like it was in DPPt. It can run 2 different priority moves and other than Slowbro, nothing likes coming in on repeated Close Combats. Gliscor may seem to shut it down entirely, but Lucario can always choose to run various coverage moves to wreck whatever wall is currently fashionable to use against it.

Scizor SD and CB: SD Scizor is not quite as dangerous to stall as Lucario, but it is significantly more powerful and LO Bullet Punch can clean up offensive teams late game even without Swords Dance. The CB version is just unbelievably good, it traps things, revenges things, abuses entry hazards... In my opinion it is significantly more threatening in BW than it ever was in DPPt despite being unchanged.

In my mind both of these pokemon are vastly superior to LOL Hydreigon, LOL Infernape, and LOL Tyranitar (it isn't a even a wall breaker it's maybe a lure, maybe).
 
Not to mention how weakened infernape is by weather in all of it's forms. In sand or hail it dies to fast, and in rain it's fire type moves are weakened. It has u-turn but nothing to distinguish it from other high speed users of the move.


I would say that the best wall breaker of this generation is SD rock gem terrakion, if it gets a sub up then the opponent has no way of predicting around it, extremely threatening. Following that I would say that CB scizor is actually very dangerous to stall teams because of Pursuit, in conjunction with Choice Specs Rotom-W and Terrakion you have a virtually unstoppable offensive core, but even by itself CB scizor is extremely useful against stall teams.

What distinguishes a good wallbreaker from an okay one is that the best ones are good against both stall and offense. Think of Lucario, Terrakion, and SD Scizor, they have a lot of utility in addition to their power.


EDIT:

Here are my nominations for tier one wall breakers:


SD Lucario: The gold standard of set-up sweepers, Lucario retains it's status as the number one most threatening pokemon this generation, just like it was in DPPt. It can run 2 different priority moves and other than Slowbro, nothing likes coming in on repeated Close Combats. Gliscor may seem to shut it down entirely, but Lucario can always choose to run various coverage moves to wreck whatever wall is currently fashionable to use against it.

Scizor SD and CB: SD Scizor is not quite as dangerous to stall as Lucario, but it is significantly more powerful and LO Bullet Punch can clean up offensive teams late game even without Swords Dance. The CB version is just unbelievably good, it traps things, revenges things, abuses entry hazards... In my opinion it is significantly more threatening in BW than it ever was in DPPt despite being unchanged.

In my mind both of these pokemon are vastly superior to LOL Hydreigon, LOL Infernape, and LOL Tyranitar (it isn't a even a wall breaker it's maybe a lure, maybe).
Just a reminder that this topic is looking solely at a Pokemon's performance against WALLS. While it's nice to have a wallbreaker that can double as a sweeper and a stallbreaker that can double as a wall, that does not necessarily make them tier 1 material. The teirs are solely based on wallbreaking/stallbreaking ability.

Still, I'll add your nominations as I know Lucario in particular can be horrifying to stall. Scizor on the other hand can't break through really any dedicated physical walls. Skarmory, Hippowodon, Vaporeon, Jellicent, and others all beat SD scizor 1 on 1. Definitely not Tier 1 material in my opinion, though it obviously has a lot of other merits in other areas.

And another reminder Being hard walled by ONE or TWO Pokemon does not disqualify a Pokemon from being Tier 1. It needs to be able to beat the vast majority of walls overall, and have the capability to defeat at least say, 70% of walls with one moveset. Not everything can be Salamence you know; not even Terrakion or Dragonite can boast the ability to take out all but of the walls in the game with only one moveset. If we had that requirement, Salamence would be the only one in the tier!

However I am on the fence with Infernape myself. It does beat the vast majority of walls, but there are a sparse few like Latias and Jellicent that consistently give it trouble. However, it should be noted that it can potentially 2HKO Latios with a choice band set after rocks with Stone Edge, and will 2HKO Jellicent with grass knot after a NP boost, so it technically can get past them. It just isn't likely to do it with a classic mixed set. Still it does fit the definition of Tier 1, as I dare you to come up with another Pokemon that walls it. Two Pokemon isn't enough to discredit it as top tier wallbreaker, given the fact that it's pretty incredible that it's walled by so few in the first place.

As for some of the other nomineesL

I don't think Alakazam really counts because it isn't strong enough to muscle past Blissey (let alone Chansey) with a Life Orb set and the Choice set relies on way too many moves that have major Pokemon immune to them (Psychic walled by Tyranitar, Focus Blast by any Ghost type, Shadow Ball by any normal type, HP Fire by Heatran and Bulky waters, Energy ball by anything not a bulky water with a decent SpD stat), making it unsuitable for wallbreaking. I know my answer to Alakazam is always to switch in a special wall, and that itself is a testament to the fact that it's not really a wall breaker.

Tyranitar... I never really understood the reasoning for it as a wallbreaker in the first place. The CB set isn't going to be breaking through really any physically defensive mons, It's too slow to 2HKO Gliscor with Stone Edge and a plethora of lesser used mons completely wall it, though Skarmory can potentially be 2HKO'd by Stone Edge... but then you just switch to something that resists Stone Edge. The mixed sets suffer horribly from low speed and 4MSS, and Jellicent shuts it down completely with will-o-wisp. The bottom line is although it can run a set to KO virtually any defensive Pokemon, it has no one set that beats enough of them to be Tier 1.

I have my doubts with Haxorus' reliability as a wall breaker due to its fragility, but after looking at the calcs I see only Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Metagross with Air Balloon being able to wall the CB set, and if the sets with SD set up... well you can say goodbye to at least 2 Pokemon if you can't revenge kill it. Of course, that very revenge killing is it's biggest problem; thanks to its fragility, it can usually only take out one wall per a game before being KO'd, which isn't enough for Tier one. However against teams without faster Pokemon and Priority it CAN do it... but that's an awfully specific condition.

I only suggested Latios because I thought it close enough to deserve a vote too; I personally don't believe it's tier 1 material. Again, it is capable of breaking through all the walls around (even ttar is 2HKO'd by Modest choice specs surf with SR), but can only do so in specific conditions, and usually not all in one set. Without Psyschock the blobs wall it, it needs weather to muscle past Sdef Jirachi, Tyrantitar beats most sets too. Tier 2 at least for sure but Tier 1? It's cutting it pretty close.
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Jimera0 - Tier 1 Wallbreakers SHOULD be able to break through walls with a single set, otherwise it's not an all-purpose Wallbreaker. TTar does this via CB. Infernape does not - you can't run 2 sets of Infernape simultaneously, so it will find itself walled by something.

TTar 2HKOs Gliscor after Rocks (even after Protect), whereas Gliscor can only do 60% max with its weak EQ in return. If TTar nails Gliscor with Aqua Tail on the switch, Gliscor loses. The sets that I nominated can break through most defenses or at least severely cripple them. Infernape only gets stalled to death by Latias, etc.

I also don't think the wallbreakers vulnerability to revenge-kills should be weighed into this. These mons are not meant to be Sweepers, they are meant to break walls. Their playstyle is usually hit-and-run. You highlighted Haxorus's vulnerability to RK, but it can easily run a double-dance set to not only break through walls but also sweep. Taunt just facilitates the wallbreaking more than Dragon Dance.

Lucario and Scizor are great wallbreakers that I considered, but they are conditional wallbreakers imo. Lucario without Ice Punch is hard-walled by Gliscor, whereas Lucario without Crunch is walled by Jellicent, Slowbro, Reuniclus, and Mew. SD Scizor has a hard time getting past Tentacruel and even moreso against Jellicent and bulky Gyarados.
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
I guess I don't really understand the distinction between a wall breaker and a sweeper, could you explain it? It seems like a lot of the things that you might call wall breakers could be sweepers as well.

Also Jimera, those 4 pokemon that you mentioned all lose to SD Scizor on the switch in, or at least they can only phase scizor while taking massive damage. Jellicient does win 75% of the time when Will-o wisp hits, or 30% of the time when Scald hits. Pocket got the counters correct, Tentacruel is unbreakable for Scizor in the Rain. Jelli wins 75% of the time and Gyarados though uncommon, can phase it. It should be noted that with Stealth Rock up and Sand Storm, Gyarados would very much prefer to not switch into Scizor as it Swords Dances as it can only hope to use Rest or to phase.
 
Jimera0 - Tier 1 Wallbreakers SHOULD be able to break through walls with a single set, otherwise it's not an all-purpose Wallbreaker. TTar does this via CB. Infernape does not - you can't run 2 sets of Infernape simultaneously, so it will find itself walled by something.

TTar 2HKOs Gliscor after Rocks (even after Protect), whereas Gliscor can only do 60% max with its weak EQ in return. If TTar nails Gliscor with Aqua Tail on the switch, Gliscor loses. The sets that I nominated can break through most defenses or at least severely cripple them. Infernape only gets stalled to death by Latias, etc.

I also don't think the wallbreakers vulnerability to revenge-kills should be weighed into this. These mons are not meant to be Sweepers, they are meant to break walls. Their playstyle is usually hit-and-run. You highlighted Haxorus's vulnerability to RK, but it can easily run a double-dance set to not only break through walls but also sweep. Taunt just facilitates the wallbreaking more than Dragon Dance.

Lucario and Scizor are great wallbreakers that I considered, but they are conditional wallbreakers imo. Lucario without Ice Punch is hard-walled by Gliscor, whereas Lucario without Crunch is walled by Jellicent, Slowbro, Reuniclus, and Mew. SD Scizor has a hard time getting past Tentacruel and even moreso against Jellicent and bulky Gyarados.
Alright, I guess for tier one they shouldn't be walled by multiple mons with one set. Still, I'm going to say that being walled by ONE common wall or TWO uncommon walls with your best wallbreaking set does not discredit you from Tier 1, because then stuff such as Terrakion that is clearly top tier as a wallbreaker would have to be teir 2 because it's walled by Slowbro and Tangrowth. The only pokemon I can think of that can potentially cover all the Pokemon in OU, in every circumstance in one set is Salamence, and even that is shaky with rain taken into consideration.

As for Haxorus and its survivability, I guess I didn't express what I meant well enough. The problem is that its lack of bulk actually hampers its wallbreaking prowess as it hampers it's ability to take down MULTIPLE walls in a single match, which is currently a requirement for a tier 1 wallbreaker. Sure it might get rid of Skarmory, or other steel, but it'll be taking an attack in the process, weakening it enough for another wall to finish it off later on. Still, with Haxorus it's borderline because after doing the calcs I see it doesn't take half health from BB and there isn't a lot else defensive wise that's going to be taking an Outrage or Earthquake and hitting back. I think I might want to revise my opinion for Haxorus, but it's worth noting for other things like say, Rampardos that are outsped by many walls and as such usually fail to take out more than one per a match.

So, should I refine the definition of tier one to include the one common/two uncommon threshold for being walled? Or should we tweak it a bit more first?

EDIT: @ Myzozoa, well the two aren't mutually exclusive. Many wallbreakers can sweep as well, but when it comes to this thread we're looking exclusively at the wallbreaking aspect of their abilities. As such, things like revenge killing, sweeping after the walls are removed, etc. don't play into the decision. All the matters is a) Can it take reliably down most of the walls with one moveset b) Can it reliably break down more than one wall a match (IE if it relies on explosion to take down walls for instance, it doesn't count). That's the criteria at its most basic.
 

Joeyboy

Has got the gift of gab
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Gotta agree with Pocket on Infernape not being a Tier 1 Wallbreaker this gen. Last gen, sure it was probably the best after Salamence but in this gen dominated by dragons and rain (stall :) Infernape doesn't match up. Tentacruel and Latias (already brought up but I'll add emphasis) shut this poor monkey down. Hell with rain up Skarmory will even take Infernape's Overheats etc.

Never thought of Tyranitar as a wallbreaker, in class on my phone atm (oh!) so I can't run a calc but how much is it's Superpower doing to Skarm?

Also I dunno about Alakazam; Chansey and Jirachi tend to not mind it too much. Psyshock isn't doing that much to Chansey is it?
 
Gotta agree with Pocket on Infernape not being a Tier 1 Wallbreaker this gen. Last gen, sure it was probably the best after Salamence but in this gen dominated by dragons and rain (stall :) Infernape doesn't match up. Tentacruel and Latias (already brought up but I'll add emphasis) shut this poor monkey down. Hell with rain up Skarmory will even take Infernape's Overheats etc.

Never thought of Tyranitar as a wallbreaker, in class on my phone atm (oh!) so I can't run a calc but how much is it's Superpower doing to Skarm?
CB Stone Edge does better, around the 49-55% range, and it also outspeeds standard Skarmory with 100 Speed EVs. It certainly can't switch in safely, though one on one it comes down to whether a crit happens before the PP runs out. If you're not using CB you're almost certainly running Fire Blast for anything that could even be considered for Wallbreaking, so Superpower is really irrelevant when it comes to Skarm.
 

Joeyboy

Has got the gift of gab
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Oh yeah duh Fire Blast haha. My bad, so it'd run something like Crunch/Stone Edge/Aqua Tail/Fire Blast?
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I was thinking of Crunch / Stone Edge / Aqua Tail / Fire Punch. Superpower can go over Fire Punch for overall power, but Fire Punch provides more coverage.

Also technically Lucario can be a wallbreaker if it foregoes ExtremeSpeed to run both Crunch and Ice Punch, so it's fair game.

Jimera0, Haxorus has surprisingly good physical bulk; it should be able to find opportunities to force a switch to set up a Swords Dance, too. It's NOTHING like Rampardos.

Also what makes Terrakion different from Infernape is that it only takes very little residual damage to put Slowbro and Tangrowth in checkmate position, especially if Terrakion is CB or SD with Rock Gem / Life Orb. Infernape would require Latias to be in low health (< 50%) to have a chance in taking down. Latias also has Recover, which compounds the problem.

Myzozoa, this is my simple definition of a wallbreaker - a Pokemon that can overwhelm the opposing team's defenses; it serves a purpose to create holes in the opposing team's defenses for your other team's offense to take advantage. It is usually difficult to handle powerful Wallbreakers by defensive means, and the opponent must usually need to rely on revenge killers and residual damage to remove them.
 
Oh yeah, Fire blast would only be used on a mixed set which can also have wallbreaking potential. I know that going mixed it can actually tailor it to break through pretty much any wall in the game pretty much unhindered, providing it doesn't get burned by Jellicent or something. The problem with that is that it can't run all the coverage it needs on just one moveset.

Anyway, I've adjusted the definition for a tier 1 wallbreaker to be stricter, allowing for no more than one or two walls (depending on how common they are) to be able to beat the wallbreaker in question regularly. This allows a little leeway since it's kind of ridiculous to expect a top tier wallbreaker to beat EVERY defensive threat in such a huge metagame, but still sets the bar very high.

Pocket's definition is pretty good. Just remember that a wallbreaker and a sweeper aren't always mutually expclusive; sometimes a sweeper can wallbreak and a wallbreaker can sweep, if the conditions are right or they're just that offensively threatening.

OH and one more thing. I know Pocket about Haxorus, I wasn't suggesting that Haxorus was that frail in my post. Upon review I've realized it's not actually a huge problem for it, certainly not like it would be for Rampardos, and I didn't intend to say they were the same. I was just using Rampardos as an example of how something can fail the "multiple walls" section of the criteria by being too frail/slow/self-destructive, etc.
 
The ultimate wallbreaker...in Gen 3, of course, was Heracross. While a bit less effective nowadays, still a beast that is tough to check. Of course, ScarfCross is a great revenge killer, outspeeding and OHKOing most weaker threats, but as a wallbreaker, something like Guts/Toxic Orb or Band is more appropriate, and that hits HARD. Two 120 BP STAB moves in Megahorn and Close Combat provide most of the punch and give at least neutral hits to many defensive pokemon. Two coverage moves are often Stone Edge, for flying types, and Night Slash/Pursuit, for ghosts. Though not able to kill every wall (most notably Gliscor), Heracross is a versatile and off-balance threat that many teams are unprepared to deal with. Looking through most of the Gen 5 walls, I'd say that a set of

Heracross (M) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Guts
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Night Slash

Is going to be threatening to many of today's walls. The lack of a choice item allows you to switch moves at will, and Heracross's decent base speed allows him to outrun most walls. While I prefer ScarfCross in general, Heracross still serves as a frightening wallbreaker in today's metagame.
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Yea, Heracross is definitely a legitimate wallbreaker. Unlike other Fighting-types, it can bypass bulky Psychic-types with its powerful STAB Megahorn. Heracross does not need to be holding Toxic Orb, though, but it certainly needs Swords Dance to be a fearsome wallbreaker. Gliscor is a safe switch-in, but defensive Gliscors cannot hurt Heracross while it pumps up its Attack.
 
with guts:

252 +2 Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs 252 HP/184 Def Gliscor: 63.84% - 75.14%
Entry hazards damage: 44
After entry hazards: 270 - 310 (76.27% - 87.57%)
2 hits to KO

Edit: Oh wait. why are we using Stone edge???

FACADE!!!

252 +2 Atk Heracross Facade vs 252 HP/184 Def Gliscor: 89.27% - 105.08%
Entry hazards damage: 44
After entry hazards: 360 - 416 (101.69% - 117.51%)
100% chance to OHKO
100 PERCENT OHKO

that said, i recommend:

Heracross (M) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Guts
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Facade

More calcs:

Detailed Result:
252 +2 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory: 106.89% - 125.75%
100% chance to OHKO
Detailed Result:
252 +2 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs 252 HP/224 Def Jellicent: 71.78% - 84.65%
Entry hazards damage: 100
After entry hazards: 390 - 442 (96.53% - 109.41%)
68.75% chance to OHKO
Detailed Result:
252 +1 Atk Heracross Facade vs 248 HP/252 Def Gyarados: 77.86% - 91.86%
Entry hazards damage: 98
After entry hazards: 404 - 459 (102.8% - 116.79%)
100% chance to OHKO
....After a swords dance the whole OU is OHKOed after stealth rocks.... (a layer of spikes helps)
 
Looking back, I agree that Facade is probably a better coverage move on a Toxic Orb set. I've never run a SD Heracross since previous generations because I feel it's too easily revenged, but as a pure wallbreaker that's probably a better set. With Facade as an all-purpose coverage move (and CC for rocks and steels), Hera gets even better.
 
Alright, looks like we've gotten all the nominations we're going to get unless anyone else wants to post another underappreciated shocker like Heracross (seriously, who knew it could hit that motherfucking hard after 1 turn of set up?). As such, I'm starting the voting phase now!

Voting for Tier One Wallbreakers starts now!

So here's the process. Everyone takes the list of nominees below and votes on each Pokemon. You can vote "Yes" for putting it in Tier 1, "No" for not putting it in tier 1 and "Abstain" if you can't decide or don't think you know enough to make a judgement call. At the end of the voting period (A few days, I want at least a dozen or so votes before I stop the voting), I'll tally up the votes and anything with more than 2/3 "yes" from the counted votes ("Abstain" votes are not counted) will be inducted to Tier 1. I'll give a warning of around 24 hours before voting ends.

Now, for reference, this is the criteria we're judging the nominees by:


Tier 1 Wallbreaker: A Pokemon that can break past the vast majority of walls singlehandedly. The few defensive counters of these wallbreakers are also taken down after minimal residual damage or just a little bit of luck. It must be able to take down multiple walls per a match.

You should vote "Yes" if you believe a nominee fits the criteria.

Now, without further ado, here are the nominees, with links to the posts that nominated them!

Nominees:
Salamence
Infernape
Dragonite
Terrakion

Alakazam
Tyranitar
Haxorus

Latios
Hydreigon

Scizor
Lucario

Heracross

So everyone, get voting!
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Just posting to say that Mixed Infernape certainly cannot break through stall and most defensive cores nowadays. It also has 3 very common counter, Tentacruel, Latias and Jellicent, all of which are omnipresent in stall and balanced teams.

This doesn't mean that Infernape can't wallbreak, but it needs more support to do so than it needed in 4th gen. For example NP Infernape in Sun is a fearsome wallbreaker, but first you need to make sure that opposing weather inducers are dead, and that Lati@s are also dead. Then have fun ohkoing Jellicent with Grass Knot, ohkoing Tenta after SR and Spikes, or just 2hkoing him since he cant do a lot back anyway, and ohkoing every single dragon after SR.
 

Knight of Cydonia

I COULD BE BANNED!
Am I too late to nominate something? Don't laugh, a good wallbreaker is SD Gallade (Adamant, Life Orb) with Close Combat, Ice Punch and Leaf Blade can break through most walls. After an SD and with Stealth rock on their side of the field, you are talking defensive gyarados, reuniclus, tentacruel and the UU Psychic type walls that avoid being OHKOd. Every other common wall is straight up KOd. It differentiates itself from Lucario with higher attack and leaf blade. Because it is slow however it will only fit on certain teams that really need physical walls broken otherwise it may be deadweight, and it can't fend off faster foes without shadow sneak. It's not tier one, but it is still good.
 
Salamence Yes
Infernape No
Dragonite Yes
Terrakion Yes
Alakazam No
Tyranitar Yes
Haxorus Yes
Latios No
Hydreigon Yes
Scizor No
Lucario Yes
Heracross Yes
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Salamence: Yes
Infernape: No
Dragonite: Yes
Terrakion: Yes
Alakazam: No
Tyranitar: Yes
Haxorus: Yes
Latios: Yes
Hydreigon: Yes
Scizor: No
Lucario: Yes
Heracross: Yes
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Salamence - Yes
Infernape - No
Dragonite - Yes
Terrakion - Yes
Alakazam - No
Tyranitar - Yes
Haxorus - Yes
Latios - Yes
Hydreigon - Yes
Scizor - No
Lucario - Yes
Heracross - Yes

Infernape cannot break teams with either Tentacruel or Latias without significant team support. Alakazam has trouble against Sableye and Jirachi. Scizor cannot break teams with Jellicent, and to a lesser extent Gyarados and Tentacruel, without significant team support.
 
Salamence - Yes
Infernape - No
Dragonite - Yes
Terrakion - Yes
Alakazam - Yes
Tyranitar - Yes
Haxorus - Yes
Latios - Yes
Hydreigon - No
Scizor - No
Lucario - Yes
Heracross - Yes

Infernape has issues against Rain teams especially consisting of defensive mons like Politoed and Jellicent. Hydreigon cannot fully get past Chansey and Blissey's superior defenses and lastly Scizor falls to Jellicent, Tentacruel and Rotom-W and Gyarados like Pocket mentioned above.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top