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Breloom [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Seven Deadly Sins, Sep 15, 2012.

  1. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    [Overview]

    <p>Breloom's ability roster is the gift that keeps on giving. In Generation 3, it was saddled with poor defenses, a near-worthless ability, and a branding as a bit of a one-trick pony. Granted, it was a neat trick, but it just didn't cut it. Generation 4 gave it Poison Heal, which is everything that it could have ever wanted—status absorption, healing for Substitutes, and a ridiculous amount of healing on Leech Seed sets. However, Generation 5 really turned it up a notch, granting it two boons: a buffed 25 Base Power Bullet Seed, and Technician, which not only gives it a priority attack rivaling Scizor's devastating Bullet Punch, but also a powerful Low Sweep and the aforementioned Bullet Seed.</p>

    <p>As a result, Breloom is one of the gold standards of power in Generation 5. With Technician, Breloom basically 2HKOs the metagame with Choice Band or Life Orb. Technician Bullet Seed has the potential to be literally the strongest attack in the metagame, a 187.5 Base Power attack coming off of 394 Attack. Compounding that is Technician Low Sweep, which gives Breloom a free second attack against many faster opponents switching in. Combine this with Swords Dance, and cap it with Spore and Generation 5's sleep mechanics, and Breloom is a serious force to be reckoned with. And for those with a touch of nostalgia, it's still as threatening as ever with its vicious Poison Heal sets, which can be incredibly tough to crack.</p>

    <p>It's not all roses for Breloom, though. Despite these advances, very little had happened to offset its significant weaknesses. 70 base Speed is a serious problem for it, as there are a number of significant Fighting resistances that outspeed it. Combine that with barely passable 60 / 80 / 60 defenses, and Breloom can be a bit tough to handle. When used well, it's a devastating force. If used carelessly, it can be nearly useless.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Physical Attacker
    move 1: Low Sweep
    move 2: Mach Punch
    move 3: Bullet Seed
    move 4: Spore / Stone Edge
    item: Life Orb / Choice Band
    nature: Jolly / Adamant
    ability: Technician
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>When you talk about terrifying physical attackers in OU, this set is one of the first that leaps to mind. The raw power of an item-boosted Low Sweep is seriously intimidating, doubly so when you consider that Low Sweep rules out a long list of would-be counters by virtue of its Speed-reducing property. Would-be counters like Latios, Tornadus-T, Starmie, and others quickly find themselves unable to do their job when crippled by Low Sweep. Mach Punch gives it a burst of immediate power against speedy threats like Terrakion and Hydreigon, while Bullet Seed gives it the potential of unparalleled power with an attack capable of reaching 187.5 Base Power. Spore caps the set off, as any Pokemon capable of sponging these attacks still has to contend with the threat of sleep, rendering it helpless against Breloom's assaults. On the flip side, if Choice-locked Spore isn't your cup of tea, Stone Edge gives it a way to threaten Tornadus-T immediately on the switch, and also provides excellent neutral coverage alongside its STABs.</p>

    <p>This set comes in two flavors: Life Orb and Choice Band. While Choice Band has the edge in raw power, Life Orb makes up for it with versatility. Life Orb can 2HKO troublesome Pokemon like Starmie with Low Sweep into Bullet Seed, but Choice Band can simply 2HKO Pokemon like Latios as they switch in without a second thought. In general, Choice Band rewards prediction more, while Life Orb is a bit easier to use, and is more equipped to handle unforeseen circumstances.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>With a Pokemon like this, there's little need to get fancy with EV spreads- a simple 4/252/252 will suffice. The choice of nature, however, is a bit more complex. Jolly is most important on the Life Orb set, as it allows Breloom to not only outspeed notable threats like Tornadus-T and Starmie after a Low Sweep, but also gives it the edge against Adamant Mamoswine to beat it out with Mach Punch. However, Adamant gives Low Sweep some much-needed bite, allowing the Choice Band set to secure some much-needed 2HKOs without having to switch moves.</p>

    <p>There are some alternative choices for the fourth moveslot. ThunderPunch is not only the most powerful attack against Skarmory, but it also absolutely obliterates Gyarados. Rock Tomb can operate as an analogue to Low Sweep, catching Tornadus-T and others with a Rock-type attack and then still having the options given by the guaranteed Speed drop. However, its low power makes it unappealing, and the utility of Spore often far outweighs it. Force Palm is an option over Low Sweep, giving Breloom a bit more of a supporting role. While it lacks the reliability of Low Sweep, it gains a 30% chance to paralyze any would-be Breloom counter, crippling them for the rest of the game. Finally, if sustaining Breloom is your primary concern, Drain Punch is an option. While its Base Power increase renders it unaffected by Technician, it's still a STAB 75 Base Power attack, and its healing can be invaluable when up against teams that either stack entry hazards or boast numerous weak attacks for Breloom to come in on.</p>

    <p>This set is easy to fit onto many teams, though Gothitelle is probably its most effective ally. Many of Breloom's primary counters can be dealt with by Gothitelle, and with Shadow Tag providing trapping power, a successful Gothitelle play can make Breloom's life much easier. Breloom also forces a lot of switches, making entry hazards extremely potent. Stealth Rock is a must to help chip away at Tornadus-T with Regenerator, while Spikes can make dealing with Celebi a significantly easier task. Given the raw power of this set, entry hazards can be the difference between a safe 2HKO and an unsafe 3HKO. Finally, some solid Rapid Spin support can be invaluable given Breloom's inability to heal itself. Starmie is a good choice, as it resists Psychic and Fire, and can also sweep if opponents like Latios find themselves weakened or eliminated.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Mach Punch
    move 3: Bullet Seed
    move 4: Spore
    item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    ability: Technician
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While an all-out attacker represents turn 1 dominance, this set provides utterly unparalleled power after a single turn of setup; setup which is easily secured via Spore. After a Swords Dance, Breloom is sitting on 788 Attack. Combine that with a Technician Mach Punch, or an utterly terrifying 5-hit Bullet Seed, and there's very little that Breloom can't break through. Spore makes it easy to set up a Swords Dance, and once it's set up, it's pretty hard to stop.</p>

    <p>Despite being a setup sweeper, Breloom still packs one hell of a punch without the setup. Even if it's hard to get a Swords Dance or Spore in, it still provides the power of a Life Orb Mach Punch, which can mean the difference between life and death when you're staring down the likes of a fully set up Terrakion. Likewise, a Bullet Seed can take down nearly anything if it gets enough hits, and if the opponent is expecting a Swords Dance after a Spore, they can be in for a rude awakening with a little prediction.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This Breloom is all about raw offense, and it's got a spread to match. Maximizing Speed and Attack is crucial to the success of this set, and the Adamant nature is used to secure KOs with Mach Punch that would otherwise be out of reach. Jolly is an option as well, as it works well to hit some faster defensively oriented Pokemon with Bullet Seed, or secure the Spore needed to set up. Life Orb gives this set much-needed power, as it's very much a "kill or be killed" kind of set. However, Lum Berry can open up some options for sweeping where Life Orb wouldn't, especially when the only option for setting up is getting a Swords Dance against something spamming Scald.</p>

    <p>As this set aims to sweep, it is of the utmost importance that faster Fighting resists are eliminated. As always, Gothitelle can be an extremely potent ally, as its high Special Defense can allow it to eliminate some potential threats, such as Celebi, Tornadus-T, Starmie, and Latios. Entry hazards are also once again incredibly important, as even with a Technician boost, Mach Punch is still only 60 Base Power. Deoxys-D is probably the best and most efficient Spiker in the metagame, especially for offensive teams, which are the most likely to use a Breloom set like this one. Finally, U-turn or Volt Switch users can be extremely effective, as they can help bring Breloom in at the perfect time when it is most likely to sweep effectively.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Spore
    move 2: Bullet Seed
    move 3: Force Palm / Low Sweep
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Choice Scarf
    nature: Jolly
    ability: Technician
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While not its most effective set, Scarf Breloom can be quite the potent threat. Boasting the fastest sleep in OU, as well as an incredibly powerful Bullet Seed, Breloom can shut down a number of threats that can otherwise be troublesome to deal with. It can also spread paralysis with Force Palm since Low Sweep's main utility is offset by Choice Scarf, or it can surprise some especially quick foes with Scarf Low Sweep, such as Choice Scarf variants of fast Pokemon like Latios. Finally, Stone Edge caps off its coverage and makes it an effective Pokemon for dealing with and eliminating Tornadus-T and Dragonite.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This set is very straightforward, and it has an EV spread to match. Offense is maximized, and a Jolly nature allows Breloom to outspeed every Pokemon below 130 base Speed, which has dwindled as an important Speed tier. Move-wise, it's also very straightforward. All of Breloom's other move options are rather low power, especially Mach Punch, which is extremely redundant with that Choice Scarf, and there's little else in the movepool that goes well with the set.</p>

    <p>As with every Breloom set, Gothitelle can unlock its true offensive potential by busting through Pokemon that would otherwise counter Breloom. It also appreciates entry hazards, which can help this relatively weak Breloom set secure some important OHKOs and 2HKOs. Other than that, however, this Breloom needs very little coddling, playing much more of a supportive role than other sets.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubSeed
    move 1: Spore
    move 2: Leech Seed
    move 3: Substitute
    move 4: Focus Punch
    item: Toxic Orb
    nature: Impish
    ability: Poison Heal
    evs: 236 HP / 252 Def / 20 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set is a blast from the past. While 60 / 80 / 60 defenses may not seem like the most effective, Breloom's incredible defensive typing makes it more than capable of taking hits from some top Pokemon in OU. Combine this with the buff to sleep in Generation 5, as well as Poison Heal and Substitute, and Breloom can easily prove itself to be far tougher to kill than its stat spread would suggest.</p>

    <p>Spore is a must-have on pretty much every Breloom set, as it is the only 100% accuracy sleep move in the game, and with Generation 5's sleep mechanics, a Pokemon put to sleep often might as well be KOed. Leech Seed goes a long way to bolster Breloom's survivability, allowing it to wear down opponents while simultaneously refilling its own life. Substitute compounds this by allowing Breloom to scout switches and stall out Pokemon affected by Leech Seed. It also works especially well on this set due to the significant healing from Leech Seed and Poison Heal. Finally, Focus Punch rounds out the set. Even though this set has no offensive investment, it still reaches 296 Attack, and when that's combined with a STAB 150 Base Power attack like Focus Punch, it gives a defensive set like this one some vicious power.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The defensive investment on this set makes it surprisingly durable. It can take many U-turns in the metagame with ease, and its resistance to Volt Switch also pays off, making Breloom an excellent counter to VoltTurn chains. 236 HP EVs give Breloom 320 HP, which is divisible by 8, giving it maximum healing from Poison Heal. Defense is maximized, and then the rest is put into Speed.</p>

    <p>This set does have a number of notable counters that need to be eliminated in order to function optimally. Gliscor is incredibly hard to deal with for this set, as Poison Heal makes it immune to Spore and counteracts Leech Seed's damage. It also resists Focus Punch, and takes barely any damage from it. As such, it's important to have a teammate that can either deal with it or lure it in and kill it. Expert Belt Landorus is especially effective as a teammate since it can lure in Gliscor and dispatch it with Hidden Power Ice. It can also deal with another major counter, Celebi, with U-turn. Additionally, Mamoswine sometimes carries Icicle Spear, which will break through the Substitute and prevent Focus Punch from going off.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubPunch
    move 1: Spore
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Focus Punch
    move 4: Seed Bomb / Stone Edge / Facade
    item: Toxic Orb
    nature: Adamant
    ability: Poison Heal
    evs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While the SubSeed set is more defensively oriented, this set is all power. A max Attack Adamant Focus Punch from Breloom is one of the most vicious attacks in the game, capable of OHKOing most anything that doesn't resist it, and even 2HKOing many Pokemon that do. While this set sacrifices durability somewhat, the increased offensive power and additional coverage makes it much more threatening offensively.</p>

    <p>Spore is here as always, as sleep allows Breloom to set up for free while also incapacitating whatever the opponent switches in. Substitute gives Breloom the buffer that it needs to fire off its powerful STAB Focus Punch, and works well with Poison Heal to heal off the damage. Focus Punch turns Breloom's targets into a fine red mist, and is a huge part of why this set is so threatening behind a Substitute. The last move is used to provide coverage and give Breloom a way to attack without a Substitute up. Seed Bomb is secondary STAB, and also allows Breloom to do incredible damage to threatening opponents such as Gastrodon, Hippowdon, and Sableye. It also hits Jellicent, which is immune to Focus Punch. Stone Edge is most notable for eliminating Tornadus-T, but is also effective for taking down Dragonite and Salamence. Facade is the most powerful third option after the boost from poison, and does solid damage to Gliscor, Landorus-T, Celebi, and Latias, but leaves Breloom entirely helpless against Ghost-types.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread on this set is simple. Attack is maximized for optimal damage output, and 12 HP gives Breloom an HP value divisible by 8 for Poison Heal. The rest is placed into Speed in order to allow Breloom to outspeed uninvested base 100s, as well as some uninvested or low-investment mid-speed Pokemon such as Rotom-W, Dragonite, and Heatran.</p>

    <p>As with all Breloom sets, Gliscor and Celebi give this set hell. Expert Belt Landorus is an amazing partner for this reason, as it can potentially lure both of them by bluffing Choice Scarf Earthquake and then dispatching them with Hidden Power Ice and U-turn, respectively. There are also a number of Pokemon that can cause problems depending on the choice of third attack. Without Stone Edge, Dragonite can be a major issue, so pairing Breloom up with something that can eliminate Dragonite is a good idea. Landorus fits this bill nicely, and Bronzong can do the same while also providing Stealth Rock for the team. With Facade, it's important to have a check to Ghost-types, as it leaves Breloom completely unable to damage them. As such, including a strong Pursuit user on your team such as Tyranitar or Scizor can be important.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>While Breloom does pack a bit of a move kiddy-pool, it's still got a couple of useful options. Even with Technician, Superpower is the strongest general use Fighting-type move that Breloom has. However, it can also be a bit of a liability, as it weakens Breloom and renders it more susceptible to revenge killing, as well as forcing it to switch more often. Wake-Up Slap is a cute gimmick, especially with Technician. It's still got 90 Base Power, but when used against a sleeping opponent it gets bumped up to 120. This makes it gimmicky but semi-effective to finish off sleeping opponents quickly, though it's almost always outclassed by both Low Sweep and Force Palm, which provide far more immediate utility. Rock Tomb is potentially usable, but its low 75 Base Power after Technician makes it a questionable choice for any serious set. Finally, there's double powder. While paralysis is incredibly crippling, and Spore does tend to force switches, it's better to leave the powdering to Amoonguss, which is far more cut out for it. Breloom doesn't need to double powder—once it Spores something, it can move on to killing off bigger and better things.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Technician and Poison Heal Breloom have largely different counters, but there are some notable common ones. Celebi is the ultimate counter—not only does it outspeed Breloom, but it also resists both of its STABs, has Natural Cure to heal off Spore, commonly carries Psychic or Hidden Power Ice to dispatch Breloom, and is essentially impossible for Breloom to break down. Along the same lines, Amoonguss is extremely bulky, resists both STABs, and can simply switch out to heal off all of the damage it takes. On top of that, its super effective Poison STAB easily eliminates Breloom. Latias is faster, can hit it hard with Dragon Pulse and Draco Meteor, and resists both STABs. However, it's a bit riskier, as Life Orb variants can use Low Sweep to slow it down for Spore, while Choice Band has a chance to simply 2HKO it with Low Sweep after Stealth Rock. Finally, Gengar is a terror to all Breloom sets, resisting Bullet Seed and being immune to Mach Punch, Low Sweep, and Focus Punch. However, it has to be careful, as not only will Spore ruin its day, but its defenses are fairly low, and enough hits from Bullet Seed can put Gengar down for good.</p>

    <p>On to the Technician-specific counters. Volcarona is one of the most notable ones, as not only does it resist Mach Punch and Low Sweep, but also has a double resistance to Bullet Seed, and can passively burn Breloom with Flame Body. However, Volcarona needs to be especially careful of Spore or Stone Edge after a Low Sweep or on the switch, so it's not foolproof. Mamoswine is faster than Breloom (guaranteed with Jolly) and can outspeed its Mach Punch with a super effective STAB Ice Shard. However, Adamant varieties can be outsped by Jolly Breloom, so when relying on Mamoswine to deal with Breloom, Jolly is a necessity. Tornadus-T is another extremely potent counter, as it not only resists both STABs and can dispatch it with either Air Slash or Hurricane, but it also outspeeds Adamant Breloom even at -1. It can also use Sleep Talk with almost any of its moves to KO Breloom even through Spore. Finally, Skarmory is a semi-unreliable counter. It can deal with Swords Dance variants if need be due to its high Defense, but it can't switch into Low Sweep from the attacking set.</p>

    <p>Poison Heal sets rely almost exclusively on Substitute, and as a result, multi-hit moves can be troublesome. Mamoswine tops this list, as its Icicle Shard can chew through Substitute and cancel Focus Punch for the defensive variant, while it has a chance to outright KO offensive variants. However, if it fails to OHKO, it is in danger of either Spore or Seed Bomb from the offensive version. Gliscor is extremely troublesome, as Poison Heal variants are immune to Spore and take a pittance from Focus Punch and neutral Seed Bomb. Tornadus-T makes another appearance here due to Sleep Talk, though Stone Edge from the offensive variant can cause problems. Finally, Tentacruel is trouble for the defensive set due to Liquid Ooze. While it can't exactly take Focus Punches all day, it can whittle away at Breloom with its own Leech Seed or Rapid Spin it off, and its resistance to Focus Punch does give it much more of a fighting chance.</p>
  2. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    No dedicated Swords Dance set? I know pure SD Breloom is getting stopped by stuff like Tornadus-T easily, but it still has good resistances to a lot of Pokemon. The particular set I've been thinking about is:

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Mach Punch
    move 3: Bullet Seed
    move 4: Spore / Stone Edge
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Adamant
    ability: Technician
    evs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe

    This plays a bit like bulky SD Scizor, but instead of checking Dragon-types, you're setting up on slower Pokemon that are on rain teams (or just bulky Waters/Grounds/Ferrothorn in general). With the bulk investment, Breloom can take a hit or two with its good resistances and actually not get OHKOed by virtually everything. With the amount of bulk invested, you can start taking some unboosted attacks like Ice Beam from non-LO Starmie, Scarf Haxorus's Outrage and stuff like that. It is especially painful to a lot of rain stall teams that don't carry a lot of speed. This is pretty much the SD Breloom variant I use all the time now, and it's always been fairly effective. 24 Speed EVs let you outspeed maximum speed Wobbuffet.

    Apart from that, there are a couple of other things I'd like to address:
    - Bulk Up - I see no mention of it at all in the analysis. Sure, Technician is like 10x better and Tornadus-T rips you to shreds, but we can't forget that this set WAS like the standard set in BW1, and should at the very least get an OO mention, right?
    - Jolly > Adamant on the first set, IMO. Without a Jolly nature, you are still being outsped by Tornadus-T after it gets hit by Low Sweep, which is kind of undesirable, IMO.
  3. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    I really don't agree with the current first set. For one, I think Swords Dance Breloom and CB Breloom merit completely different sets. They play very differently and I don't really see much reason to lump them together into one set. I'd split up the sets as so:

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Mach Punch
    move 2: Spore / Low Sweep
    move 3: Swords Dance / Low Sweep
    move 4: Bullet Seed / Stone Edge
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Mach Punch
    move 2: Bullet Seed
    move 3: Low Sweep / Spore
    move 4: Stone Edge / Spore
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    Mach Punch should definitely be the first slot on both sets. I don't think I've ever seen a single Technician Breloom that didn't run it. I'd also like an AC mention of Fight Gem Breloom, which was pretty popular in Dream World for that extra kick it gave Mach Punch after a Swords Dance.
  4. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Don't have time for a full post, but...

    Note that in no place is Mach Punch slashed. Just because a move isn't slashed doesn't mean it has to be first...
  5. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    Yes, but I'd argue that Mach Punch is Breloom's most important move in those sets and should therefore be the first move listed.
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Where is the Bulk Up set? It should be added, and is better than some other sets such as Scarf or SubSeed that are there now.
  7. Cerulean21

    Cerulean21

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    I fully agree with alexwolf. Bulk Up is one of Breloom's best sets, imo. It can tear apart entire teams if played correctly and works well against sand, rain and stall teams.
  8. Leonheart

    Leonheart

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    I think SD Technician is better, but I have to try Bulk Up set.
  9. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I don't want to make a full post either, but in short:

    - You made a mistake with those defense evs on SubPunch.
    - You need to separate CB from the Life Orb set, and possibly separate low sweep and SD too.
    - I don't see why Stone Edge can't be used over SD / Low Sweep rather than Spore. Surely Spore is a given?
    - BU Breloom has always been a mistake in my opinion. Use any other poison heal set with the bulky spread if you want a bulky breloom (subseed, subpunch, even SD lol). OO please.
    - Fight gem is really quite common so you need to mention it whether or not you think it's terrible (even if that's just to say it's terrible).
  10. Husky

    Husky

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    If the physical attacker gets split into Offensive and a Choice Band set, I strongly suggest making Jolly the main slash on the Choice Bander. It allows Breloom to outspeed and safely 2HKO Tornadus-T with Low Sweep when it switches into the first one, regardless if Stealth Rock is up or not.

    @Scarf set: I really don't see much use of that. Breloom gets over its not-that-amazing base Speed with Mach Punch, so faster opponents aren't that much of a problem. It just doesn't have the stats and typing to be an amazing revenge killer like.. say.. Salamence.

    Poison Heal sets seem fine I guess, but you should mention Icicle Spear users (Mamo and Cloyster) also as checks in AC's there.

    Oh.. and I wouldn't call Gengar exactly threatening to the Life Orb set. Its Substitute will break after the first Bullet Seed hit and 3 more hits KO it, even though Gengar restists it.
  11. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    I may split off Swords Dance, but Choice Band is not getting split from Life Orb. It's not happening.
  12. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    Care to explain why?
  13. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Especially since they function completely differently from one another...
  14. Shnoogle

    Shnoogle

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    evs: 12 HP / 252 Def / 244 Spe

    On the last set (subpunch) I think you meant 252 attack evs
  15. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    i don't normally post much in C&C but i have been playing full stall with a breloom so i thought i'd chip in.
    i am gonna throw in my agreement on this. bulk up breloom is really really difficult to get set up. breloom's bulk is frankly crap - in fact, all its stats are crap, except its attack. that means you will basically never ever set up against offensive teams. they'll all hit way too hard, too fast, and force you out quickly. if you do get boosted you can hit quite hard on the switch, but EVERYTHING checks you because you're so slow, and there's no shortage of special fire/ice attackers running around.

    you just can't get the right set with bulk up breloom - if you don't invest in sdef, you can't come in on stuff like hydro pump, but if you don't invest in speed, the list of things that check you grows even longer (and let's face it, breloom is so freaking slow that the list is pretty long no matter what you do). it would be nice to run mach punch because if you have boosts the check list gets much shorter (boosting sets can do it - just look at conkeldurr) but that means you have to drop either drain punch (no quick recovery when boosted up, and generally less power on the switch) or seed bomb (lol mono fighting. also this means you lose breloom's ability to hurt bulky waters which is a crucial niche on any set). you can't drop spore because if anything that's the most important move breloom even learns. only cbLoom has an excuse to drop spore because it has another cool niche which is stab technician low sweep (trivia: the only other mon with this niche is hitmontop) - and even then, there are people who run choiced spore because spore is that freaking good. now you have like 5 or 6 moves to fit onto one set, and unlike mons like infernape where the 4mss is mostly a question of coverage, breloom NEEDS all of them.

    bulk up breloom does work against defensive/stall teams because they give it more opportunities to get set up. however that is true for all setup mons - obviously you'll have an easier time getting set up against defense than against offense. sub sets can perform just as well, or better, against those teams. sub sets should generally run focus punch and that can really mess up a stall team that's not running enough phazers - focus punch mindgames can be crushing if the stall player makes even one wrong move. it's like a pseudo taunt, almost - if you try to set up, maybe i'll smash you in the face with focus punch, but if you try to attack me, you still accomplish relatively little because of poison heal. the sub still lets you use defensive teams to your advantage better than bulk up does. either way you can get phazed, and either way you're status immune, but sub means you can force a switch and deal some damage before you have to get out - as we all know, it buys you a turn and eases prediction. bulk up does neither unless you have accumulated several boosts - not an easy task. subs are easily broken from a mon like breloom, even for defensive teams, but you'll still at least get some work done before you have to get out.

    defensively, breloom's greatest strengths are a really interesting typing (resists water, electric, and freakin edgequake), poison heal (status immunity, and much faster recovery than guys like virizion as a result) and spore. these traits lends themselves best to substitutes, but breloom has no room to run sub, spore AND setup, and as i said, i think sub>setup. i'm not so sure about subseed breloom, but in general, i would rather run sub than bulk up. you can come in on volt switches and scalds all day and sub up, and even against volt-turn, the uturns are only 1x effective and get buffered off by your sub. in addition sub lets you play breloom in a pivoting fashion a bit better than with bulk up. i submit that defensive pivot breloom is outclassed by amoonguss (hence i am testing amoongus on my full stall team right now), but breloom's typing lends it REALLY well to pivoting because it has just the right resistances - grass, water, and edgequake - and conversely a lot of key weaknesses - fire, ice in particular. subbing up is often more useful than bulking up when you force those switches because the types that break breloom the most easily are special attacks that will sneer at the +1 def of bulk up. finally a lot of mons have water+ice/electric+ice coverage and sub lets you check for an ice attack more safely.

    bulk up just can't do the job right now if you ask me. i have never been able to get breloom to stay in for a prolonged period of time without my opponent making an obvious mistake. if breloom could set up quickly it would be doable, but when it needs 2-3 boosts to become a real threat, i just can't pull it off reliably enough because it ends up giving too many free turns to my checks - either i boost on the switch and they outspeed for the kill, or i don't boost on the switch and as a result i don't hit hard enough to stop the threat unless i get an SE hit. if i had been running sub all these situations would have ended the same way - instead of breloom being killed on the spot, i sub on the switch, the sub breaks and i drain punch (earning back the cost of my sub and then some if the opponent is frail, and if they're bulky they might even underspeed me so i can hit or sub again), and then i switch, having accomplished plenty in that time. i have only gotten set up once against an offensive/balanced team, which was when my opponent made a misplay and stayed in with a gliscor, thinking he could hurt me with uninvested ice fangs. he should have switched in his ninetales immediately - the chance of me drain punching with a gliscor in my face was incredibly low, and that unboosted drain punch dealt max 53% on his tales so he could have killed me with flamethrower right then and there. that was an OBVIOUS mistake - in other words, the only thing that has earned me more than one bulk up at a time to this day.

    i think the final nail in the coffin for bulk up breloom is that it will never sweep. setup mons need to accomplish something in the long run by staying in and a one-to-one trade (at best you set up and kill something on the switch, then your check comes in and out ya go) is not good enough to justify the slot. some things can actually sweep with moves like cosmic power (eg sigilyph) or abuse the defense by toxic stalling. fast mons like espeon or garchomp have always had the option of setup even though they have no speed boosting moves, because they're fast enough already. but a slow guy like breloom? it's just not going to happen. CM latias has enough speed to end a game if it gets set up; breloom never will - not without mach punch, at least, and we all know techniloom does that set better.

    DISCLAIMER: my experience is limited and i might just be playing like an idiot (when i started using poison heal breloom, i accidentally switched it into twaves like a retard...). i'm trying to make bulk up breloom work right now but it is not cutting it for me. i'm therefore open to any counterpoints because i DO want breloom to work (but amoonguss is looking real good right now)
  16. ace combat

    ace combat

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    Choice Band and Life Orb play completely differently; on one set Spore is a very viable move and is part of what defines Breloom and on the other you are hitting hard and then switching out. What you are doing is combining Choice Band Terrakion with Sub SD Terrakion. Choice Band Terrakion is meant to come in, hit hard, break down walls, and then switches out. Sub SD Terrakion come in, sets up, and then sweeps. I can make the same comparison with CB Scizor and SD Scizor, which it probably a closer comparison. CB Scizor can come in, revenge kill or hit hard and then switches out. SD Scizor uses its powerful attacks and priority to sweep the other team. If those Pokemon merits different sets then of course Breloom should have its Life Orb and Choice Band set split. Life Orb comes in, Spores the opponent, then sets up and uses its priority sweep the opposing team. Choice Band comes in, uses the fear of the set being Life Orb to cause a switch, and breaks down its normal counters and other walls. I understand if you don't want a Bulk Up set because with the metagame shift to BW2 Volt-Turn got Genesect to kill Breloom. (Bulk Up was specifically made to counter volt-turn and now it can no longer do that) I am really questioning the viability of the Choice Scarf set because yeah sure you can get one surprise revenge kill, but I can do the same thing with Mew or Ninetails, which are arguable better because of their speed stats and the fact they can hit Pokemon like Dragonite harder, but they don't get Choice Scarf sets. The other thing that makes the viability of the Choice Scarf set questionable is that besides the fact that Breloom don't really have the attacks to be a good revenge killer (grass is pretty shitty for revenge killing), he has Technician Mach Punch, which is going to be hitting just as hard as Low Sweep on the CB set. And in case you did not know, the first move on a Pokemon's set is supposed to be the Pokemon's most important move, and for Breloom that move is going to Mach Punch, and therefore it should be the first move listed (Which also means for the Choice Scarf set that Spore should be the last move listed since you have to switch out after you use it, but I am not sure the Choice Scarf set is going to be considered viable anyway, but that is for QC to decide).
  17. LizardMan

    LizardMan porn director lizardman
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    BU Breloom was fine in BW1 and wasn't a mistake. It was the most popular set for a long time near the end of BW1. Bulk Up made you harder to revenge from Terrakion among other things for example. It played differently.

    As for BW2, I am unsure. I haven't used it enough, but it probably is a bit outdated.
  18. Blueprint

    Blueprint

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    Life orb and Choice band play completely different so I wouldn't slash those two together and make separate sets. Choice scarf is sub par and shouldn't be here, maybe OO. Bulk up is more viable then the scarf, but I'm not sure either are very good in bw2. I'm sure you meant 252 in attack on the SubPunch, set instead of 252 defense.

    Gliscor is not a counter to the SD or CB sets anymore. Most common Gliscor set is 252hp/184def w/ EQ/Protect/Toxic/Sub. After +2, Loom 3hko's this set with Bullet seed and Gliscor can only do 25% with Earthquake to a 4hp/0def Breloom.
  19. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    I talked with QC, and after some heated discussion, we decided Swords Dance would be split off but LO and CB would remain the same.

    Really, there's not much difference between the two sets- they both want to spam Mach Punch and Low Sweep, CB just doesn't have the option of Low Sweep -> Spore or Low Sweep -> Bullet Seed, but it doesn't need it much of the time since its Low Sweep is so absurdly powerful.
  20. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I wasn't present during said discussion, but OK. As long as you separate SD from CB it's all good.

    Split those sets and correct that error on the subpunch set's evs, and I'll happily approve.
  21. asterat

    asterat

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    Physical attacker @ life orb
    Adamant nature
    252 Atk/252 Spe/4 SpD
    -Bullet Seed
    -Mach Punch
    -Spore
    -Swords Dance/Low Sweep/Stone Edge
    I think that is the set to use. Tobes had a good set with the mistake being slashitis.

    Choice band @ choice band
    Adamant/Jolly Nature
    252 Atk/4 SpD/252 Spe
    -Bullet Seed
    -Mach Punch
    -Low Sweep
    -Spore/Stone Edge
    CB set IMO.

    On BU: The purpose of that set was to beat scizor/rotom/landorus/other standard stuff teams. With genesect replacing scizor in volt turn it is less effective, not to mention sheer force landorus can still nuke it. Genesect can come in grab a SpA boost and annihilate with flamethrower. Landorus can do the same with focus blast or psychic. The rise of tornadus is another factor that pushes it down
  22. Joel

    Joel

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    Might I suggest Rock Tomb over Stone Edge?

    After the Technician boost, you are getting nearly the same power out of it, same accuracy, and it can be very benificial to get a dropped stat on your opponents speed. The speed drop does happen 100% of the time (as long as it hits).

    Could be very good versus faster switch ins that might think they can outspeed Breloom, and hits Dragons hard since niether of Breloom's STAB attacks do anything worth mentioning to most Dragons.

    *EDIT*

    Quick damage calcs.....

    LO Tech. Breloom Rock Tomb, Versus 4/0/0 Def Latias: Damage: 140 - 166 of 302 HP 46% - 54% (2HKO after Stealth Rock, and will outspeed a non-scarfed variant after the switch.)

    Same, versus Salamence: Damage: 280 - 332 of 332 HP 84% - 100% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)

    Same, versus Bulky Dragonite (with Multiscale in tact): Damage: 122 - 144 of 386 HP 31% - 37%

    Same, versus Bulky Dragonite (Multiscale broken) Damage: 244 - 288 of 386 HP 63% - 74% (Outspeeds, and 2HKOs with no Multiscale, but beware of Choice Band ExtremeSpeed)

    Same, versus Gengar: Damage: 176 - 209 of 262 HP 67% - 79% (Outspeeds and 2HKOs) (Not a Daragon, but usually bothersome for Breloom)

    The Damage Calculator I used
  23. giggity69

    giggity69

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    Sub seed is definitely not brelooms primary set, anymore.
  24. Husky

    Husky

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    @Joel: Even when taking Technician into account, Rock Tomb isn't even close as powerful as Stone Edge (75 to 100 isn't exactly "nearly the same" to my eyes..). It already gets the ability to drop the opponents Speed stat by using its far more powerful and even STABed Low Sweep. Indeed, Rock-type coverage helps it to deal with Dragon-types more reliably, but since your calcs assume you attack on the switch-in (am I right?), don't you think that a higher chance to land a critical hit is far more useful here than just reducing their Speed?
  25. Joel

    Joel

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    Yes, all of my calcs assume a switch in, however, on my Rock Tomb suggestion, I do believe what I undestand as as a 10% crit ratio as oppossed to a promised 2HKO with a speed drop on some key Pokes that usually check Breloom, you get an 80% chance (judging by the accuarcy of Rock Tomb), I would be willing to take an 80% chance (accuracy + speed), over a 10% chance (crit. hit).

    There is another fact of getting that speed drop, as well. With Breloom's 70 base speed, you would get hit twice if they resist Mach Punch. With Rock Tomb + Technician, if you can get that speed drop, you can score a 2HKO, bar the priority attacks.

    I am not seeing any KO's Rock Tomb would be missing over Stone Edge, and I believe the benifits of Rock Tomb + Technician are far greater than those of a 10% crit. hit ratio from Stone Edge.

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