Breloom [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Seven Deadly Sins, Sep 15, 2012.

  1. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    The thing that I see about Rock Tomb is this: if you nail something on the switch and lower its Speed, you get to hit it twice instead of once like you would with Stone Edge, as it's highly likely you now outspeed whatever they sent in. Doing the math there, Rock Tomb's (75*2) 150 base power is a lot greater than Stone Edge's 100. Joel touched on this, but I'm showing the math. A mention at the very least of Rock Tomb, if not a slash instead of Stone Edge, would be a good thing.
  2. Husky

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    ...you know that Technician boosts moves by "just" 1.5, don't you? Rock Tomb has base 50 and Technician boosted, it hits said 75 base power. I really don't know where you got that x2 from, but I'm curious to hear that ;3
  3. Biosci

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    He got the x2 from saying that if it hits twice, then it out damages Stone Edge. He knows about the Technician boost making it 75, that's why he multiplies 75 by 2.
  4. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Rock Tomb is in OO because it's terrible. It's unSTAB 75 base power with 80 accuracy, and hitting twice with it is a 64% chance, which is far from reliable.
  5. Joel

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    I still think it may be the better option, still, though. Look at it like this.

    Stone Edge has the same chance of hitting twice. Both combined being 64% accuracy.

    Stone Edge has only a small chance (albait slightly better chance) of getting a crit. Between two hits with Stone Edge, you are still looking at only a 20% (roughly) chance of hitting for a crit.

    With Rock Tomb, you still have the same 64% accuracy, to hit twice in a row. However, the speed drop in consistant, 100%of the time.

    I have already calculated the KO's you will get with Rock Tomb (speed drop factored in) versus Stone Edge. I am not seeing any key KO's Breloom would be missing no matter which choice was made between Stone Edge and Rock Tomb, however, there are key KOs that are relivant that you will gain with Rock Tomb That you simply won't get with Stone Edge without a crit. (rely on luck if you want to, I guess).

    The only KO that stays the same is versus Salamence, but I am guessing a competent battler would risk switching that in on Breloom since it has a decent chance of running a Rock type move.

    I have shown the key KO's Breloom gains, and people have agreed it to be superior to Stone Edge, as seen in previous posts here. Can you let us know it notable KO's Breloom gains with Stone Edge?

    I am guessing if you can, they are versus Pokes that have no reson to come in versus Breloom in the first place.

    I'll take a 64% chance of a 2HKO that can't be outsped over a maybe 20% chance for a lucky crit, myself, any day of the week.
  6. shrang

    shrang OM OM OM
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    My problem with this is, that you'd get the Speed drop with Low Sweep anyway. Even if Low Sweep is not very effective against a Pokemon you'd want to hit with Stone Edge/Rock Tomb, when combined with Stone Edge, you're still doing more than 2 Rock Tombs. So basically:

    NVE Low Sweep + Stone Edge = 60 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 2 + 100 = 167.5
    2 Rock Tombs = 2 x 50 x 1.5 = 150

    So basically, the only Pokemon that you're better off against is Gengar, which admittedly is pretty important, but otherwise, Low Sweep + Stone Edge is always better.
  7. Joel

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    That does make since, I admit, but what if there is the case you want priority on a Life Orb set? Do you run two fighting moves for this, being Low Sweep + Mach Punch plus eith Bullet Seed or Stone Edge, or do you go with coverage from the begining and just use Rock Tomb?

    You just sold me on Low Sweep + Stone Edge on all sets except a Life Orb set, where I still believe Rock Tomb to be the better option due to all around coverage for Breloom.

    With success, I have been running a set that looks like this....

    Breloom @ Life Orb
    Nature: Adamant
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk/252 Speed/4 HP
    Moveset:
    -Spore
    -Mach Punch
    -Bullet Seed
    -Rock Tomb

    With this set using Life Orb, you get amazing coverage, very nice power, and you still get the speed drop that otherwise Low Sweep could provide, however, with Low Sweep, you are missing out GREATLY on a needed coverage move. Rock Tomb serves both rolls on the Life Orb set.
  8. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    While I note the calcs you provided, Shrang (other than Choice Band where it doesn't matter thanks to move-lock)on what set do you run both Stone Edge and Low Sweep? Stone Edge is slashed over Spore on the LO/CB set because it's intended for Choice Band where Spore isn't as useful. It may just be me, but Spore is kinda what makes Breloom, Breloom. Low Sweep and Rock Tomb are, for the LO set at least, the same slot since Spore, Mach Punch, and Bullet Seed are almost mandatory for Technician Breloom.

    However, with that calc'd out though, I'd bet that thing of Shrang's could be justification for replacing Spore on the LO set, and probably should get mentioned, even if the threat of Spore is greater than the threat of Fail Edge.
  9. Pocket

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    This analysis still needs some work:

    ~ Teammates section needs to be buffed more. Explain why Gothitelle is a good partner for Breloom. Here are Breloom's counters - Celebi, Amoonguss, Latias, Skarmory, Dragonite, and Gengar. How does Gothitelle play a role here? Mention other teammates, since not all teams can afford to spend a team slot on Gothitelle.

    ~ Overall needs more mention of Amoonguss, imo

    ~ Move SubPunch set over Scarf set: I've never faced a Scarf set, while SubPunch set is deadly.

    SubSeed set
    ~ remove the mention of Excadrill, and replace it with a more relevant Pokemon. Can't think of one atm..
    ~ Mention how Landorus-T's Intimidate can kill Breloom's FPunch power, and it can simply U-turn to shrug off Leech Seed.

    • Include a teammate that can handle Landorus-T (EB Landorus?)

    Sub Punch Set
    ~ Max Atk not Max Def
    ~ Seed Bomb for Jellicent, Gastrodon, Hippowdon, and Sableye
    • Stone Edge for Tornadus-T
    • Facade hits Gliscor, Landorus-T, Celebi, and Latias hardest, but mention how it cannot touch ghosts

    Checks and Counters:
    ~ Downplay Gliscor as a counter, since it doesn't enjoy taking Bullet Seeds iirc?
    ~ Needs more mention of Amoonguss, Latias, Skarmory, and Dragonite
    ~ Mention checks like Mamoswine, Latios, Tornadus-T, and Volcarona
    ~ Downplay multi-hit moves, since the main set is now TechLoom, not SubPunch; emphasize Mamoswine's priority Ice Shard over Icicle Spear, etc.
  10. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    These are all solid. I'll implement those in the next couple days (prolly wednesday)
  11. BKC

    BKC sorrow flew on black wings
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    I think you could slash in Protect + Drain Punch over Substitute + Focus Punch on the Leech Seed set. The former is really useful for many reasons; whenever you face two really common leads, Rotom-W or Politoed, you can activate your Toxic Orb safely without fear of being burned by Will-o-Wisp / Scald respectively. It also helps you gain Poison Heal and Leech Seed recovery while scouting Choiced mons. As for Drain Punch, I like it over Focus Punch for not only extra healing, but also because it's a good STAB move that doesn't require a Sub up for it to work. I also prefer a full Specially Defensive spread, as it lets you do some pretty great things like live an Ice Beam/Flamethrower from the ever-common Genesect lead so you can Spore it, while switching into Politoed/Rotom-W more comfortably. It can even do cool stuff like live a Life Orb Hidden Power Ice from Thundurus-T with 30% to spare. My two cents.
  12. Husky

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    Life Orb Adamant Technician Bullet Seed vs 4 HP/0 Def Gengar: 25.19% - 29.77% (4 strikes = clean OHKO)

    I wouldn't call Gengar a counter by any means. Most Gengar try to set up a Substitute when switching into Breloom, so Breloom is most likely able to remove Gengar's Sub instantly potentially OHKOing it, before Gengar can actually do some work.
  13. Joel

    Joel

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    If someone would take my suggestion about putting Rock Tomb on the Life Orb set, it is a clean 2HKO on a switch in, without question (no need to chance Bullet Seed hitting 4 times).

    Same can be said for Dragonite if it switches into rocks. Clean 2HKO. You have a roughly 75% chance to 2HKO Dragonite even without rocks in place on a switch in.

    Niether Gengar or Dragonite are clean counters or checks for TechniLoom now, and I have already proven this.
  14. Swamp-Rocket

    Swamp-Rocket screw economics!
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    Most Dragonite are beaten by a combination of Low Sweep and Stone Edge. Not a reason to use Rock Tomb.
  15. Joel

    Joel

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    On a Life Orb TechniLoom set, Spore, Bullet Seed, and Mach Punch are staple moves. Rock Tomb becoms the coverage move since LO TechniLoom has FMSS. There isn't room for both Low Sweep + Stone Edge unless you loose one of the three staple moves.

    Low Sweep + Stone Edge is better on the other sets, but not this one, since Rock Tomb gives BOTH the speed drop of Low Sweep, plus the coverage of Stone Edge.
  16. jc104

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    Basically all Dragonite are Adamant, so just use Jolly and Stone Edge and you win. More reliable than Rock Tomb too!

    Also, how is 64% (+ small crit chance if you don't require a 2HKO) "roughly 75%"?
  17. Joel

    Joel

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    No one in their right minds wants the kind of power drop from Adamant to Jolly just to outspeed one Poke. A Poke that will still most likely try to outspeed with ExtreemSpeed anyways. That would be retarded. :evan:
  18. Swamp-Rocket

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    It beats Adamant Mamoswine too.

    You are contradicting yourself - you could use Rock Tomb if you want to beat a whopping two Pokemon (Gengar + Dragonite), or you could be Jolly if you want to outspeed two Pokemon (Adamant Dragonite and Mamoswine). Plus you basically just said that Dragonite is going to just use Extreemespeed if its speed gets lowered, so why would you bother making it slower with Rock Tomb?
  19. Joel

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    Yeah, same could be said for CBMamo's Ice Shard. Besides, even if it can beat even one more Poke that would normally cause it problems, and not loose anything for itself in the process, I'm still not seeing any negatives here by using Rock Tomb.
  20. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Sorry, technical computer issues have come up.

    I'll finish updating this tomorrow.
  21. Joel

    Joel

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    Asked you if I could take this ove in PM's, with no responce.

    I will agree to only add my own biased Rock Tomb suggestion to the Life Orb set if the majority of actual QC accept it, otherwise, I will take the rest of it over as it stands now, and leave my other opinions out of this.

    I want this. May I have it if your PC issues still exist?
  22. MrMew72

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    Why don't we slash Lum Berry as an item?

    Status, mainly burn, screws over Breloom. I haven't read every post, so if this is already mentioned, I'm sorry, but Lum makes sure Loom can't be put to sleep/burned/paralyzed, which is pretty nice, and will allow you to bluff a choice set for a few turns. It may not deserve a slash, but in OO, it definitely does.
  23. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Computer is fixed, back in town, work has resumed, will be updated with writing done tomorrow.
  24. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Made final changes. Notable:

    - Scarf still above poison heal sets since I want to keep the Technician sets and Poison Heal sets separate
    - Physical Attacker and Swords Dance split - Jolly becomes first choice on Attacker to outspeed Tornadus-T after a low sweep and also outspeed Adamant Dragonite and Mamoswine
    - counters will be basically entirely rewritten, listed bullet points for it
    - finally fixed the def -> atk typo on offensive substitute

    This should be ready for final QC checks, but a couple things to ask:

    1: What's everyone's opinion on Shrang's bulky SD set? If it's approved, I'd ask him to write it since I don't have any experience with it.
    2: Fight Gem an item on SD Breloom? Tobes brought it up but nobody followed up. Likewise, Lum on the SD set? Ward off burn / paralysis, making a sweep more possible, but a huge cut to offensive power.

    Also, anything anyone else wants to mention.
  25. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast improsin + bapongbas gg,,,,,,
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    I haven't (knowingly!) faced or used the Bulky SD set, so I can't really comment on it. Several high-profile users have used it well though.

    Fight Gem seems way better on paper than it is in practice, to be honest. Using Gem Mach Punch as a panic button against a problem Pokemon tends to fall flat a lot when the opponent goes to a resist. I can see its merit if you can conceal it long enough to get +2, but imo it shouldn't get more than an AC/OO mention.

    Lum seems nice for the same reasons it's nice on Volcarona and Salamence; worth a mention.

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