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OU Breloom

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by Epikhairz, Jan 8, 2014.

  1. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
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    Kinda on the fence about SD and SubPunch sets :x ok then no it is

    [​IMG]
    Skeleton (open)

    Overview
    ########
    • Technician + great movepool
    • Its Bullet Seed is one of the strongest moves in the game (187.5 BP)
    • Incredible base 130 Attack
    • Base 70 Speed not that amazing
    • Lackluster defenses
    • Spore nerf hampers its utility slightly; Grass-types and Overcoat Pokemon now immune to Spore
    • Its STABs are resisted by top-tier threats in the metagame (Mega Venusaur, Talonflame, Dragonite, etc.)
    • Many common weaknesses to types such as Fire, Flying, and Ice

    Spore + 3 Attacks
    ########
    name: Spore + 3 Attacks
    move 1: Spore
    move 2: Bullet Seed
    move 3: Mach Punch
    move 4: Rock Tomb
    ability: Technician
    item: Life Orb / Focus Sash
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    nature: Adamant

    Moves
    ========
    • Takes advantage of Technician using low BP moves to hit super hard
    • Spore incapacitates a foe and is useful for getting rid of something Breloom or the rest of the team can't handle as well. Also useful for getting check/counter neutered on the switch (unless Grass-type)
    • Bullet Seed is Breloom's strongest STAB attack when Technician is considered. It can also break Sturdy and Focus Sash thanks to being multi-hit
    • Mach Punch is useful STAB priority that also gets a Technician boost. Good for hitting weakened or faster Pokemon and hits quite hard
    • Rock Tomb can get rid of or weaken popular threats like Talonflame or Dragonite on the switch, as well as slowing a few threats down to the point that Breloom can finish them off (Gengar, Latios)
    • Force Palm can be used as another STAB attack Breloom can use if Mach Punch just won't do and Breloom is faster or can take a few hits from the opposition. It is useful for hitting defensive Pokemon like Ferrothorn or Mandibuzz.

    Set Details
    ========
    • EVs maximize Attack and Speed
    • Adamant is recommended for maximum power, though Jolly lets Breloom outspeed neutral invested base 70 Speed Pokemon or tie those with a positive nature.
    • Life Orb maximizes power
    • Jolly can be used to outrun Adamant Mamoswine so it can Mach Punch before taking an Ice Shard, but it doesn't outspeed much more than that
    • Focus Sash can be used to guarantee a Spore early-game
    Usage Tips
    ========
    • Since Grass-types are immune to Spore, if you anticipate one of them is going to switch in, use a Fighting-type attack, or a coverage move if it resists Fighting.
    • Using Spore on a predicted switch-in to a check or counter that isn't Grass-type is a great way to clear the path for a Breloom sweep
    • Using Rock Tomb on a predicted switch-in slows the opponent's Pokemon, sometimes to the point where Breloom can outspeed and finish it off (in cases which it can't KO otherwise)
    • Spore is also useful for neutering checks and counters of a teammate you are trying to support
    • Used mostly mid-game for breaking walls or early-game to fire off a quick Spore and break things
    Team Options
    ========
    • Fire-type or teammate with Fire-type moves to get rid of Grass-types immune to Spore. Heatran is especially good because it resists Flying, as well as x4 resisting Ice and being immune to Poison.
    • A counter for Mega Venusaur, such as Latios, is recommended as it can take all of Breloom's STAB attacks and hit it super-effectively with Sludge Bomb
    • Stealth Rock setters to chip away at Fire- and Flying-type threats who have an easy time against Breloom
    • Rock-types to take care of the above
    • Hippowdon takes care of Aegislash, Dragonite, and Talonflame
    • Excadrill is immune to Poison and can switch into all of Breloom's weaknesses bar Fire due to handy resistances.

    Leech Seed
    ########
    name: Leech Seed
    move 1: Leech Seed
    move 2: Drain Punch
    move 3: Protect
    move 4: Rock Tomb / Spore
    ability: Poison Heal
    item: Toxic Orb
    evs: 252 HP / 196 SpD / 60 Spe
    nature: Careful

    Moves
    ========

    While the first set's focus was to hit as hard as possible, this set takes a bulkier approach towards using Breloom and attempts to take advantage of its decent support movepool. Leech Seed is essential to this set in allowing Breloom to gain passive recovery each turn, and when that's stacked with Poison Heal recovery, it will make Breloom difficult to take down. Drain Punch is Breloom's primary STAB attack, and provides additional recovery. Of course, Protect is useful not only for scouting, but also to stall with Leech Seed and gain tons of HP, while chipping away at your opponent's HP. Finally, Rock Tomb is used on the final moveset to slow down incoming switches to make it easier for Breloom or a teammate to handle. Spore can also be used instead of Rock Tomb to potentially incapacitate an opposing Pokemon, though Grass-types and Pokemon with Overcoat are immune to it, which will allow Pokemon like Mega Venusaur to switch in easily.

    Set Details
    ========

    For this set, Toxic Orb is the item of choice to take advantage of Poison Heal. The EVs are mostly invested in special bulk to allow Breloom to serve as an effective Thundurus or Keldeo check. 60 Speed EVs are run on this set to outspeed minimum Speed Heatran, since Breloom can't KO it.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    When anticipating a switch, it's usually safe to use Rock Tomb, since it will slow down the incoming switch-in and allow it to be taken down by Drain Punch or another teammate much easier. The same can be applied to Spore if you choose to use that instead, and will render any foe that is not a Grass-type or has Overcoat useless. However, watch out especially for Grass-types, who are immune to Leech Seed and Spore and can switch in on those moves with impunity

    Team Options
    ========

    Because Grass-types are immune to Spore and Leech Seed, Fire-types like Heatran and Talonflame can be great teammates for taking them out. Also, Excadrill's typing lends itself to be an excellent teammate for Breloom as well, as it is immune to Poison and resists all of Breloom's weaknesses bar Fire. Finally, hazard setters like Skarmory or Landorus-T will force anything coming in to take a chunk of damage; Stealth Rock in particular is great for chipping away at Fire-types, especially the omnipresent Talonflame.

    Other Options
    ########
    • Swords Dance
    • SubPunch
    • Bulk Up
    • Choice Band
    • ThunderPunch (bypasses Skarmory and Gyarados)
    • Stone Edge

    Checks & Counters
    ########
    • Mega Venusaur (resists both STABs + supereffective Sludge Bomb)
    • Grass-types in general (Immune to Spore)
    • Skarmory
    • Talonflame (as well as Flying-types in general)
    • Dragon-types (Dragon/Flying in particular) such as Dragonite
    • Lati@s (resist, outspeed, KO, neutral to Rock Tomb)
    • Aegislash (resists both STABs - Breloom becomes setup bait)
    • Gengar
    • Volcarona (if no Rock Tomb / Stone Edge)

    Overview
    ########

    One of the things that sets Breloom apart from other physical attackers in the tier is its Hidden Ability, Technician, and Breloom's movepool is seemingly designed to take advantage of it. Its Bullet Seed is one of the strongest attacks in the game, being able to reach up to 187.5 BP, and its priority Mach Punch is insanely powerful when you take into account its base 130 Attack, STAB, and a Technician boost. Breloom can also put an opposing Pokemon to sleep with Spore, effectively taking them out for what is usually most of the match.

    However, despite the insane power that Breloom wields, it definitely has its drawbacks. It has common weaknesses to types such as Fire, Flying, and Ice, and its 60 / 80 / 60 defenses are mediocre at best. One of the moves that Breloom is known for, Spore, has been nerfed significantly, as Grass-types and Pokemon with Overcoat, such as Ferrothorn and Mandibuzz, respectively, can now switch in on it with impunity. The metagame around Breloom has also changed drastically, as new threats like Mega Venusaur and Talonflame resist its STAB attacks and threaten it with their own super effective STAB attacks. Finally, Breloom is extremely slow, and base 70 Speed is quite mediocre in the OU metagame. However, the pure power that Breloom possesses is not to be ignored, and if used in the right hands, it can definitely pack quite the punch for a Pokemon with such stubby arms.

    Offensive
    ########
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Spore
    move 2: Bullet Seed
    move 3: Mach Punch
    move 4: Rock Tomb / Swords Dance
    ability: Technician
    item: Focus Sash / Life Orb
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    nature: Adamant / Jolly

    Moves
    ========

    This set aims to take advantage of Technician and utilize moves that will leave the opposing team extremely worn down. Spore is one of the moves that set Breloom apart from many other attackers, and it could potentially incapacitate a foe for most of the game. It can also be used on a predicted switch to ease prediction, unless a Grass-type or Pokemon with Overcoat are still alive. Bullet Seed is Breloom's most powerful STAB attack after Technician and is useful for breaking through Sturdy and Focus Sash. Mach Punch is a STAB priority move that is useful for hitting weakened or faster foes, and hits really hard after Technician as well. Finally, Rock Tomb is a very useful attack for slowing down anticipated switch-ins for Breloom to take down later; it can hit many common Breloom checks such as Talonflame and Dragonite really hard. Swords Dance can be used over Rock Tomb to allow Breloom to sweep through unprepared teams, as its Attack soars to sky-high levels after a +2 boost; however, its STAB coverage isn't that great and it can get walled by Pokemon like Aegislash, Charizard-Y, and Gengar with relative ease.

    Breloom can also use Force Palm over Rock Tomb as a reliable and more powerful secondary STAB attack if it needs to hit harder than it would with Mach Punch, and this is useful for getting past defensive threats like Ferrothorn. However, Rock Tomb's utility is something that Breloom won't want to give it up.

    Set Details
    ========

    The EVs of this set are maxed out in Attack and Speed to capitalize on Breloom's offensive presence, which is further bolstered by a Life Orb if you choose to run it. Adamant is recommended for maximum power, though Jolly is great for outspeeding major threats like Dragonite or Gyarados. Finally, a Focus Sash is recommended for Breloom to guarantee a hit on an opposing Pokemon with Spore or an attack, though a Life Orb can be used for a bit of extra power.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    This set is one that is mostly used either mid-game to break walls or early-game to fire off a quick Spore and weaken things quickly. One thing that Breloom is very good at is punishing switches. When anticipating a switch, use Spore so that whatever is switching in is put to sleep and can't really do much. However, since Grass-types are immune to Spore, if you predict that one is going to switch in, try using Mach Punch or Rock Tomb. If something slightly faster than Breloom is switching in, it can use Rock Tomb to slow it down, hopefully to the point where Breloom can outspeed the opposing Pokemon and finish it off.

    Team Options
    ========

    A Fire-type or a teammate with a Fire-type move is very useful to have to get rid of opposing Grass-types that are immune to Spore. Heatran is an excellent example of a Fire-type teammate, as it resists Flying, as well as dual-resisting Ice and being immune to Poison. Because Mega Venusaur essentially counters Breloom, a counter to it, such as Latios, is recommended to get it out of the way. A Stealth Rock setter is also a great teammate to have, as it chips away at the opposing team's health and also weakens Fire- and Flying-types, especially the omnipresent Talonflame. Rock-types are also a great choice for directly damaging Fire- and Flying-types. Hippowdon is a bulky Ground-type that can easily take care of Aegislash and Talonflame. Finally, Excadrill is an alternate Ground-type that pairs up well with Breloom, as it is immune to Poison and resists all of Breloom's weaknesses bar Fire and Ice, as well as being a great Rapid Spin user.

    Leech Seed
    ########
    name: Leech Seed
    move 1: Leech Seed
    move 2: Drain Punch
    move 3: Protect
    move 4: Spore
    ability: Poison Heal
    item: Toxic Orb
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
    nature: Careful

    Moves
    ========

    While the previous set was more offensively-inclined, this set takes a more defensive approach towards using Breloom with its excellent defensive movepool and abilities. Leech Seed is the move this set is based upon, and it is great for chipping away at an opposing Pokemon's HP while giving Breloom passive recovery each turn. Drain Punch is Breloom's primary STAB attack, and it provides additional recovery on top of Leech Seed. Protect is a useful scouting move, and it also allows Leech Seed damage to rack up on your opponent while Breloom heals. Finally, in the last moveslot, Spore is used to put a switch-in or opposing Pokemon to sleep. However, Grass-types and Pokemon with Overcoat are now immune to Spore, so that is something to watch out for.

    Set Details
    ========

    For this set, Toxic Orb is the item of choice to take advantage of Poison Heal. The EVs are mostly invested in special bulk to allow Breloom to serve as an effective Thundurus or Keldeo check.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    When anticipating a switch, it's usually safe to use Leech Seed, since Breloom will need all the recovery it can get. However, watch out especially for Grass-types, which are immune to Leech Seed and Spore and can switch in on those moves with impunity. Once Leech Seed is set up, Breloom can stall with Protect if it is not worried about about the opposing Pokemon setting up. Keep Leech Seed on your opponent as much as possible; the passive damage will wear them down over time.

    Team Options
    ========

    Because Grass-types are immune to Spore and Leech Seed, Fire-types like Heatran and Talonflame can be great teammates for taking them out. Also, Excadrill's typing lends itself to be an excellent teammate for Breloom as well, as it is immune to Poison and resists all of Breloom's weaknesses bar Fire. Finally, hazard setters like Skarmory or Landorus-T will force anything coming in to take a chunk of damage, and this is useful since Breloom will be forcing a lot of switches in order to shake off Leech Seed; Stealth Rock in particular is great for chipping away at Fire-types, especially the omnipresent Talonflame.

    Other Options
    ########

    First of all, Swords Dance or Bulk Up can be used to get Breloom to sweep, but it will either get walled easily if it runs Spore, or find it hard to set up without it. A SubPunch set with Toxic Orb and Poison Heal also finds itself walled very easily, with it only using a Grass STAB and a semi-reliable Fighting STAB. A Choice Band set can also be used for lots of power, but Breloom won't be able to access its amazing support movepool and will miss using Spore a lot. Breloom is also prone to being revenge killed due to being extremely slow. Finally, Thunder Punch is an option to allow Breloom to bypass threats like Gyarados and Skarmory.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Grass-types**: Grass-types are threatening to both sets, as they resist Breloom's powerful Grass STAB attacks and are immune to Spore and Leech Seed. Mega Venusaur stands out as one of Breloom's best counters, as its Poison typing allows it to resist both of Breloom's STABs and hit it hard with Sludge Bomb.

    **Fire-types**: Some Fire-types will also find themselves being able to check Breloom. Talonflame resists both of Breloom's STABs and fire off a 4x super effective priority Brave Bird, but it must watch out for Rock Tomb. Without Rock Tomb, Volcarona will also be able to set up Quiver Dance right in front of Breloom.

    **Physically Defensive Pokemon**: Of course, since Breloom is mostly attacking using its excellent Attack stat, physically defensive Pokemon are able to wall Breloom. Examples include Skarmory and Mega Venusaur, with the latter also being immune to Spore.

    **Dragon-types**: Dragon-types are notable for resisting Breloom's Grass STAB, and they also usually come with a second typing that resists its other STAB as well. Examples of this include Latias and Latios, whose Psychic typing help them resist Fighting. Dragon / Flying Pokemon like Dragonite and Salamence also resist Fighting, but they must watch out for Rock Tomb.

    **Ghost-types**: Ghost-types are also good checks for being completely immune to Breloom's Fighting STAB, and many top-tier Ghost-types have an additional secondary typing that allows them to resist Grass as well. Gengar's Poison typing and Aegislash's Steel typing both allow them to accomplish this, and as such they can be very threatening.
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  2. sidakarya

    sidakarya

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    Low Sweep isn't usable as it's now base 65 power. Breloom has Force Palm however, which doesn't have guaranteed effect but has a paralysis chance.
  3. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
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    k changed it thanks!

    looks like im still stuck in gen 5 .-.
  4. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
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    This is QC ready.

    I've tested both SD and SubPunch sets and I'm on the fence about them so if QC says so I can add them quickly
  5. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Actually I'm curious as to why you would run Force Palm on the set over Rock Tomb. Care to elaborate? I'm guessing most of it has to do with it being boosted by Technician.
  6. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
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    you said it yourself. it gets a technician boost and it is more powerful than Mach Punch so if you don't need that Rock type coverage for stuff like Talonflame a secondary STAB is nice to have
  7. Selflessly

    Selflessly

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    Out of curiosity what other pokemons or situations would Breloom require Jolly(As in what pokemons would it be required to outspeed something since from what I'm noticing a lot of mons are going positive attack instead of speed anymore)?

    I think Subpunch is still a valid set, able to ohko Ferro is still pretty nice. Although if running Spore 4th slot all becomes situational since mostly you would run Stone Edge/Seed Bomb/Mach Punch which is all pretty relevant to what Breloom needs.
  8. noivern

    noivern

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    Sticky web abuse ;)
  9. liz7

    liz7

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    Everything will always be slower after a sticky web regardless of nature. So what relevant pokemon do you need the jolly nature for to outspeed against?
  10. noivern

    noivern

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    Not so sure, needs some investigation xD, but it can outspeed grounded base 120s and KO 'em ( Greninja, Weavile, Alakazam ).

    Hmm and also Starmie, and maybe some scarfers or scarfers with wierd EV spreads

    Edit: Also, if you are fearing focus sash on any of the base 120s mentioned above, just use bullet seed, though weavile might have ice shard and have his focus sash intact, which means that you will need to take a hit ( or two if you make a missplay, maybe thinking he is LO and go for the mach punch) though you might also be safe behind a sub at that point or have your focus sash intact
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
  11. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
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    Jolly on Breloom is usually to outrun Adamant Mamoswine, although most Mamoswine tend to run a positive speed nature anyway
  12. Cowtao

    Cowtao

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    Not QC but just some general tips.

    -I'm not exactly sure as to what types of teammates you mean by teammates with Fire-Type moves or Fire-Types in general. Are you suggesting Infernape, Heatran, or Talonflame? Sorry, i'd want a more elaborate explanation
    -Get rid of Stone Edge. It is effectively outclassed by Rock Tomb in terms of Accuracy and Utility.
    -In terms of Usage, when should I use it? Mid-game, Late-game, or as a Lead?
    -Elaboration. I know i'm beating you a bit too hard on the head for this but I just want a more detailed explanation on a lot of things. The Checks and Counters, Set Details, Team Options, etc.

    After that though, everything else checks out good. Hope you can get this written up soon!
  13. Mowtom

    Mowtom

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    What about Power-up Punch? It gets boosted by Technician, and the guaranteed +1 attack sounds nice on paper.
  14. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Don't forget about Overcoat.
    Rock Tomb can do more than just that - it can slow down opponents. This can be very critical when using Bullet Seed to finish opponents off. This can be good for faster threats like Gengar and Latios who are prone to dying by Rock Tomb + 3 Bullet Seed hits.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 169-199 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 156-186 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Actually I think that's why I really question Force Palm - Rock Tomb makes Breloom really scary to even think about switching into it. Look at Bold Zapdos among other calculations:

    252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 224-265 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 195-231 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    (By the way - Foul Play 3HKOes).

    To be fair Technician boosted Force Palm does a lot too but this is where I'm going to say:
    Name some examples.

    I'll get back to this later but where's Skarmory in C&C?
  15. Selflessly

    Selflessly

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    He did added Skarmory
  16. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Duck Hunting Dawg
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    I think breloom's Poison heal sub punch set should get more mention since its sub is a good way to stop its counters (talon,agieslash,chomp) for a turn. While they break its sub, loom could use spore or go offensive and use a full power focus punch. After its poisoned, it wouldnt care about manibuzz's knock off and if your able to predict a roost, its focus punch is able to 0hko it and since your not using swords dance, foul play wont do as much.

    Also, I find excadrill to be a great partner for it since it is not affected by sludge bomb and resists its other weaknesses besides fire. It could switch in on a mega venusaur sludge bomb (or eq if they expect a switcch and its holing a balloon) and hit it hard with a eq or try to flinch with iron head.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2014
  17. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    This is kind of false with the mention of Focus Sash.
    Please no...

    I kind of talked with alexwolf and yeah the Swords Dance and Substitute + Focus Punch sets are too easy to wall / difficult to set up without the reliance of Spore. All I could think of with Swords Dance was this:

    - Swords Dance
    - Mach Punch
    - Bullet Seed
    - Rock Tomb

    Ergo, foregoing Spore to just nuke stuff. And even then:

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 175-207 (48 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Eh...

    Otherwise this looks okay to me.

    QC 1/3
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Slash Force Palm with Spore too, as Mega Venu is everywhere and makes Spore useless, while Force Palm can paralyze M-Venu and make it much easier for your team to take down. Having a strong Fighting STAB is also great vs Ferro, Blissey, Heatran, etc.

    Also, add a Leech Seed set:

    Leech Seed
    ########
    name: Leech Seed
    move 1: Leech Seed
    move 2: Drain Punch
    move 3: Protect
    move 4: Rock Tomb / Spore
    ability: Poison Heal
    item: Toxic Orb
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
    nature: Careful

    I am sure there is a better EV spread, but that's the general idea. Spore is even less effective on this set due to the lack of offensive presence, which means that Pokemon such as Trevenant and Mandibuzz have an even easier time switching on you, while Rock Tomb fucks up a lot of Breloom's common switch-ins and always slows something, which is nice. While this set is easier to switch into than it used to be, it's still one of the best counters to Rotom-W, a good status absorber, and a great staller if the opponent lacks a Leech Seed immune Pokemon. Just pack a strong Mega Venu answer and you are good to go.

    And no to SD. It can't wallbreak, it can't sweep, so what's the point of setting up?
  19. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
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    k i think the Leech Seed set has been fully implemented. Let me know if I'm missing anything!
  20. Unowninator

    Unowninator

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    Why isn't Substitute mentioned in the Poison Heal set?
  21. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Jolly > Adamant
    Being able to outspeed something like Starmie after a Rock Tomb is pretty crucial.
  22. gamer boy

    gamer boy

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    For the main set, I feel that Power Up Punch is better than force Palm for the Attack boosts. Also Breloom's main claim to fame is Spore. There is no reason to not run it.
    Remove mention's of Rock Tomb from the Leech Seed set, and that's if you don't remove it all together. Poison Heal Breloom is better suited to SubPunching this gen as leech seed stall is outclassed for the sheer existence of Talonflame.
    Remove ALL mentions of Adamant from the analysis. leave that for OO as it is outclassed
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  23. tennisace

    tennisace
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    Did you read the other posts by actual QC members and choose to ignore them or are you just spitballing? Adamant allows Breloom to 2hko things like Bold Zapdos and Latios after speed drops from Rock Tomb which is _kinda_ important. There are reasons not to run Spore, mainly because Breloom's main switch-ins are immune. Rock Tomb is useful on the Leech Seed set so that Breloom can outspeed Pokemon it normally can't and get a sub up. Force Palm is useful on the main set to Paralyze Mega Venu / other Pokemon switching in.
  24. gamer boy

    gamer boy

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    ok. but what about my point about Power-Up Punch? should it be slashed?
  25. Unowninator

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    If you want an attack boost, why not Swords Dance?

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