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Bring tha HEAT!

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by B-Zard, Nov 11, 2011.

  1. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Bring Tha HEAT! 4th gen OU


    [​IMG]


    At A Glance
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Introduction

    This was the last team I tested on PO, so I made this RMT as detailed as possible (warning: this RMT is pretty damn long if you compare it to my other RMTs). It's been quite a journey off getting to the team I now have, until finally I had a finished product which fits my bulky offensive playstyle. This team was created like one to two months ago and I began laddering with it. This team did pretty good I think and I was really pleased with this team to use it. I also used some pokes I haven't used before; they're all OU pokes and my next step (if I make a new team) is also using UU pokes to make it a less standard team.

    Game Plan

    The game plan is to lay up as many hazards as possible so I can stall better and maybe getting a late game sweep. I use Azelf as Stealth Rock supporter and Forretress as Tspikes set upper whereas I also use the latter to get rid of opposing hazards. Vappy passing Wishes greatly increases the longevity of my team. I have Softboiled > Wish on Bliss for reliability, but I will come back on that later (see In Depth Analysis). Bliss also helps this team with Twaving stuff so my slower members (Forry, Vappy and Bliss itself) can outspeed Twaved pokes. Scarfed Rotom-W is just to revenge kill stuff and Tricking its Scarf to defensive threats if it is a stall vs. stall match. Rotom isn't meant as a powerhose, instead it depends on residual damage from entry hazards and other teammembers to revenge kill. Ape again is to break through teams with its powerful attacks and maybe getting a late game sweep if things are weakend enough. It has priority to deal with DD TTar and Lucario which otherwise could be problems to my team. Rotom can take on the latter decently but doesn't like coming in on a Crunch. This was some short information about my team. You can see more in the Team Building Process and In Depth Analysis.

    Team Facts

    Zero Pokémon weak to Stealth Rock
    Three Pokémon affected by Toxic Spikes
    Four Pokémon affected by Spikes
    One Rapid Spinner and one spin blocker
    One Status Absorber
    Two Pursuit weaknesses (I know :( )​

    Type Chart if you want to analyze the team:​

    [​IMG]



    Team Building Process
    Team building process (open)

    [​IMG]
    I wanted a pretty damn good lead which is fast, strong, able to lay up rocks and that can take on other leads, especially lead Machamps and Metagorss, so here is Azelf. Many people use it as a lead but it can have many different sets, so mostly it is kinda surprising what move it will use.​

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Next one that came in mind was Vappy, since I did want to make a bulky offensive team like my last two and since I haven't had Vappy in my past teams I decided I wanted to try it out in this team. With access to Wish and Protect/Heal Bell this can be a really good supporter and staller of my team.​

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Yea I needed a poke which could lay up Toxic Spikes and one that could Rapid Spin so Forretress became my next team member. With its good defenses and able to Payback ghost types on the switch this is a pretty reliable Rapid Spinner and entry hazard set upper. It resist Dragon type moves and can come in on most physical attacks (no fire type).
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    With both Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes support I needed a spin blocker off course . I don't know a better poke than Rotom-A to do that. It can have a few special moves (Overheat, Hydro Pump etc.) so you can choose the appliance that fits best into your team. It is pretty fast, especially with a Choice Scarf equipped, and still bulky enough to take hits if you compare it with the low hp stat it has.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Since I kinda wanted to make a stall team I needed another stall member (Rotom-W is Scarfed btw), so I thought Blissey would be perfect since its Fighting weakness is resisted by Azelf and Rotom-W is even immune to Fighting type attacks. Bliss also works great in combination with Forry and can come in on most special attacks.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Well my last team member would be a offensive one, since I didn't want to make a full stall team. I tried out Infernape and it did its job pretty good. As you may might have noticed, I also used Infernape in my last team. I want to note that it would be nice if there are suggestions of using another pokemon than Infernape, especially since I already used it in my last team.​



    In Depth Analysis

    [​IMG]

    *** Lead ***
    Azelf @ Expert Belt
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 8 HP/ 248 Spatt/ 252 Speed
    Timid Nature (+Speed,-Att)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Psychic
    - Fire Blast
    - U-turn

    Description + EVs, Item and Nature:
    Well this is my fast lead which is most of the time very surprising. When people see an Azelf lead in can have a shit load of sets: it can be banded, scarfed + trick, colbur berry and a few more. I mainly chose Expert Belt here just because with it I can KO Machamp with Psychic. I didn't want to go for Life Orb since when I make an attack they see the recoil, meaning they know I have Life Orb. With Expert Belt you don't see what item it is, so I might be choiced in some way. My opponent off course does know that I have Expert Belt (might also be Specs or have a Modest Nature) if I KO Machamp, since without, it doesn't. I have 8 hp ev since with it I can survive a Meteor Mash from Meta in case Fire Blast misses, so I lowered my spatt a bit since I wanted to keep max speed with Timid Nature to speed tie with other Azelfs and Starmie etc.​

    Moves:
    Stealth Rock because Azelf can learn it. It is a pretty damn fast lead and it is almost certain to get rocks up. Fire Blast is for steels not named Heatran, pretty sure it kills Metagross without Occa Berry and normal investment so no strange Meta ev spread like 252 hp, 252 spdef to take special hits better. U-turn so I won't get trapped by radom pursuiters like Ttar and Scizor. Max spatt and max speed for power (duhh lol). I could go for Hasty or Naive nature but I didn't want to lower respectively my defense/spdef since my only physical attack is U-turn. Sometimes I wished I had a Focus Sash but when I see a Machamp or Metagross lead and I kill them with respectively Psychic and Fire Blast it feels so good! Sometimes it is risky, for example when facing a Heatran lead since when I put up rocks up they might Overheat or Fire Blast for the kill, but sometimes you have to take a risk. Good thing is that at least they didn't get their rocks up if they killed me first turn. ​

    This Azelf set also works great late game, since with its high special attack and speed stat it can outrun a lot of stuff and hit with a strong Psychic or Fire Blast. Explosion could work if I am at low health and want to blow up on something annoying like Suicune or DD Kingdra, but to me this is an inferior option to U-turn.​


    Azelf vs. leads (alphabetically) (open)

    [​IMG] Aerodactyl: Psychic Turn one since most will go straight for taunt predicting my Stealth Rock. After that U-turn into something predicting his switch.

    [​IMG] Azelf: Usually Fire Blast turn one to see what set they have.

    [​IMG] Crobat: Psychic turn one I think. It is a pretty bad matchup since they might go Taunt or U-turn doing a lot and switch into something to take the Psychic.

    [​IMG] Dragonite: Don't know yet.

    [​IMG] Empoleon: Haven't seen a lot, but probably switch into Bliss turn one since most will go straight for the attack. When they go for Stealth Rock I just Thunder Wave to cripple.

    [​IMG] Forretress: Not sure Might go Stealth Rock turn one. If they switch predicting fire type attack I will have free rocks. If they go rocks of their own I will go Fire Blast next turn. Or Fire Blast first turn preventing them of setting up rocks/spikes.

    [​IMG] Gliscor: Stealth Rock turn one since I outspeed, preventing me being Taunted. They will probably do the same or U-turn (if they carry it) predicting my Taunt, thinking I will have it.

    [​IMG] Heatran: Bitch. Probably Stealth Rock turn one hoping they don't attack me, if they do they don't have rocks up which isn't bad. If I survive U-turn into Vappy to take the hit and Wish or Roar on their switch.

    [​IMG] Hippowdon: Stealth Rock turn one, Psychic second turn since only thing they can so is Roar and Slack Off and they will probably use Roar second turn.

    [​IMG] Infernape: Stealth Rock turn one. Then U-turn to break the Sash and switch into Vappy to take the hit.

    [​IMG] Jirachi: Just go for Fire Blast. If they Trick me I have a new revenge killer, if they Iron Head me this sucks. Don't want to go into Forry, since they might want to trick the scarf.

    [​IMG] Machamp: Lol, Psychic and hoping they will stay in to eat a Psychic boosted by Expert Belt.

    [​IMG] Metagross: Fire Blast turn one, should kill with Expert belt. Don't want to go for rocks getting hit by MM and killing me with BP.

    [​IMG] Ninjask: Stealth Rock turn one since they will probably use Protect. X-scissor does 92.8% - 110.6% so it might be risky to use Stealth Rock on the first turn. After that switch into Vappy if I choose Roar into second slot.

    [​IMG] Roserade: Don't know yet.

    [​IMG] Smeargle: This sucks. Probably U-turning since I don't want it to be asleep. Might just go for Stealth Rock and go into Vappy to wake it up with Heal Bell (if I choose it in second slot). If it outspeeds me I know it is Scarfed.

    [​IMG] Skarmory: Not sure, might go Stealth Rock turn one. If they switch predicting fire type attack I will have free rocks. If they go rocks of their own I will go Fire Blast next turn. Or Fire Blast first turn preventing them of setting up rocks/spikes.

    [​IMG] Swampert: Stealth Rock turn one then U-turn into Forry to spin the Hazards away.

    [​IMG] TTar: Probably Stealth Rock turn one. If they use Stealth Rock first turn I will U-turn into Forry spinning their hazard away (hoping they don't have a fire type attack). If they kill me first turn they don't have rocks up and I will switch into Infernape to U-turn predicting their switch.

    [​IMG] Uxie: Stealth Rock turn one to see what set they have. If they go Twave it sucks, but if I choose Heal Bell on Vappy this isn't a huge problem.






    [​IMG]

    *** Supporter ***
    Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 188 HP/ 252 Def/ 56 Spdef/ 8 Spatt/ 4 Speed
    Bold Nature (+Def,-Att)
    - Wish
    - Roar/Heal Bell/Protect
    - Surf
    - Hidden Power [Electric]

    Description + EVs, Item and Nature:
    This is my supporter with Wish and Roar/Heal Bell. I have my own ev spread and when you first look at it this might seem a weird set, but if you look more carefully you can see the 188 hp and 252 def just like it was a few months ago (meaning 448 hp and 240 def). 56 spdef evs is to get 240 spdef (just like my def, well I just like the number since it ends with a zero lol) en rest spread between spatt and speed. I could go for 4 spatt, 8 speed to maybe outspeed other Vappy's and 65 speed base Pokemon like Scizor who often carry 8 speed, but that's just something small to discuss I think. I have Bold Nature to boost my defense a bit since defense is Vappy's weak point. Lefties is there to regain a amount of health every turn to survive longer. In combination with Protect, Wish and Toxic damage this really lets Vappy survive longer and stall better.​

    Moves:
    Wish is there since every Vappy should carry it and is crucial to heal members like Forretress and Infernape (because of LO) to get some health back (sadly not 5th gen meaning they would get 50% of Vappy's health or in ideal case 50% of Blissey's health so if it uses Wish and I switch out, Forry would be fully restored lol). Wish also increases my teams longevity and helps me stalling better with Toxic Spikes. With the second slot I am not certain to be honest. When testing this team I had Roar. If you look at my team members Forretress and Azelf who support the team with Stealth Rock and Tspikes, Roar can rack up entry hazard damage and if Toxic Spikes are up something can get poisoned. ​

    Roar also workes with set uppers like DD Ttar who loved setting up in my face or DD Kingdra. So with Roar they went for DD predicting my switch but yeah I just Roared them away for more entry hazard damage + poison. Heal Bell could also work here since I told before this team is defensively based and therefore it is important to win stall wars so Heal Bell could help my team not getting random status hax and also makes sure my sweepers can sweep more easily (so not paralyzed or burned or whatsoever). I could also run Aromatherapy on Bliss however so Vappy can run Roar or Protect. The latter might also work since it makes sure that Vaporeon gets healed but at the same time becomes very predictable. So when facing a DDer they might predict the Protect and get a free boost which off course is not good for me. ​

    Surf is just for STAB, not even mentioning Hydro Pump lol (bad acc and bad pp). Hp Electric is to check Gyara since Vappy does a fine role at doing that. Most will just Taunt predicting Toxic or Wish but Hp Electric is for whatsoever reason surprising since most Gyara stay in hoping I don't have it. This set also works against ResTalk variants since Hp Electric 2hko's meaning the only thing he can do is Roar or when I am lucky Waterfall me to get 25% hp back lol.​



    [​IMG]

    *** Revenge killer ***
    Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP/ 40 Spatt/ 216 Speed
    Timid Nature (+Speed,-Att)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hydro Pump
    - Trick

    Description:
    Well again a Rotom-A scarfed just like in my first team hmm.... Well to be sure it really works, but sadly not against those common Ttar who switch in just say hi and pursuit my Rotom in the face. Luckily there is a Heat Form preventing Scizor of even trying to trap me, but the Heat form just doesn't work against Ttar. This time I chose the Rotom-W form because it deals best with Ttar, since they will think twice before trying to trap this thing. They off course don't want to get smacked by a Hydro Pump in the face since most Rotom-W carry a Choice Specs. ​

    EVs, Item and Nature:
    Well the ev spread is not mine to be honest. When I tested this team I just had 4 hp, 252 spatt, 252 speed just like in my first RMT, but in my second thread Sandshrewz adviced me of using this set, since it was the set BKC suggested to him and since it didn't fit in his team, he suggested this set to me. This set has more bulk than the standard one but at the cost of special attack and speed. This might seem stupid since with less special attack my chances of defeating Ttar are even lower than with max spatt, but with the bulk it lets me switch in more times. If you have 4 hp, it means you have 242 hp - 12,5% stealth rock every time you switch in so this Rotom which normally could switch in on Scizors U-turn is going down pretty fast. With the extra amount of hp evs it lets me switch in on possible treats and with the choice scarf and decent special attack letting me revenge kill stuff at low health. Timid Nature with Scarf is there to outspeed DD Gyara with Jolly Nature at +1.​

    Moves:
    Thunderbolt is just for STAB to hit those water and flying types (lol Gyara), Shadow Ball opposing Rotom and other Ghost and Psychic types for super-effective damage. The 20% chance of reducing sp def is also handy since if I tricked my scarf away this might turn a 2hko into a 1hko. Hydro Pump is as I told before mainly for Ttar (meh) but also works against ground types who think they can take an electric type attack. Trick is for things like Bliss (yep really funny when tricking it a scarf lol lol), Cress and other annoying walls. It also works against set uppers like DD Nite and DD Kingdra so when Tricking them a Scarf they are locked into DD (double lol). ​

    Example (if you care):
    Tricking a set-upper also won me the match one time (will never forget it). I was fighting against a CurseTtar with Rest/Sleep Talk/Curse/Payback and it was like at +5 or something (don't exactly know since I already thought I would lose the battle), so when it killed of some guy (don't know who) I went out into Rotom and Tricked it when it used Sleep Talk lol, so when it woke up he was locked into sleep talk meaning I won (it did Sleep Talk Payback so I lost my Rotom but yeah it was worth it), since I just went out into Forretress to EQ and eventually into Infernape to CC (didn't kill since it was at +5 or something) and two did kill. So Rotom-W def worked in this case.​



    [​IMG]

    *** See picture ***
    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP/ 112 Att/ 144 Def
    Impish Nature (+Def,-Spatt)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Payback
    - Earthquake/ Spikes

    Description:
    This basically is my most important member since it can lay up Toxic Spikes to provide the Toxic stall, while removing entry hazards with Rapid Spin. I am not sure about having spikes on this set since I liked toxic spikes more in this case since the latter gives continues damage if you stay in and not only when you switch. So when a pokemon of my opponent is poisoned, I can stall it with Vappy's Wish and Blissey's Softboiled. I know this method is very cheap but yeah everyone has its own tactic. Also I didn't want to have all three entry hazards since if my Rotom is down the only thing that needs to be done is Rapid Spinning them away meaning in the worst case 6 turns of setting up (toxic)spikes and SR go away. Forretress also gives a Dragon Type resistance to my team, as well as Ghost, Dark and Grass to help my team with. Therefore it is very important to keep it alive with Vappy's Wish.​

    EVs, Item and Nature:
    As you might have noticed that this set also has a reasonable amount of attacking power. This is mainly to hit ghost types on the switch with Payback when they are predicting the Rapid Spin. With this attack investment it can 3hko bulky Rotoms with SR (most of the time I just switch out after the attack fearing the Will-O-Wisp), and has a very high chance of OHKOing Gengar with Stealth Rock in play. I just have Impish Nature like the Smogon set, max Hp for bulk, 112 evs into attack and rest put into defense. I don't need to invest in special defense since I already have my next poke: BLISSEY!!! (gay thing). Leftovers is to survive longer lol.​

    Moves:
    You already know why I chose Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin and Payback, so now there's the last slot. When I had Forry in my team I had Earthquake in the last slot to hit Tran super-effectively who loved switching in on this. It also worked a few times against Lucario when Paralyzing it with Bliss on the switch, meaning Forry could outspeed it and hit Lucario with an Earthquake. I do have Vappy and Bliss for Tran but it was still nice to surprise them with it. Explosion might also work, but needs prediction skills since it works great when at low health, but combined with Forry's low speed you need to be careful when to explode. Also I don't think it is a good idea of blowing up my steel type and part of my stall core. Spikes might also work to have more entry hazard damage, but I am not sure to use both Tspikes and Spikes like I said before.​



    [​IMG]

    *** Staller ***
    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Spdef
    Bold Nature (+Def,-Att)
    - Thunder Wave
    - Seismic Toss
    - Ice Beam
    - Softboiled

    Description + EVs and Nature:
    Yeeey Bliss (I know it is gay lol). This thing works great in combination with Forry and Vappy since it makes the stall side of my team better. Another good thing about Bliss is that almost all special attacks go to this (sometimes to Vappy but that are mostly Heatran attacks) and that it is a status absorber making it even more important to my team. Well the ev spread is just the standard set I suppose: Bold Nature with max hp, max def, rest (only 4 lol) into spdef. ​

    Moves:
    Thunder Wave is just to cripple sweepers like Infernape and Lucario who love to switch in on this bitch. Forry already has Tspikes so I wanted another status move than Toxic. Seismic Toss to get 100 damage which works most of the time barring if you're having a stall war against a poke with a recovery move lol and yeah.. this is where Tspikes is handy since I can Toxic stall it FTW!! Ice Beam mainly is for ghost types like Gengar and Rotom who would otherwise completely make useless to use against them. Rotom and Gengar do have Pain Split though but still if I only have Seismic Toss as attack I am almost forced to switch out since Tspikes doesn't affect them and Gengar and Rotom might have Sub, making my Twave useless. I was also thinking of using Arometherapy to instantly heal my team. If I do choose it I don't need to chose Heal Bell on Vappy anymore. I just don't know if I should choose it on Bliss and if I choose it which move I should replace it for.​

    Softboiled > Wish since Softboiled gives instant recovery which is with stalling very important due to the prevalence of random crits which off course will happen if you stall for a long time. I could run Wish + Protect but Vappy also has Wish to heal the team so Softboiled on Bliss yeey. This set has been very useful since with Softboiled it is able to stall more effectively if you equate it with Wish which needs one turn before you get recovery (so if your opponent gets a crit Wish might become a problem since you have to wait one turn). Nothing else to say about this set (already said enough I think ;) ). ​




    [​IMG]

    *** Holy Sh*t! ***
    Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 252 Att/ 64 Spatt/ 192 Speed
    Naive Nature (+Speed,-Spdef)
    - Close Combat
    - U-turn
    - Mach Punch
    - Overheat

    Yess Infernape AGAIN like in my last team. The problem is that I couldn't really find another wallbreaker to fit into my team. It is just really fast and with its strong attacking moves able to hit most things hard (who doesn't resist the attack off course lol). It is exactly the same set like in my last team; I know it is not very original but I def needed one sweeper with good STAB moves and be mixed if possible. About this set just read what I've written in my last RMT.


    Last Glance
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Conclusion

    Well to be honest I think this team is pretty solid; it is able to stall when needed and sweeping if possible which is really good if a team can, since with that ability is can handle a lot of different builded teams. Vappy, Forry and Blissey are my walls and Azelf, Rotom and Infernape my sweepers. As you might have noticed this team doesn't have a FWG core like in my past teams, but a FWG core isn't necessary for a team to function well. Like I said in the Team Building Process, it would be nice if there are suggestions of using another pokemon than Infernape, especially since I already used it in my last team. I have also used Rotom before, but since it is another moveset (Rotom-W now and in my first team Rotom-H), and another EV spread I don't mind using Rotom again.

    Thanks for reading my RMT and hope you enjoyed it. The only thing I can ask you to do is if you want to rate it ;)

    Importable

    Importable version (open)


    Azelf @ Expert Belt
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 8 HP/ 248 Spatt/ 252 Speed
    Timid Nature (+Speed,-Att)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Psychic
    - Fire Blast
    - U-turn

    Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 188 HP/ 252 Def/ 56 Spdef/ 8 Spatt/ 4 Speed
    Bold Nature (+Def,-Att)
    - Wish
    - Roar/Heal Bell/Protect
    - Surf
    - Hidden Power [Electric]

    Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP/ 40 Spatt/ 216 Speed
    Timid Nature (+Speed,-Att)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hydro Pump
    - Trick

    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP/ 112 Att/ 144 Def
    Impish Nature (+Def,-Spatt)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Payback
    - Earthquake/ Spikes

    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Spdef
    Bold Nature (+Def,-Att)
    - Thunder Wave
    - Seismic Toss
    - Ice Beam
    - Softboiled

    Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 252 Att/ 64 Spatt/ 192 Speed
    Naive Nature (+Speed,-Spdef)
    - Close Combat
    - U-turn
    - Mach Punch
    - Overheat

  2. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Offensive Threats (alphabetically):
    ------------
    Black = no threat
    Orange = possible threat
    Red = threat
    ------------

    [​IMG] Azelf: Lead ones are a bit threatening since it is difficult to predict what set they have. Rotom outspeeds and kills with Shadow Ball. Bliss can take every attack bar Explosion. Forry everything bar a fire type move, which sadly most carry.

    [​IMG] Breloom: Azelf and Infernape outspeed and kill this thing with Psychic and Overheat respectively. Rotom also outspeeds but lacks the power of ohko-ing it. Probably will use something as sleep fodder so I can switch into Azelf to break the sub since he can't ohko me with Seed Bomb or Focus Punch.

    [​IMG] Dragonite: Don't really have a safe switch in. Bliss can come in on special attacks and paralyze it, whereas Forry can take physical attacks (barring Fire Punch). Rotom, Azelf and Infernape do outspeed but don't have a Ice Type move to hit it with, meaning I have to sac someone. Bliss does have Ice Beam but it doesn't kill. Lead ones also suck btw.

    [​IMG] Dugtrio: Can trap every member barring Rotom and Azelf. Only problem would be for my Ape. I do have Mach Punch so after some residual damage this Trio thing shouldn't be a huge problem.

    [​IMG] Electivire: Can come in on Vappy's Hp Electric or Rotom's Tbolt to get a speed boost, meaning it can outspeed everything (if it has a Speed boosting Nature). Azelf and Vappy can both take a Tpunch: 59.4% - 70% and 67.9% - 80.8% respectively. Rotom can take a Ice Punch (27% - 31.9%) and hitting it back with a Shadow Ball (37% - 43.5%). Can kill Forry with Flamethrower if it is mixed and do a shit load to Bliss if carrying Cross Chop. EQ kills Ape; Ape can Mach Punch though. If it doesn't have a speed boost, Evire shouldn't be a problem.

    [​IMG] Flygon: Vappy can beat in one on one. Forry can take Outrage, Tpunch and U-turn.

    [​IMG] Gallade: Azelf is killed by X-Scissor. Vappy can beat it one on one, forcing it to go CC. Ape outspeeds and can Overheat. Rotom outspeeds and kills with Shadow Ball, although Gallade might have Shadow Sneak.

    [​IMG] Gengar: Azelf outspeeds and kills with Psychic, if it isn't Scarfed. Vappy beats it, Forry should be careful of Hp Fire. Bliss can take everything barring Pain Split. Ape doesn't outspeed sadly. Rotom outspeeds and kills with Shadow Ball.

    [​IMG] Gyarados: That's where Vappy and Rotom come in handy.

    [​IMG] Heatran: Vappy and Bliss can take it on, should be careful of Explosion though.

    [​IMG] Heracross: Most ones are Scarfed, meaning Azelf and Ape have a problem. Bliss is KOd by CC, Forry can live a hit but can't do a lot back. Vappy can live a hit and hit it with Surf. Don't think my Rotom outspeeds; if my Rotom has 252 speed it does outspeed Heracross. I have a chance of defeating this if it is locked into either CC or Megahorn, since Rotom can come in on this. Luckily Heracross isn't as common anymore.

    [​IMG] Infernape: Azelf, Vappy, Rotom and my own Ape can take it down.

    [​IMG] Jirachi: For lead see Azelf description. Azelf's Fire blast. Infernape with Overheat lol. Should be careful of Sub + Calm Mind. I have Bliss though to break the sub easily with Seismic Toss.. if it doesn't have max hp.

    [​IMG] Jolteon: Only one that outspeeds is Rotom, so it sucks if Jolteon comes in on Rotom's Tbolt to get 25% health back, forcing me to switch out. Otherwise I can Shadow Ball for 2 hit ko whereas his Shadow Ball fails to KO me. Bliss can come in on every attack stalling them for Life Orb damage. Infernape can Mach Punch when at low health.

    [​IMG] Kingdra: Ape can revenge kill doing 23.2% - 27.8% with Mach Punch. Rotom can outpseed at + 1 but fails to kill with Tbolt. Vappy can take the water attack, forcing it to go for Draco Meteor or Outrage. Bliss can take on the full special set (not very common though). It is still pretty hard to take down since with Chesto Rest it will at least get at +2 so this sucks, don't really have a safe switch in.

    [​IMG] Lucario: Rotom, Ape's Mach Punch lol

    [​IMG] Machamp: Azelf kills with Psychic, Infernape does a fuck load with Overheat. Don't really have a safe switch in for this thing.

    [​IMG] Magnezone: Bliss yeah. Can trap Forry, I have EQ though, but if it carries Hp Fire Forry is fucked. Vappy should be careful of Tbolt. Infernape has Mach Punch if Zone is Scarfed. Azelf outspeeds even Scarfed variants and can hit it with a Fire Blast lol.

    [​IMG] Mamoswine: Azelf, Infernape, Rotom all beat it, should be careful of Ice Shard though (doesn't count for Ape, since Mach Punch ^^). Vappy can take EQ and hit back with Surf. Forry can take EQ but can't do much back.

    [​IMG] Metagross: For leads see Azelf description. Agility ones kinda suck, if they have Zen Headbutt they outspeed and do 54.6% - 64.5% to my Rotom (if they are Life Orbed and Jolly Natured). Vappy can live a hit, Forry too, but Forry only does 38% - 44.9% with EQ.

    [​IMG] Porygon-Z: Not that common anymore, but I still wanted to put it in the threat list. Bliss can take on every set and Twave it + Seismic Toss, I have to watch out for Trick though. I should also be careful of NP sets since they can set up on my Bliss, although Ape outspeeds and can CC and Rotom also outspeeds NP sets. Agility sets outspeed my Rotom and Ape but lack the power of killing my Bliss. I always have Mach Punch on Ape when necessary.

    [​IMG] Rotom-H: Bliss beats defensive set since I can Paralyze it and can hit it with Ice Beam. Most carry Pain Split so might be tricky to count on Bliss. For Scarfed sets I am safe unless it is Tricking my Bliss a Scarf.
    [​IMG] Rotom-C: See above!
    [​IMG] Rotom-W: Most ones are Scarfed or Specsed, so in theorem Bliss can take it (should be careful of Trick).

    [​IMG] Scizor: Kinda annoying, since most U-turn and Forry, Ape and Rotom resist it, allowing them to switch in a counter to Forry, Ape and Rotom. The latter can beat it one on one if it doesn't switch in on any of Scizor's attacks.

    [​IMG] Shaymin: Azelf outspeeds and does about 90% with Fire Blast (depends on the set though), so with entry hazard damage it should kill. Bliss should be careful of Leech Seed, although it can stall out Seed Flare's pp. Ape outspeeds and kills with Overheat.

    [​IMG] Starmie: Rotom outspeeds and Bliss can take everything bar Trick.

    [​IMG] Suicune: Vappy beats CroCune and Bliss all other variants. Rotom outspeeds and Tbolts.

    [​IMG] Togekiss: Rotom outspeeds but should be careful of Twave. Bliss can Twave it lol, but should still be careful since I don't like stall wars.

    [​IMG] Tyranitar: Mach Punch Ape FTW!!

    [​IMG] Weavile: See Above lol

    [​IMG] Yanmega: Stealth Rock lol. Bliss can Seismic Toss for 2hko after Stealth Rock. Rotom resist Air Slash and Bug Buzz so Tbolt kills.

    [​IMG] Zapdos: Blissey!!

    Defensive Threats (alphabetically):

    [​IMG] Blissey: Rotom can Trick, Forry Tspikes to Toxic stall. Infernape kills with CC. Usually switch in my own Blissey to see if it carries Twave or Toxic.

    [​IMG] Bronzong: Didn't mention this in lead strategy, but Azelf does 70%~ with Fire Blast without entry hazards. Set up fodder for Forry lol. Bliss can para, but should be careful of Explosion. Rotom can handle it decent, since it can come in on Gyro Ball, EQ and Explosion, only problem is Payback. Ape is certain to kill Bronzong after SR damage with Overheat.

    [​IMG] Celebi: Azelf's and Ape's U-turn lol. Azelf does 80%~ with Fire Blast and Ape kills with Overheat. Rotom's Shadow Ball is a 2hko since it does around 50% damage to Celebi. Rotom can also trick it since most are defensive in some way. Bliss can wall it, but has to be careful of Leech Seed.

    [​IMG] Cresselia: Rotom's Shadow Ball unfortunately is a 3hko, thus Cress recovers more than Rotom does, unless spdef drop or crit. Rotom can also Trick it, which is very useful. Bliss can Twave making is less threatening.

    [​IMG] Donphan: Vappy can take it easily, hitting with STAB Surf while recovering with Wish. Rotom can Trick when needed or hit it with a Hydro Pump. Ape does a fuck load with Overheat and Azelf does 60%~ with Psychic.

    [​IMG] Dusknoir: Rotom 2hko's with Shadow Ball and can easily take a Shadow Sneak due the amount of bulk Rotom has. Vappy can take it and Toxic stall it (hoping Forry laid them up) and doesn't mind being burned. Have to be careful of Pain Split due to Vappy's high amount of hp.

    [​IMG] Forretress: Azelf and Inferape lol. My own Forry can take it too, spinning away their hazards. Rotom can Trick, but has to be careful of Payback. Vappy can take it as long as it doesn't carry Explosion.

    [​IMG] Gliscor: Vappy does 85%~ with Surf. Rotom can Trick it or hit it with Hydro Pump. Ape does a shit load with Overheat.

    [​IMG] Gyarados: Vappy beats defensive versions and ResTalkers. I always have Rotom to kill them at +1.

    [​IMG] Heatran: Bliss and Vappy beat Spdef sets. Torment sets are annoying but only damaging move Heatran can do is Lava Plume.

    [​IMG] Hippowdon: Vappy can wall it and Rotom fucks it over with Trick lol.

    [​IMG] Jirachi: CM sets suck but luckily Bliss can take most sets, since SubCM doesn't have enough Hp to prevent Seismic Toss breaking it. CM + Wish kinda suck since I can Paralyze but eventually he recovers more than I do with Seismic Toss. Ape can do a shit load with Overheat when it has a few CMs, but it really isn't a safe switch-in since most CM sets carry Psychic. Azelf can def do something with Fire Blast since it resist Psychic and with Expert Belt does 80%~ with Fire Blast without a boost and 55%~ at +1.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] Rotom-A: Bliss can take defensive sets with ease, paralyzing them without bothering being Burned or Twaved in return. My own Rotom 2hko's with Shadow Ball.

    [​IMG] Skarmory: Azelf has a high chance to kill psycial sets with Fire Blast after SR. Special sets only take 60%~. Ape kills with Overheat lol. Forry Rapid Spins FTW. Rotom does a shit load with Tbolt.

    [​IMG] Snorlax: Curse sets are annoying. I do have Rotom to Trick, but most carry Crunch sadly, so basically I fodder Rotom. Infernape CC FTW. Should be careful of Body Slam and EQ for Ape since at +1 it kills and I fail to kill with CC.

    [​IMG] Suicune: Vappy says hi to Crocune, Bliss takes all other sets. Rotom does a fuck load with Tbolt.

    [​IMG] Swampert: Vappy can take this easily. Rotom can Trick when needed.

    [​IMG] Tentacruel: Annoying since it absorbs my Tspikes. Bliss can take it however and Azelf is most likely to 2hko after SR (3hko also possible). Rotom's Tbolt FTW.

    [​IMG] Tyranitar: CurseTtar are annoying but Rotom can Trick when needed (very helpful!!) and Infernape always has STAB CC to hit it with. Vappy can Roar if Ttar is not the last pokemon of my opponent. Toxic Spikes don't really help in this case since it is just going to rest to cure the poison status.

    [​IMG] Vaporeon: Tspikes really help here, especially 2 layers. My own Vappy can come in on Surf. Bliss can wall it and Twave. Rotom Tbolt and Trick.

    [​IMG] Zapdos: Bliss yeah! Otherwise Rotom can Trick if it is a Sub+Roost+Toxic set. It still is kinda annoying since it can Toxic Bliss and recover the Seismic Toss damage with Roost.
  3. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz
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    Hello there! :) nice to finally see your RMT. Overall a solid team (that is not the typical Gen4 team) with only a few threats.

    Firstly it has good typing synergy. You have equal or more resists for the type you are weak to. This isn't always easily achievable.on every team.

    Azelf is fine and gets the job done although it loses to status leads like Roserade. It is possbile to just psychic it, let it sleep powder you then switch to forry as it lays Tspikes and rapid spin for the kill and remove those layers as well if your opponent doesn't realise that. Or simply just go to ape to mach punch so it gets up only 1 layer. U-turn is still pursuitable as you know :P nothing to do about that. If it gets pursuited by ttar, you have a free switch to anything (even rotom w if you wish).

    For Vappy, I would use roar for the 2nd slot. Not really sure how it counters crocune but at least you can roar set uppers away and rack up hazard damage. Using wish without protect is an uphill task but it's not impossible. Do note that protect lets the opponent take another turn of toxic damage once tspikes are laid. Generally protect is the best choice but due to the lack of phazers, roar has more use. The EV spread seems reliable to me :)

    And there you have that Rotom W from BKC. Yep, with enough residual damage from your hazards, you can just spam scarf tbolts or shadow ball late game to clean up everything. It works though even with the lack of stat up moves. Vappy attracts electric moves so much that you can easily pass a wish to rotom (grass isn't very common). Trick should be a last resort move though. It can help with some set uppers like suicune and dnite. Yes if you can switch in safely and survive a move, trick will lock it into something like dragon claw or outrage for forry to come in and wear it down.

    Hm i've never seen a forry without spikes. Depends on your personal preference though. The current EV spread from smogon is to enable it to OHKO magnezone and heatran (on the switch though...). If you run spikes, just use the physically or specially defensive set. Payback doesn't hurt rotom too much since defensive ones carry rest. If you don't use payback, gyro ball is an option to still hit gengar and dd ttar without fire punch. Gyro ball has only 8PP though.

    twave on blissey may contradict tspikes but twave still hits a large portion of things that aren't affected by tspikes. Your offensive pokemons aren't slow to begin with so twave support isn't crucial but it's always nice to catch things like ape with twave on the switch. I don't see the need for blissey to have 2 attacking moves though. Although seismic toss does a reliable 100 damage to everything bar ghosts, it may not be as usefull since blissey is probably just going to twave everything on the switch instead of stossing them. Generally I find stoss getting less and less useful since it's the standard move on blissey. Residual damage from toxicspikes and SR is enough though. Blissey should support the team more. Why not have aromatherapy on blissey over stoss? So vappy doesn't have to run heal bell. Just something extra, consider flamethrower over icebeam on blissey? Flamethrower seems to hit more things like forry and a paralysed luc. It also has more PP. I found flamethrower more useful. But then again, you have fire blast and overheat already.

    Yep good old infernape. With so much residual damage you can force with your team, it turns many 3HKOs into 2HKOs and 2HKOs into OHKOs. Twave also helps with random levitating things not called flygon which are faster than ape so ape can easily KO them. A good late game sweeper with rotom. Vappy can pass wish to infernape if there are random grass users as well.

    For a few random threats, here are some ideas. Mixed dnite, just weardown its LO with forry and vappy by switching around and passing wish. If it has roost, just hit it once in awhile and roar it out once it's in range for SR to kill (if it doesn't roost up :P) for DD dnite, trick with rotom and act accordingly though... Dragonite has good coverage but choice item will limit dnite's use. Against the almost non existent CM jirachi, just break it's sub and trick it too. Trick is so useful that it should only be used if you have no other options. Don't be too tempted to trick to blissey though cos you might need it later.

    Not much problems here. Not really sure if it's semi stall or bulky offense but it looks good :) it can keep offensive and defensive pressuree while forcing residual damage. Rotom must stay alive throughout to keep your hazards safe but with wish pass, it shouldn't be too much of a problem unless you get pursuited.

    Good luck! :)
  4. NMx13

    NMx13

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2011
    Messages:
    179
    That team is Bulky offensive.
    My 1# note you have balanced team; More resists than weakness.
    2# Blissey (Twave)+ Forry (Toxic Spikes) = No much use to Twave. So I would use on Bliss -Wish -Protect -Flamethrower -Seismictoss and 8 Spd EVs to outspd Scizor with 4 Spd EVs.
    3# Instead of Vaporeon I would use Bulky Suicune since your Bliss has Wish and Suicune is more bulky; especially @Lum Berry -CM -Surf -Rest -Hp Elec
    4# SpA based Mixed Ape, in my opinion. Counters and lures stuff in late game excluded Dnite, Zapdos and all threats what you have.

    Good luck! Hoping we can have mach in future.
  5. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Glory to Arstotzka!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    2,007
    Hey, I must say, cool team. While Azelf and Infernape looked kinda out of place at first, he can clean up very effectively after entry hazards have done their job. Speaking of entry hazards, I think Spikes is much on better on Forretress to help your team. You can also use a moveset of Wish / Protect / Surf / Roar to abuse entry hazards better and have more reliable Wish recovery. Hidden Power Electric is kinda redundant anyway, Roar does the job just fine, and Taunt Gyara is easily handled by Rotom.

    Onto the actual rate, Dragon Dance Kingdra seems like he could cause some trouble. He can set up on Infernape, Rotom-W locked in Hydro Pump, or Forretress, and with Substitute or ChestoRest protecting him from status, you pretty much don't have a reliable way of beating him. Nothing on your team can take a boosted Waterfall besides Vaporeon who can't do anything but Roar him out and takes a lot from Outrage.
    Dragon Dance Dragonite can also cause some trouble, setting up Infernape or Rotom locked in Hydro Pump, and can just spam Outrage because the only thing on your team that likes taking it is Forretress who can do nothing back. Vaporeon can take an Outrage and Roar him out though, but Roost will make that harder to work with. MixNite can also cause some trouble with Draco Meteor to hit anything but Forretress or Blissey, who get roasted with Fire Blasted or KOed by Superpower, though Vaporeon can do a decent job vs MixNite as well.
    Finally, Calm Mind Jirachi can cause trouble as well, seeing as most are designed to take out Blissey, having either Wish or 101 HP Subs, and you won't enjoy +6 Psychics even with such great special bulk. After that, he can just take out all of your team because Infernape's Overheat doesn't do much after a few Calm Minds (and can't risk switching in on a Psychic either). I guess you can try Tricking it with Rotom, but that's not really reliable.

    There are quite a lot of possible solutions, and I'm gonna try explaining them all. First of all, Swampert > Azelf popped my mind right away, as he can take any attack from Kingdra rather easily and Roar him out, as well as taking any attack from Dragonite (neither +1 LO Outrage or LO Draco Meteor KOes, it does quite some damage though) and OHKO with Ice Beam. He can also take down Calm Mind Jirachi with Earthquake and decent bulk to take Psychic's. He would be a good fit over Azelf, who seems kinda out of place tbh. Another option to try is, Lead Celebi over Azelf. He resists Waterfall, and can Leaf Storm Kingdra for the 2HKO. He also takes out Dragonite from the start, having Occa Berry for Fire Blast and taking him out with HP Ice. He also resists Psychic and Thunderbolt and Earth Power for good damage. Less reliable for taking on the threats, but more offensive.

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    Swampert @ Leftovers | Torrent
    Relaxed | 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpD
    Stealth Rock / Earthquake / Ice Beam / Roar


    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Occa Berry | Natural Cure
    Timid | 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
    Stealth Rock / Leaf Storm / Earth Power / Hidden Power Ice


    Good luck!
  6. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Thanks for the rates so far, I really appreciate them!

    @ Sandshrewz: I also think Roar is the best option on Vappy in the second slot. When I tested this team on PO it also has Roar and did quite good. I think I will keep Payback on Forretress and choose Spikes in the last slot. I am not sure about Bliss set tbh. I def want Aromatherapy but I am not sure about the other moves, since it depends on the other decisions I make to my team. If I for example choose the Swampert or Celebi Tomahawk suggested I will probably go for Flamethrower as an attack since the aforementioned both have an Ice type attack to deal with Dragons and and an Ground type attack to deal with Rachi.

    @ NMx13: I really like Vappy tbh since it fits great into my team and with Wish helps my team surviving longer. I also like Physically Mixed Ape more in this case, especially since it has priority to hit things like Ttar and Lucario for super-effective damage and to revenge kill frail things like Flygon and Jolteon which normally would outspeed Infernape. I appreciate your concern about DNite and Zapdos so Hp Ice would work on Ape, but since Tomahawk gave advice about changing my lead I think I will choose the Ice type move on my lead. About Bliss Twave and Tspikes contradict each other, but I am not sure about the moveset for my Bliss. I def want to try out Wish + Protect, but since Vappy also has Wish I think that Softboiled is the better option. Thanks for your rate!

    @ Tomahawk: Hp Electric is mainly for Gyara tbh, but I want to say that Gyara isn't as common anymore, especially since it is SR weak and since most teams are prepared for it nowadays. Protect seems a solid option over Hp Electric, since it works great with Tspikes and with Choiced users to scout what attack they will lock themselves into. DD Kingdra does suck, I also had problems with that in my last team. What is btw a counter to DD Kingdra? Empoleon resist both STAB attacks but I don't know anything more that can really take hits and hit hard back.

    Both lead replacements are good suggestions!! Azelf is indeed out of place. I started with Azelf since I wanted that as a lead, so I builded my team around Azelf while keeping in mind that I kinda wanted a bulky offensive or semi-stall team (don't know the difference). This team has good synergy with resistances etc. but has 3 walls and 3 sweepers so there's nothing in between and that's what makes my team good in stalling and sweeping but also makes it pretty fragile. In my other teams most members were pretty bulky and able to do damage while still able to take hits. This team however can stall with three members and sweep with three members. The stall members can only stall and cannot do much back. Same for sweepers, they can only sweep and don't like taking hits. This is what I think a weak point; it has good synergy but every member has like a role and in my other teams every pokemon had more rolls. I hope you understand what I mean now :) That's why Azelf and Ape are kinda out of place; Azelf especially, since I still like Ape's role however. I will try both leads over Azelf, since they seem like pretty damn good options to use over Azelf. Celebi has the Psychic type just like Azelf and also is part Grass and can handle most leads. Swampert seems also a good replacement, but is kinda slow. Pretty funny that in my first and second team I had Swampert but eventually I used another Poke over it, and now I have a lead and I will try Swampert over it :) I don't know if you've got time, but could you give some advices about the lead matchups for Swampert and Celebi, or give me a link where I can read it. Thanks for your rate, really appreciate it!

    Now something about my Vappy and Bliss moveset. I will probably have Wish/ Protect/ Surf/ Roar for Vappy and something with Aromatherapy on Bliss. If I replace Azelf I will probably choose Flamethrower > Ice Beam, especially since Pert and Celebi have an Ice type attack, but I am not sure about that. So for know I have Aromatherapy and Flamethrower/Ice Beam on Bliss. Now the last two slots. It def needs a recovery move, but I don't know if I will go for Wish + Protect, especially since Vappy also has it. So I think that I will choose Softboiled as a recovery move, just like I have now. What about the last slot; Seismic Toss seems good but Twave also, especially to hit Steels, Flyings and Levitaters not part Ground typed lol.
  7. Arikado

    Arikado

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,776
    Suggestions are in bold.

    Choice Band Tyranitar (And Scarf, but it's much less threatening), and Dragonite (especially mixed ones) give your team a lot of trouble. NONE of your teammates can switch in safely on a CBTar's Stone Edge. It can Pursuit both your Rotom and Azelf, getting rid of your revenge killer and special sweeper. Although you can revenge Tyranitar with Mach Punch, it's not always so safe because it doesn't ensure an OHKO, even though with your entry hazards, it will. (78.6% - 95%)

    You can't counter Tyranitar with Vaporeon either, because a Stone Edge will surely 2HKO it:

    252 Adamant CB Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252/252 Bold Vaporeon: 58.4% - 68.8%
    252 Jolly ScarfTar Stone Edge vs. 252/252 Bold Vaporeon: 35.6% - 42%

    I can't really suggest anything to counter Tyranitar without replacing one of your team members. And that would ruin your whole strategy..

    As for mixed Dragonite. It basically can rape each one of your team members. The own set you recommended me in my RMT can sweep through your whole team except for maybe Vaporeon, who can take a lot of damage from Dragonite anyway. It can Superpower Blissey, Fire Blast Forretress, Draco Meteor Rotom-W, Azelf, and Infernape. And it can also revenge kill them with ExtremeSpeed with the exception of Rotom.

    I won't do major changes because I don't think you really need to switch any of your team members, I just suggest that you change Rotom-W's moveset to this:

    Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf
    Timid
    252 SAtk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball
    - HP Ice
    - Trick / Hydro Pump


    With this set you can outspeed Dragonite even if it managed to get a DD, and revenge it with HP Ice (it does 81.7% - 96.6% to 0/0 Dnite). I never really understood why Rotom needed those hp EVs anyway, maximum power is the way to go. :)

    Now that you have HP Ice on Rotom, having Ice Beam on Blissey seems redundant. So I recommend you change that to Flamethrower. And since your team already runs T.Spikes it's also redundant to run T-Wave on Blissey. If you're thinking about paralyzing the levitators, it's not worth it because most levitators can be taken care of by your Rotom-W. Except for Scarf Flygon which can't really touch Vapreon. So I recommend switching T-Wave for Protect on Blissey to help you stall a bit with T.Spikes support.

    Oh, and I know this isn't common, if ever used in OU. But watch out for Rapid Spin + Foresight Hitmontop. lol.

    Hope I helped, man. And good luck with your team. :)
  8. bubbly

    bubbly

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2009
    Messages:
    883
    Main threats I can see mostly stem from the lack of a reliable physical or mixed wall (e.g., most stall has 1 or more of Gyarados / Skarmory / Hippowdon). This means that Dragonite, Kingdra, Tyranitar, Breloom and Machamp are all massive threats.

    Toma's suggestion of Swampert + Celebi covers these very well. Another option would be to just use a Careful RestTalk Gyarados > Vaporeon.

    One thing I wanted to mention, though, is that your team looks much more like an offensive Spikes abusing team than full on stall. Blissey in particular looks out of place, since its just inviting in the Fighting types which you are very weak to, as well as just negating any offensive momentum you might gain with Infernape. I don't really know what direction you want to go in with the team, but it would be worth experimenting imo using more offensively oriented substitutes for Blissey (e.g. Lanturn, Venusaur, SpDef Heatran), and let the entire team shift into a more offensive spikes abusing mentality (e.g. Starmie > Vaporeon, Skarmory > Forretress).

    Anyway, sorry I don't have time for a proper rate, good luck :)
  9. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Thanks for the rates again! This team does pretty good tbh. I have tried Celebi as a lead and it did pretty damn good. The occa berry worked great especially against ape and tran leads so I could lay up my rocks safely. I chose Roar in the second slot and Protect > Hp Electric and that really worked since Wish + Protect guarantees recovery while stalling out Toxic and scouting what choice users lock themselves into. For Rotom I have Hp Ice > Hydro Pump, since tbh I didn't really use the latter and Hp Ice lets me revenge likk Dnite at +1. I do want to keep my own ev spread though. Spikes in the last slot for Forry is boss, since it really helped me a lot. I changed Bliss moveset to this

    Blissey @ Leftovers | Natural Cure
    Bold | 252 HP / 252 Def / 6 Spe
    Toxic / Softboiled / Flamethrower / Aromatherapy

    Toxic might seem redundant in combination with Tspikes, but it really helped me against Levitators and Flyings like Zapdos, Rotom-A and Flygon. Flamethrower also was better than Ice Beam in my opinion.

    If there are more suggestions, feel free to post them!

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