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Singles BSS Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Battle Spot' started by Psynergy, Jun 7, 2017.

  1. Psynergy

    Psynergy My turn!
    is a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2014
    Messages:
    532
    [​IMG]
    Credit to Centinela for the banner!
    Welcome to the Battle Spot Sun/Moon Viability Rankings thread. Here, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into ranks. You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the Pokemon that are usable in the metagame and what rank they should fall under. The general idea of the topic is to rank Pokemon based on their effectiveness in the Battle Spot Singles metagame.

    The VR Council has the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list. These users are all well informed players that gather the community's input to make final decisions on any individual Pokemon:
    (In alphabetical order)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Tapu Lele

    A Rank
    A+

    [​IMG] Aegislash
    [​IMG] Blaziken
    [​IMG] Charizard (Mega-X)
    [​IMG] Charizard (Mega-Y)
    [​IMG] Garchomp
    [​IMG] Gengar (Mega)
    [​IMG] Mimikyu
    [​IMG] Salamence (Mega)
    [​IMG] Tapu Koko
    [​IMG] Volcarona

    A

    [​IMG]
    Breloom
    [​IMG] Celesteela
    [​IMG] Excadrill
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn
    [​IMG] Greninja
    [​IMG] Gyarados (Mega)
    [​IMG] Heatran
    [​IMG] Hippowdon
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan (Mega)
    [​IMG] Landorus-T
    [​IMG] Mamoswine
    [​IMG] Mawile (Mega)
    [​IMG] Metagross (Mega)
    [​IMG] Porygon2
    [​IMG] Tapu Fini
    [​IMG] Thundurus-T
    [​IMG] Tyranitar

    A-

    [​IMG] Cloyster
    [​IMG] Cresselia
    [​IMG] Dragonite
    [​IMG] Heracross (Mega)
    [​IMG] Lucario (Mega)
    [​IMG] Nihilego
    [​IMG] Primarina
    [​IMG] Scizor (Mega)
    [​IMG] Suicune
    [​IMG] Venusaur (Mega)
    [​IMG] Zapdos

    B Rank
    B+

    [​IMG] Azumarill
    [​IMG] Buzzwole
    [​IMG] Chansey
    [​IMG] Gengar
    [​IMG] Gliscor
    [​IMG] Gyarados
    [​IMG] Hydreigon
    [​IMG] Kartana
    [​IMG] Latios
    [​IMG] Magnezone
    [​IMG] Ninetales-A
    [​IMG] Pelipper
    [​IMG] Pheromosa
    [​IMG] Porygon-Z
    [​IMG] Rotom-H
    [​IMG] Rotom-W
    [​IMG] Serperior
    [​IMG] Skarmory
    [​IMG] Slowbro (Mega)
    [​IMG] Tapu Bulu
    [​IMG] Thundurus-I

    B

    [​IMG] Araquanid
    [​IMG] Chandelure
    [​IMG] Gastrodon
    [​IMG] Glalie
    [​IMG] Kingdra
    [​IMG] Lapras
    [​IMG] Pyukumuku
    [​IMG] Quagsire
    [​IMG] Rhyperior
    [​IMG] Toxapex

    B-

    [​IMG]
    Clefable
    [​IMG] Gigalith
    [​IMG] Marowak-A
    [​IMG] Raikou
    [​IMG] Sylveon
    [​IMG] Talonflame
    [​IMG] Whimsicott
    [​IMG] Xurkitree

    Rules
    • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think Pokemon X should be in this tier" without giving any reasoning will not be tolerated
    • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but avoid basing your entire argument around them.
    • No flaming, if you disagree with someone please be civil about it
    • No one-liners or useless comments
  2. Psynergy

    Psynergy My turn!
    is a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    We're giving this a fresh start again since NOVED is no longer running the VR thread and there's still some cleaning up that needs to be done. First off we have chemcoop and Solerme joining the VR council! They were part of the council during the previous vote but it was never made clear before, welcome guys! Second, we did take a look at the previous nominations in the last thread and voted on those, these changes are reflected in the current VR and I'll be posting our votes so you can see exactly why we did or didn't move something, with explanations if any were given. This list is by no means definitive so if you have anything to nominate then do so by all means.

    With that said here are the votes for the previous round of nominations:

    Mega Charizard Y: A -> A+
    Show Hide
    cant say: A+

    chemcoop: agree; this thing just torches half the meta immediately and then flame charges to outspeed and HP Ice/fire moves most of the rest of the meta

    DragonWhale: it wasnt A+ already?

    NOVED: A+

    Psynergy: Definitely move up, there aren't many Fire resists that can afford to take a Solar Beam right after switching into Sun-boosted Fire moves. The fact that we're seeing more Stealth Rock for stuff like this is a strong indicator of how threatening Charizard is, no reason for this to be below Mega Charizard X.

    Solerme: A+

    Theorymon: A+


    Mega Charizard X: A+ -> A
    Show Hide
    cant say: A

    chemcoop: disagree; if you don't have a game plan vs. X, you will be swept or at least torn apart by this thing. Way too much of a monster to drop to A.

    DragonWhale: A+

    NOVED: disagree, i think zard x is a+ strong. it can take games just as well as zard y too imo.

    Psynergy: Keep in A+, this thing is still insane and it will break down teams that aren't properly prepared for it. It's like a Salamence that isn't cheesed by HP Ice and has burn immunity, which can be even more dangerous than Salamence for some teams. If I'm honest I usually find it easier to cover Salamence than Mega Charizard X, Fire/Dragon is just that good even with Tapu Fini around.

    Solerme: i'm with noved on this, i definitely think that CharX deserves a place in A+. It can change games if manages to go +1 (even without), also it has cool moves such as roost and WoW. It's probably not the strongest A+, but it's still worth a place there.

    Theorymon: Don't agree to this, I think Mega Charizard X is just as good as Y. In fact, I feel that part of the reason why Mega Charizard Y deserves A+ is because of Mega Charizard X: Since you don't know which Charizard you'll be facing, a misprediction can screw you over.


    Suicune: A -> A-
    Show Hide
    cant say: A-

    chemcoop: agree; a bit too passive in a high paced meta - taunters like gyara can stop the CM lefties variant and electric/misty stop chesto resto. Also the presence of strong special attackers like Char Y and Koko put a lot of pressure on it. AV Mirror Coat variants are the most viable rn imo, but it's still too niche to give it A.

    DragonWhale: A-

    NOVED: agree, cunes bulk just isnt as necessary this gen like it used to be, too passive.

    Psynergy: I love using Suicune but I find it hard to put this on a team that wouldn't prefer having Tapu Fini in its place. Passive Pokemon took a huge hit this gen and Suicune struggles even more with finding times to set up with Calm Mind, while Tapu Fini handles most of the same things that Suicune can and more. Suicune is still a great Pokemon on teams that don't want that Poison weakness and it's still a solid CM user, it's just not quite as strong as it used to be.

    Solerme: A-

    Theorymon: Sure, Tapu Fini tends to be a better pick for a lot of teams, but Suicune still has enough niches to remain in A-.


    Rotom-H: A- -> B+
    Show Hide
    cant say: A-

    chemcoop: disagree; Sp.D Rotom-H is probably the best answer in existence to Char Y, Fini, Ferro cores and really only greninja is the only common water that can outspeed this thing and feel comfortable hitting it with a water move. The abundance of SR also hurts this little guy, but I think it's strong enough and checking mence/zard y teams to stay at A-

    DragonWhale: B+

    NOVED: kinda iffy, rotom-h is def way more useful i think, as far as rotoms go. but i feel like rotoms are just kinda underwhelming.

    Psynergy: I think Rotom-H is the better Rotom but I think there's just better Fire-types and better Electric-types to choose from. Overheat as its only Fire STAB is still not great even with Firium Z to help out, and its bulk is just not good enough especially with Talonflame being dead. It's a cool Rotom but I don't think this belongs in A- either, move this down.

    Solerme: A-

    Theorymon: Sure, I find them harder to place on teams lately.


    Rotom-W: A- -> B+
    Show Hide
    cant say: B+

    chemcoop: agree; not as much viability with so many strong special attackers - electrium koko just bops this thing for example, and so does zard y iirc.

    DragonWhale: B+

    NOVED: agree, lots of special attackers this gen made rotoms life tougher

    Psynergy: Same deal as Rotom-H, this thing is even worse off since Electric/Water is just not a great defensive typing in this meta, and it's not strong enough without Choice Specs or a Z-Move which has obvious flaws of making it rather frail while not being very fast. It still has a useful niche but I find it difficult to fit this on a team these days.

    Solerme: not 100% sure about this, but i'm good with B+.

    Theorymon: B+


    Garchomp: S -> A+
    Show Hide
    cant say: A+

    chemcoop: agree; rip the king. I think AV/sash landog has surpassed it in doing ground type things like setting rocks and dishing out EQs. Still has the ability to act as a zard/volc/mence counter with a scarf set, but all in all has lost the invincibility and utility it had in oras. Honestly, I don't understand how it is still #6 in usage - I literally never see it on cart or ps

    DragonWhale: A+

    NOVED: yeah, with lando everywhere, mimi everywhere, fairies in general everywhere, chomp doesnt feel that great. at least not S rank great

    Psynergy: Honestly still think this is S tier worthy just because it's still just as versatile as before, but it's hard to deny the drop in usage and the competition it has as a splashable Pokemon. Dragon/Ground is also not as dominant of a type combination as it used to be with stuff like Celesteela and Tapu Fini around, but it's still capable of filling so many roles and can easily fit the trump card role on a team. I don't want this to drop from S, but based on everyone else's votes it might be time.

    Solerme: rip the king, but yes.

    Theorymon: I still like Garchomp a lot... but I think A+ is a better fit for it due to the rise of Mimikyu and Landorus-T and such.


    Mega Kangaskhan: A -> A-
    Show Hide
    cant say: A-

    chemcoop: disagree; too bulky, too fast, too good of move pool still

    DragonWhale: maybe

    NOVED: disagree, i think mega kang is still solid enough for A. its insane coverage and bulk makes it tough to beat for certain teams.

    Psynergy: I think Kangaskhan has definitely taken enough of a hit to justify this drop. It's still an excellent Mega but I've seen so many games where the damage is not as impressive as I'd want it to be, even at +2. It's got the movepool to cover so much but the nerf hits it too much for my liking. Kang's usage keeps on falling too, it's only barely edging into top 30 at this point.

    Solerme: i'm kinda 50/50 on this.

    Theorymon: Not a fan of this since I think Mega Kangaskhan is still one of the better bulky attackers out there.


    Azumarill: A- -> B+
    Show Hide
    cant say: B+

    chemcoop: agree; even z-BD is pretty meh with lele blocking priority and stuff like ferro walling it and koko blowing it up in 1 hit.

    DragonWhale: B+

    NOVED: agree, azu is kinda meh.

    Psynergy: Azumarill is good but also not. Honestly can't see myself using this much, it's so much more difficult to set up on stuff and Tapu Lele just kills its primary sweeping tool. It's not a bad Pokemon in the current meta but it also doesn't really stand out all that much. As a Blaziken check it's also outclassed by Tapu Fini which doesn't take nearly 50% switching into High Jump Kick. Definitely drop to B+.

    Solerme: B+

    Theorymon: Sure, I think Tapu Fini and Primarina are usually the better Water / Fairy mons, and Tapu Lele screws up the Belly Drum set pretty hard.


    Cresselia: A- -> A
    Show Hide
    cant say: A

    chemcoop: disagree; cress is more viable than in earlier SM seasons with both hera and mawile available, but rise in fast taunt usage/z-moves mean it can't take as many hits. Plus cress is the biggest definition of set-up fodder for mimi.

    DragonWhale: A-

    NOVED: disagree, dont think this thing is that great. insane bulk isnt needed this gen. same reason i think cune isnt as good anymore. too passive and super bulk isnt a necessity with pbond nerfed.

    Psynergy: I'm a fan of Cresselia but I don't think it's good enough for A, it has the Suicune problem of being too passive and Thunder Wave being nerfed makes it less effective than it used to be. Aegislash is still around and now we have Mimikyu and Z-Moves making its job tougher. It's still a cool Lele check and has awesome bulk and utility for Trick Room Megas but I don't think it's prominent enough to be A.

    Solerme: A

    Theorymon: Pretty neutral on this. I guess we could put it in the same place as Suicune since its passive, but I'm leaning a bit towards an upgrade because I think Lunar Dance and Trick Room put Cresselia above Suicune now a days.


    Nihilego: B+ -> A-
    Show Hide
    cant say: A-

    chemcoop: agree; strong anti-meta pick that can clean up weakened teams late game. scarf = zard killa, which is all important rn.

    DragonWhale: A-

    NOVED: yeah, this thing is super good at taking shit out with the scarf set.

    Psynergy: Definitely one of the better UBs, I can't say I see this thing enough but I've liked it every time I've used it. The STAB combination has glaring weaknesses but with a great Speed tier and often overlooked special bulk it's not as hard to switch in as it might look. Great revenge killer and a neat Stealth Rock setter, and being a special Rock-type with Poison STAB is a very useful niche.

    Solerme: i agree for mainly one reason: it can stop some of the A+ mons pretty easily.

    Theorymon: Hell yeah, Nihileglo can screw up a lot of common mons like the Charizards, so this has my vote!


    Alolan Marowak: B+ -> B
    Show Hide
    cant say: B

    chemcoop: disagree; only because it is mish mish and should go to B- or C once we get it set up. B is still too high lol

    DragonWhale: B

    NOVED: agree, this thing sucks.

    Psynergy: This probably isn't even B now that I think about it, honestly should be as low as B- but lower than that might be too harsh. It has a niche as a strong Trick Room attacker that isn't a Mega but it's not very bulky so it still takes a lot of damage switching into stuff that isn't resisted. The Lightning Rod niche is cool but there's better options if all you need is the Electric immunity. Still an ok Pokemon but it's not really a stand-out choice.

    Solerme: yeah definitely, might even be B-.

    Theorymon: Honestly I'd go even lower and put it to B-. It's usable, but post bank had made it much more niche in the singles world imo.


    Xurkitree: B -> B-
    Show Hide
    cant say: B-

    chemcoop: agree; needs too much support to set up z-hypno, the only viable set imo, and even then it can get countered by any decently fast scarf user.

    DragonWhale: B

    NOVED: B-

    Psynergy: Yeah there's way better Electric-types, Tail Glow is cool since it makes heavy bulk sets an option and it's a potentially dangerous Choice Scarf user, but that Speed tier sucks and it needs a lot of investment to be any bit bulky. Z-Hypnosis is also awful, never use this.

    Solerme: B-

    Theorymon: Totally, hell I'd argue that C+ is ok for Xurkitree too. It's not a very consistent Pokemon sadly.


    Mimikyu: A+ -> S
    Show Hide
    cant say: S

    chemcoop: disagree; mimikyu is really good, but lacks the physical bulk, speed, and/or raw power to make it S like chomper back in the day.

    DragonWhale: S

    NOVED: disagree, i think mimikyu is great but i dont think its s rank good. and ive used this a lot, both the SD sets and some of the curse sets. i just dont see this thing as a meta running powerhouse. its just a nice, splashable mon. not s material imo

    Psynergy: Nah this isn't S tier, and that's not my Mimikyu skepticism speaking. It's very splashable and blanket checks a lot of stuff but it doesn't really excel at any one role. It needs the Z-Move and Swords Dance to be remotely threatening offensively, and utility sets suffer from wanting more moveslots but not being able to use them without giving up necessary STAB moves. It's super splashable and has a broken ability but if Garchomp isn't S for being splashable I don't think Mimikyu is either.

    Solerme: Definitely S. Mimikyu is the new chomp in this gen.

    Theorymon: This one is tough, since Mimikyu isn't on the level of say... Garchomp or Mega Kangaskhan's reign from last gen. However, its so splashable but I don't really mind if we bump it up regardless.


    Volcarona: A -> A+
    Show Hide
    cant say: A+

    chemcoop: disagree; can still sweep teams, but 4x rock weakness means SR can easily turn a 2hko into an ohko. unlike zard y, which also has a 4x SR weakness, volc doesn't carry a portable choice specs with it, so it often needs a set-up turn to blow stuff away whereas zard just starts clicking attack buttons.

    DragonWhale: A+

    NOVED: bit iffy on if this is really A+ good but its def a threatening mon, im ok with A+.

    Psynergy: I'm inclined to say yes but I'm going to say no to this one. Volcarona is almost Blaziken tier in how versatile it can be but it can't passively boost its Speed and has awful physical bulk. Fire/Bug isn't exactly amazing this gen especially with Cresselia falling out of favor a bit, and while it has strong coverage options it needs a Quiver Dance to make use of them effectively. Still an awesome Pokemon but I don't think it's quite on the level of Blaziken or Charizard Y.

    Solerme: A+

    Theorymon: Totally, this is the other big reason to run Stealth Rock imo!


    Mega Metagross: A- -> A
    Show Hide
    cant say: A

    chemcoop: agree; solid mon, dual punch is godly with electric terrain.

    DragonWhale: A

    NOVED: yeah this things solid.

    Psynergy: Yeah why didn't we do this sooner? Metagross is fantastic and the increased viability of Thunder Punch makes it more dangerous. It can't cover everything at once but with that bulk and Speed that doesn't always matter until it's too late for the opponent to do anything about it. Its also a cool Lele check which is huge these days.

    Solerme: A

    Theorymon: With the rise of double punch, Mega Metagross is much more unpredictable than it used to be, so I'm for this!


    Zapdos: B+ -> A-
    Show Hide
    cant say: A-

    chemcoop: has a great role as probably the best mence counter in the game and solid coverage to take on "switch-ins" like ferrothorn and landog too.

    DragonWhale: A-

    NOVED: sure, not super crazy about this bird but a- isnt that high either. dont really mind where this goes

    Psynergy: Zapdos isn't what it was last gen but it's still an excellent defensive Pokemon that benefits from its biggest competition in Thundurus being nerfed. It has great utility for offensive teams and its movepool lets it chunk away at a lot of threats even without much investment, but I can't agree with it being any higher than A- either. It's a great mon but it's not as easy to fit onto a team as I'd like it to be.

    Solerme: A-

    Theorymon: Not really sure since I barely see Zapdos. I think B+ is a fine place for it however.


    Excadrill: A -> A+
    Show Hide
    cant say: A+

    chemcoop: disagree; too much intimidate and/or non-grounded mons. scarf mold breaker is cool, sand is cool, but both are rather predictable in team preview and can be played around reasonably easily.

    DragonWhale: A

    NOVED: nah, sand dependant and even then it can be stopped. lando-t is rising like all hell. A is good, i dont see this as A+ solid.

    Psynergy: Everyone else has covered it, great sand sweeper but there's too much Landorus-T around. It's an easy stomper against unprepared teams but most solid teams can play around it fairly well. Scarf Mold Breaker is really cool for Mimikyu but that can also be played around, this is fine in A.

    Solerme: It's a solid antimeta call, but A is fine for it imo

    Theorymon: Think this should stay at A, too many Landorus-T and Mega Charizard Y imo.


    Breloom: A- -> A
    Show Hide
    cant say: A

    chemcoop: disagree; too predictable, spore spam gets stopped by electric/misty terrain, and too slow to just sweep. once its sash goes, it's dead. Despite that, still has a lot of utility and can open up things for a sweeper later. A is good for this guy.

    DragonWhale: A

    NOVED: nah, spores amazing but A+ is a crazy jump for a slow and predictable thing. i'd be okay with A tho.

    Psynergy: I made a typo here while listing the noms, this should actually say A and not A+ but I'm not totally convinced it should be A either. It's super annoying though and even with Terrain around that's only an issue if they have Koko or Fini, and in those cases Breloom usually forces them to bring it which can be abused. I can get behind A for this but I'm still not 100% convinced.

    Solerme: i'm good with Loom in A

    Theorymon: I think bumping it up to A is better. Breloom has proven it can deal with terrain abuse, but its speed is still a big problem to overcome.


    Mega Heracross: Unranked -> B+/A-/A
    Show Hide
    cant say: think Hera is maybe only B but wouldn't argue against B+

    chemcoop: A- is solid. Loses to common mons like both zards and mence outside of TR and needs too much support to bring out its full potential to be A. Under TR though, this thing is hard to stop and good skill link coverage means it can OHKO/2HKO most things.

    DragonWhale: A-

    NOVED: im cool with A-. nothing switches in on this thing and it can tear in TR.

    Psynergy: I think Heracross is fine in B+ but no higher than A- just because there's a ton of threats that Heracross hates dealing with this gen. It completely stomps on stall and few things like switching into it, but it needs the team support to work well, whether it's Trick Room or Thunder Wave support. I think A- is fair though, it has the usage to back it up and Skill Link utility is always excellent.

    Solerme: This is a hard one, i can say that it's not B+, but i'm not sure about A either. I'd say A- for now

    Theorymon: I think A is a good place for Mega Heracross right now, it's pretty good but things gotta settle a bit imo!


    Changes:
    Mega Charizard Y moves from A to A+
    Suicune moves from A to A-
    Rotom-H and Rotom-W move from A- to B+
    Garchomp moves from S to A+
    Azumarill moves from A- to B+
    Nihilego moves from B+ to A-
    Alolan Marowak moves from B+ to B-
    Xurkitruee moves from B to B-
    Volcarona moves from A to A+
    Mega Metagross moves from A- to A
    Zapdos moves from B+ to A-
    Breloom moves from A- to A
    Mega Heracross moves from UR to A-
    Boyeraj17 and kamikaze like this.
  3. dogknees

    dogknees

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    Mar 29, 2016
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    I don't know why Lele is sitting at S, and at this point I'm too afraid to ask
    Psynergy likes this.
  4. cant say

    cant say
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Global Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Battle Spot Leader

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    So I brought up the S rank for discussion amongst our "council" because Lele being the only S mon seems so wrong to me. We're not trying to say Lele is the best mon in the tier but it definitely looks like that. My preferred solution is to move more up to S rank, but some of us would prefer to drop Lele and have no Pokemon in S for now.

    The case for no mons in S (not to be confused with removing the S rank altogether) was that the meta is pretty well balanced right now and nothing is straight up dominating / omnipresent enough to warrant being there.

    If you look at the description for S rank mons though, I believe Lele (and others) fit that description pretty well. They're also better than some of the A+ mons and moving them all into the same rank would mean looking at some A+ mons to drop to A.

    So in saying that, I would like to propose Mimikyu > S, Mega Salamence > S, and Landorus-T > A+. When we were talking about this as a council I used Lando-T as an example of an S mon but didn't realise it was only in A lol.

    I also believe we're looking at adding a C rank, would people be in favour of that? There are a lot of gimmicky / niche mons that aren't on here that could be added to that, as well as some B- mons being dropped to it. Let us know!
  5. Kanon90

    Kanon90

    Joined:
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    Nominating Entei from UR to B/B+

    While it has maybe one or two effective sets(AV one being the most dangerous) the rise in usage of pokemon like Volcarona , Zard-Y makes its AV set even more relevant beating 1vs1 the aforementioned threats plus quite a few other A rank mons like Celesteela , Thundurus-T , Mega Mawile , Aegislash etc
    Having the best fire move in its arsenal even Entei's counters fear switching in carelessly. The most used pokemon around Mimikyu has a high 50% chance of getting screwed over by Sacred Fire simultaneously losing disguise and getting burned ruining some of its common SD sets.

    It's not paradise for Entei though, Sacred Fire might help him against its counters a little by still he gets earthquake-d so to say by a lot of common pokes running rampant in the format. Also with the rise of Primarina and its literal Z-nuke even Assault Vest can't save Entei. Its fellow legendary beast Suicune and the new addition of Tapu Fini increase Entei's headaches noticeably.

    First time nominating so I am still little rough on the edges :)
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
    dogknees likes this.
  6. ThickFatAzumarill

    ThickFatAzumarill

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    Jun 22, 2016
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    78
    Nominating Primarina to A

    While it has lackluster physical bulk and speed, Prima is a really powerful threat. Unless your name is Ferrothorn or Toxapex, nothing switches in confortably (unless in a resisted hit), and Oceanic Operetta is one of the most powerful Z-Moves in the game, with the advantage of not needing an unreliable move for its base form (looking at you, Hydro Pump). Prima is an excellent TR abuser, and possibly the best user of the starter mons' non-HA (Torrent-boosted hits coming from this is no joke).
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
  7. SJMistery

    SJMistery

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    I can't believe Mega Sally is not S. That thing can easily beat up every legal pokemon in BSS by himself! That thing is essentialy a mini-Mega Rayquaza, and has been S on the Uber tierlists since the beginning. Why is it not S or even S+?
  8. NOVED

    NOVED
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    You can't compare a 6v6 metagame to 3v3. Two completely different metas.

    There's no doubt mence is a fantastic pokemon but in a much more aggressive metagame it's not dominant enough to where it can go straight to S without some actual discussion. There's a lot that holds mence back here like faster fairy types that make it hard to excel, mimikyu being really common and an easy revenge killer, lots of bulky things that are able to take it on like p2. BSS isnt as kind to mence in 3v3 when you only have 2 other options to deal with their mence checks.

    That said, it's still a great mon despite the handful of tough matchups. I actually nom'd mence for S rank a while back but i'm actually a _little_ torn on it. I'd say its definitely the best mega at least. The mixed attacking sets are incredibly hard for almost any team to switch in to, and DD can take some games away and scts as a nice blaziken check with roost. I think S is pretty reasonable. (Def not S+ tho)

    As for mimikyu, we just recently talked about in the last council vote and I feel pretty much the same way. I'd say its a solid A+. Its low attack can make it fall short pretty often when you dont find ideal scenarios.
    ThickFatAzumarill likes this.
  9. bnhershy

    bnhershy

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    I agree with ThickFatAzumarill on moving Primarina to A. While it can't effectively be run as a physical wall like Tapu Fini can, it packs way more of a punch and obviously Oceanic Operetta can blow mons back.

    Choice Specs are a perfectly viable option if you'd rather have your Z-crystal on a different team member and even surprise an opposing Ferrothorn with a possible HP-Fire OHKO.

    Additionally, Primarina can function as a surprise stall-breaker using a substitute/wonder room set.

    Access to priority in aqua jet is a nice option as well to win those one-on-ones vs sash users without priority of their own.

    I think Primarina should absolutely be in the same tier as Fini.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
    greilmercenary9 and 4lexander3 like this.
  10. 4lexander3

    4lexander3

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    We still need to rank The Hoenn-Starter Megas.
    Furthermore I'd agree with putting more mons to S. I don't feel like Lele is that good anymore because everyone just runs a steeltype to check it whereas you can't just run one type of mon to counter for example Mimikyu.

    The main things I'd change are: add Mmence and Mimikyu to S, Landog to A+ and Primarina to A.
  11. cant say

    cant say
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    This sounds like more of a case for Lele to drop back to A+. Would you want those mons to still move up to S if Lele dropped?
  12. Daemul

    Daemul

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    I wouldn't have any mon in S tier at the moment since like it's been said, seeing a mon in S tier would imply to people that they are the best or metagame defining like Lando-T is in Smogon's OU. I don't think any mon meets that criteria atm, nobody stands head and shoulders above the rest.

    So yeah, drop Lele down and leave S tier empty for now.
  13. bnhershy

    bnhershy

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    I agree with having an empty S tier. I don't think any of the A+ mons should move up to S since they're all relatively equal in their threat level and as it's been pointed out, Lele shouldn't be up there either.

    Just like the other A+ pokemon, you can adequately prepare for it.
  14. Psynergy

    Psynergy My turn!
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    One thing I'd like to clarify real quick, something being in S rank shouldn't necessarily mean it's more difficult to check than other prominent Pokemon or that it has an overwhelming/unhealthy presence in the format. I also don't think the lack of anything being in S rank means the meta is more balanced either. One can similarly argue that without an S rank the A+ stuff is technically just S rank but with a different name. The way I see a Pokemon in S rank is that it's something that is very easy to fit onto a team and is almost never a bad choice; something that will always perform well on a team and can fill a variety of roles (and fill those roles well), even if the Pokemon isn't necessarily more difficult to check than Pokemon in A+.

    I'm not saying this because I believe there needs to be an S rank though. Just something to take into consideration when discussing this or nominating something for S rank.
  15. Reviloja753

    Reviloja753

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    I agree that we need at least something else in S tier. I say Mimikyu, as it has a variety of sets in BSS. Only Steel types can really handle Mimikyu, similar to how only Ice types can handle Lando-T in OU (Not that BSS and OU are similar). Thusly, I think Mimikyu should be S.

    Also, please make a C tier. I want it plz.
  16. NOVED

    NOVED
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    I'd like to say my own opinions about S rank being empty or not. Firstly, I think S rank being empty would be a fine thing and actually mentioned this in our council discussion. I don't think we should remove S rank by any means, just leave it there and have it empty. This is of course, only if we decide as a community that Tapu Lele drops to A+ and no other mons rising. If we decide that some mons should rise i'm also okay with that, I even said earlier I could see mence at S. So what I really mean is that we shouldn't try to force anything into S if the community doesn't agree on it collectively.

    I agree with Psynergy's description of S rank for sure as well. In fact what he said is really close to the description in the OP and I agree with all those descriptions for each rank. And to address the argument of "if there's nothing in S then all the A+ mons are S", I would say that would imply that S rank simply means "the best pokemon" and A+ would be "the second best pokemon" collectively. And I disagree with that. The ranks aren't meant to be the best, second best, etc, they are what the descriptions say. So just because the highest rank with pokemon in it would happen to be A+, it doesn't mean they auto bump to S, because that's not what the ranks mean.

    I agree that something being S rank or not shouldn't be based on the other A+ or even other S ranks, and it doesn't mean the meta is more or less balanced. We should just be deciding whether or not a Pokemon fits this description(or even any other description of S rank if we want to modify it):
    And if we happen to decide that no Pokemon fit that description, and better fit the description of A+, I think it's totally ok to leave it empty.
  17. Koekiekoekje

    Koekiekoekje

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    First of all I want to say that the VR-list is very helpful to me at least. There are -in my opinion- just a few minor issues regarding the voting system.
    Volcarona from A- to A+ is a fairly big shift. Now I'm curious: what change in the mètagame (this is BSS so there are no changes in the mètagame) made this Pokémon super good all for a sudden?
    Two of the seven VR-council members explain why they think this shift shouldn't happen. On the other hand, the other five members just type 'A+' without further explanation which makes me wondering what the motivation was behind their choices. Due to a lack of arguments supporting this promotion, I'm not yet convinced that A+ is the right place for Volcarona.
    My point: it should be obligated to give reasoning behind voting as a VR-council member, even if its just to show us that you know what you're doing and to prevent people from immediately nominating Volcarona back to A- again. Right now I can't tell if some of you are just parroting each other.
  18. dogknees

    dogknees

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    There's nothing really wrong wit parroting each other if they share the same thoughts; what else are you meant to say if someone before you said the exact same thing?
  19. Koekiekoekje

    Koekiekoekje

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    'Share the same thoughts'? What thoughts? "A+ for sure" isn't a thought/reasoning; its a vote. And the entire point I wanted to make in my post is that there should be more arguments supporting a vote.
  20. Jhon

    Jhon
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    Both here and in Doubles you take VR stuff too seriously.
    I personally don't think A- to A+ is that big of a leap, I generally just see all of A as being fairly close to each other.
    Anyway, to address the snippet I've quoted: A ban (or similar rule change) does not need ot occur for the metagame to change. As people discover, try out and develop new ideas the usage of key pokemon, and specific sets of each, will shift about. These are changes in the metagame.
    Also we only get major information dumps about the high ladder at the end of each season, so we can see quite dramatic shifts sometimes.
    NOVED likes this.
  21. Koekiekoekje

    Koekiekoekje

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    It was more of a retorical question. I know that sometimes Pokémon drastically rise in usage/viability when people find out good sets (Bulky Seismic Toss Mega Kangaskhan Doubles OU for instance). Its just that I like to be informed on why Volcarona is good right now. I still not know that and thats why reasoning is necessary behind voting.
    I see that people misinterpret my posts as offensive, but I don't mean to be rude. I just try to convince people.
  22. Feesh Squad

    Feesh Squad

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    I'd like to nominate Mega Blaziken-->A+.

    Mega Blaziken is a scary Pokemon to face, with its Speed tier allowing it to run an Adamant nature while still outspeeding the likes of Choice Scarf Lele (Modest) and Lando-T (Adamant) after 1 boost. Similarly, it can take advantage of the switches it forces by using Swords Dance, boosting its power to astronomical levels, allowing it to more easily sweep through most offensive teams. Furthermore, it can run other coverage moves such as Stone Edge for Flying-types, Knock Off for Ghost- and Psychic-types, although majority are already hit hard by Flare Blitz, or it can use Baton Pass to give Speed boosts to its allies, allowing them to sweep.

    The only reason I am hesitating for a higher ranking (lol S) is that it is pretty frail, leaving it horribly weak to powerful priority, and also takes up a Mega slot. Furthermore, if it forgoes Swords Dance, it has almost no chance of breaking through its checks such as Zapdos, Suicune, Cresselia, and Hippowdon, most of which are common on more bulky offence teams. However, Mega Blaziken's teammates usually have methods of deal with these Pokemon (Lele helps with priority while wallbreakers w/special moves break through defensive checks), which allows this crazy bird to be a threatening presence in BSS.
    Chrono Prodigy likes this.
  23. Solerme

    Solerme Carl Jungoos
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    Koekiekoekje it is pretty fair to ask, and asking why we decided to move volcarona is a legit question. Though you missed again a chance to be a good user with that caustic attitude of yours.

    Before posting the votes, we discuss a lot so sometimes that "A+" is the result of a discussion about the pokemon that has already ended. Also, when someone gives a good opinion about a pokemon that could ascend or fall, there is no reason to not just simply agree (if you do agree) without adding anything else..

    Anyhow, since you asked, i'm going to try to give you an answer here as well:
    Volcarona is, and has always been, a fantastic pokemon. The reason why it is A+ it's because it can close games by itself alone after just a Quiver Dance. Also, thanks to the Z moves, its great move pool, and the prevalence of Steel pokemon to answer to the whole new fairies of this new generation, in gen7 Volcarona it's even stronger. You can never be sure to have a safe switch in / safe check since it can fire off things such as Z Solar Beam, Z Hurricane and such, not to mention how ridiculously over powered is its Z Bug Buzz at +1 and with Swarm activated.
    A pokemon that can influence games so deeply and force every team to have at least a decent check for it it's worth it the A+ spot. This is why we've given it that rank.

    Feel free to ask anything else you want to ask, just remember to improve your attitude when posting.
    cant say likes this.
  24. cant say

    cant say
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    First of all, when we originally voted we didn't know Psynergy was going to quote us here for you guys to see. He mentioned that he was thinking of it but that was after we had voted and were discussing the new thread. If we knew our votes would be public before writing them (and that they would be scrutinised so harshly by people like you) we probably would have put some more thought into them. Also, for you to accuse us of parroting each other, and suggest that we are obliged to show more reasoning to prove we are worthy of a spot on the council is incredibly rude.

    Secondly, just because there are no Pokemon banned from the format / previously banned ones allowed like Smogon formats do, doesn't mean the metagame doesn't change. To suggest that it's completely static is incredibly stupid. You say yourself that people find new uses for certain things and these create trends and Pokemon become more common / viable. This is exactly what happened with Volcarona, when we placed it in A- pokebank had just dropped and it wasn't seen/used as much and we were sort of shaky on its placement but thought A- was accurate. Since then, Volcarona has become a huge threat with the myriad of Z moves it can use, several of which completely blow by its would-be checks. It's been a focal point on many top-ranked teams and is overall a great Pokemon in the format.

    Finally, try to be a little more respectful when posting here from now on. Even if you make fair points, you're likely to be ignored for the way in which you make them.
    Psynergy, Cainchin and ethan06 like this.
  25. chemcoop

    chemcoop
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    Nobody is saying that adding explanations ruins the thread, and cant say even admitted that some of the other VR council members probably would have put reasoning into their votes if they knew it would be public.

    With regards to "parroting" offending people: no this is not true, like dk said, you can only say so much about a certain Pokémon's overall effectiveness in a tier. Unless two council members strongly disagree with each other, the reasoning is going to basically be the same.

    What people are calling you out on is this:
    Everybody on the VR council has been playing Battle Spot for a long time and has a lot of experience in the tier. You have no right to suggest that we need to "show you that we know what we're doing" because we wouldn't be on the council if we didn't.

    If you disagree with some of the council's decisions, please write a respectful, well-thought out post that explains why you disagree with a certain 'mon's metagame viability.

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