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Resource BSS Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Battle Spot Singles' started by Psynergy, Jun 7, 2017.

  1. Doobzi

    Doobzi
    BSS Tour Champion

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    Seconded! Been using him to great success lately. I think he should atleast be in B+. Can beat nihilego, tapu koko, heatran and mega-gengar one on one in addition to all that is said. Bulldoze and flame charge are great that way. Stone edge has shaky accuracy but Entie absolutely eats volc and charY. Can take repeated hits and still come out on top. Plus he has sacred fire which makes potential switch ins fearful of burn including but not limited to t-tar, gyarados, landorus-t and hippo. I think it seriously is ahead of each pokemon in B and B- and for that reason B+ is the only fitting answer!
    Feesh Squad and greilmercenary9 like this.
  2. Olijolly

    Olijolly

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    Going back to the actual nominations, I'd like to get in on the circle jerk (if there is one) and say that I believe Mega Salamance should potentially go to S even though I do think it isn't much better than some of the other A+ pokemons (i.e. mimikyu and tapu Lele if it comes down from S). I don't find it to be as dominant as I want it to be for mega mence to be a clear S-rank candidate. Still, I find mega salamence powerful/dominant enough with decent raw power, amazing bulk, and surprisingly decent versatility (dd sets, mixed, and even special...to a certain degree) to be at least given a discussion.
  3. Daemul

    Daemul

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    To actually contribute to the actual discussion, I agree with the nominations of Primarina going from A- to A.

    The Mermaid exceeds my expectations with every passing season, she just keeps getting better and better no matter what megas get introduced or how the meta shifts. The fact that she's the designated Gliscor killer(unless you want to PP stall with Celesteela) makes her even better.

    On Gliscor, I think he should move from B+ to A- or even A. The Scorpions presence in the metagame growers the higher up the ladder you go, and it's amazing just how cancerous he is. I've never faced a more annoying mon.
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  4. SJMistery

    SJMistery

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    I have been testing Fly Nite (to be precise, an updated version of the old BW SubDDnite with the same EVs but some Defense sacrifised to outspeed Weavile at +1, that ran rampant on BW BSS), and it has turned VERY effective. Haze, Protect and Whirlwind are rare instances on 3v3 outside of Aegislash, and you can save up the Z-Fly for most of them or in the case of Protect defensive walls, simply keep spamming Fly until they run out of PP, not to mention that in the reare case you see a super-defensive team likely to carry many of them, you can bench him and send a wallbreaker instead.

    It should be A at worst
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
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  5. Psynergy

    Psynergy Guaranteed Crits
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    Votes are in for this round of nominations, this includes everything mentioned up to this post. There are a few changes that we voted on that weren't nominated in the thread as well, and these votes justified the addition of a C rank.

    Let me be clear, C rank is set aside solely for niche viable Pokemon that have proven success on more than just a single team. Don't use C rank as a way to nominate your favorite Pokemon that you've gotten to work on ladder just once or twice, if you're nominating something you haven't seen much of please back it up with more than just a sentence. This applies to all nominations but especially when nominating something uncommon, just saying "I've gotten to 1800 on cart with this thing" isn't going to convince us without more explanation.

    Mimikyu: A+ -> S

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    cant say: S. When I think of the S rank I think of what defines the metagame. Last gen it was Kanga + Garchomp, with Mega Gengar and Thundurus being ridiculous threats on their own. At the moment in this gen, when I think of Battle Spot I think of Mimikyu. It might not be over the top powerful like Mega Salamence or Blaziken, but its popularity (both in general and at the top of the ladder) and often game winning Disguise ability make it one of the most viable choices for a team. It kinda reminds me of ORAS Garchomp in a way, it's almost everywhere and incredibly splashable on a team.

    chemcoop: AGREE: Definitely pretty torn about this. I agree that it needs boosts to really act as an offensive sweeper, but it's so splashable that an offensive variant can fit on almost any team - something that is typical of an S rank mon. WoW or Twave sets can catch opponents off guard and cripple offensive monsters like Char X or Salamence while Curse variants can weaken defensive pivots and dedicated walls. Finally, Disguise allows it to act as an effective TR setter and can allow slow megas like Mawile and Heracross to plow through an opposing team. Although Mimikyu itself lacks immediate power, Z-moves, an OP ability, and sheer splashability/set variety make Mimikyu worth of S rank.

    DragonWhale: A+. really close to S but at the same time not good enough for it

    NOVED: A+. My opinion of this is pretty much the same as the last vote. Mimi's a really strong mon but I feel like it doesn't hold up that well after Disguise is broken. I personally don't really see it as meta defining, i think most teams can do well against Mimi pretty naturally. It does its job well but it doesn't feel S rank good to me.

    Psynergy: I think cant say has a point about Mimikyu being metagame defining but I still don't think it's that great of a mon. It's way too dependent on boosts to be in a very average Speed tier, but it is a very safe revenge killer. Wouldn't mind it moving up but I don't think it's S rank.

    Solerme: I'm pretty good with this. We had Garchomp S in the last gen for a reason: its EXTREME versatility. I feel that Mimikyu is like that this gen. It can do everything: sweep / support / control the speed. Not to mention its ability's power...
    I'm definitely supporting its switch to S.

    Theorymon: Leaning towards S. This one is tough because I don't think its quite on the same level as Mega Salamence or Mega Blaziken, but its diversity and excellent revenge killing is what puts it at the edge for me currently.


    Mega Salamence: A+ -> S
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    cant say: S. The meta becoming generally more special attacking than last gen has really helped Mence, since now it's harder to just bring a physically bulky mon and check it because you usually want something specially bulky too. So you're then either bringing one solid offensive mon to a game or deciding which bulky mon to bring (or using one mixed bulk mon which is average at checking everything). If the opposing team lacks a dedicated physical wall then this just gets out of hand. Also the complete nerf of Thunder Wave dropping Thundurus to obscurity really helps Mence since Thund was its best check.

    chemcoop: AGREE: Great pre-mega ability, incredible bulk, impressive damage output, and a solid speed tier. Hard to prepare for in team preview due to the variety of sets: standard DD, sp. def, phys def even, special, mixed, etc. Very splashable and powerful, and certainly one of the most metagame defining mons. If your team doesn't have 2 solid ways of dealing with Mega Mence, you will be swept.

    DragonWhale: S. best mon atm

    NOVED: S. This thing is really good and imo got better with Mega Blaziken released. I think special/mixed sets are fantastic and DD sets are obviously amazing as well. I think the fact that it can work as a really good switchin to common things with its bulk and intimidate and perform offensive roles just as well makes Mence are really top tier mon and I'd say its deserving of S.

    Psynergy: I've said before I think that if any Mega is S rank worthy, it's Salamence. Sure it's not hard to check but it's basically never a bad Mega for your team unless you already find yourself super Ice and Fairy weak. Being sniped by HP Ice mons is annoying but it's such a strong mon that even in a bad matchup it'll likely still get good damage in.

    Solerme: Mence wasn't S in gen6 imo and isn't S in this gen even more. First of all its Aerilate nerf has limitated the sets it can use: the full specially offensive one for example isn't THAT great (even though it's viable). Also it has too many checks that are on the list of the common pokemon. It's strong and it can be game changer, but i feel it's pretty far from being S. To be honest this gen i'm even unsure that Mence could be a better pick than Gyarados or Charizard as a Mega.


    Landorus-T: A -> A+
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    cant say: A+. Staple of bulky offense aka arguably the best playstyle. Super versatile when it comes to checking a plethora of things, Intimidate lets it check pretty much all physical threats, and special bulk / Assault Vest / FIWAM berry lets it check everything else. Awesome setter of Stealth Rock and forces switches at the same time which makes good use of them. Offensive sets are also super underrated, Flyinium Z is pretty sick, and it has Swords Dance / Rock Polish / Rock Tomb / Gravity etc etc. We'll be talking about this for S soon enough.

    chemcoop: AGREE: Easy decision. Intimidate support, solid offensive rocks setter, speed tier where + nature outruns neutral natured 100s and Tapu Lele (so Jolly Scarf can check Lele, Zard X, etc.), and ability to fill a wide variety of roles. AV, Scarf, Sash, Sitrus/50% berry, Z-move are all viable items for it, making it to hard to prepare for in team preview. Can tank hits or do an unbelievable amount of damage with its 145 base Attack. Great mon.

    DragonWhale: A+. honestly it's better than chomp since the beginning of sm

    NOVED: A+. Yeah this thing is easily one of the most splashable mons in the tier imo, if not the most splashable. Good pivot, can set rocks, nice ground immunity, and can use a variety of sets. Solid A+.

    Psynergy: Definitely, if it's not Garchomp, this is likely what takes its place on my teams. They fill most of the same roles but Intimidate alone lets it handle more defensive sets better, and those are much more valuable than they were in ORAS. The lack of a Fairy weakness also helps it a lot more this gen.

    Solerme: Yep. It has surprised me how this thing raised in popularity (for a reason.). I've been using it a lot too and the support it gives to the team (rocks, rock tomb, intimidate, typing) it's huge. It's versatile and spreads a lot of sets, from the physically defensive, to the assault vest specially defensive one.. It can be even offensive itself if using a Z set.
    To be fair, this thing is even close to be S. It is not, but it's close.


    Tapu Lele: S -> A+
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    cant say: A+. People have finally figured out how to check it so it doesn't just 3-0 anymore like it was doing early on. It's still the premier revenge killer in the meta and the utility that Psychic Terrain provides for offensive teams is really good.

    chemcoop: AGREE: Prominence of bulky steels like Aegislash, Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Celesteela put a lot of pressure on Lele at team preview, especially since the majority of Leles are choiced. The usage stats reflect this increase in steels, with Lele falling from 4 last season to 7 right now. While it does still do a ton of damage and can function as a late game cleaner, the rise in usage of counters and checks has lessened Lele's effectiveness.

    DragonWhale: A+. Gets stopped a lot now, esp with mega ken.

    NOVED: A+. I think there's a lot of good counterplay to Lele. Mimi's high usage also tends to be a little annoying for Leles. It's no doubt a good mon but I think A+ is a better fit than S.

    Psynergy: I still think this is S rank worthy, it's still a stupid wallbreaker that can still break stuff even with a Choice Scarf, and with Psychic Terrain it really becomes a matter of "can this live a hit and kill back," which also makes switching in dangerous. It's not impossible to check since there's so many good Steels that Lele can't account for all at once, but it's an easy stomper against unprepared teams.

    Solerme: I'm not sure on this. I feel like lele is still a threat, but somehow it doesn't feel to S me. This is kinda subjective to be fair, cause again i'm totally not sure.
    Trying to be objective, its terrain is great and when it comes to fire power lele is probably second to no one.
    Though Lele isn't that hard to check, like you don't need "that Lele dedicated counter" like it was in the prebank meta, so i'm calling for A+ for now, even because i feel that for a sweeper it is a little harder to achieve the S tier, compared to a pokemon (such as Mimikyu) that can play other roles as well.


    Entei: UR -> B/B+
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    cant say: B+. Lots of competition with other Fire-types, however its role as a bulky wallbreaker is pretty unique to it. Sacred Fire is borked too.

    chemcoop: B+: Sacred Fire can come in super clutch and it has great overall stats/bulk. Definitely not the best fire type in the game by a long shot, but I think on the right team it can do quite well, which is the textbook definition of a B range mon.

    DragonWhale: B. sacred fire is broken but too many better fire types exist and pressure kinda sucks. also no espeed.

    NOVED: B. Definitely a cool pick but I don't often feel like I want it as my fire type during team building.

    Psynergy: Justifying Entei over the many better Fire-types is very difficult, but not impossible. Sacred Fire is broken and its bulk is pretty good for a pure Fire-type, but it's really something you only fit on a team if that particular niche is valuable for you. It's not a bad niche since Fire-types are as dangerous as ever, but I think B is a fair place for it.

    Solerme: B+. Always been a fan of it. Just sacred fire the heck out of your opponent and who cares. It has great BST too. B+ feels right to me.

    Theorymon: I think B is fine for it. Entei can be cool with Sacred Fire spam, but I don't think its the best Fire-type pick for most teams.


    Primarina: A- -> A
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    cant say: A. Wasn't a fan of this because I thought Fini was the best thing ever made but then I started trying it out and realised its pretty sick. Sparkling Aria hitting through Subs is super nice, Oceanic Operetta nukes everything, Perish Song messes up all the obnoxious Eevee / Baton Pass / Glalie teams, Encore is cute, and priority for picking stuff off is great.

    chemcoop: AGREE: There's a reason so many top teams are using this thing: it's good. Functions as a great nuke, and can be EV'd to tank specific hits from powerful physical threats and KO back with Moonblast or Oceanic Operetta. Bops both Zards with Oceanic (takes SBeam from Y and kills with Torrent in Sun), Mence with Moonblast, and potentially kills Mega Blaze with Oceanic into Protect + Aqua Jet.

    DragonWhale: A. Ive been saying this is underranked since prebank and it's not worse postbank

    NOVED: A. This thing's great. Great partner for Trick Room which I think is pretty solid as like a speed control option for bulky offense. Stupidly powerful which I definitely think is a good enough 'niche' to use over Fini. A big damage output is something that shouldn't be undersold imo, i think that's super valuable in 3v3. And i'm not even considering the going through subs thing as that big of a deal but it's a cool plus on top of Prima's already good qualities.

    Psynergy: Nah I still think Primarina gets vastly overrated. Unless I need the power or ability to reliably beat Gliscor I don't see why I should use this over Fini. Those are still acceptable reasons but I still feel Fini is a better fit most of the time.

    Solerme: I agree. You better have a storm drainer otherwise Oceanic Operetta will pretty much do damage to everything, even if resisted (not to mention how ridiculously good is with Torrent activated).
    Now, we know this thing is slow, but the more usage it gets the more the EVs spreads adapt to the meta making it able to live almost any first non supereffective hit. After that, just drop the hammer.


    Mega Blaziken: UR -> A+/S
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    cant say: I agree mega is pretty off the chain good but the unpredictability of z moves / life orb / focus sash etc make mega even better. I would be in favour of having blaziken in general in S than splitting them up, because I think blaziken acts as a whole and mega is just another of its sets (arguably the best one ofc). but for now since we're just talking about mega I'd have to agree that mega is S.

    chemcoop: S: Good god this thing is so strong. Far superior speed tier to non-Mega, ridiculously strong STAB moves coming off a titanic attack stat, and the ability to SD on a predicted switch basically means gg. Access to moves like Tpunch/EQ/Stone Edge basically mean this thing even has the ability to break through its counters after an SD. Also, can provide nice baton pass support and can pass speed to really bulky mons like Fini and Celesteela when a counter or check like Mence is brought in.

    DragonWhale: Yea my vote goes to S mega blaziken now. There's no way something as insane as that shouldn't be S. It's better than mega mence in general.

    NOVED: During teambuilding and playing I've found it pretty difficult to have a secure gameplan against it. Even with Mence really popular which I thought was gonna be a big reason Blaz might be more of an A+, I've seen some running HP Ice on teams with rock support to mitigate that weakness. So I think Blaziken will be a mon that stands out really strong and probably continue to adapt to whatever is happening in the meta. Feels S to me.

    Psynergy: Mega Blaziken is broken and I think it's a Top 3 Mega in the current metagame. I was hesitant at first to call it S despite hyping it up a ton in pre-bank but I don't have any doubts now. The Speed change for Megas helps it a ton since base 100 is infinitely better than 80, and it's just as strong as the usual LO set that basically needs to run Jolly.

    Solerme: Reading you guys and thinking about it, i'm good with giving up on my vote... MBlazi in S.

    Theorymon: I agree with both Blazikens being S.


    Mega Swampert: UR -> B
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    cant say: B. Obviously relies on Pelipper (or Politoed), but with a setter than can slowly U-turn out (instead of relying on Eject Button meaning you can use Damp Rock), added with the new Mega turn order mechanics really helps this thing.

    chemcoop: B: AGREE: It's a solid mega with great bulk/attack and can function as a sweeper under rain. That being said, the prominence of Sun from Zard and sand from Hippo/TTar can make it hard to keep rain up to support Pert, and it gets checked by a number of fairly common mons in the metagame (Ferro, Fini to a degree, hell even Mega Blaze can stop it after a bit of prior chip with HJK).

    DragonWhale: B-. Needs a mega and rain support. cost:benefit is really subpar.

    NOVED: B i guess. Idk much about this thing's viability but I don't think it has that much potential. I think it's as good or worse than Kingdra.

    Psynergy: Mega Swampert is somewhat relevant but it needs support to be worth it. It's a great Mega with said support but I think in general Kingdra is better, especially with the niche of rain sweeper with Thunder Wave immunity becoming less relevant this gen.

    Solerme: Not a fan of it. I'd call even for a B-. It has no priority, it doesn't hit THAT hard and it relies on the weather.
    You can definitely build around it, but again i'd rather use a non mega rain sweeper. This feels like you're wasting your mega slot tbf.


    Mega Sceptile: UR -> C
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    cant say: should this even be ranked? Even C seems too high.

    chemcoop: AGREE: If we're going to create a C tier, this is a good mega to feature in it. Ridiculous speed stat, a solid SpA stat, and Lightning Rod allows it to come in on electric moves from stuff like Koko and Thundy-T and have the opportunity to KO back with Leaf Storm or +1 DPulse. That being said, it has lackluster bulk and is unable to break through bulkier mons like other frail megas such as Blaziken can. Has a niche in that it can outspeed and OHKO Zard X, uninvested Mence, and Koko with either Leaf Storm or DPulse, but it becomes really weak after a Leaf Storm drop, its STABS are resisted by a number of prominent mons in the metagame, and it has no way to beat steels other than begging for Focus Blast to hit. Definitely a C rank mon.

    DragonWhale: people use this thing?

    NOVED: C or unranked. I don't think i'd ever use this seriously.

    Psynergy: If we add a C rank I think this fits here, otherwise this thing sucks. That crazy Speed tier is actually useful but unless you're running a physical set with Earthquake that's not really beating Koko. Its STAB combination is also walled by too many things so if we rank it I think it should be C at best.

    Solerme: Great speed tier, if only it could hit 201 with the Modest nature and not 197....
    The typing is kinda horrible to be fair, both offensively and defensively. It is totally walled by pokemon such as Celesteela or Aegislash, like TOTALLY. C feels right for it, maybe even C-...


    Pyukumuku: B -> B-
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    cant say: B-. Unaware isn't as useful when you're weak to common Z moves (Gigavolt Havock seems to be all over the place), and there's plenty of Taunt going around to combat the lame Eevee etc. teams.

    chemcoop: AGREE: Too passive and overwhelmed in a metagame of Z-moves, Electrics, and Taunt users. Unaware sets are inferior to Haze Toxapex imo.

    DragonWhale: B-

    NOVED: B-. Yeah I think this thing is too passive. Unaware isn't good enough imo to use over Haze Toxapex most of the time. I'd probably almost always rather use Toxapex over this.

    Psynergy: Yeah, I've tried to make this work post-bank but it's hard when so many strong threats are around, Toxapex just does what Pyukumuku does better and Z-Purify is fairly limiting, as fun as it is.

    Solerme: Pyuku is a great tank. Also, it can easily be played in baton pass teams. Now, despite being a pretty uncommon move in gen 6, Taunt is more and more seen in the tier, since Baton Pass strategies can be really scary this gen. Though what still keeps it B imo is its ability Unaware, making it a superb candidate to deal with setup sweepers, in a meta full of them. My vote on B.


    Gastrodon: B -> B-
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    cant say: C+. I'm just not sure what this does in the meta. Plenty of good Grass types to nuke it, just seems like a worse Toxapex and/or Lapras so not sure why you'd choose it unless you were using self-imposed teambuilding restrictions lol Assault Vest Fissure is cool though.

    chemcoop: DISAGREE: Should be C or C+. Why the heck was this thing B in the first place? Gets ruined by Taunt, walled by Grass types like Ferrothorn and other common things like Celesteela, can't check a boosted physical attacker like Mence or Zard X, and gets beat down by switch-ins to strong physical attacks like Blaziken HJK. Something like Fini does its job way better.

    DragonWhale: B-

    NOVED: C. This thing sucks, it's not bulky enough for a bulky mon and doesn't have too many redeeming qualities to make up for that. I don't think the typing is good enough for me to want to run it. I don't really care that it's immune to water cause it isn't often beating Fini or Primarina anyway.

    Psynergy: Gastrodon's usage just keeps on falling, it doesn't really accomplish anything that other bulky Waters don't do better. The Electric immunity is actually a useful niche, but that's really the only thing it has over the other options.

    Solerme: Oh wait, so we do have a viable storm drainer!
    Always liked Gastrodon.
    It is kinda outclassed by other bulky waters, even more now with Prima and Fini offensively and Pyuku, Toxapex defensively, though it has the ground-type by its side, a recovery and an OHKO move. It definitely deserves a rank in the B ranges, but not higher than B- imo.


    Gliscor: B+ -> A/A-
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    cant say: A. If you're slower you can't hurt it, so you switch out and let it get a free sub and now your faster switch in also can't hurt it. This thing is obnoxious, and top players seem to be fitting it on all kinds of teams instead of just the boring stall ones.

    chemcoop: A-: Jhon swears by this thing, and I kinda have to agree. Can Toxic switch-ins and proceed to just sub and protect and sub and protect until something dies. Counters electric spam and even hard counters have to fear unfortunate Guillotine hits. Sub/Tect variants can also PP stall stuff like Celesteela that needs Heavy Slam to bust the sub and has enough bulk to be EV'd to live both special and physical hits. Definitely a mon that deserves to move up.

    DragonWhale: A

    NOVED: A. This thing had a really good showing in the top rated teams last season and it's definitely a solid mon even outside the common stall build. Really good answer to Aegislash + super annoying against anything it's faster than.

    Psynergy: I'm a bit hesitant to say A for this right now but at the very least this should be in A-. Gliscor is really good and Electric-types being better helps a lot. I don't think it's all that much better than last gen but it's definitely better than a B+ threat.

    Solerme: A-. It's one of the most scary pokemon when it comes to stall teams, and it can even be scary in balanced teams. It has great typing and a fantastic ability that can definitely deal with a lot of threats alone (like 80% of the stall pokemon). Plus it gets Guillotine (that is still hurting my feelings). A-, might even be A, but we can move it to A later on i guess.

    Theorymon: A Yeah Gliscor is a huge bastard to fight, its on stall often for a reason.


    Toxapex: B -> B+
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    cant say: B. Weak to Koko / Thund-T, Lele, Lando-T, and a heap of other common mons. Really only works on Stall teams, has its uses on other styles but I think it's worse there. Haze is really cool though which is the main reason to use it over other bulky waters imo.

    chemcoop: DISAGREE: Works on stall teams and can be annoying when paired with something like Bulu, but overall I'm not really a fan. Haze is cool and it's really T H I C C, but that won't save it from stuff like Sub DD Salamence, popular electrics like Koko and Thundy-T, Lele, and fat mons like Ferro. Should stay at B.

    DragonWhale: B+

    NOVED: B+. Great mon on stall and works on the kind of teams Gliscor works on as an annoying toxic staller. And is a good answer to stuff like Blaziken and Charizard X with Haze to keep them in check. The power of toxic stall teams was pretty underrated I think and the 2000+ rated players showed it really works, especially with stuff like Mega Gengar and Mence to compliment them.

    Psynergy: Unsure on this one, but Toxapex is basically a new standard for stall and if Chansey is B+ as a pure stall mon then Toxapex definitely is too. Don't think this should be anywhere above B+ though.

    Solerme: I kinda feel right with having Gastrodon in B-, Pyuku in B, and Toxapex in B+.


    Dragonite: A- -> B+
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    cant say: A-. If you've already got megas and can't fit Mence then this is a really fine alternative. Plenty of surprise factor due to its versatility thanks to a big list of viable Z moves, power with Choice Band, and good old Lum DD.

    chemcoop: AGREE: SR is too popular rn which means Multiscale is basically useless. In the event that Multiscale isn't broken, it can set up a DD on most things and get a kill with its amazing coverage moves or Dragon/Flying Z-Move and ESpeed priority is clutch. I don't really see a reason to use this over Zard X or Mence unless you don't want to use a mega slot.

    DragonWhale: B+

    NOVED: B+. Yeah I don't think this thing is that impressive. I'd rather run like Mence or Flame Charge Zard X. I guess it's cool not taking up a Mega but I haven't seen many people using it to much success.

    Psynergy: Dragonite is still really strong but I sorta agree with this one. Dragon STAB is tough to rely on these days and Flyinium Z can't be relied on too much, but it has the power and bulk to set up and Extreme Speed is a broken move. Wouldn't mind this staying but I can agree with B+ for this.

    Solerme: Stealth Rock is now almost a staple in the tier, and with the introduction of Z moves Multiscale isn't that huge shield anymore. This being said, i'm pretty sure that Dragonite can still be able to Dragon Dance in most of the situation if used properly (even more freely than pokemon like Salamence, without wasting a mega slot). Also since it's not a mega, it is free to run an item such as the Lum or the Z itself (and it can run a lot of them, from Dragonium to Firium to FLynium and so on).
    I'm voting to keep it A-.


    Araquanid: B -> B-
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    cant say: B. Water Bubble is sick and Band / Water Z sets punch big holes. There aren't heaps of amazing Trick Room abusers, so I think this has a solid niche there, especially when paired with Mawile.

    chemcoop: AGREE: Kinda cool on TR, but if you want a water type nuke, just use a TR Primarina set. Lacks the bulk to take a strong neutral physical hit, and while AV Mirror Coat is a neat niche, it doesn't justify B rank imo.

    DragonWhale: B-

    NOVED: B-. Yeah not really the TR mon I want. Also feels way more dependant on TR than other stuff like Primarina and Mega Mawile. I also don't like going too hard on Trick Room with a bunch of slow stuff like this.

    Psynergy: Hm yeah, very cool mon but it's basically just a Fire resist with a good nuke for Mega Mawile TR teams. It can definitely work without Trick Room but I don't recommend it. Araquanid has its use and it's really good at what it does but it only really fits on a specific team archetype.

    Solerme: I'm debating a lot on this. With its superb offensive power and special bulk i'd keep it B to be fair. It even has a decent ability that makes it immune to burn.


    Thundurus: B+ -> B
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    cant say: B. Prankster Thunder Wave isn't as great as it used to be, but it still makes a decent lead for hard setup teams and can check Mega Mence in a pinch. Honestly I think it's niche is the SubToxic set which can put in serious work.

    chemcoop: AGREE: SubToxic is a great niche against unsuspecting teams, but overall there's no real reason to use this over Thundy-T. When Chomper was more popular I could see the argument for wanting the better speed tier to fire off HP Ices but with Chomper's fall to 10 in the usage stats, you might as well just use the way stronger Therian form.

    DragonWhale: B

    NOVED: B. With Chomps usage dropping off really swiftly I don't think you really need this things speed over Thund-T's anymore. Sets that utilize Prankster are cool but not that powerful. B's a good fit.

    Psynergy: I would've said this is B last time if we voted for that, that Speed tier is a very good reason to use this over Thundurus-T but if you don't need that then there's not really a lot of reason to use this beyond SubToxic sets. Not a bad mon by any stretch but that Prankster nerf and the rise of other Electrics hit Thundurus hard.

    Solerme: Thund drop is exceeding too much imo. It isn't either S or A for sure, but it still does what it did before.
    It has a great speed tier, access to a ridiculously good ability, and to moves such as Nasty Plot. Keep it B+.


    Changes:
    Mimikyu moves from A+ to S
    Mega Salamence moves from A+ to S
    Landorus-T moves from A to A+
    Tapu Lele moves from S to A+
    Entei moves from UR to B
    Primarina moves from A- to A
    Mega Blaziken moves from UR to S
    Mega Swampert moves from UR to B
    Mega Sceptile moves from UR to C
    Pyukumuku moves from B to B-
    Gastrodon moves from B to C
    Gliscor moves from B+ to A
    Toxapex moves from B to B+
    Dragonite moves from A- to B+
    Araquanid moves from B to B-
    Thundurus moves from B+ to B
    Vif-Argent, Boehijt, Kanon90 and 10 others like this.
  6. PPB

    PPB

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    Does Ninetales-A really deserve B+? I would think all the weather changers that came out in bank would make it drop...
  7. Moose And Goose

    Moose And Goose

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    So how will the viability rankings thread treat the other niche megas in the role compendium thread with the addition of C rank? Megas such as mega aerodactyl and beedrill don't seem to fit in a vr ranking necessarily, but they are listed as niche megas in the role compendium.
  8. Psynergy

    Psynergy Guaranteed Crits
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    This is something I see come up in a lot of VR threads, but when you see something ranked don't assume it's set in stone. It's not always the case that we firmly agree with a Pokemon's placement, it may simply be that we haven't voted on it before (in this case that's exactly what it is). If you see something ranked in a place you disagree with feel free to nominate it to move, user input and discussion is how these threads thrive after all.

    The VR and Role Compendium aren't one-to-one resources but if something is ranked in the role compendium then chances are it can be justified for a rank here as well. It's just a matter of someone nominating it and providing good enough reason for us to vote on it. This doesn't need to be an essay post though, just a good argument in favor of ranking it.
    Moose And Goose likes this.
  9. Koekiekoekje

    Koekiekoekje Banned deucer.

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    I think Umbreon and Wobbuffet should be included in the list. A set with Foul Play, Toxic and a recovery move (and eventuelly a Rocky Helmet) makes Umbreon a nice check vs physical threats and is used fairly often. Wobbuffet has a niche in locking opponents in non-damaging moves to aid a set up sweeper, can trap and kill choice locked Pokémon like Garchomp and Tapu Lele and bring down/annoy set up sweepers with a combination of Destiny Bond and Encore. Good bulk living things like a +1 Double-Edge from Salamence and a niche on Perish Trap teams too makes that Wobbuffet has a unique niche that I think is B- rank worthy and same for Umbreon, but feel free to disagree. I like the votings better this time as they have more content.
  10. Psynergy

    Psynergy Guaranteed Crits
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    There hasn't been much discussion so now that the previous season is over, I'll take the time to at least post a few other noms that will be voted on. These were all brought up in discussion during our previous vote but weren't voted on at the time. Umbreon was one of them but this was just nominated so I won't go over it again. These are not official changes, just nominations that will be voted on next council vote.

    [​IMG]
    Latias: UR -> B-/B
    Similar to Latios, it sits at a solid Speed tier trading a bit of power for bulk, allowing it to function as a better CM user than Latios. Access to Healing Wish also gives it a very nice last-resort option to heal a teammate similar to Lunar Dance Cresselia. It shares all of the same problem as Latios though, namely that its STAB combination isn't great and 110 Speed tier isn't quite as good as it used to be. It's also a Psychic-type that can't abuse Psychic Terrain without resorting to weird stuff like Gravity support, so it misses out on one of the best new tools for its type. It's an excellent Blaziken teammate though and greatly benefits from its rise in usage thanks to Blazikenite's release.

    [​IMG]
    Espeon UR -> B-
    Espeon still holds the title for best Baton Pass recipient on dedicated BP setups. While not much has changed for it, Espeon still remains about as effective as it was in ORAS. It can also function as an effective Dual Screens setter thanks to Yawn though it does face some competition in that role from Alolan Ninetales. It usually struggles to fit on teams otherwise but it's definitely worthy of a rank.

    [​IMG]
    Golisopod UR -> C
    This is an unusual choice that I initially didn't want to include unless Jhon or Theorymon posted it, but after having run into it on a decently high rated team I'm willing to give it a chance at being ranked, especially since it gets similar usage to some Pokemon we have ranked already. While it hates Lele's presence and its ability is a double-edged sword, Golisopod actually boasts a great typing and bulk that lets it check pivot into physical attackers like Mamoswine and Garchomp. It has great Attack and a decent STAB combination that lets it function as a decent pivot with Choice Band or Sitrus Berry, and while its ability can easily force it off the field when it really doesn't want to, this can be played to the Golisopod user's advantage due to its priority options.

    [​IMG]
    Blaziken A+ -> S
    This is something that came up a lot in discussion on whether or not to move Mega Blaziken to S, but a prevailing thought was that the unpredictability that Z-Move Blaziken and LO Blaziken provide also contributes to how scary Mega Blaziken is, and that both should be ranked in S. Mega Blaziken's superior Speed tier and consistent power definitely make it worthy of S regardless, but Blaziken's other sets shouldn't be taken lightly either. 80 is not a great Speed tier to be in, but Blaziken as a whole is just an insane Pokemon this gen.



    A few other proposed changes of my own that I'd like to vote on are Buzzwole, Snorlax, and Eevee.

    [​IMG]
    Buzzwole B+ -> B
    Buzzwole is still a very usable Fighting-type especially between Beast Boost and its amazing physical bulk, but it faces a lot of competition from Mega Heracross who is typically the better choices even though it takes a Mega slot. Buzzwole still boasts access to Thunder Punch and Ice Punch, as well as reliable recovery that make it a fantastic physical tank and decent Choice Scarf user, but I think B+ is too high for this.

    [​IMG]
    Snorlax UR -> B
    Snorlax is a really cool mon in BSS and surprisingly versatile between Curse sets and Yawn + Whirlwind sets. It faces competition from Mega Kangakshan as an offensive Normal and from Hippowdon as a phaser, both of which usually fill those roles better, but pinch Berries + Recycle give it a lot of longevity and it actually makes a good special sponge alongside Hippowdon itself to augment its phasing potential. Blaziken being everywhere does it no favors but if you don't have a Fighting-type or Toxic user, Snorlax can quickly become a huge pain to beat.

    [​IMG]
    Eevee UR -> C
    We thought Eevee would die post-bank, and it kinda did for awhile, but EeveePass is still very viable even though Blaziken existing makes life even harder for it. EeveePass still has matchup nonsense that can make it very powerful against teams that lack good answers to it, but it absolutely needs solid team support to function and it struggles against a lot of stuff post-bank.


    Feel free to nominate any other changes though, there's still time to get more nominations in before the next council vote, this is mostly a reminder since the season just ended and there are definitely meta changes worth discussing that aren't reflected on the VR yet.
    cant say, Boehijt, The Squash and 6 others like this.
  11. Fischgrat

    Fischgrat

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    along with Latias and Espeon, i want to bring up another Psychic Type for B-:

    Nominating Alakazam(-Mega): First and foremost, this beast really handles Blaziken in a 1v1 thanks to Trace, awesome speed tier and strong attacks, but that's not the only one who should not take Zam lightly - the speed tier and psychic typing + coverage let it revenge a lot of pokemon that aren't scarfed or are called max speed Pheromosa. Also a Pokémon that can work well in a psychic spam core with lele, and it fills some niches on a few teambuilds due to a strong stab, decent coverage, and a surprising number of support options. It does have horrible defensive stats though, as well as the mega slot being taken up. B- seems fitting but there's room for discussion.

    Pretty much on the same boat with all the nominations though. personal flavour for B- on both Psychics.
    One thing I am still thinking about is that I personally see Aegislash and Mimikyu on par in viability, usage aside i kinda feel like mimikyu's attack and speed stat shouldn't warrant S; then again the ability is absolutely ridiculous and will stay ridiculous. Still, Z Aegi is just so incredibly good that it usually wins if you can just apply enough pressure to not let some sweeper set up too much, while its other sets are different enough to be damn deadly on their own. if we would make a S- rank both would fit that i think, but i strongly oppose adding that distinction. Maybe time will give more light on this, with several megas to be fully integrated into the meta etc.

    Sorry if anything sounds messy, i'm tired -.-
    ThickFatAzumarill likes this.
  12. Moose And Goose

    Moose And Goose

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    I really like all of Psynergy's suggestions.

    Also, I have some suggestions:
    upload_2017-7-21_19-40-22.png Zapdos A- --> A
    To be honest I have not used Zapdos much at all, but when I have used Zapdos it's been really potent as a wall (I think that choice sets are also usable) and A- does not seem to put the utility Zapdos brings into perspective. Its movepool is not amazing, but it functions very well with the boltbeam + fire coverage along with reliable recovery, pivoting, and a wide range of support moves to help its buddies out. Zapdos also is a neat pick during teambuilding because of the pseudo-FWG cores it creates, along with the rise of mega-Blaziken, which benefits almost any physical wall that resists one or both Blaziken's STABS gets a little viability boost (not to mention that Blaziken makes ice & rock types look less appealing during teambuilding along with ground moves looking better).

    upload_2017-7-21_20-7-46.png Mega-Manetric UR --> C
    While Manetric has been mostly overshadowed by Tapu Koko thanks to a dual typing, similar speed tier, and ability with better utility overall Manetric does have a few virtues that help it stand out and make it somewhat viable. While Koko does have a better ability Manetric starts with lightningrod which can boost its Spa to better levels and lets it switch into stuff like Koko. After it megas it gets intimidate which helps patch it's fairly poor defense stat (70/80 physical bulk). Manetric also has Overheat/Flamethrower which koko can only dream of having, especially because Manetric can run fire and ice coverage which Koko can not do. On top of that it has slightly better speed than the base 130 tier (135), outspeeding stuff like Gengar and most of the unboosted meta. All of these traits help it be a good offensive pivot (thanks to volt switch). Of course the mega slot and lack of power really hold back this mon from being any better than it currently is in this meta.
    ThickFatAzumarill likes this.
  13. PKQ

    PKQ

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    Let me tell the most underrated Pokemon in Battle Spot Singles. Mandibuzz is really good, and I think it should get an A- from being unranked. Most physical based Pokemon can't stand Mandibuzz. What do you guys think?
  14. Solerme

    Solerme
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    that it probably deserves a rank, but it's far from being an A- tier mon.
    In A- there are pokemon such as Mega Heracross, Mega Lucario, Mega Venusaur, Suicune, Mega Scizor, Cresselia, Cloyster and so on that are far ahead of Mandibuzz, not only for being stronger but also for being more versatile, whereas Mandibuzz does a single thing: it's a physical tank, a good one yet there are better ones. For Example Zapdos is an A- mon, and its fantastic move poll and typing makes it a better choice, even having less bulk.

    I'd see it in B- to be fair
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  15. Feesh Squad

    Feesh Squad

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    I don't really have time to explain and mobile is a nightmare to write long posts with but I would like to nominate Mega Lopunny UR --> C. Will add reasons why later

    Edit: Well I still don't have my computer available, so mobile will have to do. Mega Lopunny's speed, typing, and ability make it a nightmare for most offensive teams to face, given how it has rather powerful STAB moves along with Fake Out for breaking sashes, sturdy, and disguise, elemental punches for coverage, and power up punch for them boosts. While this may sound incredible, a lack of raw power keeps Mega Lopunny from being able to threaten bulkier teams without having Power Up Punch. Furthermore, it is incredibly frail, so Pokemon with a choice scarf or one that is bulky enough can threaten it. It also takes up a Mega slot, preventing the user from using something better, like Mega Blaziken or Mega Salamence. With enough support, it can break through these bulkier teams, but its niche lies in primarily beating offensive teams, as other Mega Evolutions threaten both more consistently.
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  16. Koekiekoekje

    Koekiekoekje Banned deucer.

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    Volcarona at A+ is too generous in my opinion and I can't explain it now because on mobile xd lmao but I didn't want to wait a few hours more to tell you guys such an important opinion of mine.
    Because it loses versus very dominant threats such as Blaziken, Charizard X, Garchomp (especially when having a Choice Scarf), Gyarados and Mimikyu (the latter which can KO Volcarona via Never-Ending-Nightmare + Shadow Sneak). Then there is this Heatran, as well as Chansey, not to forget Toxapex and Azumarill or Tapu Fini (which often carries a Waterium-Z) etc.
    In short: there is quite a number of Pokémon that either wall or revengekill Volcarona with ease. Stealth Rock hurts it a lot too and breaks it's Focus Sash if it has one.
    Sure its powerful, but I feel the threats I mentioned are too dominant (for example Mimikyu being the most used and Blaziken being the second most used Pokémon according to PGL) in the mètagame to allow Volcarona to shine.
  17. PKQ

    PKQ

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    Maybe a solid B
  18. Solerme

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    Even Mega Salamence loses to dominant threats such as Celesteela, Cresselia, Scarfchomp, Mimikyu, Toxapex and can lose vs Tapu Fini, this doesn't mean that Salamence isn't a top threat, that can end games by itself with the proper support. Volcarona works that way too, it can set up a Quiver Dance and sweep a whole team (even doing HUGE damage to those pokemon you've written, that are supposed to be checks). Also, a pokemon that forces you to think about a check, when building, it's a top tier pokemon hands down.
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  19. Koekiekoekje

    Koekiekoekje Banned deucer.

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    Well, Salamence is more versatile than Volcarona and will always be able to do decent damage even to its best checks (whereas Volcarona too often only can hit opponents with not very effective moves, such as Charizard (both Y and X), Blaziken, Heatran if it lacks Hidden Power Ground, Rotom-Heat and others).
    The checks for Salamence you mentioned aren't all as solid as the Volcarona checks that I mentioned in my opinion: Celesteela could be surprised by Fire Blast on a special attacking Salamence. Tapu Fini loses around 93% of its health when hit by a +1 Double-Edge, with a bold nature and maximum HP and Defense investment that is. Toxapex is no Salamence check as it gets 2HKOed by an unboosted Double-Edge, therefore has to use Recover or Haze every turn in order not to be 2HKOed and Scald is weak and unreliable would you want to fish for a burn. Furthermore could Salamence potentially set up a Substitute on Toxapex, making it even a bigger threat for your team. The other 3 Pokémon you mentioned are indeed good checks although Cresselia isn't so common and again: takes a lot from a boosted Double-Edge.
    In short: Salamence has great neutral coverage and will weaken its checks better than Volcarona does, as it doesn't have as good neutral coverage. I think Salamence is better than Volcarona and I wonder how many people would disagree with that.
  20. chemcoop

    chemcoop

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    Volcarona is also one of those Pokemon that, like regular Blaziken, can run a plethora of strange coverage moves/Z-moves to obliterate "counters." For example, Heatran has to be afraid of HP Ground, and +1 z-Hyper Beam knocks things like both Charizard forms and Salamence out of the park. While the standard Volc set may not beat the Pokémon you listed, there are Volcarona sets that can blow away checks/counters and open the door for either itself or a teammate to win the game. This is one of the main reasons why Volcarona is A+: depending on the set, it can beat almost all of its checks at +1 SpA/Spe. The sheer unpredicability and power of Volcarona, combined with its ability to remove threats for its teammates with its wide range of coverage Z-moves, makes it a top tier metagame threat.
  21. Fischgrat

    Fischgrat

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    The thing is, Volcarona has quite a lot of flexibility through the free item slot, and Z moves are a godsend for the moth. It fills kinda different role than Salamence and it doesn't have the same absurd amount of power and spammable stab+coverage+setup+bulk combined (which obviously makes mence an S rank.. dunno why you used this comparison, solerme only used it as example for "a pokemon having checks =/= less viability"), but between scarf/sash and other offensive QD sets, grass/fire/bug/whatever z crystal (edit: apparently Flynium Z -with Hurricane- is the 3rd most used Item on PGL) and a number of coverage options itself it does have options to revenge, dent or clean opposing teams more than enough. For some of your mentioned checks, Quiver Dance lets it tank most non-z or specs special stab water attacks while KOing back with grassiumZ at +1, let aside the ability to set up on a bunch of things or on the switch before these mons can come in; and the physical attackers, especially priority users that wish to revenge it have to fear a Flame Body burn. In the end, despite Rocks being thrown around and there being a few stops to it, it still is the best abuser of QD and the best non-Mega Fire Pokemon besides reg Blaziken, although i wouldn't completely be opposed to A as rank. Just don't ignore the offense of a pokemon that wants to be played offensively when making an argument..

    tldr Quiver Dance+ Zmoves is ridiculous

    basically chem said most of this already
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
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  22. Solerme

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    No one would disagree, that's why Mence is S and Volcarona a solid A+. The reasons are clearly explained by my, chem's and fisch's post
  23. cant say

    cant say Banned juicer.
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    Volcarona is honestly one of the most comfortably A+ mons on the list. On paper yeah you can come up with stuff that walls it but that's the same for anything, even the S ranks. However in actual practice Volcarona puts in so much work it's ridiculous. It puts a huge strain on the opposing team at team preview as well and can force your opponent into bringing their Volc checks which can be exploited by the Volc user. It's also arguably the best Z move user and can essentially choose what it loses to which makes building around it very easy. Of the things Koek listed, only Garchomp is an actually reliable check but still has to watch out for Hidden Power Ice on the switch. Mimikyu is decent I'll admit but oh hello all of a sudden you're facing a bulky Flame Body Volc and it doesn't matter. Chansey can also get blown back by a +1/+2 Swarm-boosted Z Bug Buzz. So yeah it's A+
    Fischgrat and Solerme like this.
  24. ThickFatAzumarill

    ThickFatAzumarill

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    Mandibuzz has few things going for it, as Solerme said. Dark is a pretty lackluster typing in a meta dominated by Fairies, along with it getting walled by Celesteela and Ferrothorn, which are other two amazing walls. Zapdos outclasses it, despite being less bulky.
    Solerme likes this.
  25. Koekiekoekje

    Koekiekoekje Banned deucer.

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    Sorry for the inconvenience: I actually thought Salamence and Volcarona both where A+ so thats why I compared them that much.

    You guys are right that certain Z-moves/Hidden Powers enable Volcarona to beat certain checks. However, you are all a bit implying as if the Z-moves enable Volcarona to beat ALL of its checks at the same time. If you say Garchomp is the only real Volcarona check, then I think you are forgetting that if Volcarona wants to check Salamence (with Hidden Power Ice) it can't check Heatran anymore (Hidden Power Ground) and vice versa. This goes up for a lot of its checks and not just when it comes down to Hidden Powers: with Z-crystals Volcarona must choose to win versus some of its checks at the cost of losing to other checks.
    Volcarona only can run 4 moves and one wouldn't disagree slot 1 and 2 are meant for Quiver Dance and a fire type move (such as Fire Blast). This means Volcarona has only 2 moveslots to cover the offensive weaknesses it has. You can't run Bug Buzz, Giga Drain, Hurricane, Hidden Power Ice and Hidden Power Ground at the same time and neither can you run a Firium-, Buginium-, Grassium- and Flyinium-Z at the same time, leaving Volcarona be checked by a lot Pokémon still.

    I think Volcarona lacks a lot bulk prior to setting up too, whereas the Charizards also have defensive utility, as well as more immediate power (thanks to their very useful abilities).

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