Resource BSS Viability Rankings

cant say

grumpy and stubborn
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#51
Sorry for the inconvenience: I actually thought Salamence and Volcarona both where A+ so thats why I compared them that much.

You guys are right that certain Z-moves/Hidden Powers enable Volcarona to beat certain checks. However, you are all a bit implying as if the Z-moves enable Volcarona to beat ALL of its checks at the same time. If you say Garchomp is the only real Volcarona check, then I think you are forgetting that if Volcarona wants to check Salamence (with Hidden Power Ice) it can't check Heatran anymore (Hidden Power Ground) and vice versa. This goes up for a lot of its checks and not just when it comes down to Hidden Powers: with Z-crystals Volcarona must choose to win versus some of its checks at the cost of losing to other checks.
Volcarona only can run 4 moves and one wouldn't disagree slot 1 and 2 are meant for Quiver Dance and a fire type move (such as Fire Blast). This means Volcarona has only 2 moveslots to cover the offensive weaknesses it has. You can't run Bug Buzz, Giga Drain, Hurricane, Hidden Power Ice and Hidden Power Ground at the same time and neither can you run a Firium-, Buginium-, Grassium- and Flyinium-Z at the same time, leaving Volcarona be checked by a lot Pokémon still.

I think Volcarona lacks a lot bulk prior to setting up too, whereas the Charizards also have defensive utility, as well as more immediate power (thanks to their very useful abilities).
Please re-read my last post, it answers this post already:
It's also arguably the best Z move user and can essentially choose what it loses to which makes building around it very easy.
Yes, Volcarona gets hard-walled by some Pokemon depending on what moves / items you choose to use on it, but none of its checks can actually safely switch in on it due to the threat of being hit by the correct coverage move. No one implied that Volcarona is capable of beating all its checks at the same time, you inferring that is an error on your part.
 
#52
Please re-read my last post, it answers this post already:
If thats the only thing you got to say about it: you literally say in that post that only Garchomp is a reliable check to Volcarona and Mimikyu is just decent. With that saying that Heatran, Charizard X, Salamence, Gyarados, Tapu Fini, Toxapex and Rotom-Heat aren't reliable checks because of the coverage moves Volcarona can run, yes, then you DO imply that Volcarona runs all the coverage moves to hit them all at once.
Its also unfair that we are talking about a +1 Volcarona all the time, as setting up in such an offensive mètagame can be very hard to accomplish.
 
#53
Yes, those aren't reliable checks, no, that doesn't imply Volcarona runs all the needed coverage at the same time. Due to its great flexibility it eases teambuilding and fitting volcarona on a team to fill its role while also luring a good portion of its checks depending on the set, which warrants the rank it has. Factoring in Quiver Dance, which is "unfair" in your opinion, only pays tribute to the fact that volcarona can actually set up on a lot of pokemon which fail to KO it, also thanks to the decent speed tier.

Editing here @ below to not add even more to this discussion:

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bloom Doom (140 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 196-232 (111.3 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 108-128 (67 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Offensive Fini fails to ko without a Z move, while Volcarona gains a lot more out of the situation thanks to the quiver dance boost enabling a sweep.
(52% Bold Tapu Fini usage)

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 188-224 (110.5 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 162-191 (95.2 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

(>60% Mega Stone Usage)

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 212 HP / 44 SpD Heatran: 196-232 (101.5 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(only 16% Calm, 80%+ offensive Natures)

Yes, these are all +1 calcs, yes, these pokemon are valid checks against certain Volcarona sets, yes, those are in no way safe switchins or even safe in the 1v1. Note: these are all Timid Calcs for demonstration purposes, Modest is by far the most used Nature on Volcarona which blows even bulkier checks/EV spreads out of the water.
Just a few minutes of actual Research and looking at numbers.
 
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#54
Yes, those aren't reliable checks, no, that doesn't imply Volcarona runs all the needed coverage at the same time. Due to its great flexibility it eases teambuilding and fitting volcarona on a team to fill its role while also luring a good portion of its checks depending on the set, which warrants the rank it has. Factoring in Quiver Dance, which is "unfair" in your opinion, only pays tribute to the fact that volcarona can actually set up on a lot of pokemon which fail to KO it, also thanks to the decent speed tier.
"can actually set up on a lot of Pokémon"
I can see out of the S- and A-ranked Pokémon that Volcarona could set up on: Aegislash, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Scizor, Venusaur, Heracross, Cresselia, Porygon2 and Zapdos, but only if there are no Stealth Rocks on Volcarona's side. The other Pokémon that are not listed here can KO or phaze it as it sets up. Even then the ones listed above can put a timer on Volcarona with Toxic, annoy it with Paralyze, or KO it with Rock Blast or Never-Ending-Nightmare + Shadow Sneak (depending on the sets and prediction).

I see Tapu Fini, Gyarados, Heatran etc. are not considered to be reliable checks to Volcarona by at least 2 people but I'd like to know what others think of this.


Please add Pokémon you think Volcarona could set up on because maybe I forgot a few important ones.

I know Volcarona is strong and great but I personally think it's only A rank worthy.

Yes, those aren't reliable checks, no, that doesn't imply Volcarona runs all the needed coverage at the same time. Due to its great flexibility it eases teambuilding and fitting volcarona on a team to fill its role while also luring a good portion of its checks depending on the set, which warrants the rank it has. Factoring in Quiver Dance, which is "unfair" in your opinion, only pays tribute to the fact that volcarona can actually set up on a lot of pokemon which fail to KO it, also thanks to the decent speed tier.

Editing here @ below to not add even more to this discussion:
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bloom Doom (140 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 196-232 (111.3 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 108-128 (67 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Offensive Fini fails to ko without a Z move, while Volcarona gains a lot more out of the situation thanks to the quiver dance boost enabling a sweep.
(52% Bold Tapu Fini usage)

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bloom Doom (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 196-232 (115.2 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 162-191 (95.2 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
(>60% Mega Stone Usage)

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 212 HP / 44 SpD Heatran: 196-232 (101.5 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(only 16% Calm, 80%+ offensive Natures)

Yes, these are all +1 calcs, yes, these pokemon are valid checks against certain Volcarona sets, yes, those are in no way safe switchins or even safe in the 1v1. Note: these are all Timid Calcs for demonstration purposes, Modest is by far the most used Nature on Volcarona which blows even bulkier checks/EV spreads out of the water.

Just a few minutes of actual Research and looking at numbers.
I admit those are fairly accurate calcs. Just two small things: the standard offensive Tapu Fini set has a Waterium Z, so that should be taken into account. I think its a little bit unfair to calculate for Mega Gyarados, because I don't see why someone would want to lose its bug type resistance and becoming weak to the grass type, ad Bug Buzz is its most common attack on Volcarona according to PGL.

Let's just stop the discussion from here on, I get your point now and agree with them partially, you didn't agree with mine, and further discussion won't change anything I guess.
 
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#55
Let's just stop the discussion from here on, I get your point now and agree with them partially, you didn't agree with mine, and further discussion won't change anything I guess.
Actually your point of view on Volcarona was fair. Yesterday i had a talk with an auth that was agreeing with it, specially if you think how prevalent is Stealth Rock now.
This thread is meant to be a place to discuss, so everyone of us just said his opinion and why. The fact is that most of us do think that Volcarona is an A+, that's all, and it's nothing personal, just a point of view.

Also i don't agree when you say that the discussion won't change by going further. If you believe that Volcarona isn't worth that spot in the ranking try to support your opinion with numbers as some of us did, and trust me we could even enjoy the debate
 
#56
Only 1 person from the opposition came with numbers (Fischgrat) though. I named the number of Pokémon that Volcarona could set up on to illustrate how few of those there are.
Azumarill and Garchomp and Mimikyu all do a good job revengekilling Volcarona (right?). 22% of all Volcarona either have Hurricane or Hyper Beam, which means 78% of the time Charizard X, Toxapex and (regular) Gyarados are a decent Volcarona check (as they only get OHKOed by a +1 Breakneck Blitz or Supersonic Skystrike). Offensive Tapu Fini and Primarina (Waterium Z and Primarium Z resp.) are decent Volcarona checks 90.1% of the time, as a +1 Volcarona will only OHKO them with Bloom Doom, which it only can use 9.9% of the time (also given that Tapu Fini and Primarina usually have maximum HP investment). Too bad I can't find anywhere how often Hidden Power Ice is used over Hidden Power Ground, because then I could say something about the chances Heatran and Salamence being Volcarona checks.
These numbers are to illustrate that the Pokémon I listed all will be good Volcarona checks for a very reasonable amount (%) of the time. I think its unfair to call them unreliable checks, just because 22% or even just 10% of all Volcarona (for example) have a way to blast through them

Edit: on top of that is Volcarona especially weak to Focus Sash users, as it can't afford take a hit back due to its frailty (whereas bulkier sweepers might be able to take one of those hits). Using a Stealth Rock setter alongside Volcarona is a must when facing offensive teams, as Greninja, Breloom, Garchomp, Cloyster and others KO it back otherwise. I guess that limits the options you have when selecting Volcarona in team preview...
 
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NOVED

twitch.tv/novedpoke
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#57
Only 1 person from the opposition came with numbers (Fischgrat) though. I named the number of Pokémon that Volcarona could set up on to illustrate how few of those there are.
Azumarill and Garchomp and Mimikyu all do a good job revengekilling Volcarona (right?). 22% of all Volcarona either have Hurricane or Hyper Beam, which means 78% of the time Charizard X, Toxapex and (regular) Gyarados are a decent Volcarona check (as they only get OHKOed by a +1 Breakneck Blitz or Supersonic Skystrike). Offensive Tapu Fini and Primarina (Waterium Z and Primarium Z resp.) are decent Volcarona checks 90.1% of the time, as a +1 Volcarona will only OHKO them with Bloom Doom, which it only can use 9.9% of the time (also given that Tapu Fini and Primarina usually have maximum HP investment). Too bad I can't find anywhere how often Hidden Power Ice is used over Hidden Power Ground, because then I could say something about the chances Heatran and Salamence being Volcarona checks.
These numbers are to illustrate that the Pokémon I listed all will be good Volcarona checks for a very reasonable amount (%) of the time. I think its unfair to call them unreliable checks, just because 22% or even just 10% of all Volcarona (for example) have a way to blast through them

Edit: on top of that is Volcarona especially weak to Focus Sash users, as it can't afford take a hit back due to its frailty (whereas bulkier sweepers might be able to take one of those hits). Using a Stealth Rock setter alongside Volcarona is a must when facing offensive teams, as Greninja, Breloom, Garchomp, Cloyster and others KO it back otherwise. I guess that limits the options you have when selecting Volcarona in team preview...
There's no doubting the pokemon you're talking about are fantastic Volcarona checks. In fact, nobody should disagree with that. Those pokemon are all great at beating Volcarona a majority of the time. What the others are trying to get across is that because Volc can choose coverage moves to crush those common checks, it makes it very powerful. Not every pokemon is capable of being this flexible and unpredictable. In a meta where you can only bring half your team, this makes these Z moves sets really strong. In the matchups where your opponent has Heatran, you can bench Volc. When they have Charizard, Fini, whatever and you have a Z move to hit them then you can bring Volc and your opponent isn't prepared for it very well. This is what makes Volc A+ in our eyes.
 
#58
Mandibuzz has few things going for it, as Solerme said. Dark is a pretty lackluster typing in a meta dominated by Fairies, along with it getting walled by Celesteela and Ferrothorn, which are other two amazing walls. Zapdos outclasses it, despite being less bulky.
Then what rank would you give it because I personally think it should be rank?
 
#60
NO Mandibuzz 630.png
I think Mandibuzz should stay unranked because it really is not that amazing when compared to the multitude of other options for physical walls. While it does have respectable bulk on paper, mandibuzz lacks the one major thing that other defensive mons have: The abillity to reliably switch into most physical attackers. Mandibuzz's resistances are Dark, Ghost, and Grass (+ psycic immune). Notice how none of these types are super common in the BSS meta, and when they are used you mostly are seeing things that beat Mandibuzz with their other coverage options (i.e. Mega Gyarados and Tyranitar's Crunch, Tapu lele's shadow ball, Landorus' Knock off, even ferrothorn with power whip can still beat mandibuzz in a 1v1). Mandibuzz having access to Foul Play may be a great thing against physical attackers, but that leaves mandibuzz to use toxic or taunt against special attackers, while mons like Ferrothorn or Hippowdon can be specially defensive and still check a good number of physical attackers at the same time. Finally, Mandibuzz has pretty poor abillities, with overcoat being the best one for a defensive mon. Granted Overcoat does have some uses, Mandibuss is not bulky enough to use this abillity to much affect because It cannot counter
upload_2017-8-16_7-2-47.png
,
upload_2017-8-16_7-2-59.png
,
upload_2017-8-16_7-3-22.png
, or
upload_2017-8-16_7-3-41.png
which are the main mons that dislike being up against an overcoat mon, but non of these really care too much about anything Mandibuzz can do them other than toxic.

All of these combined cause Mandibuzz to be unable to reliably counter a large portion of the metagame, leaving it to be more of a defensive check, which is not what anyone wants in a defensive mon.
tldr: Mandibuzz can't switch into anything so NO Mandibuzz 630.png
 
#61
View attachment 86879
I think Mandibuzz should stay unranked because it really is not that amazing when compared to the multitude of other options for physical walls. While it does have respectable bulk on paper, mandibuzz lacks the one major thing that other defensive mons have: The abillity to reliably switch into most physical attackers. Mandibuzz's resistances are Dark, Ghost, and Grass (+ psycic immune). Notice how none of these types are super common in the BSS meta, and when they are used you mostly are seeing things that beat Mandibuzz with their other coverage options (i.e. Mega Gyarados and Tyranitar's Crunch, Tapu lele's shadow ball, Landorus' Knock off, even ferrothorn with power whip can still beat mandibuzz in a 1v1). Mandibuzz having access to Foul Play may be a great thing against physical attackers, but that leaves mandibuzz to use toxic or taunt against special attackers, while mons like Ferrothorn or Hippowdon can be specially defensive and still check a good number of physical attackers at the same time. Finally, Mandibuzz has pretty poor abillities, with overcoat being the best one for a defensive mon. Granted Overcoat does have some uses, Mandibuss is not bulky enough to use this abillity to much affect because It cannot counter View attachment 86875 , View attachment 86876 , View attachment 86877 , or View attachment 86878 which are the main mons that dislike being up against an overcoat mon, but non of these really care too much about anything Mandibuzz can do them other than toxic.

All of these combined cause Mandibuzz to be unable to reliably counter a large portion of the metagame, leaving it to be more of a defensive check, which is not what anyone wants in a defensive mon.
tldr: Mandibuzz can't switch into anything so View attachment 86879
If you feel that strongly against Mandibuzz then maybe it should stay unranked or maybe a C
 
#64
View attachment 86879
I think Mandibuzz should stay unranked because it really is not that amazing when compared to the multitude of other options for physical walls. While it does have respectable bulk on paper, mandibuzz lacks the one major thing that other defensive mons have: The abillity to reliably switch into most physical attackers. Mandibuzz's resistances are Dark, Ghost, and Grass (+ psycic immune). Notice how none of these types are super common in the BSS meta, and when they are used you mostly are seeing things that beat Mandibuzz with their other coverage options (i.e. Mega Gyarados and Tyranitar's Crunch, Tapu lele's shadow ball, Landorus' Knock off, even ferrothorn with power whip can still beat mandibuzz in a 1v1). Mandibuzz having access to Foul Play may be a great thing against physical attackers, but that leaves mandibuzz to use toxic or taunt against special attackers, while mons like Ferrothorn or Hippowdon can be specially defensive and still check a good number of physical attackers at the same time. Finally, Mandibuzz has pretty poor abillities, with overcoat being the best one for a defensive mon. Granted Overcoat does have some uses, Mandibuss is not bulky enough to use this abillity to much affect because It cannot counter View attachment 86875 , View attachment 86876 , View attachment 86877 , or View attachment 86878 which are the main mons that dislike being up against an overcoat mon, but non of these really care too much about anything Mandibuzz can do them other than toxic.

All of these combined cause Mandibuzz to be unable to reliably counter a large portion of the metagame, leaving it to be more of a defensive check, which is not what anyone wants in a defensive mon.
tldr: Mandibuzz can't switch into anything so View attachment 86879
Let's not forget it's immune to the ground type as well.

But yeah, it's a very good defog user, but defog isn't really needed in BSS. Still, its speed stat in combination with taunt enables it to be a decent lead versus Stealth Rock Ferrothorn and Hippowdon for example. It also is capable of walling and beating Aegislash, Metagross and (Mega) Gyarados with Foul Play, which is something too. It has a fair matchup versus stall teams too, but I think Mega Gengar outclasses it as a stallbreaker.
 
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#65
Let's not forget it's immune to the ground type as well.

But yeah, it's a very good defog user, but defog isn't really needed in BSS. Still, its speed stat in combination with taunt enables it to be a decent lead versus Stealth Rock Ferrothorn and Hippowdon for example. It also is capable of walling and beating Aegislash, Metagross and (Mega) Gyarados with Foul Play, which is something too. It has a fair matchup versus stall teams too, but I think Mega Gengar outclasses it as a stallbreaker.
Well, if we're speaking of taunt leads, there is a plethora of pokemon that can act as great Taunt users as well, and are higher in the ranks, for example Koko, Lele, Fini, Skarmory, Serperior, TTar, Gliscor, Heatran, Hydreigon and so on.
I do think that Mandi's STAB Foul Play combined with its bulk make it a wonderful tank and decent answer to setup sweepers, but even so it isn't always able to beat top threats, for example, starting from what you said, both Aegislash (special WP) and Mega Gyarados (that won't be taken down by Foul Play even if it's at +5 Attack) can take on it.
 
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#66
One small thing I want to add to the Volcarona discussion is that out of all A+ ranked Pokémon, Volcarona has by far the lowest usage (at place 25 according to the PGL). Even when looking at the A rank: 14/18 Pokémon are used more often than Volcarona. Don't these statistics imply Volcarona isn't considered to be even as good as a lot A ranked Pokémon? Or is there anything important that I'm overlooking when using these stats to say something about its viability?
 

cant say

grumpy and stubborn
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#67
usage =/= viability. otherwise we would just link the usage stats and not bother. of course we take it into account but using Volcarona's "low" usage as an argument against its placement is pretty lousy.
 

Jhon

Someday in the Rain
is a Pre-Contributor
#68
usage =/= viability. otherwise we would just link the usage stats and not bother. of course we take it into account but using Volcarona's "low" usage as an argument against its placement is pretty lousy.
Usage can, to a degree, begin to imply viability. If a mon is truely viable, people will use it. If it isn't remotely viable, people will not use it. Usage just isn't the be all end all of viability.
I think it's worth mentioning that Volcarona's usage has steadily declined (S3 ~9.4%, S4 ~8%, S5 current ~7.6%), it's having a slightly lesser impact on the metagame now.
I personally don't believe it's A+ material, the z-move arguments are not unique to Volc. The SR weakness is a serious one. The rise of M-Blaziken is also an issue for it. Not just Blaze itself but their common checks also becoming more common. CB Azu is starting to see actual usage, for instance.
 

Psynergy

Escape Route
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#69
Votes are in for the last set of nominations, discussion in this thread was slow for awhile so this is coming later than usual. We also discussed the possibility of a gimmick rank for Pokemon like Eevee that only function on one specific team composition and need the support to function well. While most of us were in agreement with the idea of a gimmick rank, we also felt okay with them going in C so for the sake of not adding excess ranks I'm revising the definition of C rank to include viable gimmicks.

If other people feel strongly about adding the gimmick rank then the Pokemon that were agreed upon will simply be moved there. I'll re-emphasize that this is not a pass to nominate any gimmick mon you want to C rank though, there's a difference between a proven gimmick and a mon you used once to moderate success.
Alolan Ninetales: B+ -> B
cant say: agree. this thing seems too easy to play around, it needs sash to function meaning you only get 5 turns of veil and those are usually pretty easily stalled out. it can't use light clay like all the regular dual screeners because of its bad defensive typing and awkward speed

chemcoop: B+ -> B-: drop to B- imo. HailVeil teams aren't really that great since plenty of weather setters like Zard Y, Hippo, TTar, and even Pelipper to some extent exist. Ninetales is also weak af defensively/offensively so you can't count on it to tank a hit or pick up the KOs you need even with Nasty Plot. Encore, Hypnosis, Sheer Cold are neat, but probably not worth the teamslot overall.

DragonWhale: B-. Dual screens that uses a teamslot. Hail isn't that good

NOVED: B- I dont think this thing is that good. I've tried building teams with it and was disappointed, not impressed while playing it either. Screens just aren't impactful enough to warrant using a bad mon i think, even if its an arguably op one turn screen move.

Psynergy: This is still a cool support Pokemon but easy screen setter is all this is good for. It's also easy to screw it over with another weather setter so you can't always set up Aurora Veil to begin with. Definitely not a B+ mon, drop this.

Solerme: Aurora Veil can be stopped with opposing weathers and Ninetales doesn't have safe ways to force switch outs and might become a setup bait. Although moves like Icy wind, Encore and Hypnosis still give him tools to kind of deal with those (being forced to either predict your opponent or take risks).
If Espeon stays at B- i totally don't see Ninetails being higher than it, also considering that the icy fox has just a single set.

Theorymon: Honestly I'd go even further and make it B- since it falls flat against other weather setters, but B is alright for it too.

Umbreon: UR -> B-
cant say: disagree. this feels like much more of a niche defensive option. yawn and/or wish has uses but there's barely any reason to use this over better bulky mons like p2 / hippo / landot / gyara / ferro etc. it is def one of the better mons in bssf though lol I think C rank seems fair

chemcoop: UR -> B-: Yeah this thing is pretty tanky, can pass pretty big wishes, and is a solid Toxic+Foul Play user. Unfortunately, it exists in a fairy-dominated meta, so it can get pressured out relatively easily. Cool mon, definitely niche, not that good though.

DragonWhale: Ive only seen this in factory. unrank.

NOVED: B- Yeah this thing can be pretty annoying with Yawn and Foul Play and stuff. Synchro is a surprisingly useful ability with all the Toxic in the meta. Not amazing cause of all the fairies around but probably worth B-.

Psynergy: I've seen Umbreon on several odd setups but it's a deceptively annoying support Pokemon. Great bulk, Yawn and STAB Foul Play are all useful tools but it's way too passive otherwise and mono-Dark is a bad defensive typing in this meta. I think B- is a fair place for it.

Solerme: Yes. Great combination of bulk + STAB Foul Play. It gets also great supporting moves such as Yawn, Wish, Heal Bell.

Theorymon: Good fit imo, the fairy weak sucks but it is pretty bulky, and it makes good use of Foul Play too.

Wobbuffet: UR -> B-
cant say: disagree. super niche, and doesn't have access to its best item (custap). only fits on perishtrap teams. happy to leave unranked or maybe even C

chemcoop: UR -> C: Gimmick if we decide to add that section, C otherwise. Mixed attackers can outplay this thing, and if you get a taunter in on it, then gg. Kinda cool on Perish Trap teams I guess, but there are definitely better 'mons to use on PerishGar teams.

DragonWhale: Gimmick.

NOVED: C I wanna say C cause i dont think this thing fits anywhere besides exactly with Perish Gar. It's decent at that job tho I suppose.

Psynergy: Probably better in C rank, wouldn't be opposed to gimmick tier if we want a distinction for that. Wobbuffet has a very unique niche that can turn games around on its own if used properly but it's really hard to justify using it outside of very specific setups, usually on Perish Trap teams. Cool mon but I don't think I've ever seen it this gen.

Solerme: Not a fan of it. Shadow Tag is of course a wonderful ability, yet i see this thing as a gimmick.

Theorymon: Putting aside my bias from the fact that I'm a Wobbuffet fan, I think C might be more fitting for it until it gets Custap Berry. A gimmick section for it is fine too since its only used on perish trap teams.

Latias: UR -> B-/B
cant say: agree. (but are we including mega?) one of the few reliable blaziken checks that doesn't die to a z coverage move (if z knock off becomes a thing I will quit). can also calm mind on a lot of things, and sub or goggles makes it a cool loom/venu check too

chemcoop: UR -> B-/C: Has a pretty nice niche as a reliable Blaze/M-Blaze counter, but idk what else it really does better than anything else. I'd prefer Cress for screens, and Latios for sheer offensive power. B-/C in my book. Mega Latias is a bit better with CM Stored Power and BoltBeam but since we're just talking about non-mega Latias I'll stick with B-/C

DragonWhale: Defensively worse cress and offensively worse latios. Non-mega should not be ranked.

NOVED: B- I think Dragon/Psychic is generally pretty bad for obvious reasons. But checking Blaziken is this things saving grace. Mega should be B imo, the extra bulk makes it just a bit better i think.

Psynergy: Latios does the whole offensive thing better but I think Latias is definitely usable with extra bulk. I've used this a bit and I think Rocky Helmet is the best set, cool Blaziken check that isn't sniped by any of its common Z-Move options and a nice speed tier. I think B- is a better fit for this, it's not that much worse than Latios but honestly that may be too high as well.

Solerme: Healing Wish, Screens, Calm Mind and Stored Power. This totally deserves a spot in the B ranks. B- though is as much as it should go imo.

Theorymon: C? I'm not sure, what does this offer over Latios beyond a bit of extra bulk and Healing Wish? Of course as soon as Latiasite comes out we may need to revisit this.

Espeon: UR -> B-
cant say: disagree but only coz I think it should be B. magic bounce + dual screens makes for a good lead, fits on lots of versions of baton pass, and can be a standalone offensive mon.

chemcoop: Can do some cool stuff as a lead with dual screens + yawn support and is obviously a good BP recipient on EeveePass with the Magic Bounce ability. Think B- is solid place for it (sorry soLerme).

DragonWhale: Gimmick

NOVED: B- Sure magic bounce can be pretty neat to protect stuff like charizard and volc. and the screens yawn stuff can give that same stuff decent opportunities.

Psynergy: You usually only see this on EeveePass teams these days but it's still definitely usable without that support. It's a decent screens user thanks to Yawn and Magic Bounce is pretty cool, but I don't see this being any higher than B- either way.

Solerme: Already made a long explanation some posts ago, agreed on B-

Theorymon: Espeon is super annoying on Eevee teams, but it can do a bit more than that too so I'm fine with B-.

Golisopod: UR -> C
cant say: agree. emergency exit is bad and can backfire. use araquanid

chemcoop: This thing is super tanky and has access to a lot of good priority, but its ability holds it back so much. Skilled players could use Emergency Exit to get good switches I think, but would not recommend on most teams/for most players.

DragonWhale: C. Terrible ability considering shit defensive typing.

NOVED: C yeah all the prio and decent typing is pretty cool. i still dont really like the ability. i know some ppl think it has good uses and i can see it but i think you give too much control to your opp in how things go with that ability and i dont like that much.

Psynergy: I still think the ability is more bad than good, but I've seen it get some legit use. Not a terrible offensive typing and its defensive typing gives it a unique niche as a Ground check, I think I'm okay with this being ranked so C rank is fine.

Solerme: I'm not sure, it might even be B-. I'll keep C for now though, C+ if we add the tier.

Theorymon: I've had a lot of success with Golisopod in the past, but I think C fits it, it can be a bit difficult to control its ability at times, so it can be a real double edged sword at times.

Blaziken: A+ -> S
cant say: agree. the mega is borked, but the pressure that blaziken puts on you at team preview is immense. the non-mega is super versatile and has the potential to totally screw you up by bopping your check with the proper coverage / z move

chemcoop: Not S material imo. Although non-STAB z-moves make this thing super threatening and the mixed LO set is a great surprise factor late game, this regular Blaze's meh speed tier really hurts it.

DragonWhale: A+. It has Double Team and HP Ice as things that differenciate from mega but mega is still a lot easier to use and better.

NOVED: A+ i dont think reg blaziken is on S level. mega does things better imo. the lower speed is a significant hinderance imo and all the non mega sets are just kinda weaker at a lot of things that make them easier to handle.

Psynergy: As Blaziken meta further develops, I think it's become more clear that Mega Blaziken is just so much more consistent. I don't think we can ignore that regular Blaziken is a reason that Mega Blaziken is so good but the unpredictability isn't the only reason Mega Blaziken is S rank. Regular Blaziken has a lot of cool sets that Mega Blaziken can't use, but they're a bit riskier and suffer from its awkward Speed tier. I think A+ is fine.

Solerme: Mega is definitely S, this thing is great even in its regular form though. Good stats, move poll and a godlike ability definitely makes it A+

Theorymon: Blaziken is excellent, but I think it should stay at A+ because Mega Blaziken is often a bigger threat due to its better speed tier.

Buzzwole: B+ -> B
cant say: disagree coz it should be B-. blaziken, mence, mimikyu, and the zards are too common for it to play defensive roles well anymore. it's one redeeming quality is that its a bulkymon that can beat ferro. I think scarf is kinda decent but is super uncommon

chemcoop: B+ -> B-: Relying on Superpower for for primary fighting STAB is not the best, and it dies to strong special attackers + the super common Mega Mence and Mega Blaze. Not too great in the current meta.

DragonWhale: B. It can shine sometimes but honestly not as good as the other B+s

NOVED: B- yeah this things just not that good. too many good special attackers in the meta with a good matchup vs it.

Psynergy: This thing has dropped off even harder than when I initially brought it up, it's got a very interesting niche that would've been much better in Gen 6 Kangaskhan meta but now with all the other Fighting-type Megas around it's not as cool anymore. Honestly B- might be a better fit for Buzzwole now.

Solerme: Agreed. It's a good pokemon and can run different sets as well, yet i don't see it B+ mainly because i feel that the other B+ mons are overall stronger than it.

Theorymon: I'd go even further with ranking Buzzwole lower. It's not bad by any means, but it doesn't do very well against most of the Special Attackers around, and it's got an awkward speed tier and fighting STAB options that limits it.


Snorlax: UR -> B
cant say: agree. this thing can be super obnoxious. bulky boosting is a good strategy these days

chemcoop: UR -> B: Definitely a cool mon and worthy of B rank. Curselax + Recycle can be a pain to kill without Toxic, and the phazer Yawn+Whirlwind+Recycle set is a huge pain to deal with once a teammate like Skarm sets rocks and a spike. Snorlax also has pretty ridiculous HP/SpD so it can actually take hits on the special side unlike the phazers like Hippowdon.

DragonWhale: B. Yea this thing eats the abundant special attackers and recycle is god. Still needs a lot of setup though.

NOVED: B yeah lax is sick. recycling super sitrus can be really hard to stop for a lot of teams.

Psynergy: I like Snorlax because it's both good as a bulky support and a bulky setup sweeper. Snorlax can really screw over teams that lack Fighting-types but unfortunately there's plenty of good Fighting-types so this thing isn't unstoppable. Still a really cool Normal-type but I think B is the right place for it.

Solerme: Agreed. The pinch berries make Snorlax annoying as hell in this gen. Also it has a great move pool with Yawn, Wwind, and such to support the team, and can setup with moves such as Curse or even Belly Drum. This thing is no joke.
I'm even debating on voting B+ for this.

Theorymon: I agree with this, Gluttony is a huge bastard to deal with. Curselax can be a nightmare for TR teams to face, and it can run a phazing Yawn set sorta similar to Hippowdon except it can't set up SR, but it takes on Special threats better.

Eevee: UR -> C
cant say: agree. we can all agree that eevee teams are usable, but eevee itself sucks.

chemcoop: UR -> C: C or gimmick rank is fair for this thing. It requires a well-constructed team designed specifically to set this thing up and allow it to use it's signature Z-move effectively. While Eeveepass can work against unprepared teams, the fact is that most high-ranked teams have solid ways of dealing with Eevee. Also, Mega Blaze kinda tears most Eevee teams apart and it's super common so yeah...Eevee is not the best imo.

DragonWhale: Gimmick.

NOVED: B- i think this is a hard mon to rank. the way i see ranking this is like ranking the archetype as a whole almost. not exactly that drastic but its just not easy ranking solely eevee imo. the eeveepass team is a solid playstyle, i feel like it has a lot of good matchups. eevee is what makes that team good imo and i think what it does for that team is probably b- worthy.

Psynergy: If we want a gimmick tier then this obviously should go there, it defines an entire team but it only works with said team. That's why I initially said it should go in C rank and that's where my vote stays, but I wouldn't be opposed to B- if we don't add a gimmick tier solely because it's better than most of what we'd put in C rank.

Solerme: Yeah. Does just one thing and it's definitely predictable.

Theorymon: Sure, well constructed Eevee teams do often get high ranked and can be threatening, but you REALLY got to commit to it. Find with putting this in a gimmick section as well.

Mega Alakazam: UR -> B-
cant say: disagree should be B. I might be overstating it though so B- is prob fine. it has sick coverage and is crazy fast, and benefits from the most common terrain. been testing it out and I like it

chemcoop: UR -> B-: Great speed tier, especially since most Pheromosa run neutral Speed natures. Trace can be super cool if you trace Beast Boost or Speed Boost on Mega Blaze. Tbh, Mega Zam is probably EeveePass' most reliable way to deal with lead M-Gengar/M-Blaze.

DragonWhale: B. When all these abilities are broken so is Trace. Good speed tier too.

NOVED: B- this thing is kinda cool cause of its speed tier. tracing stuff like speed boost is pretty sick too. and can actually function as a decent support mon for stuff like glalie and eevee as well, interesting mon with some potential i think. being a psychic keeps it from being much higher tho i think.

Psynergy: Underrated Mega, this thing is really cool with Trace giving it an advantageous matchup against a lot of stuff thanks to its insane Speed tier. That Speed is even more valuable this gen and it can also abuse an opponent's Psychic Terrain nicely too. Not sure if B or B- though, I'll say B because I think it's as good as most things there but B- is a safe place to put it as well.

Solerme: This is a superb mega when it comes to 1vs1 in the late game, thanks to its Encore/Disable combo and Trace.
And even without it, it is a threatening special attacker with an outstanding speed tier and a decent move poll. Too bad it takes a mega slot. B-

Theorymon: I agree with this, Mega Alakazam has a pretty fantastic speed tier, and Trace can lead to some fun stunts.

Zapdos: A- -> A
cant say: disagree. it's good but not that good

chemcoop: Being able to check Mence is pretty cool, especially since Mence is Ferro/Fini/Blaze core's worst enemy. That being said, it can easily be worn down by rocks + strong special attacks. Heat Wave + + Electric is cool for beating both waters and Ferrothorn, but overall I'm not the biggest fan of this thing being in A.

DragonWhale: A-. With everything trying to put koko down Zapdos doesn't have much left aside from being able to beat both ferro and mence in one mon. That's still really good though and can still be a threat.

NOVED: i like a- for zap. as far as defensive mons go i dont like its bulk that much. the typing is the reason i'd use it more than anything, mainly as a mence answer. but with stuff like koko and lele really pressuring it and toxic mons being really common alongside subroost mence i think zap has enough issues to keep it at a-.

Psynergy: Zapdos is definitely benefiting from Mega Blaziken being insane but you really aren't seeing it without Blaziken, Ferrothorn and/or Tapu Fini. That's not a bad thing given all of those are amazing mons but Zapdos is more of a defensive glue than anything else. I wouldn't use Zapdos so often if it wasn't an amazing teammate for them so A- is fine.

Solerme: Agreed. Zapdos' combination of typing and move poll are quite unique, and with the raise of Mega Blaziken it deserves its old rank imo.

Theorymon: Hmm... I do agree that its defenses are lackluster for a glue Pokemon. Like Psynergy said, its mostly being used because of the Pokemon around it, so its not really the "star of the show" so to speak. I think remaining in A- is fine.

Mega Manectric: UR -> C
cant say: disagree I think it's more B-. cycles intimidates, loves electric terrain, can get a cheeky boost from opposing electric, awesome coverage

chemcoop: UR -> B-: Great speed tier + coverage, and forms a nice intimidate voltturn core with Lando. Still kinda weak though, and don't really know why I would use this to take up my mega slot when I could use Koko for my electric. Usefulness decreased a bit since a lot of Lando are running AV, can soak up the HP Ice, and bop it back with EQ.

DragonWhale: C I guess. It's faster than koko but weaker. Intimidate is pretty average on an electric type.

NOVED: B- intimidate and volt switch is pretty cool. great speed tier. i feel like this is a solid choice on voltturn teams that spam intimidate and all that.

Psynergy: I think this is better than C just because it's a very cool addition to VoltTurn setups with Landorus-T. As an offensive Electric-type it's not as good as Tapu Koko or Thundurus-T which is bad for a Mega but Intimidate utility and that Speed tier are both nice so I say B- is good for this. This is at least better than Raikou.

Solerme: Fantastic offensive coverage with its pseudo BoltBeam and with the access to Overheat and Flamethrower, and with its ability Intimidate, Volt Switch, and its great speed tier, it can act as an annoying offensive pivot. In a metagame so momentum-oriented this qualities are worth it a B rank imo.

Theorymon: B- I actually think Mega Manectric can be pretty neat at times. It doesn't benefit too much from Intimidate, but I do like it on volt turn cores with Landorus-T, and it has a pretty excellent speed tier. It also gets a Fire-type move to roast Ferrothorn, which is awesome. I think these qualities are enough to put it above the C Pokemon at the moment.


Mega Lopunny: UR -> C
cant say: disagree coz it's B-. I think it's a decent meta call, but struggles against some bulky mons and has no chance against mons boosting.

chemcoop: UR -> B-: Like Manectric it has a great speed tier and can bop Gengar + Koko with Fake Out into Return. The ability to HJK with impunity against ghosts is also pretty clutch and can ease the predictions that usually come with using HJK against potential immunities in the back. Despite these positives, it can be pretty underwhelming in damage output, especially in a meta with a lot of intimidate.

DragonWhale: B. Good vs Gengar and Koko. Perfect coverage. If only it had slightly more attack...

NOVED: B- maybe B another great speed tier mon. solid fighting type that doesnt have to worry about aegi switching in on HJK is pretty cool. i just think the competition from blaziken and lucario as a fighting mega is pretty big. that great speed tier almost doesnt look that tempting when you look at blazikens speed boost.

Psynergy: Actually not bad, suffers from Blaziken being a god but unresisted STAB combination is scary and that Speed tier is huge. Really likes Talonflame being dead but it's a bit on the weak side for a Mega. I'd maybe even put this in B, I'd say it's about as good as Mega Alakazam.

Solerme: Same as MegaZam, "wasting "the mega slot make you think twice before choosing it. Yet with its speed tier, offensive presence and Scrappy you can deal common normal/ghost cores. This might be a strong antimeta call, also considering the prevalence of Mimikyu, Gengar and Aegislash. Not to mention that Fake Out + Return can deal with the disguised ghost if rocks are up, that isn't something to be taken lightly. B-

Theorymon: B- I think Scrappy and the Speed tier are enough to put it above the C Pokemon. Being able to use High Jump Kick without worrying about Aegislash siwtching in is pretty exellent imo! It is pretty weak for a Mega Evolution however, so I wouldn't put it any higher personally.

Volcarona: A+ -> A
cant say: disagree lol I already posted in the thread about this

chemcoop: Explained my reasoning for this in the thread already. TL;DR, non-STAB z-moves on this thing are busted and allow it to punch holes through almost any team depending on the set. Towards the bottom of A+ though, since SR are a big problem for it and the ever popular Mega-Blaze can give it some trouble.

DragonWhale: A+. How to make zmoves broken, the pokemon.

NOVED: A+ after using this a little more i've felt better about A+. i think its actually close, like its on the low end of A+ for sure imo and i kind of thought it was A material maybe a week ago. but its really good at blasting checks and taking games away and thats a pretty great thing to do.

Psynergy: I think Mega Blaziken and Stealth Rock being everywhere are fair reasons for Volcarona dropping, but I think BSPL games with Volcarona have shown why it's still an insane threat. Its usage has dropped very slightly but it honestly has about as much versatility as Blaziken, maybe more in terms of viable items. I don't think much has changed for Volcarona, it's not hard to check it's still a dumb mon to face and very few things are ever completely safe against it.

Solerme: Stay A+ You gotta respect QD + Z Moves and its fantastic move poll. There aren't many pokemon that can boast this combination, also having great stats overall.

Theorymon: While I think Mega Blaziken has harmed Volcarona a bit, this thing is still crazy versatile, being able to run an insane amount of Z moves that makes it hard to check, so I think it's fine remaining at A+.

Mandibuzz: UR -> B-/C
cant say: if I had to choose I'd say C but I'm not a fan

chemcoop: UR -> C: Yeah it's pretty fat physically and gets a nice Spore immunity and can do Foul Play + phaze shenanigans but here are my 2 main reasons for putting this at C.
1. 252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mandibuzz in Electric Terrain: 198-234 (91.2 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
2. 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mandibuzz: 186-222 (85.7 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Two super common mons just bop this thing. rip

DragonWhale: B-. It was a lot higher prebank before a bunch of things got foul play but yeah now it lost that edge. Still more physdef than skarmory and has a proper dedicated role as a physical wall. STAB foul play is strong.

NOVED: C theres lots of fairies as well as electrics in the meta. i dont feel like this is that great of a choice as a defensive mon.

Psynergy: I don't really like Mandibuzz but it's hard to deny the usefulness of STAB Foul Play with that kind of bulk. The only really bad things about it are the Dark typing and its passive nature but it fills a very useful niche that few other Pokemon can do. Wouldn't mind this in C but I think B- is fine here, it's not too difficult to fit onto a team and it does its job well.

Solerme: Good tank. Roost and STAB Foul Play are great tools. It even gets Taunt. Yet it is widely outclassed by other things in higher ranks. I'd say B- if we won't add the C+ tier, otherwise C+.

Theorymon: Yeah I think C is fine, Alolan Marowak tumbling in usage made this thing quite a bit less valuable compared to its awesome prebank days, and that Fairy weakness sorta sucks for a defensive Pokemon.

Tapu Lele: A+ -> A
cant say: disagree a lot

chemcoop: While I think the scarf set may have fallen to A, I think bulky lead Specs/Sash sets have become pretty darn good and are used fairly often on high ranking ladder teams. When I was playing 1900/2000 opponents last season, the most common Lele set I saw was lead Specs and it was a problem every time. This thing's sheer damage output in terrain is incredible, and the fact that you have to respect the scarf set means that your "counter" could find itself getting 2HKO'd by an unexpected Specs or Psychium-Z set.

DragonWhale: A+. If it only had scarf as a set then yea it's lower but with the advent of specs and it 2hkoing dedicated resists there's no way it's lower than this.

NOVED: A+ this is definitely no lower than A+. super solid mon that smashes so many things. its best checks even take a shitload of dmg on the switch if its specs.

Psynergy: No way this should drop, I still think this is S rank but at the very least this shouldn't be anywhere below A+ either. Insane wallbreaker and Choice Scarf user with few mons that can really feel safe switching into it, it's like Kyogre if it was Psychic-type instead of Water-type. When you're doing almost 50% to resists with Psychic there's a problem.

Solerme: Stay A+ Already said why before

Theorymon: I'd keep it here because while Scarf is the most used, non Scarf sets can be a REALLY horrible surprise to deal with at times lol.

Garchomp: A+ -> A
cant say: agree sadly. it's definitely a good mon but you can't slap it on a team like the old days. still has a fantastic speed tier and good move / item options. if you're not using mence / zard / lando it's a great pick.

chemcoop: Rip Chomper. I think A is pretty fair for this thing rn. Definitely had its spot usurped by Lando as a rocks setter and as a ground type overall. The fact that it loses to common stuff like Cele and Mimikyu is also pretty troubling.

DragonWhale: A. Rip the king. Should be lower than lando-t.

NOVED: A this thing is solid but i dont feel like its A+ solid personally. i'd rather my ground be not weak to fairy and offer some useful things like a ground immunity and intimidate. i think chomp has enough tough matchups like mimikyu, lando, celesteela, p2, and other fairies to put it down to A. its speed tier is also not that incredible anymore.

Psynergy: I think Garchomp is a bit underrated, I'd have a hard time arguing it back up to S but I think Garchomp still good enough as an A+ mon. Dragon-type mostly got worse this gen but I don't think any of Garchomp's sets have gotten any worse. Landorus-T gives it tough competition as a general utility mon but Garchomp's resistances have plenty of relevance in Fire-type meta and creeping above the crowed 90-100 tier is always useful.

Solerme: Chomp hasn't its crown anymore, that's true, and the competition with Landorus is hurting it as well. Yet this pokemon still acts like a fantastic glue for mostly every team, for example it's the second pokemon in usage, after mimikyu, on nouthuca's bss top teams. So i'd still keep it A+, since it is really one of its kind.

Theorymon: It's weird, I probably use Garchomp more than some of the other A+ mons, but I agree with this just because Fairies among other things made Landorus-T an easier pic for a lot of teams. Still think its a great Pokemon however, its speed tier is actually pretty decent for a Scarfer at least, being able to outspeed those Volcarona!


Changes:
Alolan Ninetales moves from B+ to B-
Umbreon moves from UR to B-
Wobbuffet moves from UR to C
Latias moves from UR to B-
Espeon moves from UR to B-
Golisopod moves from UR to C
Buzzwole moves from B+ to B-
Snorlax moves from UR to B
Eevee moves from UR to C
Mega Alakazam moves from UR to B-
Mega Manectric moves from UR to B-
Mega Lopunny moves from UR to B-
Mandibuzz moves from UR to C
Garchomp moves from A+ to A
 
Last edited:

Koekiekoekje

Banned deucer.
#70
Great changes up there imo
Two questions: who did Gliscor buy presents to become A rank and is Mega Gardevoir going to get ranked? I know Gardevoir faces a lot competition from Tapu Lele but Gardevoir has much stronger Fairy type attacks and has a useful move in Will-o-Wisp. I think Gardevoir is better than Sylveon but I wouldn't give it a high placement but idk idk
I don't know anything about Gliscor so can someone tell me why it would be a so much better OHKO user than Glalie and worth using over Landorus-T? Gliscor is also one of the only Pokémon from A to S rank that is not in the top 30 of usage so I guess more people fail to see its usefulness
 

Jhon

Someday in the Rain
is a Pre-Contributor
#71
I don't know anything about Gliscor so can someone tell me why it would be a so much better OHKO user than Glalie and worth using over Landorus-T? Gliscor is also one of the only Pokémon from A to S rank that is not in the top 30 of usage so I guess more people fail to see its usefulness
SpDef Gliscor is one of the best, if not the best, Aegislash answers this game has. I don't think it's too similar to either Glalie or Landorus-T, but in the sub-tect OHKO game it seperates itself from the former by being far less reliant on team support to get in a good position. That, of course, largely comes from its fantastic typing and ability. In comparison to Landorus-T, they play very differently. Rather than listing the 40-million things Landorus can do I'll just briefly say that the things Gliscor does very well, Landorus-T can't. I've even used both of them on the same team before.
Though Gliscor's usage on the general ladder isn't anything to write home about, on the ladder's summit it is far more common. For instance in this competition, in which only people who've achieved 2200+ on cart during gen6 or 7 were allowed to participate, it was 6th in usage.
 

Psynergy

Escape Route
is a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
BSS Tour Champion
#72
Just posting a PSA now while the thread is slow, but we are currently in the last season of BSS before USUM are released. This means that we only a little under 2 months before this metagame is shaken up by new Pokemon, move tutors and anything else new that gets released. Before that happens I plan to have the VR thread updated one last time so that we have SM BSS as accurately represented as possible. There are new Megas that have yet to be ranked, but if you see anything that you believe is not properly ranked or notice the absence of something you strongly feel should be ranked, now is the time to do so. Don't let the fact that USUM is right around the corner discourage you from suggesting changes now.
 
#73
I'd like to nominate Alolan Muk. It's kind of a one trick pony, but the standard OU assault vest set is a great answer to Charizard Y, Mega Gengar, Koko, Lele, and Volcarona (that's over half the A+ tier btw) as well as Greninja, Primarina, Fini, and Thundurus-T.

He can even pick off inexperienced Aegislash users who aren't expecting the pursuit after the Muk switch in.

I've been using him lately on cartridge and have been pleasantly surprised with his utility and have noticed him a lot more on other teams than I have in the past.

I nominated Alolan Muk for B/B+
 

NOVED

twitch.tv/novedpoke
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
#74
Alright i got a handful of noms i'd like to bring up, les go

Toxapex B+ -> A
This thing was really underrated in BSS for a while I think. It used to be considered mostly just a mon for stall but in the past few months Pex has really shown to be one of the premier mons on balance to deal with Mega Blaziken and other things like Mimikyu and Volcarona. Good typing+bulk, regen, & haze, all make this thing really good. Personally think the Z-Haze sets make this thing reeeally good cause it makes it able to beat really threatening things like SD Zard X. Just a really solid mon imo, deserves A- at worst but I think think A is a good fit.


Porygon2 A -> A+
I don't think i need to do much explaining for this one. We all know what p2 is capable of, it's pretty insane at what it does and it's even pretty versatile as well. It should really be at A+ i think. Easily one of the top mons in the metagame and fills out so many balance teams incredibly well.


Celesteela A -> A+
Steela is able to sit in front of so many mons its unreal. Leech Seed makes things so annoying for the opponent. You can switch in your Steela answer but it just gets seeded and then they bring in a check to your mon and get recovery from the Seeds, it puts you in a pretty good spot as the steela player. And it's amazing bulk makes it so you need to bring something specifically for steela or else you're just screwed, and that usually doesn't give you a wide variety of options given steela's amazing typing. Really great mon, this thing's also the reason Lele isn't S rn imo. I think it's a solid A+.


Mega Swampert B -> B+
This thing is better than Kingdra. I don't think Rain is crazy good but it's respectable for sure. I think if you're running rain Pert is generally the way you wanna go. With ground typing and decent bulk pert can actually afford to switch in on some things unlike Kingdra which imo is pretty difficult to hard switch in most games. Being immune to elec is just a really nice plus for a rain team. And it's scary as fuck under rain ofc.


Mega Manectric B- -> B
This isn't really a huge change but I think Mane's pretty decent. The intimidate cores it usually works on are pretty viable imo, i've seen it played well and I think it's cool. Not a crazy meta threat but I feel B is reasonable for it.


Glalie B -> B+
I feel like Glalie's potential is a little underestimated at B. It can definitely whiff sometimes but glalie setups are a very real thing and can take games away. Only really takes one turn to get glalie in a safe spot to start rolling. I think B+ is a good representation of it's potential.


I kinda wanna nom PZ for A- but gonna hold off on that for now, might bring it up again before USUM drops but maybe not. Just bringing it up cause I think it's pretty close but I'm still gonna be testing with it a little longer before i decide.
 
#75
Alright i got a handful of noms i'd like to bring up, les go

Toxapex B+ -> A
This thing was really underrated in BSS for a while I think. It used to be considered mostly just a mon for stall but in the past few months Pex has really shown to be one of the premier mons on balance to deal with Mega Blaziken and other things like Mimikyu and Volcarona. Good typing+bulk, regen, & haze, all make this thing really good. Personally think the Z-Haze sets make this thing reeeally good cause it makes it able to beat really threatening things like SD Zard X. Just a really solid mon imo, deserves A- at worst but I think think A is a good fit.


Porygon2 A -> A+
I don't think i need to do much explaining for this one. We all know what p2 is capable of, it's pretty insane at what it does and it's even pretty versatile as well. It should really be at A+ i think. Easily one of the top mons in the metagame and fills out so many balance teams incredibly well.


Celesteela A -> A+
Steela is able to sit in front of so many mons its unreal. Leech Seed makes things so annoying for the opponent. You can switch in your Steela answer but it just gets seeded and then they bring in a check to your mon and get recovery from the Seeds, it puts you in a pretty good spot as the steela player. And it's amazing bulk makes it so you need to bring something specifically for steela or else you're just screwed, and that usually doesn't give you a wide variety of options given steela's amazing typing. Really great mon, this thing's also the reason Lele isn't S rn imo. I think it's a solid A+.


Mega Swampert B -> B+
This thing is better than Kingdra. I don't think Rain is crazy good but it's respectable for sure. I think if you're running rain Pert is generally the way you wanna go. With ground typing and decent bulk pert can actually afford to switch in on some things unlike Kingdra which imo is pretty difficult to hard switch in most games. Being immune to elec is just a really nice plus for a rain team. And it's scary as fuck under rain ofc.


Mega Manectric B- -> B
This isn't really a huge change but I think Mane's pretty decent. The intimidate cores it usually works on are pretty viable imo, i've seen it played well and I think it's cool. Not a crazy meta threat but I feel B is reasonable for it.


Glalie B -> B+
I feel like Glalie's potential is a little underestimated at B. It can definitely whiff sometimes but glalie setups are a very real thing and can take games away. Only really takes one turn to get glalie in a safe spot to start rolling. I think B+ is a good representation of it's potential.


I kinda wanna nom PZ for A- but gonna hold off on that for now, might bring it up again before USUM drops but maybe not. Just bringing it up cause I think it's pretty close but I'm still gonna be testing with it a little longer before i decide.

Bro I'm so noob that I can't even understand what a Balanced team is... I know you guys know a lot so I wonder if you can guide me, provide a link or something to understand what those words mean, thanks in advance.