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Bu-Bu-Bu-Bulky Offense

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Red~Rum, Mar 28, 2010.

  1. Red~Rum

    Red~Rum

    Joined:
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    Changes are in bold!

    Let's look at my team.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    Dragonite @ Life Orb
    Quiet Nature
    Attack 252/Special Attack 252/HP 4
    Draco Meteor
    Fire Blast
    Extreme Speed
    Earthquake

    Inner Focus prevents Dragonite from being flinched allowing him to cripple flinch leads. The move pool and EV spread allows him to take out common leads as well. For the bulkier ones, such as Hippowdon and Swampert, Draco Meteor will deal a crippling blow and 2HKO them should they stay in for a subsequent one. Dragonite can also be used late in the game to be a late game mix sweeper.


    [​IMG]
    Metagross@Leftovers
    Adamant Nature
    HP 112/Attack 252/Defense 12/Speed 132
    Agility
    Meteor Mash
    Earthquake
    Thunderpunch

    Metagross and Dragonite work great together they cover each other weakness' they're both bulky and hit hard as well. Metagross can be used late-game as well well as early in the game. Agility makes Metagross one of the fastest things out there and then he can sweep through a team. Meteor Mash for STAB and possibly increase attack, Earthquake covers the nasty fire pokemon and thunder punch helps with water pokemon.


    [​IMG]
    Gyarados@Leftovers
    Adamant Nature
    HP 156/Attack 72/Defense 96/Speed 184
    Dragon Dance
    Taunt
    Waterfall
    Stone Edge

    Gyarados' typing and Dragon Dance works wonders together. He also is another pokemon to absorb ground attacks. He takes fire attacks from Metagross and Scizor (will see in a second) as well. He takes steal hits too which helps counter Bullet Punch Scizors. Stone Edge for critical hits and Waterfall for stab and flinch.

    [​IMG]
    Scizor@Life Orb
    Adamant Nature
    Technician
    HP 32/Attack 252/Speed 224
    Swords Dance
    Bullet Punch
    Bug Bite
    Brick Break

    Scizor's ability to take a hit and set up is amazing. The only issue with the typing is 4x fire which Gyarados handles perfectly. Swords Dance + Life Orb allows him to deal some pretty deadly hits. Technician gives boosts to his attacks and Bullet Punch is STAB'd and priority and Bug Bite is STAB'd. Brick Break helps with steel type pokemons.


    [​IMG]
    Latias@Leftovers
    Timid Nature
    HP 112/Special Attack 204/Speed 192
    Calm Mind
    Recover
    Surf
    Dragon Pulse

    Ok this set is working much better than the old Blissey set I use to run. The spread that I have is pretty decent. Latias has sweeping abilities after 2 Calm Minds, Latias is also helping me with my fire weakness and I see that she causes a lot of switches.


    [​IMG]
    Swampert@Leftovers
    Relaxed Nature
    HP 252/Attack 4/Defense 252
    Stealth Rock
    Roar
    Earthquake
    Ice Beam

    This guy is helping out as well. He supplies the well needed Stealth Rock support my team needs. Also, it's another fire resistance and he is also immune to those dreadful electric moves Gyarados fears. Due to the lack of a recovery move other than Rest, Leftovers are crucial. Earthquake is for taking out special walls, Ice Beam is for physical walls.
  2. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    The Evs in defense on Dragonite need to go into SpAtk. Here is a calc from your current spread against Swampert:

    Quiet Life Orb Dragonite Draco Meteor vs. 252/0 Relaxed Swampert : 58.2% - 68.6%

    After the SpAtk drop this is not enough even to have a chance to 2HKO. With max SpAtk, the 2HKO is guaranteed.

    I may give a proper rate later, but I'm sleepy now! Good luck.
  3. donbosco

    donbosco

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    Get rid of Gengar, replace him with either
    Latias @ Leftovers
    Levitate
    Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
    128 HP / 128 Sp.Atk / 252 Spd
    -Calm Mind
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Surf
    -Recover

    -OR-

    Rotom-H @ Leftovers
    Levitate
    Bold (+Def, -Atk)
    252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Sp.Def
    -Will-o-Wisp
    -Thunderbolt
    -Overheat
    -Pain Split

    Either of them have good Sp.Atk, and actually are bulky I personally use both of them, but I think Latias is the better replacement for Gengar.
  4. Red~Rum

    Red~Rum

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    See I would put them in but Gengar is used in this team as I'm in need of the speed.

    As for Dragonite I did a type-o sorry.
  5. donbosco

    donbosco

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    You could make Latias a Trick scarf Latias then, besides even without it he's got 110 base speed.
  6. Red~Rum

    Red~Rum

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    I don't know Gengar seems to work well especially with Blissey.
  7. Eggbert

    Eggbert

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    Return + Waterfall has better coverage for taunt gyrados, as many things wall or stall stone edge and waterfall. Try bulky scizor set with roost from the smogon analysis.

    And more importantly, get some stealth rocks. Blissey can set them up.
  8. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    I am still not sure on BLissey's place on the team. Its an offensive team yet you use blissey. Personally I think it slows down the momentum of the team.

    Personally something like Latias or Jirachi can do the same as Blissey while still having the offense to not lose momenmtum. Also I don't think that the team really needs para support. Gengar is scarfed, Gyarados is DD and Metagross has Agility. Sure Para is nice for Dragonite and Scizor but it seems like your team does not really need it.
  9. corncake22

    corncake22

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    I'm in a rush but here is my rate.

    Everything seems to be fine expect for Gengar and Blissey.

    Blissey-Does not need 252 hp evs and you could shove those in SpD. You can try 24hp/252defence/232SpD. Blissey has aleady 600+ hp so why add more? Your SpD is alot less so add more into that.

    Gengar-You have a somewhat weakness to DDmence. You can go for HPIce instead of trick or focusblast. But gyarados and blissey(if you get the t-wave) can both hit for super effecitive moves.

    Sorry for the quick rate anyway good luck :D
  10. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

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    hi got your pm,

    first i would replace eq for superpower on dnite. this allows it to OHKO ttar and heatran leads without any significant coverage problems (fblast handles stuff like meta)

    i would then replace gengar for a timid scarf latias with dmetoer, trick, tbolt and surf. latias is a far more effeicient revenge killer in this metagame.

    also i feel blissy's presense in this team unessary and would replace it with a sr heatran since u lack rocks. heatran has good synergy with the rest of the team

    Stealth Rock (Lead)
    Shuca Berry Naive
    Moveset EVs
    ~ Stealth Rock
    ~ Fire Blast
    ~ Earth Power
    ~ Explosion
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    hope i helped
  11. Red~Rum

    Red~Rum

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    Anything other than Heatran that can be but in? I'm not too found of putting him in as I already have 3 with 4x weakness.

    I was thinking about using Swampert but to this team as he also provides rocks and he resists fire and is immune to electric with can be using with Metagross, Scizor and Gyarados
  12. Alan

    Alan

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    Rating upon request:

    Okay, first things first. ScarfGar, trick or no trick, is Pursuit bait, after your opponent realises its a Scarfer, it is easy to counter with another Choice user or something you can sacrifice. I would go Life Orb >>>> Choice Scarf and Protect > Trick. This allows you to scout CB Scizors and other pursuit users. If it uses Bullet Punch switch, if not, HP Fire, which I would strongly recommend you put over Focus Blast, because Focus Blast has too much room to miss and fuck you over.

    I know Dragonite is fun to use and all, and beats alot of stuff, but since this team is more or less heavy offense under a different name, you may want to change it to an anti-lead infernape, man I really have been whoring this out in RMTs alot lately. But it fits your team style pretty well and more importantly, it gets Stealth Rock, which will immensly help your sweepers, turning some 2HKOs to OHKOs and 3HKOs to 2HKOs. Set is below:

    Infernape @ Focus Sash
    64 Atk/ 192 Spe/ 252SpAtk
    Naive Nature
    -Fake Out
    -Stealth Rock
    -Close Combat
    -Overheat/Fire Blast (I prefer Overheat since it usually dies p fast anyway).

    Granted, with using Anti-Lead Ape, you do lose an extra sweeper late game, and another ground immunity, but the asset of Stealth Rocks should more than make up for it.

    Thats all I got for now, hoped my suggestions helped and good luck.

    EDIT:

    @ Below, I guess Blissey works for helping your sweepers deal with faster threats, like SD Scizor can OHKO a para'd Latias, but that seems to be the only use for it.

    I'm not really going to say anything about Pert because tbh, idk. Try it out and if it fits go for it.
  13. Red~Rum

    Red~Rum

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    Thank you do you see any use for Swampert over Blissey?
  14. Plus

    Plus real vibes
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    Hello I just got your PM.

    Your team is really high on the offenses, and your momentum will keep going until you switch in Blissey, and you'd be forced into a defensive state instantly once your opponent brings in a threatening sweeper like Infernape, Lucario, Machamp, Breloom, Scizor, tyranitar, etc. Your lack of SR can be fixed as well, however it seems that Blissey does have its important role in your team, as it is your "go to" pokemon for threatening pokemon like Starmie or Rotom-a. Without changing too much of Blisseys role as a "go to" pokemon in your team, or what I would like to call a pivotal point for your team, I would recommend running a Specially defensive SR Tyranitar. Similar to Blissey, your Tyranitar will be switching in to Heatran, and Starmie Ice Beams as well. Additionally you can pursuit Scarf Rotom and Starmie so you can prevent them from doing further harm to your team.

    The next change I would suggest would be to replace Scarf Gengar with Scarf Rotom-h. While a bit slower, you don't lose to anything that you shouldn't have to lose to, and you gain a really important Steel resistance, so Scizor doesn't threaten you out easily. Additionally you maintain the Ground/Fighting immunities you have, as well as gaining a more important STAB move in the form of Thunderbolt.

    Overall your team's offensive prowess should be maximized while still keeping the bulky aspect -- contrary to other people's beliefs about Dragonite, I think it is a great lead that gets the ball rolling fast by effectively killing off other people's leads. So long as you pack the SR on Tyranitar, there shouldn't be a problem with Salamence coming in at full health against your team, and you can retaliate against DD Mences by saccing one of the pokemon that it's in on and bringing in Scizor to save the day.

    Now, my suggestions would be:

    Tyranitar @ Lum
    Careful 252 hp / 40 atk/ 216 SpD
    Pursuit / Payback/ Stone Edge / Stealth rock

    Rotom-h @ Scarf
    Timid 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 6 HP
    Thunderbolt/ Shadow ball/ Trick/ Overheat

    The spread on Tyranitar ensures that you kill off any Gengar who tries to Focus Blast you, while you fight back with Payback or Pursuit. This should help your team greatly, as it gets rid of Rotom-a relatively well, something that is a stick in the ass with Gyarados and Metagross.

    Try the changes out and see if you like them, good luck!
  15. WoOoShoOo!!

    WoOoShoOo!!

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    Hi, got your PM!

    Your team is really weak to DDmence, and even if you have a revenge killer, it's not enough to take down Mence. Yes, Gengar can cripple mence with Trick however Gengar is easily taken down by CBzor's Bullet Punch. So I suggest replacing Gengar with Latias cause it would be really great since your replacing Blissey with Swampert right? Perfect!

    Use Tricks-Scarf Latias, with that you'll have an awesome Revenge Killer and Tricking your Scarf to cripple walls and use Latias as a late-game sweeper.

    Latias@Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EV: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Trick

    Latias is really better compared to Gengar. Sure Gengar is more offensive but Latias is a lot bulkier which is really handy. 110 Base SpA isn't that bad(only 20 diffference, which is not bad). Latias easily exterminates threats with it's powerful Draco Meteor and tricking it's Scarf in order to sweep with Dragon Pulse. So, it's not that bad you know. Give it a try.

    One last thing. Why not try CBzor? It's really helpful from Early-game to Late-game. Heavily damaging pokemon's Early-game with U-turn and threaten frail sweepers such as Gengar, Azelf, Latias and other pokemon with Bullet Punch/Pursuit. You can also use Scizor to stop Salamence, when Latias is dead. Use Dragonite as bait so that Salamence will use Outrage and switch to Scizor and 2HKO with BP. I just got back so I suck... lol.. I hope this helps!! Good Luck!!
  16. Red~Rum

    Red~Rum

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  17. Sprinkles

    Sprinkles

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    all I can say is....wow. ALL of the rates in this thread make no sense at fucking all, especially for a semi-decent team, and one rate coming from a tutor. I'm going to rip up his first since his is the only one that isn't backed up by reasoning and that COULD work for his team, but just messes up the purpose...

    first off, why use dragonite over tar? dragonite keeps up the pressure early game, and he definitely needs it with an offensive team like this. it stops stealth rock most of the time, while providing a general hard hitter throughout the early-mid stages of the game. tyranitar is just another bulky lead, not doing anything for his team bar removing rotom, which just a cb set could pull more efficiently since it has more power, as well as not being wasted in the lead spot.

    ugh i still can't get over this thread... it saddens me

    now i think a way to complement scizor, gyarados, and metagross would be to run a bait tar over swampert. sure you lose sr, unless you wanna run it on there somewhere, but you gain a way to beat skarmory, blissey, rotom, latias, and other things that shit on your team. you gain a real powerhouse to your team, and swampert just kinda slows it down. i feel latias needs to stay on this primarily physical team in order to lure in blissey so the other members can set up. it also provides powerful draco meteors along with dragonite.

    ugh i hope i helped...good luck
  18. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Actually, Sprinkles, Dragonite pretty much never prevents SR - it sometimes might if it Fire Blasts on a Lum Berry Metagross when running some speed, or has superpower and hits TTar. Against everything else SR can always be set up sacrificially. This leads to somewhat of an SR weakness - with 2 rounds of LO recoil and a switch-in to SR, Dragonite himself will fall rather easily later in the game. Gyarados is also somewhat compromised. I think, however, that Dragonite's priority may prove instrumental in checking certain threats such as Salamence, in conjunction with Scizor's bullet punch, and that the ability to KO every lead should not be underestimated.

    Sprinkles' bait Tar suggestion is, however, excellent. The lack of SR would be pretty bad though, so I think that an SR lead should be used. Swampert could be put into the lead position, for instance, though I believe that he is mediocre in that position, as he is easily taunted, tricked or surprised by a grass attack, and does nothing to prevent setup. I would suggest an Empoleon as an effective anti-lead with SR, but with the addition of TTar you could not afford another ground and fighting weakness. If you did find space for a Rotom, however, this could easily be covered.

    A scarf Latias could still be considered, since this might be necessary to check certain threats such as Gyarados and Salamence, particularly if you opt to remove Dragonite.

    Good luck
  19. Aircraft Cemetery

    Aircraft Cemetery

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    Hello,

    I got your PM and will do my best to help you.
    Well, this is not very easy here as I noticed that the posts above use to contradict each other most of the time. There are many different opinions and tbh not all of them seem very convincing to me. Anyway, I'll just forego this and give you my suggestions on your present team, which is already quite decent.

    Dragonite: I think this is a good lead for your team. It complements your other team members quite nicely and poses a threat throughout the whole game. It's true that Lead Nite won't prevent Rocks most of the time but I also think that its ability to sweep late game is more important for your team. I would however move those 4 HP EVs to Speed in order to outrun other Lead Nites. The choice between Superpower and Earthquake is matter of preference. I would slightly prefer Superpower due to its ability to ohko Blissey, Tyranitar and Heatran.

    Metagross: You should use Life Orb over Leftovers even though you want to be bulky offensive instead of hyper offensive. Without an attack boosting move Meta's sky-high 405 attack really appreciates the 30% from LO. Also you should consider Zen-Headbutt over Thunderpunch. Your present team looks severely WoW-Rotom-A weak, so the chance to 2hko it sounds very appealing. Together with the 20% flinch chance of Zen-Headbutt and the 25% miss chance of WoW you even have a 40% chance that Rotom will never get the chance to hit you at all (if you use Agility on the switch i.e.). Thunderpunch will not be needed because Zen-Headbutt also hits water types fairly hard and still has the flinch chance. Your team can also get in trouble vs machamp, so a stab psychic move helps a lot.

    Gyarados: Not much to say here, the set is fine.

    Scizor: Also fine.

    Latias: I would definitely use the choice scarf variant. Your team has severe problems once an opposing Dragon Dancer got in a boost. Latias will solve that problem. It will also be able to kill Rotom (which gives you trouble as I already said) with Draco Meteor.
    Latias@Choice Scarf
    Timid-252SpAtk, 252Spe, 4HP
    -Draco Meteor
    -Grass Knot / Surf
    -Thunderbolt
    -Trick
    Surf for better coverage, while Grass Knot hits things like swampert and the dangerous Offensive CM Suicune harder. GK also 2hkoes Scarf Tyranitar, ruining all its ambitions to pursuit your only revenge killer. Also your team already has a reliable water move. Trick will help vs stall.

    Swampert: I'm not quite sure about this. It doesn't really fit your team's bulky offense theme. On the other side Stealth Rock and the ability to phaze are really welcome. If you decide to drop swampert, I would suggest Gliscor in that slot. It will still be able to set up rocks while also being able to check SD Lucario, who will run through your whole team after one boost. You will also keep stab EQ. You will lose Roar but gain taunt, which also ruins Baton Pass chains and many set up sweepers. Also Gliscor will help a lot against Stall teams, which your team can really have problems with. If you choose to try this Gliscor, you should also consider using it as your Lead and changing DNite to MixSalamence, who is a better mixed sweeper than MixNite outside the lead position. The sets:
    Gliscor@Leftovers
    Jolly-252HP, 40Def, 216Spe
    Sand Veil
    -Earthquake
    -Taunt
    -Stealth Rock
    -Roost

    Salamence@Life Orb
    Naive-240SpAtk, 252Spe, 16Atk
    -Draco Meteor
    -Fire Blast
    -Outrage
    -Roost
    Custom set of New MixMence. I chose Roost over Earthquake as your team already has 2 powerful EQs and won't absolutely need it here. Roost will help a lot if opposing rocks are down and it fits your bulky offense theme.

    Hope I could help. Good Luck !
  20. Red~Rum

    Red~Rum

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    All I have to say is wow. Thanks for pointing that out to me with Gliscor just instead of all that speed on Salamence why not place the evs in Attack as he is already pretty fast.
  21. Red~Rum

    Red~Rum

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    24 hour bump
  22. Red~Rum

    Red~Rum

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  23. Prownage89

    Prownage89

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    i would consider switching the Speed EV's and HP Ev's for Scizor since it increases its bulk thus allowing to SD more. My reason is that BP is already a 90 power priority, so Speed is unnecessary.
  24. Sprinkles

    Sprinkles

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    do you honestly need to bump this so much? also you never even responded ot my rate,...
  25. george182

    george182

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    I may sound like i'm stating the obvious, but you have 4 set up sweepers, and against a decent team your not going to abble to harness all of there full potential. So i suggest putting a choice band on one of them. I would actually put the choice band on gyrados, as he can lure in scizor/meta counters and gyrados will smack them with suprising power, weakening them enough to be swept. Then if latias got a choice scarf, she could trick them off to help against CM suicune etc. and can smash through physical walls like hippowdon who can wall both scizor and metagross, as well as revenge killing rotom, gengar, salamence and oposing gyrados.

    Hope I helped

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