Budget decks and Budget Techs: HS-__

Discussion in 'TCG' started by FearZeCrawdaunt, May 4, 2012.

  1. FearZeCrawdaunt

    FearZeCrawdaunt

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    Well... I don't think Durant is just a fun deck. I don't think Cinccino is uncompetitive, and I don't think ChandyTales is too shabby either. I think all of them are capable of top cutting (obviously Durant is, even with Heatmor). I can't say I think they'd all take a tournament, but I certainly don't underestimate their potential either. I know from playing my friend against his Cinccino deck that it's actually not terrible (no matter how flippy it sounds). And I've taken top 2 or top 4 at shop tourneys with ChandyTales, and know people who have whiffed on resistance for Top Cut that played it during States/Regionals.

    But yeah, I should do up budget lists of Mono Terrakion and ZekEels. I was hesitant because Catcher in those decks is really more essential, and since your post implies you think that budget Zeels is more competitive than the above listed options, then I'll just say that a Zeels running Reversal is not going to be doing better than a deck like ChandyTales or Cinccino. And if you do include Catchers, it's still in the same price range but I'd still say it's onot going to be doing much better than a deck like ChandyTales or Cinccino (and ChandyTales would benefit strongly from including something like a couple catcher as well). But if I'm including decks like those of course I should include budget Zeels and Terrakion (and was planning on it, but hadn't gotten around to it. I don't really play either of them so I wasn't thinking about them much).

    And I'm not using T&T to say that people should buy from it. It's just good to have a set standard when comparing prices like this. So we can go to the same source that's generally the best simple* comparison tool on the web. I could probably add into the first post though that you can find cards cheaper in person/on eBay for the most part. But for the sake of the discussion we shouldn't use the "you can always annoy people and try to buy ________ at 30% it's T&T price (and will eventually succeed, trust me)" line ever, since the same logic applies to saying that you can get a Mewtwo EX for $25 if you just keep trying (and my friend's done that).

    Mind if I do up a post using your Zeels deck :)? Or if you want to prettify it feel free.
  2. CaptKirby

    CaptKirby

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    Zekrom without Pokemon Catcher and Terrakion without Pokemon Catcher are better than every deck you listed. If you dislike the other switch forcing options, then lost remover/enhanced hammer is probably the next best play (hit special darks, double colorlesses).

    The Chandelure is definitely incapable of top cutting...flipcinno is a deck more like Durant, it can run extremely lucky to get you to a top cut, but you are still not controlling your own destiny with either of those. Not controlling your tournament run is why Durant is only the third best budget option.

    Like I said I am not saying it is not nice that you are trying to do a nice thing, but you may as well advise people to play the top tier of budget decks the same as you would advise them to play the same top tier decks. Like in the video game, the best way for a beginner to learn to play at a high level of competition is to play with the best decks as long as they are not setup/control.

    I am not saying not to have people buy from T&T, but implying they should go buy Pokemon Collectors from Troll/from anyone at $8 is just horrible advice, and would have been at any point from February-now, but ESPECIALLY now when a new set was dropping!

    You cannot get Mewtwos at $25 the same way you can get Terrakions at $2-3. So we should tell people what they can get versus what they cannot. Mewtwos under $45 would have been unrealistic previously (now you could get them as low as $30 for sure), but 4 Terrakions at $8-15 is utterly realistic, and in fact will happen guaranteeed if you ask every person you see with a binder showing at a fairly big event.

    You can post whatever you want about Zekrom or Terrakion, I do not care. I just wanted to make it clear that you are not only not considering the right cheap options (because you should have told people to use stuff like Random Receiver and balls>collector), but that you were advising them to use the wrong decks. This is not a fun decks topic...anyone who is looking to make a budget deck that has a chance at being almost as dominant as a top deck should only build Zekrom or Terrakion...there are plenty of places to go from there, for instance "Troll" a.k.a. Tornadus/Terrakion/options, although that actually needs Mewtwo EX pretty badly these days I think (just from what I hear, have not played with it).

    Also a third cheap deck engine (Typhlosion or Emboar) is the NEXT best cheap deck option over Durant probably! I just forgot it because I was posting late at night with little thought. So I would move Durant all the way down to the fourth best recommendation. Then Donphan/Landorus/???? fighting options are about the only other consideration to make. Zoroark without Darkrai might work well for a cheap deck, but that is something I have absolutely not tested/theoried out though.
  3. FearZeCrawdaunt

    FearZeCrawdaunt

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    It's more a matter of Zekrom without catcher OR Mewtwo, which we both know won't be making top cut. Even with catcher, a Zeels without mewtwo will not be winning any tournament. Though it is a great first deck to build a competitive deck from. But still, a tier 1 deck without a tier 1 list is no better than a tier 2-3 deck with a good list. Mono terrakion is a good one though, since it plays catcher to disrupt as well as KO unlike Zeels which plays catcher mainly to KO. So you can definitely get by with enhanced hammer or something similar.

    And if your opinion is that chandytales can't top cut, then that's that. But I think it can, and was actually probably gonna run it this battle roads since it's not too big a tourney. And as far as controlling your destiny goes, I agree and disagree. I agree controlling your games is easier with a non-flippy deck but the flips are the equalizing factor to counterbalance the lack of money cards. With a deck like cinccino, it doesn't matter if you don't have mewtwo because you've set up a board where all attackers are pretty much equals, but you're at a slight advantage. And with durant, you can call it flippy if you want but results don't lie. And a good durant player makes it a skilled game, they just get bogged down in the sea of average players who play durant because they can't afford mewtwos.

    But I do disagree with only advising players to play the top tier decks but on a budget. The top tier decks are as such because of top tier cards. Without them, they're no better than tier 2-3 decks. Except that they aren't equipped to deal with top tier threats anymore. What does a zekeels do against a deck with 2 mewtwos if it has none? Whereas the three decks currently listed all have answers to the most of the format.

    And I'm not really trying to imply anyone should buy the cards for T&T prices, but to suggest listing prices as a running average of what people can get them for locally is too complicated to be useful. I mean, following that notion, you can get a ChandyTales deck for like... $15-$20. How should I go about saying this aside from just saying it in the first post (which is what's been stated)? I mean, if I want to standardize things, then I'll use standardized prices... that's all there is to it.

    I'd say the whole discussion of "buying cheap" is more like an entirely different topic. This topic is about using cards/decks which don't cost much on average, not about how to make fiscal decisions so that your decks cost less. That could be an entirely different and fruitful topic though :)

    And Durant is just better with Collector. I do mention you can run balls to make it cheaper, that's where the minimum price listed comes in, and why there's a discussion after the decklist in my posts. ChandyTales didn't run collector, and Cinccino is a trainer lock deck... so obviously it's not running balls. So I haven't really had the option to tell people to run Random Receiver + Balls > Collector...

    (edit: Just looked over Durant, I mentioned you could make it without collectors but never explained how. Edited that in now. Sorry for confusion*)

    And Emboar is just bad... Haha. Typhlosion is legit, but I'd say Durant is more legit (and States/Regionals would agree with me). Donphan I like... but it also gets destroyed without Mewtwo. I was playing Donphan/Mewtwo for a bit locally and it needs the Mewtwos. Donphan only has an effective 140 HP and a paltry 60 damage attack for the first couple turns. An eviolited Mewtwo that gets charged up quickly ruins your day. Still not a bad budget option, but other than Mono-Terrakion these decks aren't really flexible in how they handle matchups. Zoroark without Darkrai would probably be a great budget deck, but I haven't tested it much.
  4. CaptKirby

    CaptKirby

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    Sending a new player to a tournament for the first time with either Chandelure will result in a 1-6/2-5/3-4 day...send them with a Durant and it will be random wins, more commonly losing. Send them with a no Mewtwo Zekrom list, and they should go at least 3-4/4-3 unless they are very stupid. Same with Reshiram or anything else. Zekrom has ruled the format in some form for six months, but you think Ninetales/Chandelure is the just as good? You are just dispensing very bad advice.

    Durant is not better with Collector. Maybe in the mirror and then against 0 other decks.

    Emboar is bad, but fire Chandelure+Ninetales is good? Yeah, you sure know how to win. Your crap is awesome, but less than crap stuff is crap, sure thing. Emboar/Magnezone with no Mewtwo is better than everything you recommended, and with $1 Rare Candy and the ability to buy Magnezones super easily at $2-3 in real life (anyone could pick up 10 at that price right now) is not expensive at all.

    I imagine more people played Durant in states or regionals than fire decks. I do not really care which is the case, I am not at all concerned about Durant.

    Telling people to buy on ebay instead of buying fake prices on troll is not a different topic. It is where to find the real price of things. You have to find a seller with enough of what you want to make the shipping worthwhile is all.
  5. FearZeCrawdaunt

    FearZeCrawdaunt

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    If you'd like a game or two, words are getting us nowhere. And I have to disagree, Durant is definitely better with collector. Level Ball is great, but Dual Ball is flippy. T1, 4 Durants is absolutely best achieved with Collector. No questions asked.

    And yeah, I definitely rank Chandelure/Ninetales above a Reshiboar variant.

    And I'm not changing the price comparison method. I will standardize the prices by an online store. That is just how it's going to be. Anything else is a retarded way to compare deck costs, because anyone can come in and say they can buy stuff locally for cheaper. For instance, over here, no way are you getting Magnezones for $2-3. Even on eBay it's going for $6.50 at the lowest (with shipping). Same with Terrakions. Maybe where you live, but that doesn't apply everywhere. If you want to call a price fake, I think giving people the promise of being able to get cards at significantly lower cost than their value is a fake price. A store-based value is anything but a fake price. It may be inflated, but at least it's a commercial value.
  6. FearZeCrawdaunt

    FearZeCrawdaunt

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    Right now, Zekrom/Eelektrik is a pretty clear BDIF (Best Deck In Format) thanks to its consistency and raw power. The base elements don't cost too much, and give you a good bunch of cards to base future lists off of, so it makes a great first deck to build upon. One of the great parts about this deck is that it will also be largely unaffected by the rotation, since most of the cards are BW-on.

    [​IMG]
    Here's a sample decklist:​

    Pokemon: 15
    ($173.00)

    2 Smeargle $4
    2 Zekrom $2
    2 Mewtwo EX $120
    1 Raikou EX $18
    1 Tornadus EX $25
    4 Tynamo $1
    3 Eelektrik $3

    Trainers/Supporters/Stadiums: 33
    ($7.50/$60.75 = $68.25)

    4 PONT $4
    4 Juniper $2
    3 N $1.50

    2 Dual Ball $1
    2 Level Ball $1
    1 Ultra Ball $1
    1 Random Receiver $2
    2 Plus Power $0.50
    2 Switch $0.50
    4 Junk Arm $16
    4 Pokemon Catcher $36
    1 Super Rod $0.25
    1 Eviolite $1.50

    2 Skyarrow Bridge $1

    Energy: 12
    ($4.00)

    4 Double Colorless Energy (DCE) $2
    8 Lightning $2

    Total Cost: $245.25
    Cost of Staples: ~$220.00​

    Alright, so I know what you're thinking... How the hell is a $250 deck considered budget? Well... how this thread is formatted is to provide you with a good list of the deck and then offer you budget replacements if you feel that you don't want to spend the extra money for the optimal list. So this deck should be displayed no different, it's just that an optimal list costs a lot more than the other decks. I'd add that there are many different flavours you can add to ZekEels to personalize it to become your very own, so the list above is by no means a set standard "best" list.

    The cost of the staples of this deck is also somewhat inflated. This is because I'm including Mewtwo EX and Tornadus EX (not Raikou EX) in the staples category. Mewtwo EX is obvious, but Tornadus EX isn't as much, so I'll quickly elaborate. I think having 1 Tornadus EX can be considered a staple since it's so useful in so many decks. The idea of listing the staples cost is to show how much of the deck's cost is going to go towards cards that can be used in multiple decks. i.e. How much of your investment will be useful outside of this one deck? If you're going to play on a budget, it's good to be smart with your money and not spend too much erroneously on cards you'll never use again. So the "Cost of Staples" listing is used to inform the reader that the rest of the cost is less splashable in other decks.

    To provide a quick blurb, this deck's strategy is to hit hard, fast and consistent. Pretty difficult to see what can go wrong if you pull that all off, and this deck has got the goods. The list above is equipped with 3 different EX cards (4 total) to help you out when facing many aspects of the metagame. Thanks to this toolbox, the deck can deal with practically any deck you throw at it. Just use the right attacker for the right situation.

    [​IMG]
    Now, considering this is a "Budget Decks" thread, how can you build this tier 1 powerhouse for cheap? Well, here's another sample list to get you started:​

    Pokemon: 15
    ($20.00)

    1 Smeargle $2
    3 Zekrom $3
    1 Zekrom EX $6 - (optional, could run another Zekrom BW, but Zek EX really helps this build out)
    1 Thundurus $1
    2 Tornadus $4 - You could also use Zapdos @ $0.50/card
    4 Tynamo $1
    3 Eelektrik $3

    Trainers/Supporters/Stadiums: 32
    ($7.50/$53.25 = $60.50)

    4 PONT $4
    4 Juniper $2
    3 N $1.50

    3 Dual Ball $1.50
    2 Level Ball $1
    1 Ultra Ball $1
    2 Random Receiver $4
    3 Plus Power $0.75
    2 Switch $0.50
    4 Junk Arm $16
    3 Pokemon Catcher $27
    1 Eviolite $1.50

    Energy: 13
    ($4.00)

    4 DCE $2
    9 Lightning $2

    Total Cost: $85.00
    Cost of Staples: ~$70.00​

    Here we have a fairly similar build. The core of the deck remains largely untouched, but there are some obvious and big differences.

    First off, we've cut our old EX's. Our wallet was too tight to justify spending so much on only 4 cards. However in their place we have some alternate attackers. The deck is now running an extra Zekrom, Zekrom EX, Thundurus and 2 copies of Tornadus EPO. The deck is definitely looking to add a couple mewtwo EX if it could, but Zekrom EX has been added to provide a behemoth that can stand up to Mewtwo EX and come out in an approximately equal exchange. Without this card, any deck running a couple Mewtwos will beat you down by loading energies onto Mewtwo. Zekrom EX is only 2 Pluspowers away from 1HKO'ing Mewtwo.

    Tornadus serves a slightly different role than its EX counterpart, but they're both included with fighting decks in mind. The biggest difference is in how aggressive Tornadus EX is. Getting a tornadus EX out first turn can donk with a DCE and stadium in play, and even if you whiff, still threatens a turn 2 100 damage. Tornadus EPO can do neither of these things, but at least can threaten a turn 2 80 damage. However we now have included an attacker that can do this job much better. Thundurus.

    Charge gets you a consistent turn 2 80 damage which can probably take a prize with a pokemon catcher. If you're on a budget though, you could run a pokemon circulator or reversal. Unfortunately, this is all I can recommend on a budget beyond cutting the EX's. But at least know that your buck should go a fair ways in allowing you to build more decks in the future.

    The last big change which probably doesnt SEEM too drastic is dropping the skyarrow bridge and one Smeargle. Without Tornadus EX, Skyarrow Bridge becomes far less useful. You just have to be pro-active about dynamotoring an energy onto smeargle before you have to bring it out, to help make sure you can use it appropriately.

    As I said, this deck doesn't really have many switchouts for a budget option, but it's not so expensive that you can't build a pretty competitive build for not too much. The minimum cost of $59 comes from dropping three catchers and adding three reversals or circulators.

    Minimum cost: $59.00, Maximum cost: $245.00
  7. MiniWade

    MiniWade

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    Or just go dark.. You can grab the zoruarks and pretty much the things you need off the starter decks.
  8. Huy

    Huy INSTANT BALLS
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    Often times, the Pokemon are not the expensive part of the deck, but the trainers required. In starter decks, those come in 1's or 2's and most of the time you need 4.
  9. FearZeCrawdaunt

    FearZeCrawdaunt

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    ^ What he said

    For instance, Pokemon Catcher. That's the biggest cost of any of these budget decks :P
  10. Dozz

    Dozz Has anyone in this family ever seen a chicken?
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    I can't really afford to invest too much into TCG right about now, but I have a lot of trainers left from my Durant deck. As fun as this was, I'm gonna need something more up to date. I asked Makiri what would be a good budget deck to look at next, and he suggested Zoroark. Does anyone have experience/lists for this and how it stands up in a normal tournament setting? I'm not expecting to win, but not getting thumped is always nice. Would like to build something new without having to fork out as I can't afford the big EX's right now. (Pullking Gigas EX was painful)
  11. FearZeCrawdaunt

    FearZeCrawdaunt

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    Well, Zoroark is largely supported by Darkrai EX, and Weavile UD. Weavile's going to be rotated come September (probably), so... by itself, I don't know if Zoroark is really competent enough. It's also kind of fragile, with both it's basic and stage 1 getting 1-shotted by stuff like Tornadus EX on T1 and T2.

    It's not a bad deck (tier 2ish), but another pretty competent deck which should be able to maintain it's place after the rotation is Empoleon DEX. Many people like running Terrakion alongside Empoleon to counter the Zeels matchup, which isn't a cheap card thanks to all the mono-terrakion decks being made, driving up it's price/demand. But it's also a solid card investment, since Terrakion will remain a valuable card for a long time.

    So if you can trade for 2-3 Terrakion NVI's, then a cheap deck to build with them is Empoleon. Of course, getting 3-4 Terrakions means you could also explore mono-fighting as a deck, which is also a solid play right now (probably more solid than Empoleon for now).

    How are you getting your cards?
  12. rax

    rax

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    You could also try supporting it with Sableye DEX, particularly after rotation, although I think it would still suffer from the lack of Darkrai. I looked at the other Dark Pokemon available and... welp. Empoleon is probably a better choice and has more generic (usable later in other decks) trainer requirements, although if Dozz already has the dark patches/dark claws that doesn't matter much.
  13. Dozz

    Dozz Has anyone in this family ever seen a chicken?
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    I'll probably buy them (Troll and Toad), I just don't have the funds for something with Darkrais right about now. I have one Terrakion knocking about anyways, from lucky pulls (I'm easily caught when they're by the checkout, and I'm paying on card. Don't judge me). I like the sounds of Empoleon though. Any lists or links for this would be much appreciated!
  14. FearZeCrawdaunt

    FearZeCrawdaunt

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    Yeah, that's why I was wondering :) If you're buying em off T&T then yeah, picking up extra Terrakions is a bit crazy right now ($10 for just the holo rare).

    But here's an Empoleon list and article: http://www.sixprizes.com/deck-analysis/attack-commander-in-chief-empoleon-dex/ :)

    Next time I update this thread I'll probably put Empoleon in. I don't think it has to be too too expensive. As bad as it seems, I've also seen/heard of people trying Aerodactyl's in their list with Twist Mountain to up Empoleon's total damage and provide an attacker that can help finish a 2HKO with a DCE+Exp Share, without giving up an Empoleon. The idea being that Empoleon's attack power can be stifled by a lack of Pokemon on your opponent's bench, so Aerodactyl helps make up for that.
  15. zero2exe

    zero2exe Ready for duty Dood!
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    Well I tried an Empoleon deck not too long ago and it actually proved to be effective against Zekeel. More importantly Empoleon proved to be a very effective answer aganist Mewtwo Ex despite not having one of my own as empoleon can easily deal around 80-100 damage overall against this kind of deck (due to eelektriks, mewtwo, smeargle and whatever sitting everywhere). However you do need to have a benched terrakion at all times (if not 2) to put some pressure on those Zekrom (both normal and ex) so they think twice before KOing Empoleon. What I liked most aobut it is the acceleration empoleon gives as I could get rid of my supporters to get 2 more cards while opposing smeargle couldn't portrait anything from my hand.
  16. FearZeCrawdaunt

    FearZeCrawdaunt

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    Empoleon in the future will get Mew EX which will become an answer to Mewtwo EX. You can drop Mew with a water energy and Mass Attack for the return KO. Empoleon can have Mewtwo wars too guys!
  17. zero2exe

    zero2exe Ready for duty Dood!
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    However that would only end up in a "mewtwo ex vs mew ex war" as mewtwo ex only needs a DCE to revenge kill back. Still mew ex fits empoleon deck better than mewtwo so both sides should be equal on that matter

    Edit: sadly mew ex would beat the whole purpose of "Budget decks" while with the release of the promo mewtwo Ex that card might become part of the "budget ranks" D:
  18. FearZeCrawdaunt

    FearZeCrawdaunt

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    I don't think Mew EX will be too expensive. It really only has 2 purposes. To work as a Mewtwo in Empoleon decks, and to try and loop Deck and Covers in Gothitelle/Accelgor decks.

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