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Building the way!

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Blood Tears, Sep 15, 2010.

  1. Blood Tears

    Blood Tears

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2009
    Messages:
    91
    Hello guys, welcome to my second RMT! What I'm going to show is a pretty offensive team which gave me a lot of satisfactions. It requires a lot of prediction -I'm not the best player in the world and so sometimes I've lost for some mispredict, but if played correctly it can provide excellent results. But, just one mispredict can compromise all the match, and that's why I decided to post it here. I just want to know if there could be some change that I didn't consider, and that could provid me to keep the offensiveness of the team and at the same time improve the balance. Well, without other useless words, here's the team!

    Note: The description aren't updated.

    Changes will be in italic.


    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Heatran @ Life Orb
    Ability: Flash Fire
    4 HP / 252 Speed / 252 SpAtk
    Mild nature (+SpAtk, -Def)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Overheat
    - Explosion
    - Hidden Power [grass]

    Why this Pokémon? Why this set?
    Chople Berry Heatran! Well, I absolutely didn't want one of the Suicidal leads such as Azelf or Aerodactyl, so I opted for Heatran for many reasons. Initially, it was a classic Shuca Berry lead. After testing it, I realized that this team had a terrible weakness to lead Machamp. The whole team is OHKOed and 2HKOed by DynamicPunch bar Gengar, which, if Hypnosis misses, is destroyed by Payback. That's why I chose to run Chople Berry over Shuca Berry: DynamicPunch from a max atk Machamp now does 53.25% - 62.84%, while Machamp is 2HKOed by Fire Blast (58.85% - 69.27%); in the lead match-up I will come out as winner, since I'm faster than it. Stealth Rock can be easily laid down later, due to Heatran's useful resistances which allows me many switch-in in the mid game. Plus, most people often don't try to hit me with ground moves expecting a Shuca Berry and believing I would survive. Heatran could also play the role of bulky waters lurer, for a) weakening them to facilitate the sweep of another member of the team, b) giving Kingdra easy switches.
    Last but not least, Heatran, thanks to its resistance, is a good check to many scarfers that currently play around (it can enter on the Gengar's Shadow Ball, Infernape's Fire Blast, Flygon's Outrage and U-Turn, Rotom's Overheat, Will-o-Wisp and Shadow Ball...)

    EVs & Nature:
    Standard Heatran's EV, maximizing speed and spatk for a better offensive power at the cost of less-resistance. Being this an offensive team, the battles are often really fast, and so I have to do more damages as possible.
    Considerable changes:
    Changing the set in a classic Life Orb or Shuca Berry lead Heatran, but I explained why I'm scared of Machamp. Also, run Explosion over Hidden Power [Grass], but I don't think it's a good idea because I also have another powerful Exploder and Blissey is not a problem.

    I'm not going to do a list of my match-ups against all the common leads, for the simple reason that every good player will surely understand against which ones I'm in trouble.


    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Metagross @ Lum Berry
    Ability: Clear Body
    60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Speed
    Jolly nature (+Speed, -SpAtk)
    - Agility
    - Earthquake
    - Meteor Mash
    - Explosion

    Why this Pokémon? Why this set?
    I've talked about undermining Bulky Waters in order to facilitate the sweep to another member of the team. Well, as you've probably understood I was just talking about Metagross. Doubling its low speed with Agility, this thing reaches a stats peer to 405, which is hard to outspeed even for scarfed Pokémon. But it's easy to realize how it works, just send Metagross on something than can't touch it and use Agility on the switch. What I have to do is explaining WHY I chose it. The main reason is Explosion. Unexpectedly, most people do not expect an exploder agiligross - and this obviously goes to my advantage. The point is that I don't use Metagross as a lategame sweeper, as most of you could think. More often, its purpose is to weaken the opposing Pokémons or, if this could produce a "leak" into the opposing defenses in order to make easier the sweep of another Pokémon of mine, explode to break down at least one. There are a lot of threaths that I managed to smash in this way: Gyarados, Swampert, Starmie, Vaporeon, Celebi, Zapdos, Gliscor... All Pokémon that normally come out to counter Metagross, but can not withstand to Explosion. I could also decide not to explode and give a free-switch in to Kingdra against bulky waters. If, instead, I managed to impair enough its counters, eg using the above-mentioned Hidden Power [grass], or to send them to sleep, Metagross can pay off as a lategame sweeper, too, being able to survive even to an Earthquake from a Jolly Scarfgon. This set is totally walled by Rotom, though (does Metagross have a set which is not walled by Rotom, anyway?!), but I can deal with it in different ways: I have Heatran to switch into the Shadow Ball and the Will-o-Wisp, Flygon to switch into the Thunderbolt and -in Rotom-w case, since now is so popular- Kingdra to switch into the Hydro Pump. Naturally, it needs really a lot of prediction, even if, to be honest, Metagross is the only member of the team upon which Rotom has a risk-less switch-in.
    In addition to its purely offensive task, Metagross helps the team in checking dangerous threats. It helps a lot against Gengar -which always runs away, frightened by a possible Bullet Punch-, Azelf (same as Gengar), Tyranitar and Jirachi. Its Dragon resistance, also, is always welcome (for revengekilling dragons locked into Outrage). Its Explosion has a defensive role, too, allowing me to eliminate a dangerous threat that I couldn't stop easily.
    Lum Berry is here to prevent any kind of status, especially paralysis and burn, and because I didn't need such an offensive power to sacrifice the 10% of my HP at each move.

    EVs & Nature:
    196 Speed EVs give me a speed stat of 225, meaning that after a single Agility Metagross will be able to outspeed all neutral-natured 100 base speed with a single speed boost (such as Scarf Jirachi or the now-so-common Scarf Flygon). Max atk for doing damages as much as possible. The rest are put into HP, for giving it some more bulkyness. To give you an idea, Metagross can survive to an Earthquake from Adamant Scarfgon even after SR damage, set-up an agility and then sweep.
    Considerable changes:
    Errrr, nothing I guess.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Gengar @ Wide Lens
    Ability: Levitate
    4 HP / 252 Speed / 252 SpAtk
    Timid nature (+Speed, -Atk)
    - Hypnosis
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast
    - Substitute

    Why this Pokémon? Why this set?
    This set is absolutely destructive. The "highlight" of this set is that no one more expects Hypnosis Gengar. In a metagame full of subsplit and scarfed Gengar, by now all people always send their Scizor, Tyranitar, Snorlax, ecc., being duly sent to sleep by Hypnosis (barring any miss). Wide Lens could look stupid, but incresing Hypnosis and Focus Blast's accuracy even of 10% can be really determinant, especially on a Pokémon like Gengar that can't take so many hits mostly because I don't use Substitute. In the first place, I was running Destiny Bond over Hidden Power Fire: it worked out well when I dealt with bulky stat-uppers, slower than me, but turned out to be suicidal due to the great amount of Scizor in the current metagame. I then decided to run Substitute, for being more protected in case of Hypnosis miss, and with all the Gengar's resistances and immunity I could always set-up it. This allowed me not to be OHKOed if the opponent was running a Lum Berry, too. But then I saw that most Scizor, thanks to their powerful priority which is Bullet Punch, stopped my locked-into-Outrage Kingdra, or anyways they severaly damaged it. That's the reason that convinced me to use Hidden Power Fire over Substitute: I really defeated almost all the Scizor I came up against. They're the most predictable thing I ever met. The lack of Scizor allows me an easiest sweep with my Kingdra, once it is locked into Outrage. But sometimes I really miss Substitute, like when I'm undecided. Just a dogmatic question.
    In terms of synergy with the other members, Gengar can easily switch on the Ground moves directed to Heatran and Metagross and the Fighting moves directed to Heatran. I also love its double resistance to U-Turn, taking a maximum of 32% even on the U-Turn of Adamant Choice Band Scizor (even if NO SCIZOR would use u-turn against a gengar, well...), but yeah, sometimes I feel really crazy and I send Gengar on a predicted u-turn of things like Scarfgon.

    EVs & Nature:
    Just the standard spread, reaching amazing levels of spatk and speed stats.
    Considerabe changes:
    As I said before, I don't know which is better between Hidden Power Fire or Substitute. Hidden Power Fire gave me the best satisfactions, anyway, but I can say it works well with both the moves. Explosion could be another option, but because of the negative nature and the lack of Life Orb I think it wouldn't deal so much damages as needed.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Flygon @ Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    116 Atk / 176 Speed / 218 SpAtk
    Naive nature (+Speed, -SpDef)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Earthquake
    - Roost
    - Fire Blast

    Why this Pokémon? Why this set?
    I curse myself for not being able to build a team without Flygon. Especially with THIS Flygon. If you try to find some Pokémon that could enter in safety against this thing, I bet you couldn't say more than two or three Pokémon. I see this set much more useful than the over-over-over-used Scarfgon, which I see practically in every team I battle against. Mixed Flygon enjoys an higher power thanks to Life Orb and if you combine this with the amazing base power of its three offensive moves and the perfect coverage that they provide, this dragon turns out to be really destructive. Being able to change move is a self-evident advantage. Many times being locked into Outrage means that almost all the steel pokemon can enter and kill you with the right move. And the chance of using Roost provides an outstanding staying power, despite of the Life Orb recoil. I also feel LOVELY don't having to be afraid of the common Wish-Protecy Blissey and Vaporeon; this Flygon is a wonderful stallbreaker, due to its immunity to spikes and toxic spikes and stealth rock resistance.
    The diffusion of Choice Scarf Flygon allows me to bluff a scarf set in the early turns, even if when I'll go for one of my offensive moves obviously my trick will be revealed.
    However, Flygon is here mostly because I needed something that lures Skarmory, Forretress and Gyarados. These three can cause me some trouble in Kingdra's sweeping, Skarmory with Whirlwind, Forretress with Explosion and its great defense and Gyarados with Intimidate. Flygon deal with them with Fire Blast for the two steel Pokémon and Draco Meteor for Gyarados (it does a lot of damages especially if coupled with Stealth Rock). Its Ground and Electric immunities (which provide me to enter on the Earthquakes directed to Heatran and Metagross) are really appreciated, and so its rock resistance which helps against Tyranitar and its fire one which supports against Heatran. The poison resistance is a bit less useful but who cares, lol.

    EVs & Nature:
    176 Speed + Naive nature allows me to outspeed all the neutral-natured base 100 and all the positive-natured base 90 pokemon; more EVs are put in the special attack because Draco Meteor is my main attack thanks to its great neutral coverage, and because Flygon's attack stat has 20 points more than the special attack one.
    Considerable changes:
    Stone Edge or U-Turn over Fire Blast? Stone Edge would be for Gyarados, which is hardly hit by Draco Meteor though, and Zapdos, while U-Turn for scouting and for preventing unwelcome switchs. Fire Blast, on the other hand, OHKOs even the SpDef EV'd Skarmory and hits hard Bronzong, both of which are immune to Earthquake and resist Draco Meteor. Essentially, Flygon would lose the chance to KO Kingdra's counters. Another possible option is an Expert Belt set, which is even better to bluff a scarf set, but I'm really doubtful about it since my main attacking move is Draco Meteor, which is super effective only against other dragon and really needs the added power that Life Orb gives.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Shaymin @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Natural Cure
    4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Speed
    Timid nature (+Speed, -Atk)
    - Seed Flare
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power Ice
    - Healing Wish

    Why this Pokémon? Why this set?
    Well, as you can see I don't like using standard sets. In most of my teams, I try to find unexpected sets for expected Pokémon: this makes no exception. Recently the Life Orber set with Seed Flare, Earth Power, Hidden Power Ice / Fire and Rest is increasingly prevalent. Indeed, I preferred to use Shaymin as a revengekiller, because of its good coverage and the equilibrated stats. Shaymin helps against the dragon, revengekilling them with Hidden Power Ice, the waters, and Earth Power always takes some Heatran in predict. I love the odness given by Healing Wish, which no one uses but I think it's pretty useful. Being this a pretty offensive team, I didn't want to "waste" a slot using rest, which would force me to switch. Indeed, this team tries to close the match as soon as possible: when my HP are low, maybe under 12% which wouldn't allow me to enter another time if Stealth are up, using Healing Wish lets me heal one of my sweepers and come back to attack, and it saved me in too many situations. Naturally, it requires a great prediction since if the opposing Pokémon is slower than me, after I use Healing Wish and sacrifice me, the entering Pokémon will be hit. Being Shaymin a positive-natured scarfed base 100, it would probably be always faster. Luckily, no one expects this set and always tries to finish Shaymin with predictable moves. Its weaknesses are all covered by at least two of my Pokémon: Fire (Heatran, Flygon and especially Kingdra), Ice (Heatran, Metagross), Bug (Gengar, Heatran), Flying (Heatran, Metagross) [is there anyone that uses offensive flying moves?!] and Poison (Heatran, Metagross, Flygon, Gengar). Shaymin, also, represents my third Ground resistance and my second water and electric one, being momentous in LO Starmie's checking.
    EVs & Nature:
    Pretty offensive EVs, I preferred a Timid nature instead of Modest in order to have the speed tie with jolly scarfgon and outspeed all neutral-natured scarfed base 100.
    Considerable changes:
    Most of you may want to know why I chose Shaymin instead of Celebi. Well, they can learn almost the same moves and both are grass-type. The stats are just the same. The main thing that suggested me to choose Shaymin was Celebi's secondary type. Being a Psychic Pokémon could be an advantage if you think that I'd gain another Fighting resistance, but I'd be too vulnerable to the now-so-common Pursuit. The Pursuit weakness would force me to run Hidden Power Fire for Scizor instead of Hidden Power Ice, and I'll lost my main dragon-revengekiller. Also, having another Pokemon weak to Ghost would be really unhelpful for countering Rotom-w, against which I can't send Heatran in absolute safety. Lastly, I just preferred Seed Flare to Leaf Storm for its better sweeping capacity, thanks to the spdef drop chance and the lack of the spatk drop.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Kingdra @ Chesto Berry
    Ability: Swift Swim
    144 HP / 160 Atk / 40 SpDef / 164 Speed
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpAtk)
    - Outrage
    - Waterfall
    - Dragon Dance
    - Rest

    Why this Pokémon? Why this set?
    Meh, chesto berry Kingdra suddenly got my love. I've been using it just briefly, but it is just amazing with the right support. Most of you may know how this set works, since recently it is really common. Just send Kingdra on things like Bulky Water or not-Life Orbed Heatran, Dragon Dance while they try to break me down and Rest when you're at low health. Anyhow, I use it with a different EV spread, as I will explain later. I needed a power-up sweeper that could break down all the remaining defenses after I weakened enough the opposing team. Well, Kingdra has anything I could ask for: an excellent offensive typing that provides two powerful STABs (Water and Dragon are probably the best offensive types of the game) and only one weakness, average defenses and -probably- the best boosting move in the game.
    In the mid-game, Kingdra helps against Heatran, LO Starmie and generally Bulky Waters, although if it's possible I try to hide it until the lategame.
    I just don't see much more to say, this things is just a beast.

    EVs & Nature:
    The spread is a bit different from the standard: 172 Speed EVs give me a speed stat of 249, making me faster than all the positive-natured base 120 after a single Dragon Dance. Max atk and Adamant are for maximizing its offensive power, while the remaining EVs are put into HP for a better resistance.
    Considerable changes:
    Nothing <3



    That's it. Hope you can help me, and thanks for reading!
  2. Scimjara

    Scimjara Bert Stare

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,002
    Hello Blood Tears nice team you have yourself, I have a few suggestions that may help you out! Props to you for using Hypnosis Gengar my favorite special sweeper even with the 60% accuracy it's still amazing. Solid team not much to say just have a few suggestions on different move sets to use.

    Well on your Heatran Chople Berry is completely irrelevant even if it so helps you against Machamp leads which it honestly doesn't since there is confusion involved. You are better of using LO Heatran since that ko's Machamp with Overheat and Swampert with Hidden Power Grass unlike your current set. Overheat also ko's Colbur Berry Azlef and Hippowdown. By pursuing this switch you will completely drop the concern you have over Anti lead Machamp. Unlike the Choice Specs set this allows you to set up SR as well as attack with out being locked in one move.

    Heatran @ Life Orb | Flash Fire
    Modest | 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
    Stealth Rock | Overheat | Hidden Power Grass | Explosion

    I also suggest you run Sub/Hypno Gengar. From experience I can tell you this is the better set I've hit #4 and #6 on SU ladder with Sub/Hypno Gengar on the team. Subsitute allows you to safely sweep and helps in late game situations. Even with out using Wide Lens you still have a 84% chance to hit at least once out of two uses. Many people argue that Hypnosis is still unreliable but for those who are willing to take the risk you will be greatly benefited. Once you put something to sleep, get behind a sub, and then wreak havok.

    Gengar @ Black Sludge
    Timid | 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
    Substitute | Hypnosis | Focus Blast | Shadow Ball

    You should also use Zen Headbutt on Metagross so you aren't terribly walled by Rotom forms. Sure Explosion is helpful against bulky waters but it isn't worth ruining an Agility Metagross sweep. With 196 speed Ev's you can out speed CS Rotom forms and with Zen Headbutt you easily 2hko them. You can also opt for Life Orb allowing you to hit harder on bulkier water types such as Suicune, Swampert, or Gyarados.

    Good Luck
  3. Blood Tears

    Blood Tears

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2009
    Messages:
    91
    Thank you for the rate, I tested Heatran and it works well :) I'll try the other options you've mentioned too.
  4. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

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    just a nitpick but I don't see why you need Lum berry. The most common status that will be directed at Metagross will be Burn (usually from Rotom A). You will always be switching out of Rotom anyway (unless you run Zen Headbutt) so I doubt that Meagross will get statused often. Also Flygon can take Thunderwaves and Heatran can take Toxic (and Will-o-Wisp). Also if need be Shaymin can absorb status as well. I just don't see the need for Lum. Personally, if you don't like LO then I feel that LEftovers could be a better option for survivability

    Have a Nice Day!
  5. Blood Tears

    Blood Tears

    Joined:
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    It just happened to be paralyzed by random Thunderbolts, and I just feel safer carrying it. Anyway, I think Leftovers deserve a try, thanks.
  6. Blood Tears

    Blood Tears

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2009
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    ugh, nothing more to say?
  7. Faladran

    Faladran
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    Saving the day.

    Notable Problems

    • Lead Machamp
    This team is seriously solid enough that you have just about every offensive threat covered to some extent. Machamp is only a problem because a Timid Heatran doesn't have enough power to ensure the OHKO on it, but that's easily fixable.

    • Stall
    Well-played stall teams can be troublesome for you to face. Mixed Flygon does do a good job of dodging entry hazard damage and hitting things hard, but you'll have to play carefully around more defensive opponents, as many of your team members can be walled by common stall Pokemon.

    Suggestions

    • Tweak natures
    On Heatran, use Mild over Timid. The extra power it gives you is enough to OHKO lead Machamp just about all of the time, and it doesn't subtract any of Explosion's damage. Jolly should be used on Metagross, as the EV spread is designed to be used with it to oustpeed common revenge killers.

    • Change Heatran's and Gengar's movesets slightly
    Earth Power is really not a useful move on LO Heatran, as you need to predict correctly to hit opposing Heatran that switch in. Explosion is generally the superior option, and gives you a way to take out Blissey so that your special attacks are harder to wall.

    Seconding Scimjara's suggestion here, but on Gengar, an alternative set using Black Sludge as the item along with a moveset of Substitute/Hypnosis/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast is a good change to try out, as Substitute gives you a safety net against Choice Scarf Tyranitar and other Pursuiters. Although Hypnosis will have lower accuracy, two uses of it (one from behind a Sub) still give you a high probability of hitting your opponent.

    Good luck with your team!
  8. Blood Tears

    Blood Tears

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2009
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    Thank you Faladran, I tried Mild Explosion Heatran and it really does its job perfectly. A second Explosion it's a big help against stall and definitely Gengar and Shaymin have an easier life without Blissey. Also, I'm planning to change Gengar's moveset as you suggested and maybe give Kingdra less attack in order to give it some more bulkyness. Thank you for the rate!
  9. Faladran

    Faladran
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    Sure, I think changing Kingdra' EVs is a good idea, too. If you do decide to do it, Atticus' original spread of 144 HP/160 Atk/40 SpD/164 Spe is probably the best one to use. It's designed to only be 3HKO'd by LO Starmie and +1 Offensive Suicune, allowing you to set up safely on both of them, and outspeeds Scarf Flygon after two Dragon Dances.
  10. Blood Tears

    Blood Tears

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    That's perfect. The team works very well :)

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