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Approved by Haunter
Idea from scorpdestroyer (PU subforum)
Sometimes you are looking in the viability rankings and think: Why is this pokemon even ranked? Why would I use pokemon X if pokemon Y exists? In this project we will discuss such forgotten or underrated pokemon in the OU tier. Every week I pick 3 pokemon from the viability rankings to discuss questions like:
Which set(s) make this pokemon viable in OU?
Which are underrated, but still effective sets from this pokemon in the metagame?
Which sets should people not use?
Would you recommend using this pokemon and in what kind of teams do you recommend them?
Experiment with the pokemon by showing cool sets, replays or sample teams to showcase why the pokemon should (or should not) be used. At the end of each week I will pick 1 or 2 sets (depends on the activity of the thread) for the archive. One of the sets which showcases the niche of the pokemon in OU and one set which shows an underrated (or maybe gimmicky) capability of the pokemon.
I think Zyagrde's main niche is SubCoil; with Dragon Tail and Coil, it can be a very effective phazer. It's DD sets are mostly outclassed by Dragonite. Dragon Dance is a bad set on Zygarde imo, pretty much every Dragon out there is better at ddancing. Since it's a good phazer, pair it with hazard stackers like Custap Skarmory or Ferrothorn.
Loving the idea of this project. I'm not entirely sure if Hydreigon counts however due to the hype it's been getting and the fact it got much more prominent in ORAS; but I'll try to elaborate anyway. Also SketchUp is there any formula we're to follow?
Hydreigon is a special/mixed wallbreaker, nice and simple. Give it a Life Orb, dual STAB, Superpower for Chansey and Flash Cannon for Fairies and you have a Pokémon that has very few switch-ins. While XY's introduction of fairies and power creep in the form of Megas considerably crippled Hydreigon to the point of it going from arguably one of the best Pokémon in OU all the way down to D-rank, ORAS breathes new life into BW's impossible end-boss. While it might be a little hard to talk about it as it is currently being suspected and hence may be banned, one Pokémon that appreciates Hydreigon's help is Mega Metagross. As Metagross can't run every single one of it's coverage moves at once, Hydreigon is very nice to fill in the holes, beating 'mon such as Hippowdon, Slowbro, hell, just any physically defensive Pokémon that Metagross can't handle. You might also like to try out Fire Blast for Ferro and Scizor. Other good options include Earth Power for electrics and Heatran; not to mention Taunt if you want to mix it up and go for some stallbreaking.
Of course at that point I'm just describing a core; but it's a nice bare bones explanation of what Hydreigon does. You can try it out with Gallade, Altaria, Charizard X, whatever -- the point of it is that like Sylveon, it wallbreaks Pokémon that your physical sweepers have trouble with.
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 263-309 (86.5 - 101.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 207-243 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 309-367 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 439-517 (111.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 291-346 (73.8 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 471-556 (147.6 - 174.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 270-320 (76.7 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Celebi: 307-361 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 322-380 (79.9 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Starmie: 408-484 (126.3 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 253-298 (70.8 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 242-286 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 400-473 (103.8 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 562-665 (163.8 - 193.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 510-603 (144.8 - 171.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And I'll finish the trio of trash terror with Thundurus-T. Most of his sets are outclassed by his Incarnate form, but setup offense is something that Therian can still do effectively. His best sets imo involve Agility, as he is more powerful than Therian but needs the speed. 3 attacks, SubAgility, or hell, even double boost (Nasty Plot+Agility, in this case) work wonders. He also is the only OU relevant mon with Volt Absorb, giving him some extra opportunities to switch in, even if rocks are up.
In addition, Scarf or Specs can work for more immediate speed or power, respectively; these sets should run Volt Switch. Thunder is also an option if running Thundy-T on a rain team.
Kurona
There isn't a specific formula you need to follow, but the questions in the OP are just guidelines to help the discussion.
For example: Hydreigon has access to many coverage moves such as Fire Blast and U-Turn, but which combination works best in OU? (Replays work here because you can show situations where Flash Cannon is better than Fire Blast for example)
Thundurus-Therian @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Flying / Hidden Power Ice
- Focus Blast
NP Thundurus-Therian is a terrifying sweeper and you can variate between the coverage moves because of the many possible moves. I will test out this set later on but I think there is a point of discussion here: HP Ice or HP Flying on Thundurus-Therian?
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 60 Atk / 200 SpA / 248 Spe
Naive/Mild Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Superpower/Fire Blast
- U-turn/Flash Canon
Life orb hydreigon is accaully amazing in this meta, though its speed is lacking at best it still hits like a truck and its mixed varriet can catch mons like tran off guard. Many teams dont prep for hydreigon making it a big treat to offense. It can break alot off dessive and offensive and deals with ferro w/ fire blast or tran w/ superpower respectively. Hydreigon has amazing senergy w/ metagross witch is somewhat unfortunate as he is most likely being banned :/ Scarf is another option but life orb just works alot beter and hits alot harder having amazing wall breaking capability.
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 56 Atk / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Superpower/Fire Blast
- U-turn/Iron Tail
Life orb hydreigon is accaully amazing in this meta, though its speed is lacking at best it still hits like a truck and its mixed varriet can catch mons like tran off guard. Many teams dont prep for hydreigon making it a big treat to offense. It can break alot off dessive and offensive and deals with ferro w/ fire blast or tran w/ superpower respectively. Hydreigon has amazing senergy w/ metagross witch is somewhat unfortunate as he is most likely being banned :/ Scarf is another option but life orb just works alot beter and hits alot harder having amazing wall breaking capability.
1.) Do the Attack EVs allow for any notable 2HKOs? iirc Chansey needs some prior damage + Stealth Rock to guarantee a 2HKO with Superpower so it's not worth dumping SpA EVs for it.
2.) Is Naive really necessary? You only speed creep Modest Charizard Y (which you fail to OHKO without a +SpA nature while dying to Focus Blast, and lose if it's Timid) and Mega Gardevoir (which you also lose to if it's Timid), while losing on out power. Also this looks like the UU spread.
1.) Do the Attack EVs allow for any notable 2HKOs? iirc Chansey needs some prior damage + Stealth Rock to guarantee a 2HKO with Superpower so it's not worth dumping SpA EVs for it.
2.) Is Naive really necessary? You only speed creep Modest Charizard Y (which you fail to OHKO without a +SpA nature while dying to Focus Blast, and lose if it's Timid) and Mega Gardevoir (which you also lose to if it's Timid), while losing on out power. Also this looks like the UU spread.
Yeah this was the uu spread ill run some calcs and make a ou spread now and your right about the speed but when running calcs it can 2hitko tran and chansey w/ superpower after no prior damage
Karxrida Those attack EVs are from the UU analysis, with 56 Atk you 2HKO Blissey after rocks.
With Naive over Mild/Rash you also outspeed Jolly Excadrill and everything else up to 98 speed with a benificial speed nature (Kyurem-B for example)
I wanted to try out different sets with Zygarde but the one that first came to mind was the Parashuffler set. I use Zygarde with Klefki as a teammate. Klefki does not only prankster thunder wave, but also lays spikes which is the base of dragon tailing. With the bulk of Zygarde it can set up subs on so many stuff like Tyranitar and get off a free attack. This strategy (dual paralysis + hazards) works well with slower wallbreaker like Banded Azumarill, but also with faster powerhouses like Mega Diancie. They do not only like the speed control they get from paralyzed targets, but also like their targets being worn down by Spikes and Stealth Rocks damage. 56 Spe to outspeed Bisharp.
Thundurus-Therian @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Flying / Hidden Power Ice
- Focus Blast
NP Thundurus-Therian is a terrifying sweeper and you can variate between the coverage moves because of the many possible moves. I will test out this set later on but I think there is a point of discussion here: HP Ice or HP Flying on Thundurus-Therian?
I don't think Thundurus-T is a better Nasty Plotter than Thundurus(-I). The speed tier is really important, especially with the 110s base speed.
I think there are 2 sets viable with Thundurus-T : the first with Agility, and the second one with Choice Scarf.
Thundurus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
- Focus Blast
Thundurus-T has some advantages against Raikou Scarf : it has Focus Blast, and a better special attack. In the other hand, Raikou doesn't have a weakness to SR.
Blissey is not relevant enough in OU to warrant that Attack investment, though outspeeding Jolly Excadrill can be useful to warrant a slash with Mild/Rash (Kyurem-B rarely runs +Speed last time I checked). Also, LO Modest/Mild/Rash Flash Cannon already 2HKOs Clefable so Iron Tail isn't necessary.
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nasty plot is used on double dance thundurus-t which is one of its main sets and the advantage of it over its incarnate counterpart is the stronger power output that thundurus-t provides to make nasty plot and its double dance set perfectly legitimate.
I don't think Thundurus-T is a better Nasty Plotter than Thundurus(-I). The speed tier is really important, especially with the 110s base speed.
I think there are 2 sets viable with Thundurus-T : the first with Agility, and the second one with Choice Scarf.
Thundurus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
- Focus Blast
Thundurus-T has some advantages against Raikou Scarf : it has Focus Blast, and a better special attack. In the other hand, Raikou doesn't have a weakness to SR.
Set sounds ok and I can see why the speed tier is that important because many threats like Keldeo and Mega Metagross fall under this speed tier.
On the scarf set, why not run Timid? With Modest you lose against other scarfers like Landorus-T, Excadrill, Victini and Kyurem-Black which can all OHKO Thundurus-Therian, so outspeeding them is really necessary in my opinion.
Nasty plot is used on double dance thundurus-t which is one of its main sets and the advantage of it over its incarnate counterpart is the stronger power output that thundurus-t provides to make nasty plot and its double dance set perfectly legitimate.
Set sounds ok and I can see why the speed tier is that important because many threats like Keldeo and Mega Metagross fall under this speed tier.
On the scarf set, why not run Timid? With Modest you lose against other scarfers like Landorus-T, Excadrill, Victini and Kyurem-Black which can all OHKO Thundurus-Therian, so outspeeding them is really necessary in my opinion.
Draco Meteor is to destroy Lati@s, Garchomp and other dragons (such as +1 D-Nite) that the scarf lets you outspeed, you can use d-pulse to avoid the S.Atk drop, but the immediate power is the main reason to use it (I believe pulse fails to OHKO Latias). Dark Pulse is secondary STAB, and allows you to revenge MMeta (if it stays), Gengar and is Hydreigon's spammable STAB. Flash Cannon is a must on ScarfDreigon, to hit M.Diancie, M.Voir and M.Alt, as well as Terrakion and random Weavile. U-Turn allows for scouting, while Fire Blast destroys Ferrothorn, Skarmory and other bulky steels not named Heatran, but steels such as Rachi and Meta are beat by dark pulse.
I've been calcing a bit for the Hydreigon spread and when running a + SpA nature (Mild/Rash) which I don't recommend, but can fit on certain teambuilds, the best EV spread is 92 Atk / 204 SpA / 212 Spe in my opinion. With 92 Atk you 2HKO 0 HP / 252+ Def Chansey after Stealth Rock damage, 204 SpA is enough to 2HKO Clefable with Flash Cannon with leftovers recovery and with 212 Spe you can still outspeed Jolly/Timid Mega Altaria and do up to 75% with Flash Cannon.
Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
This is actually a pretty gimmick set... first before presenting i just want to introduce you WHY using a motherfuck*ng salac berry because this set looks like all the shitty gimmicks of verlisify (yeah his sets are just incredibly bad).
~Introduction~
So... First of all i don't like when a pokemon which i like is like...outclassed by an otherone...like Flygon outclassed by Garchomp or in this case Thundurus-T outclassed by Thundurus because why the fuck not...so... i was like "hey let's play the old agility modest LO attacker"
Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 156 Def / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
- Agility
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast
The Evs in speed are the evs needed to have 1 point higher in speed than the speed of a max speed scarf latios/gengar after one agility.
But this set is way too ez to block... SpeDefSylveon,MegaVenusaur,Chansey...
So hey let's play the Nasty PLot!
Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast
But this set is even more ez to revenge kill than the agility is to block... lati@s/gengar/terrakium/keldeo/menectric/thundurus/etcetera
The Evs in speed are the evs needed to have 1 point higher in speed than the speed of a max speed scarf latios/gengar after one agility.
But to be honest... i HATE every double dance set... like "hey when you have done 1 rock polish and 1 sword dance with your Landorus/Groudon it's just like 2 dragon dance m8!" but it waste 1 move... a recover one or an offensive one for coverage... and sometime with Landorus/Groudon it's way better to have +1 in speed and attack than +2 in attack... that's why i hate double dance and i know that i'm not alone and lots of people do not like this concept too...
So the perfect solution was Nasty Plot + Something that raise the speed and so here comes my set!
is there mainly for have more chance to activate the Salac Berry and Secondarily for be protected of eventual Revenge Killer and status effects.It's a nice choic eon Thundurus Especially because he haves 5 resistances (Bug/Fight/Flying/Grass/Steel) and 2 immunity (Ground/Electric[exept for MoldBreaker MegaAmpharos and TreaVolt Kyurem-B]).He also make switch most of the time pokemons like Charizard-Y,Landorus-I,Defensive Landorus-T, Etcetera...Also Locked Landorus-T(EQ)/Magnezone(ThunderBolt/VoltSwitch),Rotom(same)/Raikou(same) Parteners For this startegy:
Skarmory is a simple and very nice start for a defensive core which can help Thundurus-T to have good occasion to set up him self Especially with the ShedShell Skarmory for bluff ChoiceMagnezone,The fact that the only move that is able to hurt hard Thundurus is FlashCannon (Yes FlashCannon will hurt harder than HPFire) and Using FlashCannon on skarmory is stupid make this combo very nice.Also skarmory will pull lots of electic moves.
Napoleon (Empoleon) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Stealth Rock
- Defog
- Roost Roar
Empoleon is also a nice option because he complete perfectly Thundurus-T
Just the fact that Thundurus-T is immune to the 2 main weaknesses of Empoleon makes it a good partener.
Also NaEmpoleon is able to defog the rocks which Thundurus-T fears.
Focus Blast is also good for coverage and some pokemon like Heatran and TTar but most of the time after one NastyPlot Thundurus-T don't need this extra coverage.
NastyPLot:
Gives Thundurus a Great offensive power and make him able to crush some SpeDef walls.
DamageCalculator said:
Sylveon:
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Sylveon: 246-291 (62.4 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 190-225 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Heatran:
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 231-273 (60 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
TTar:
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 211-249 (52.3 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zapdos:
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 246-289 (64 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Goes perfectly With thunderbot for the Bolt/Beam Combo.hey
~Replay~
So for the moment i have only 1 replay because it's the suspect test and i don't want to loose all my COIL because it's important for the vote.I Have accidently start a match with the team i had made around Thundurus-T i was stressed to loose this match but Thundruus-T have just destroyed him Enjoy! http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-211998447
PS: i hope i haven't do any fault because i'm only learning English so... i hope you have understood me.
Spiny-Z I talked about the SubSalac set with you yesterday. The reason why SubSalac works (and why I think it is a cool set) over Double Dance is that you are not as easily forced out by either an fast offensive mon or a bulky mon. When using double dance you can either attack on the switch but the low BP of HP Ice gives you a high risk / low reward in most cases. When using either Nasty Plot or Agility on the switch, you are easily forced out by walls like Sylveon if you clicked Agility or by offensive mons like Latios when using Nasty Plot. What substitute basically does over doubel dance is that you can sub on the switch and either set up NP against walls (except Sylveon because hyper voice bypasses substitute) or keep subbing against offensive mons to get the speed boost. I would advise to run 4 HP EVs instead of 0 HP EVs because it gives you a HP number that can be divided by 4, so after 3 substitutes your berry will activate and you are at 25% of your health, otherwise you would need 4 substitutes and it will leave you with only 1 HP left behind the sub. This also works with Stealth Rocks damage because after rocks damage + 2 subs you are already on salac berry level, where you need 3 subs + rocks with 0 HP EVs.
Yeah, Salac isn't a bad idea considering Stealth Rock actually does this set a favor by requiring less set up time, and you don't have to worry about clearing hazards as much. Two switches into SR plus a sub will get you in that range and if you never lose sub until that point your opponent may never know you have that set until too late.
I wouldnt call Ddance zygarde a bad set for it because it has some useful perks that let it find some setup opportunities. First, it is one of the few (if not the only) dragon dancer that isnt weak to rocks and having some pretty fantastic bulk let it take some damage pretty well and retaliate. Considering how prevalent this hazard is, it is a good perk. Of course it suffers from outrage not being so spammable anymore and with the tier taking a turn to bulky offense and balanced it wont deal too much damage even at +1 but it shines against offense with this set and can pack some good stuff.
Sub coil is pretty fantastic right now though, and of course Zygarde main niche. Seeing that hazard stacking is making a return zygarde can take advantage of that phazing everything not called fairies (togekiss is like a hard counter to this set, ugh) and the opponents will be taking hazard damage everytime
Zygarde has very good bulk which helps with setting up DDs very easy, but other niches it has over other DDers are very small. Mega Altaria is, after mega evolving, also not weak versus rocks, has a bit less bulk but a better typing, more power because of pixilate and a much more spammable STAB move. The only reason I would use Zygarde over Mega Altaria as dragon dancers is that mega altaria does not take up the mega slot, but even then I prefer Gyarados over Zygarde as non-mega DD user because of much more spammable STABs and a better typing.
While I did try out Parashuffler, I didn't take a look at the Coil set yet, so that set might be worth a try (or if someone has some nice replays I'd appreciate them) +1 Earthquake is nice to get rid of fairies because they stop dragon tail phazing (50% vs Azumarill, OHKO vs Mega Diancie, 45% vs Clefable and 90% vs Mega Gardevoir) The fact Hyper Voice bypasses subs is annoying because Mega Altaria, Mega Gardevoir and Sylveon all use Hyper Voice (Mega Altaria not always but it is still a common move) so a fairy killer would be a good teammate for SubCoil sets.
This week our Buried Treasure Pokemon are Staraptor, Mega Glalie and Dragalge.
What are their best sets and are other sets worth a mention? Try to find the best sets for these pokemon using the following questions:
What is the best set for Staraptor in this metagame?
Does Staraptor have any other good sets than choice locked sets (LO Agility? Feather Dance?)
Does Mega Glalie prefer Double-Edge, Return or Body Slam? Does it prefer an Adamant or a Jolly nature?
Are moves like Freeze-Dry and Spikes viable on Mega Glalie?
Is Dragalge best of running a Choice Specs set or does it need Toxic Spikes?
Are Scald and Dragon Pulse viable on the Choice Specs set, or does it really need the coverage?
