1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. Click here to ensure that you never miss a new SmogonU video upload!

Burn All (Dream World)

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by firecape, Dec 18, 2010.

  1. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 17, 2010

    I've been playing 5th generation Ubers from the start, when the only generation 5 server was a private one on PO, and it had about 10 people on at a time. Since then I have made quite a few teams, some of which performed quite well, but not none were worth RMTing really. I had just finished a team that used multiple trappers in an attempt to pull of a Steel Arceus sweep, and then it hit me. Why not just use Extremekiller? I promptly made this team, and along its "journey" it has conquered a few well known players, although I won't name them :P. Yeah blah blah blah here's the team:

    Team at a glance


    Groudon @ Leftovers/Shed Shell *** Trickroom
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 56 SDef / 24 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Dragon Tail
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge / Fire Punch​

    Groudon is pretty much a necessity for this team. It sets up the sun, checks tons of physical attackers, can phaze a lot of threats, and last but not least it sets up Stealth Rock. The Ground titan really holds this team together against other things like Kingdra and other rain-dependant sweepers, and it can check things like DD Rayquaza. It checks many forms of Arceus too (whether it be a suicide phaze or straight up walling). It also provides quite a useful immunity to Electric-type attacks, like Thunder Wave. Dragon Tail also allows me to phaze out Mew that use Taunt > Substitute, given I haven't seen any yet this generation... Groudon is also very important because it can tank physical Fighting attacks if needed, and it can take out Terakion - one of ExtremeKillers chief counters.​

    Earthquake and Stone Edge provide nice coverage and are quite obvious. Earthquake takes out Steels (although I really have no trouble with them, lol...) and is a good STAB, while Stone Edge hits most of the stuff that resist it, and gives me a nice way to scare away Ho-Oh. Dragon Tail, as stated before, provides a nice phazing move and allows me to rack up entry hazard damage, while being able to hit through Taunt. It also can put some pretty good dents in a lot of Pokemon. Stealth Rock is useful as always, and needs very little explanation. I will sometimes sacrifice Groudon if I don't really need it (judging by team preview) just to get Stealth Rock up. The current spread Speed creeps a bit but whatever lol... I use 56 Special Defense EVs because I'm pretty sure it allows me to survive 2 Spacial Rends. The rest are thrown into HP and Def with an Impish nature for a lot more physical bulk. Groudon sometimes leads because with Deo-S no longer popular its no longer at that big of a loss... With team preview I can choose to lead with whatever I want. Its usually either this to get sun and Stealth Rocks up right away, or Heatran if they are leading with the ever popular Forretress. When / if Shed Shell becomes popular, Fire Punch is slid over Stone Edge to eliminate Nattorei >:). I'll miss the extra Ho-Oh coverage but eh...​

    Groudon is named after Trickroom because Groudon is an amazing wall and trickroom uses stall quite a bit (;_;).

    With the influx of Shandera I have taken to running Shed Shell which goes great with Heatran. This really helps as Shandera + any whether inducer meant that whether was going to stay. It really helps against Tyranitar teams too.​

    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers *** Jibaku
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Lava Plume
    - Toxic
    - Roar
    - Taunt​

    I invented this Heatran set for generation 5 Jibaku's Heatran from generation 4 works wonderful in this generation too (ps: he blackmailed me to give him credit ;_;). Yeah, but Heatran is amazing. I originally used Dialga over this (in conjunction with Forretress > Nattorei) but Heatran patches up so many weak spots in this team. Dark Arceus, Ghost Arceus, Shandera, Dialga (sorta), Latios and Latias - the list goes on. It really fit like a puzzle peice and I have never regreted switching. He checks so many things it isn't even funny, and if you don't have a Kyogre or Fighting- or Ground-type attacks good luck with this guy. It takes ridiculously low damage (considering its weak to Water) from even stuff like Palkia in the sun. Heatran is also a great check to many Arceus sets Heatran is also one of my best answers to the near-unbreakable 5th gen dream world stall (created by trickroom).​

    I chose Lava Plume > Flamethrower because Groudon can be quite annoying at times, and a burned Groudon really eliminates it as a threat to my main sweeper. Lava Plume is also quite powerful even without investment in the sun, and even more so if I manage to get a Flash Fire boost.... I just have to be careful for it burning stuff that I need to Toxic. As I said previously, Heatran is my main stallbreaker. Taunt and Toxic really hurts, and Roar in conjunction with my hazards and the fact that few Pokemon can do sizable damage to Heatran can be a real pain for many teams. While severly hurt by the Taunt nerf, Heatran can still break stall quite effectively. I also sometimes use Toxic in conjunction with Shandera to elliminate a Pokemon that lacks phazing; Shandera will usually die in the process but it can be worth it to eliminate Chansey (usually the main target of this). I don't run any Speed like Jibaku normally does because the extra bulk makes this thing a bitch to take down, but if Giratina-A becomes more popular I'll probably start to run 128 Speed to outspeed and Taunt it before it can Rest. Heatran may seem to overlap a bit with Shandera, but their purposes are extremely different. Heatran breaks up stall and walls tons of stuff while phazing, and what Shandera does is described in its section...​

    Heatran is named after Jibaku because he created it and he is so annoying, just like Heatran !​

    Nattorei (M) @ Leftovers *** Wild Eep
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Spikes
    - Protect
    - Leech Seed
    - Power Whip​

    Nattorei is my Spiker, and a great one at that. It can set up on so much stuff, and while it likes rain support a lot more than sunlight, it can still function fine. Nattorei's great bulk and typing allow it to switch in on a lot of stuff and proceed to start setting up Spikes. It can get trapped by the rising-in-popularity-Shandera, but I haven't seen enough to warrant a switch to Shed Shell yet. Nattorei also brings a second Water-type resistance to this team with 3 Water weaknesses. Although it can't take 2 Specs Water Spouts, I usually manage fine. This is also the reason I carry Power Whip (which coincidently helps with my small Groudon weakness, although this isn't too bad as tons of stuff can lure it out and weaken it, which is all my main sweeper needs.) Although I do wish I had Gyro Ball sometimes, like against Rayquaza, I really need Power Whip so I can do some damage to Kyogre. I really don't have *that* big of a problem with it though, as Latias can set up on it and if I sacrifice Groudon to it mid- to late-game I can get a relatively free Swords Dance with Arceus. RP Groudon can give me a little trouble though, and Nattorei can take anything it has (bar Fire Punch >___>) and Whip it with Power! After that its usually to weak to do much and I can eliminate Life Orb variants easily with switching, and if not, Arceus can always take a hit. Nattorei is also my second Fighting weak, which may seem bad, but it actually lures them out quite efficiently for Shandera or Latias to feast upon.

    Spikes is quite an obvious addition to the moveset. I like Leech Seed and Protect because it allows Nattorei to provide not only team support, but heal itself quite efficiently. Against things like Dark Arceus that I kill that easily, I send out Nattorei to Leech Seed it then switch to Heatran and Taunt. Heatran will usually end up with a net gain of HP at the end of each turn if I manage to do this before they get a significant amount of boosts. Nattorei's spread may look haphazard, but it lets me almost always take 2 Specs Surfs from Kyogre after a switch into Stealth Rock with the help of Leftovers (50.9% damage). I could use less Special Defense and rely on Protect, but I like to be able to Power Whip without giving a potential switch in a free pass because I have to Protect to survive :(. I could also go with a +SpD nature, but with this spread Nattorei has almost equal Defense and Special Defense, allowing it to take physical and special hits more effectively.

    Nattorei is named after Wild Eep because METAL NETTLE METAL NETTLE
    Shandera (M) @ Choice Scarf *** Fireburn
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 76 HP / 252 SAtk / 180 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Overheat
    - Flamethrower
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Rock]​

    This. Thing. Is. A. Beast. <----. I really can't describe how much this thing owns. Dare not incur Shandera's wrath or you shall be crit into a pit of oblivion (Great Sage.......). Jokes aside, this thing is amazing. It takes out so many things, such as Mewtwo, Darkrai, ExtremeKiller, Forretress, Nattorei; the list goes on. It can't really switch directly into some of these, but with pivots and the like I usually get it in on a Fighting move. That's where the "blessing" of quite a few Fighting weaknesses comes in :). Shandera really holds this team together against a few of the aforemention Pokemon and many more besides. Overheat in the Sun with that SpA and STAB is a force to behold. Mewtwo, even after a Calm Mind, dies after some prior damage. Darkrai stands no chance, nor does Steel Arceus, and ExtremeKiller is obliterated after some prior damage as well. Forretress and Nattorei, as well as nearly every Pokemon that sets up Spikes, is crisped by Shandera. This things main use, however, is eliminating ExtremeKiller's checks and counters. The two are amazing counters, I can't really stress that enough. Pretty much all Steels, save for Heatran, and Fighting-types fall to Shandera. This thing can also double as a spinblocker, as Forretress really stands no chance. I won't switch this in on a full health Forretress, as they will get 3 layers if I do so, so I wait until Sturdy is "broken," usually by hazards, and then go in for the kill. Tentacruel is the only spinner that can give me "trouble," but it can only 3HKO me in the sun unless it invest a lot into SpA, and even then Shadow Ball is a near 3HKO-4HKO, meaning it will most likely be forced out from my switch in and die later on to hazards. Nattorei turns into pretty much 1 layer of hazards and then they're dead for the opponent as well. Shandera can also sacrifice itself and nearly kill Groudon if needed - all the better for Arceus. As stated before, Heatran's Toxic in conjunction with Shandera's Shadow Tag can be used to sacrifice Shandera in order to nearly take down Chansey (who will most likely die later from hazards or my switch in).​

    Overheat is a fairly obvious choice to inflict tons of damage and incinerate most things in its path. Flamethrower is the more consistent alternative if I don't want my SpA lowered or can't afford a miss. Shadow Ball is weaker than Overheat in the sun so it isn't used that much, but its quite useful as an alternative STAB. With it, Lugia will usually take a big chunk in its efforts to phaze Shandera out, unless it has Earthquake -_-. I originally used HP Ice for SD Rayquaza, but HP Rock does quite a bit, usually ending Rayquaza's life in conjunction with SR and a few rounds of LO damage. If all else fails it will definitely be in range for Arceus's ExtremeSpeed after HP Rock. HP Rock is used to give me an extra "layer" of protection against Ho-Oh. It may seem dumb to invest in HP with something so frail, but this spread gives me enough Speed to outpace anything sitting 1 point above Timid Mewtwo. Max Special Attack for obvious reasons, and the rest are just thrown into HP. Shandera can actually take some hits, like unboosted ExtremeKillers Shadow Claw and Shadow Sneak from Giratina-O if Shandera has taken little prior damage.​

    Shandera is named after Fireburn because they are both Fire-types! I don't know though I still think Shandera is cooler than him...
    Latias (F) @ Soul Dew *** Great Sage
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 52 HP / 204 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Psycho Shock
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Recover​

    Soul Dew not being released limits Latias's usefulness to Dream World, but its still extremely good there! Latias is quite a useful addition to this team with its good combination of bulk, speed, and power. Latias also takes special Fighting attacks that would be too risky to send Shandera in, and more importantly, Kyogre. Latias's bulk and Soul Dew stop Kyogre from almost crushing my team flat. She also stops Reshiram from demolishing my team, a job that almost falls on her alone unfortunately. I chose Calm Mind on a seemingly unbulky set because it is a great tool against stall and offense a like. Latias's new move, Psycho Shock, allows it to plow through would-be special walls like Chansey and Blissey with a Calm Mind or 2. Dragon Pulse provides the primary STAB, however, and is quite powerful as well. Recover is good for when I force stuff like Kyogre and Reshiram out, keeping Latias healthy and able to switch in again. Those two don't really like hazards, so I can usually just do that and get them weakened to a point where they can't switch in on much safely. ​

    The spread may seem odd on a seemly defensive Latias, but I need near max Speed to outspeed Terakion if Groudon is too injured to wall it. After that its so close to max Speed its just not worth those HP EVs compared to the opportunity to outspeed opposing Latios and Latias. The SpA EVs are sort of hap-hazardly placed and allow me to OHKO Palkia if I don't have rocks down, but I like the power a lot. I sometimes run an alternative spread of 160 HP / 96 SpA / 252 Spe as that benchmark allows me to OHKO Palkia with Stealth Rock, but I really like all the power 204 affords... I know I don't really have a problem with Palkia I just use those as benchmarks lol. It may seem odd that I rely on Latias without Thunder to kill Kyogre, but Psycho Shock more often then not can 2HKO just like Thunder. ​

    Latias is named after Great Sage 'cause you don't mess with Great Sage 9.9 (ok I admit it i really couldn't think of someone to name this after).​

    Arceus @ Silk Scarf *** locopoke
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 132 Atk / 124 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Shadow Claw
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Earthquake ​

    The <insert star of the show cliche here>. Its crude and unoriginal, but with Shandera support, and the support of the rest of my team, man does it hit hard. I rarely send this out until lategame when everything is sufficiently weakened and my hazards have done their toll. Arceus doesn't really "check" anything, but aside from cleaning up amazingly it can revenge a few things with ExtremeSpeed, and is quite useful as my only user of priority. ​

    Arceus can set up a Swords Dance against so many things it's not even funny. If Kyogre is alive and Latias and Nattorei are down I will usually sacrifice Groudon to Kyogre and bring this thing in for free. It gets a 100% free Swords Dance if I do this, as Surf and Water Spout stand no chance of OHKOing in the sun, while Ice Beam can't freeze under the sun. They can't be using Thunder otherwise they couldn't have killed Groudon. All of this of course assumes no crits, although I doubt even those can kill it under the sun with all the bulk I'm running. So, yeah, my core eliminates and/or weakens Groudon, Lugia, Skarmory, Nattorei, etc and then this thing comes in on like 80% of the tier and gets a free Swords Dance. By this time in the game its usually too late for anything to be done. I opt for 3 coverage moves rather than Recover since I rarely use this until the point where I can clean everything up, and the coverage helps. ExtremeSpeed is obvious for a priority STAB off 120 Base Attack. Shadow Claw covers Ghosts, while Earthquake takes care of Steels and things like Zekrom if no hazards are present. I choose Silk Scarf because it affords a considerable ammount more power while not sacrificing any health. For the EV spread, I threw 252 EVs into HP to afford a lot of bulk. Then I put 124 EVs into Speed to assure I outspeed all base 90 Speed Pokemon, and the rest of the EVs are thrown into Attack with an Adamant nature for more power. ​

    Arceus is named after locopoke because its a fucking troll and should be banned, but damn is it good. ​

    "After the pre-battle tintinnabulation is completed, please stare in pure, unadulterated horror and ominous presentiment at what is unequivocally the best and most versatile Pokemon in the game. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become an evanescent wisp."

    One last look

    Here's a blank version if anyone wishes to steal it (lol) I put it in this post because it would have gone over 100 images in the second one....

    blank threatlist (open)

    [​IMG] Darkrai
    [​IMG] Deoxys-A
    [​IMG] Dialga
    [​IMG] Giratina
    [​IMG] Giratina-O
    [​IMG] Groudon
    [​IMG] Ho-Oh
    [​IMG] Kyogre
    [​IMG] Lugia
    [​IMG] Mewtwo
    [​IMG] Palkia
    [​IMG] Rayquaza
    [​IMG] Reshiram
    [​IMG] Shaymin-S
    [​IMG] Zekrom

    [​IMG] Blaziken
    [​IMG] Blissey
    [​IMG] Chansey
    [​IMG] Deoxys
    [​IMG] Deoxys-D
    [​IMG] Deoxys-S
    [​IMG] Ditto
    [​IMG] Doryuuzu
    [​IMG] Espeon
    [​IMG] Erufuun
    [​IMG] Forretress
    [​IMG] Garchomp
    [​IMG] Gengar
    [​IMG] Genosect
    [​IMG] Heatran
    [​IMG] Heracross
    [​IMG] Jirachi
    [​IMG] Kingdra
    [​IMG] Kyurem
    [​IMG] Latias
    [​IMG] Latios
    [​IMG] Lucario
    [​IMG] Ludicolo
    [​IMG] Manaphy
    [​IMG] Mew
    [​IMG] Metagross
    [​IMG] Nattorei
    [​IMG] Octillery
    [​IMG] Sazandora
    [​IMG] Scizor
    [​IMG] Shandera
    [​IMG] Shedinja
    [​IMG] Skarmory
    [​IMG] Tentcruel
    [​IMG] Terrakion
    [​IMG] Tyranitar
    [​IMG] Ulgamoth
    [​IMG] Wobbuffett

    Rate away!
  2. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 17, 2010

    Note: I tried to include Arceus as little as possible because I don't normally check stuff with it, and I save it for late-game.

    If you want a copy pasteable blank version look at the end of the above post.

    [​IMG]Arceus - I don't feel like typing out an explanation for every single type, but I'll give a general overview and the "main" types.

    Shandera's Overheat can crisp most types if they haven't gotten any Calm Minds. Latias beats a good number of them in a Calm Mind war thanks to Psycho Shock meaning she no longer needs a crit to kill them. With Steel Arceus, Shandera, Groudon, and Heatran give Calm Mind a run for its money, while Shandera and Groudon can destroy the rare Swords Dance... Ghost Arceus is pretty much walled by Heatran, and slowly killed by Toxic. Groudon can phaze it out with a suicide Dragon Tail if needed, and Shandera can take a big chunk with Overheat and/or Shadow Ball. My Arceus also is immune to its STAB and it needs around +2-+3 to 2HKO me with Flamethrower. Extremekiller is checked by Nattorei and Groudon, while Shandera can kill it outright if the sun is up and its taken some prior damage.

    [​IMG] Darkrai - Can be sort of annoying with my 3 Fighting weaks... I usually sacrifice either Groudon or Nattorei to sleep, depending on the situation of the same, and then sacrifice something else / go to Shandera if I'm sure it will Nasty Plot. If Overheat misses I'm in some trouble though... I usually have to hope for a Focus Blast miss in that senario.
    [​IMG] Deoxys-A - It can cause major damage, but I can normally play around it. The general way I handle it is go to Nattorei to have it hurt itself and break the usual sash, Shandera for the pivot, then Arceus for the kill. Shandera can't outspeed this, but sometimes it cant touch Shandera. I have to be careful and go to Arceus to check for Shadow Ball though. If it lacks this Shandera is a safe bet.
    [​IMG] Dialga - I used to have problems but with Heatran I very rarely have trouble. Unless it carries the odd Aura Sphere (in which case its most likely choiced and Shandera bait), or Earth Power, Heatran takes it. Both of those moves are rare though. Groudon handles Bulk Up with Earthquake or phazes it away to deal with later. It won't like Lava Plumes in the sun either, and Heatran can always Roar it away. Shandera does quite a bit of damage with Overheat too, and Nattorei can set up Spikes sometimes.
    [​IMG] Giratina - Very rare these days, but Heatran does fine as it can't really touch it. If they become more popular I'll run more Speed on Heatran to Taunt it before it can touch me. Latias does major damage and so does Shandera, once this thing is at around 30% (or 50% if I have Stealth Rock and Spikes -- which is quite common) it no longer theatens Arceus unless it Rests.
    [​IMG] Giratina-O - Heatran walls it unless it has Earthquake. Shandera can take a Shadow Sneak in a pinch and do a ton of damage with Shadow Ball. Latias OHKOs with Dragon Pulse. It really can't do too much to my team...
    [​IMG] Groudon - this is "kinda" a problem. Shandera does <70% with Overheat, which is really all Arceus needs done to it to sweep past it. Latias can come in on Earthquake, but Dragon Pulse won't OHKO and Dragon Tail hurts. Nattorei can set up on those that lack Fire Punch. Swords Dance isn't a problem unless its coupled with Paralysis support. Rock Polish can be problematic, but Groudon can phaze it out and Nattorei can Power Whip it (once again, if it lacks Power Whip). Arceus can also take a hit if needed. I can sometimes catch it with a burn on the switch in to Heatran which makes it useless pretty much.
    [​IMG] Ho-Oh - This can be annoying as always... I try to get Stealth Rock down ASAP. My team has enough checks that I'm not struggling, but its still mean :(. Groudon can phaze those without a sub and smash it with Stone Edge. Latias's Psycho Shock hits its weaker Defense stat and does around 50% unboosted. Shandera's HP Rock usually does around 70% in a bind, and Heatran can wall and phaze those without Earthquake. It doesn't like to take ExtremeSpeeds much either.
    [​IMG] Kyogre - This can be a problem as 1/2 of my team is weak to Water. However, it can't really get passed Latias (who usually 2HKOs with Psycho Shock), and Nattorei isn't 2HKO by anythng but a high-powered Specs Water Spout. Nattorei's Power Whip hurts this too. If I can get Groudon in its not as threatening anymore. Sometimes I just sac Groudon to get a free set up with Arceus.
    [​IMG] Lugia - ugh this thing walls my main sweeper and is a bitch to take down. If it lacks Earthquake Heatran handles it no problem, but if it has Earthquake its quite annoying. Nattorei can Leech Seed it and Spike, but it can't hurt it really and will get phazed pretty fast. Shandera does like 50% to super bulky versions with Shadow Ball, but multiscale :(.
    [​IMG] Mewtwo - If it lacks Aura Sphere, Heatran handles it fine. This is usually not the case though. Latias can tank an Ice Beam and do some damage, but I usually try to get Shandera in on a Fighting attack and incinerate it from there. Arceus isn't killed by unboosted Aura Sphere and can do get in a Shadow Claw + ExtremeSpeed.
    [​IMG] Palkia - Not really a problem. Latias can take anything but Outrage if its healthy and OHKO all but Haban or bulky (o_O) with Dragon Pulse. Nattorei can wall the common Scarf version save for Fire Blast. Heatran can wall it in the sun with ease, and Groudon can take any hit. Arceus can set up on it bar a crit.
    [​IMG] Rayquaza - Mix is usually walled by Heatran, unless they are carrying Brick Break (Earthquake is really rare on them, if ever seen...). Latias can revenge a Mixed one with ease. Groudon can handle DD and SD versions but it will take a hefty chunk of damage (the latter must lack OUtrage or Groudon will be in a world of hurt). Shandera can revenge non-DD versions that have taken some prior damage, and Arceus can ExtremeSpeed them if they are damaged a bit.
    [​IMG] Reshiram - This is quite threatening. Heatran can't take a specs Blue Fire, but it can take a hit and Roar away anything else as long as it switches in on a death... Nattorei can take Dragon attacks to a degree but isn't a good switch in for obvious reasons. Latias is my best hope, as it can switch in on Fire attacks. It has to watch out for Dragon attacks though obviously. Shandera can hit it with HP Rock if its significantly weakened, but it takes major damage from most of Reshiram's attacks. Arceus can outspeed all but Scarf and do a lot of damage with Earthquake, but its takes a ton and is usually KOed by Specs Blue Fire in the sun. Good thing this thing takes 37% per switch in with SR + Spikes. I usually just try to force it out with Latias, and Recover as it switches.
    [​IMG] Shaymin-S - non Scarf variants that lack don't have a Substitute up are destroyed by Shandera. Heatran can take any variant lacking/not locked into Earth Power. Nattorei takes Seed Flares with ease but doesn't like Air Slash too much. Latias can take anything it has, but hates flinches.... Arceus can ExtremeSpeed it to avoid hax and isn't OHKOed by anything it has.
    [​IMG] Zekrom - Nattorei walls it unless its some weird mix with Focus Blast (Jibaku 9.9), Heatran can take anything it has once or twice and phaze it, Latias can switch in on Electric attacks and smash it with Dragon Pulse, but it has to be careful for Outrage and Dragon Claw. Groudon is 2HKOed by Band Outrage, but it can handle it well otherwise.

    [​IMG] Blaziken - Haven't seen much but I enjoy luring High Jump Kick with Heatran, then watching it crash when I send in Shandera. Latias also resists its STABs, and Arceus can ExtremeSpeed it if its too fast. Groudon can take a hit or two too.
    [​IMG] Blissey - Heatran can Taunt, Toxic, or Roar it, or any combination of the three lol. Nattorei gets an easy set up on it with Leech Seed and Iron Barbs dealing a steady rate of damage. Latias can 2HKO it with Psycho Break after some prior damage or a Calm Mind, but it doesn't really like Thunder Wave or Toxic. The previously mentioned Heatran + Shandera combo works (Heatran Toxics, Shandera traps). This fails if they have Heal Bell/Aromatheray though. Arceus can plow through it after set up.
    [​IMG] Chansey - Same as Blissey, just more bulky. It can take a +2 ExtremeSpeed, but eh... its still not going to be happy after it.
    [​IMG] Cloyster - It doesn't really have many opportunities to set up, but it could be problematic if it somehow did. Arceus can ExtremeSpeed it and do major damage after its Shell Smashed. Heatran probably isn't OHKOed in the sun either. Entry hazards and Life Orb damage add up quickly too.
    [​IMG] Deoxys - Haven't seen one but same as Deoxys-A.
    [​IMG] Deoxys-D - Haven't seen any either, but it can be annoying with Magic Coat I forsee... Heatran utterly walls it and prevents it from doing anything with Taunt. Shandera traps and kills it. Nattorei can set up on it but I wouldn't do that since it will probably have Spikes and/or Taunt too.
    [​IMG] Deoxys-S - Drastic drop in popularity with Forretress's rise, but it is sorta guarenteed 2 layers against me >___>. Pretty much every single one of my Pokemon can 2HKO it though.
    [​IMG] Ditto - ARGH! Ditto can be annoying if it switches into Arceus after a boost, but if its Scarfed I really have no trouble at all. Each one of my team members is pretty much countered by another.
    [​IMG] Doryuuzu - Groudon negates Sandstorm and can wall and kill it. Shandera kills it if Groudon somehow dies but sandstorm isn't up. It can't OHKO Arceus even after a Swords Dance, and it can't OHKO Latias with X-Scissor or a Rock Slide flinch.
    [​IMG]Dugtrio - I haven't faced any but I can see it being annoying with revenging Heatran. If its Scarf it can revenge Shandera I guess but then its walled by like 2/3 of my team...
    [​IMG] Espeon - This is just a nuisance not really a threat. SInce I have no spinner, it can reflect my hazards, but its quite easily handled by Latias/Shandera/Arceus/Heatran.
    [​IMG] Erufuun - Nattorei walls it but can't do much back. Priority Leech Seed is a bitch :(... As a plus though, it can't really set up on any of my Pokemon but Groudon, because it wouldn't normally try on Nattorei. I'm pretty sure Groudon can OHKO its sub with Stone Edge but they will miss as always ;_;.
    [​IMG] Forretress - The newest fad in the leadspot. Heatran utterly shuts it down if I lead with it. Shandera easily traps and kill those whose Sturdy has been "broken." I have 3 immunities to Toxic Spikes but only 1 immunity to Spikes so it can hurt in the long run if I let it set up, but that never really happens. I easily handle this... until they start holding Shed Shell that is.... Also, the rarely used Volt Change can let it escape from Shandera if they predict correctly.
    [​IMG] Garchomp - Groudon walls most variants and can phaze it with Dragon Tail. Nattorei takes Outrages easily and damages it with Iron Barbs in the process. Heatran can take Outrages OK but it needs to watch out for Earthquake. Latias can switch into Earthquake but isn't usually the best choice otherwise because they almost always have either Scarf or Haban.
    [​IMG] Gengar - I've actually noticed Gengar can be a little troublesome until I find out its set. It can 2HKO everything on my team usually, but it doesn't really find the opportunity. Shandera switches in on Focus Blast and its dead there. Latias can take a Shadow Ball and do some damage, and Arceus is immune to Shadow Ball, but both can take a pretty big chunk of damage before killing it (Arceus is outsped too).
    [​IMG] Genosect - It can't hurt Shandera and is dead unless it predicts and uses U-Turn. Heatran walls it for the most part too.
    [​IMG] Heatran - I am actually pretty weak to opposing Heatran. My Heatran will almost always be outsped and hit with Earth Power / Roar / or Taunt before I can respond in kind. Groudon can OHKO with Earthquake, but I'd need 252 Speed to ensure I always outspeed 252 Timid, and even the Scarf Heatran can outspeed me. That means it will most likely hit me hard with Flamethrower. Arceus can Earthquake it but it sucks if it gets burned ~_~. I usually have to try and predict to get Groudon / Arceus in to hurt it.
    [​IMG] Heracross - It's STABs are walled by Shandera who traps and kill it. Latias can come in on anything but Megahorn and the rare Night Slash and squish the bug with Psycho Shock. Groudon can take a hit and phaze it out or Stone Edge it. Heatran can take anything but Close Combat with ease too.
    [​IMG] Jirachi - If I watch out for Thunder Wave (or simply pivot to Groudon), Shandera comes it and destroys this quite easily. Groudon does fine with Earthquake and its immunity to Thunder Wave too. It doesn't have a chance against Heatran either -- Iron Head can't outflinch it since it has Leftovers.
    [​IMG] Kingdra - Groudon takes away its rain and Dragon Tails it away. Nattorei usually walls it completely, and Latias can take anything but Outrage and kill it with ease when the sun is up.
    [​IMG] Kyurem - Such a depressing Pokemon :(. Hazards limit this thing quite a bit. Heatran walls it save for Focus Blast, which still doesn't OHKO. Latias and Shandera can revenge it easily too.
    [​IMG] Latias - Heatran walls it completely and uses Toxic and/or Taunt to incapacitate it, then Roar it away when I feel like it. Sometimes I just Roar to catch the switch in or whatever. Nattorei walls non-HP Fire variants and sets up. My Latias can take almost any attack it has if really needed. If it lacks Grass Knot, Groudon can take a hit and Dragon Tail it out, but thats pretty shaky. Shandera loses to Calm Mind sets, but can take a chunk of HP and sacrifice itself if needed.
    [​IMG] Latios - Same as Latias for the most part, but I wouldn't try to check it with Groudon.
    [​IMG] Lucario - Latias can check Nasty Plot and unboosted physical versions with ease. Groudon handles either version OK, but usually has to take a big hit. Shandera effortlessly counters all versions unless it switches into Crunch or the like.
    [​IMG] Ludicolo - Groudon takes away its rain. Nattorei can set up on it with ease. Latias walls it but hates Leech Seed versions. Heatran won't get a scratch in the sun, and can Taunt the Leech Seed.
    [​IMG] Manaphy - Groudon takes away this pixie's rain too. Latias handles it from there, and so does Nattorei and to an extent, Heatran.
    [​IMG] Mew - haven't seen much, but BP variants are taken out by either Heatran or Groudon depending on if its runs Taunt or Substitute. Lead is a lot less useful with the Explosion nerf, and the fact you can choose any of your 6 Pokemon to lead.
    [​IMG] Metagross - A lot less common with the Explosion nerf. Heatran can take non-Earthquake variants easily. Groudon doesn't take too much either and can Earthquake it. Nattorei walls it and sets up. Shandera can trap and kill it but has to be careful for Earthquake.
    [​IMG] Nattorei - Shandera or Heatran, enough said.
    [​IMG] Octillery - GRAH FUCK INCONSISTENT. I can't "counter" it but I can weaken its attacks with the sun and Heatran can keep trying to Roar it... Nattorei sorta walls it in the sun if it lacks Flamethrower, but Power Whip's accuracy is already shakey...
    [​IMG] Sazandora - Latias outspeeds and OHKOs. Heatran can wall it I'm pretty sure -- I haven't seen many.
    [​IMG] Scizor - Heatran can kill it, I just have to be careful of switching into Superpower. Shandera can kill it too but U-turn is annoying for both. Groudon can wall and phaze it if needed for some reason.
    [​IMG] Shandera - Heatran utterly walls it unless they start carrying HP Ground. Latias isn't OHKOed by Shadow Ball and can do major damage (if not kill it) with Dragon Pulse. It can trap and kill Nattorei and Arceus if I'm not careful though ;_;.
    [​IMG] Shedinja - lol... 2/3 of my Pokemon have a supereffective move, and I always try to get hazards up first thing.
    [​IMG] Skarmory - Shandera traps and kills any without a Shed Shell (although they can get 2 layers with Sturdy...). Heatran Taunts, walls, and can burn it to death. It can be annoying to Arceus if they start running Shed Shell.
    [​IMG] Tentacruel - This can actually be quite annoying. On average, Shandera will usually die but it will be around 30% (Surf Shadow Ball repeated in the sun). From there I go to Latias to kill it. If it switches it will be almost dead (if not dead) from hazards next time it comes in. Groudon can hit it with Earthquake and Latias with Psycho Shock. The only Rapid Spinner that gives me "trouble."

    [​IMG] Terrakion - One of the biggest threats to Arceus if its Scarfed. If I'm not careful Shandera will be taken out by Stone Edge or Earthquake, but more often then not they are choiced, meaning if I can get Shandera in on a Close Combat it's dead. Groudon walls it for the most part and Latias can outspeed and OHKO with Psycho Shock.
    [​IMG] Tyranitar - I do have Groudon, but it can trap and kill Latias and Shandera with ease. If it has Fire Blast Nattorei can survive usually, but it will take tons of damage before it can retaliate with Power Whip. Groudon can Earthquake it, but its worn down. Tyranitar is actually quite threatening to this team as it can disarm me against things like Kyogre with its trapping capabilities.
    [​IMG] Ulgamoth - This could actually nearly 6-0 the previous version of this team (which had Forretress > Nattorei and Dialga > Heatran) with Butterfly Dance. Heatran walls it though, and Roar + its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock put it down quickly.
    [​IMG]Victini - Walled by Heatran and Latias who can both kill it with Toxic and Dragon Pulse respectively.
    [​IMG] Wobbuffett - Can be problematic if it traps something like Latias and they have Kyogre. I'll usually just use a non-attacking move with anything in an attempt to avoid it killing me -- I can really handle anything with just one turn of set up anyways. Heatran and Shandera are both "immune" to it so to speak with Taunt and Shadow Tag respectively.

    I may include a teambuilding process section later but for now I cba....
  3. Jibaku

    Jibaku Who let all these plants survive??
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Dec 13, 2005
    Speed creep on Groudon halp 9.9

    I'd use 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SDef Careful on Nattorei. It gives you one point higher Special Defense :p

    I prefer Gyro Ball on Nattorei since it has more power, accuracy, and hits Reshiram switch ins harder, but Power Whip is alright. You have decent coverage on Kyogre already though...

    I would honestly have 168 Speed EVs on Arceus. You'll never know when you'll need it against Rayquaza 9.9...

    Consider putting more bulk on Latias to handle Reshiram better (sortof). Just to give a picture, max HP Latias takes 73% max from LO Dragon Pulse.

    I don't have much to say but this is a great team and once again demonstrates the brokenness of Shandera (you'd hate to admit it though).

    bbl using HP Ground Ulgamoth
  4. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 17, 2010
    You said you use the same Groudon spread.... 9.9

    Oh I'll change the Nattorei's spread but Power Whip is important for stuff like Kyogre which I find myself having a bit of trouble with...

    I actually thought about using that Arceus spread a bit but was too lazy to ever try it lol.

    Arceus is more broken than Shandera, you just don't want to admit it >:D

    (psst ban Arceus!)
  5. trickroom

    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 13, 2009
    A solid team with no major weaknesses..

    If Natttorei uses Gyro ball, the team also struggles a bit against Ground Arceus and Water Arceus.

    I don't think Deoxys-A is even a problem for you, every pokemon in your team has something to take it out. Superpower fails to OHKO Heatran and Nattorei without Life orb while Shandera can actually survive one unboosted Shadow Ball.

    Jibaku's Heatran is ripping stall teams just by himself A Lugia with Earthquake and Dragon Tail can be a nuisance as you need Nattorei to annoy it. Also, if Lugia dropped Whirlwind for the rare Weather Ball, Nattorei is KOed. Well no one is using that kind Lugia other than one guy.

    Kyogre is only a problem if Latias is down or gets trapped by Tyranitar.
    Reshiram is annoying if he Nitro Charges. Blue Fire will hurt everyone but Latias.

    You have Groudon for Tyranitar. About Jibaku's rare Focus Blasts Ghost Arceus, I can't suggest any changes, maybe you have to play around it.
  6. calze6


    Nov 28, 2009
    Consider Palkia over latias as a scarfed one may be your only hope against Nitro charge reshiram. I would seriously consider a more offensive EV spread for arceus of a jolly 80HP/252Atk/176Spd in order to outrun max speed latias and latios.
  7. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 17, 2010
    LO Dragon Pulse from Nitro charge Reshiram will not OHKO Latias after Rocks. It will need either Outrage or Draco Meteor (or Dragon Claw maybe but who uses that...) to OHKO. Either one leaves it in quite a bad position. Arceus also does about 50% to it with ExtremeSpeed too, meaning after a few rounds of LO damage, assuming it switched into some hazards, it will go down quite quickly. Latias is just far too useful to let go... I really don't have too much trouble with the Latis, and ExtremeSpeed does more than Shadow Calw to them with Silk Scarf and STAB factored in.

    Not really related to your comments, but I'm going to test Gyro Ball and max Attack Adamant Arceus 9.9....
  8. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Global Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Jan 18, 2009
    Adamant is much better to power up Extremespeed. Also, there is no need to outrun Latias/Latios when a Silk Scarf STAB Extremespeed actually does more than Shadow Claw...

    This is a solid team, firecape, and I hope I have served you well in Shandera form. >:D

    IMO Latias should stay over Palkia because you can play around Reshiram. (Weaken it to about 55% then ESpeed it with Arceus, not too hard with LO + Hazards.) but it will likely kill at least one member of your team.

    I do feel Gyro Ball would be a worthwhile option to use over Power Whip on Nattorei in case DD Ray manages to set up and Groudon is dead, and it helps you weaken Reshiram more quickly.

    Also for Arceus I would just max Attack. I don't know what 252 HP EVs do that 136 don't, and the extra power is quite helpful for revenge killing/sweeping.

    Also, be aware of Pursuiter + SpecsOgre as that WILL smash your team to pieces. Just play smart with Latias.

    Again, great team, not too much to fix.
  9. Anachronism


    May 6, 2009
    One underrated threat to your team is shed shell Skarmory. It can currently come in on 4/6 of your team and force them out while setting up spikes. If they have a decent Heatran answer you will be in serious trouble! I think that Groudon should just use Fire Punch instead of slashing it with Stone Edge. You have Heatran and Shandera to wall Ho-oh and near-OHKO it, respectively.

    For your Heatran, I would consider removing Toxic for Protect. The extra Leftovers recovery has been welcomed since I started testing it. I think that the extra speed on it is already useful for taking out slow Groudon. I would use 252 HP / 96 Sdef / 160 Speed Calm Personally. Outspeeds even speed creepy Groudons :)

    For your Nattorei spread, I would recommend 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 Sdef Careful/Sassy. This puts in more Sdef EVs than Jibaku's spread, which is where you really need the bulk. You also get an extra point out of the deal!

    Although I haven't personally played against this team, it seems very solid, so keep up the good work!
  10. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 17, 2010
    Ya I the Skarmory thing is even worsened if they have Tyranitar :(... Not much I can really change though for that. On the note of Fire Punch, I have taken to using it pretty much all the time, I just am keeping it slashed to show it was an addition sorta.

    I'll try out Protect on Heatran as I actually had considered it earlier since I put Toxic on mainly for the latis, but they don't really like burns and Taunt in the sun. Protect seems quite useful as Heatran's only form of recover is lefties. I really don't want to Speed creep on Heatran though, as I would never really try to stay in on Groudon unless I feel they will Stealth Rock. The added bulk is quite helpful though, and I know Jibaku runs like 252 Jolly on his defensive groudon -_-.

    The main reason why I run Special Defense on Nattorei is to survive 2 Surfs from Specs Kyogre. Other than that Heatran is usually my tank for special attacks, so I like a good mix on Nattorei. Speaking of switch, I'm thinking about testing Shed Shell on Nattorei for Shandera. If I do I'll probably take up a much more special defense oriented spread as I lose lefites ;_;...

    Thanks for the rate
  11. trickroom

    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 13, 2009
    Jibaku doesn't run 252 Jolly on defensive Groudon. He still uses Impish but can still outspeed Jolly Tyranitar in some of his teams.

    If you use shed shell, Nattorei loses passive recovery which is bad, but at least you can escape Shandera and use Leech seed as healing but usually Nattorei loves lefties more.

    If you use Fire punch, Groudon can lure out Skarmory and 2HKO it. Heatran can usually force out Skarmory and you can use the situtation to your advantage by Roaring Skarmory out to rack up residual damage which Jibaku is good at doing.
  12. Jibaku

    Jibaku Who let all these plants survive??
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Dec 13, 2005

    Anyways, posting to say that Flamethrower > Lava Plume. I found that Lava Plume rarely burns (;_;), and that it could sometimes burn the wrong Pokemon (like Latias). The power boost from Flamethrower lets Heatran score 2HKOes on Groudon and offensive Dialga, and also takes advantage of Flash Fire more.
  13. Anachronism


    May 6, 2009
    Heatran already 2hkos Groudon.
  14. j99ubers


    Sep 17, 2010
    Although you haven't mentioned it on the threatlist I think Chlorophyll Venusaur is quite a big threat to this team, since it can OHKO Heatran with Earthquake, outspeed Shandera, and it can incapicate something with sleep. It might be difficult to stop, although Latias can beat most sets it won't like coming in on Sleep Powder.
  15. min min

    min min

    Jun 26, 2010
    You might have a problem there with defensive Fighting Arceus, as I'm pretty sure only Shanderaa can kill it. Rare, but meh. Merry Christmas!
  16. Jibaku

    Jibaku Who let all these plants survive??
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Dec 13, 2005
    Lava Plume vs Max HP / 0 SDef Groudon: 44%-52%
    Flamethrower vs the same Groudon: 52%-61%
  17. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 17, 2010
    Yes I have taken to running Fire Punch on Groudon, lol. I have been considering Shed Shell on Nattorei, but a good number of teams have some trouble (obviously if they lack Shandera....) with Nattorei, especially with the ever-annoying Leech Seed + Protect + Lefties combo, which assures quite a bit HP with all of the high HP totals most ubers have.

    I don't run Toxic anymore on Heatran, so it can't really burn the wrong Pokemon. Burn on Latias can be extremely annoying for it as it obviously won't have lefties. Heatran can usually stick around to inflict that burn too as the latis can't really touch it. To be honest I find myself spamming Roar and Lava Pluming only if I can't afford to have something like Nattorei predicting a Roar (as, like I said, I will usually use Roar on them anyways) and setting up SPikes. In cases like this the 10 more BP hardly makes a difference. I find the 30% chance of taking 12% of their HP a lot more useful. Also, with all the Roaring Groudon or whatever will usually take enough residual damage so it doesn't matter and they die anyways.

    Yeah I have noticed this a bit, but I just have to play smart with Latias usually. Also, Arceus's ExtremeSpeed can take a chunk after some damage, and its not like Venusaur can OHKO it Arceus. Just gotta watch out for Sleep Powder. On a side note, I've taken to using max Attack Arceus with the EVs shifted over from HP. It still has a considerable amount of bulk.

    Uhhh... Latias

    Easily takes +1 anything it has (gotta watch out for Dark Flinch though) and OHKO or do major damage with Psycho Shock.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)