Burning 'Mon [Pre-Viability Update]

[Non-Guest 31415]

Hey, wait! Flareon doesn't get Burned! Maybe you can use it as a physical attacker in thi-

252+ Atk burned Groudon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Flareon: 258-304 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...oh.

 

[canno]

Hey, wait! Flareon doesn't get Burned! Maybe you can use it as a physical attacker in thi-

252+ Atk burned Groudon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Flareon: 258-304 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...oh.

What's funny is Flareon might be the only Fire-type that wants to be burned - Now it can't abuse Guts like the rest of the Guts users! :(

 

[Jajoken]

What's funny is Flareon might be the only Fire-type that wants to be burned - Now it can't abuse Guts like the rest of the Guts users! :(

He'll be that one kid that has to use Toxic Orb because he's allergic to burns, and everyone makes fun of him for it.

 

[Heroes and Cons]

Life Orb Alakazam might just be the best damn Pokemon in this meta. Psyshock wrecks the special walls that will surely plague this metagame, while its speed, perfect coverage and special attacking prowess give it its well-known sweeping potential.

Also, with common counters like Scizor and Tyranitar now utterly crippled, Leftovers + Calm Mind + Magic Guard Reuniclus is incredibly tough to face. The only things I can think of that would be a guaranteed OHKO would be Ursaring's Facade and Heracross' Megahorn, and neither of those Pokemon can safely switch in.

 

[thdhted]

-ate mons actually seem interesting here due to the high BP they get from facade.
For example:
252+ Atk Pixilate Sylveon Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
compared to:
252+ SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

even though sylveon's attack is garbage, that damage is enough to turn a 3HKO into a 2HKO.
not to mention the fact that sylveon has wish to increase the lifespan of other burned mons, and an actual offensive presence.

 

[DinaIsha]

A full regenerator team can win matches quite easily. And I think this deserves a mention:

Treveant @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Harvest
- Leech Seed
- Infestation
- Protect
- Rest

Stall being the dominant trend here is easily understandable.

 

[Ghoul King]

A full regenerator team can win matches quite easily.

252+ Atk Life Orb Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Eh, fair enough. It's not like it's an option to hit them with Toxic, since there's no Fire-type Regenerator.

Treveant @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Harvest
- Leech Seed
- Infestation
- Protect
- Rest

Stall being the dominant trend here is easily understandable.

252+ Atk Life Orb Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Trevenant: 411-484 (109.8 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Bad example, I think.

Life Orb Alakazam might just be the best damn Pokemon in this meta. Psyshock wrecks the special walls that will surely plague this metagame, while its speed, perfect coverage and special attacking prowess give it its well-known sweeping potential.

I doubt best, particularly given Houndoom has good utility in this meta. But it'd be nice to see Alakazam have a niche again.

Also, with common counters like Scizor and Tyranitar now utterly crippled, Leftovers + Calm Mind + Magic Guard Reuniclus is incredibly tough to face. The only things I can think of that would be a guaranteed OHKO would be Ursaring's Facade and Heracross' Megahorn, and neither of those Pokemon can safely switch in.

252+ Atk Life Orb Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 413-489 (97.4 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Not 100% a sure thing, but close enough. Banded is 100% sure, naturally. Meanwhile

4 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 218-260 (62.1 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

means that Psyshock can't actually KO Conkeldurr on the way in if it's fresh, so you can't just send Reuniclus out and assume it's fine to Calm Mind up and go for the sweep. But yeah Reuniclus is probably going to be a cool choice in this meta.

 

[DinaIsha]

Why exactly would you switch a Treveant in on a Conkeldurr? You switch in a Rocky Helmet Skarmory or such.

 

[Akumeoy]

A full regenerator team can win matches quite easily.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 465-547 (87 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (93.8% chance to KO after burn)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 339-399 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and burn damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Reuniclus: 650-768 (153.3 - 181.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro: 678-798 (172 - 202.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 368-434 (93.4 - 110.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after burn)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 294-346 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 297-351 (89.4 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 200-236 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

A few fully invested Assault Vesters can downgrade to a 2HKO that they can mostly heal off in one switch, Audino can counter it, and Mienshao can at least Knock its specs Off before dying horribly. The point remains, however, that Specs Drifblim places such immense pressure on Regenerator teams that they would be forced to bring in outside help to deal with it.

Also, with the ability to pass Wishes, Magic Guard, and a reason to run Protect to rack up burn damage, Clefable looks to be great in this meta. The most powerful attackers in the tier need to be healed up every so often, and Clefable seems like a prime candidate. If you're running Drifblim, though, you would be best advised to have an Alomomola for this job. Because its HP is fucknormous.

 

[Jajoken]

People have been bringing up some good defensive choices I'd like to add one more:

Even though Scald is pretty much a dead utility at this point, Milotic can still take advantage of great bulk and Marvel Scale to be a threat in the meta.

252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 160-189 (40.7 - 48%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

It can also go Specially Defensive, taking advantage of its much higher stat while Marvel Scale allows it to survive weaker physical hits. It gets Recover for longevity and even uninvested, Hydro Pumps or Surfs coming off of base 100 Special Attack is very solid for a defensive 'mon. You even have a few tricks like Mirror Coat to bop Special Attackers and Dragon Tail to stop set-up sweepers.

Also: I've updated the OP with some things brought up in the thread, like Hex and -ate abilities. With any luck this will get hosted soon and we can start testing Mixed Kangaskhan.

 

[DinaIsha]

Drifblim puts a pressure on everything. It's one of the best in the meta. But it's easily revenged and doesn't last long. Granted, you lose at least 2 mons in the process, it's still too hard to break 3 Regen mons, especially with Wishpassing.

 

[Ghoul King]

Why exactly would you switch a Treveant in on a Conkeldurr? You switch in a Rocky Helmet Skarmory or such.

252+ Atk Life Orb Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 157-187 (47 - 55.9%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

This seems ill-advised. I'd go for the Regenerator Slowbro switch-in.

And my point was that you are under-estimating the ridiculous damage potential of Guts Pokemon. (And Flare Boost Drifblim, but I didn't think to bring that up myself) The fact that Conkeldurr can Drain Punch right on through Physically Defensive Skarmory kind of reinforces that point. (And this is Life Orb, not Banded)

Drifblim puts a pressure on everything. It's one of the best in the meta. But it's easily revenged and doesn't last long. Granted, you lose at least 2 mons in the process, it's still too hard to break 3 Regen mons, especially with Wishpassing.

If you're that passive, it can Rest off the damage. If you try to punish the Rest, it can potentially just have a cleric ready to wake it up afterward.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 465-547 (87 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (93.8% chance to KO after burn)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 339-399 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and burn damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Reuniclus: 650-768 (153.3 - 181.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro: 678-798 (172 - 202.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 368-434 (93.4 - 110.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after burn)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 294-346 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 297-351 (89.4 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 200-236 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

A few fully invested Assault Vesters can downgrade to a 2HKO that they can mostly heal off in one switch, Audino can counter it, and Mienshao can at least Knock its specs Off before dying horribly. The point remains, however, that Specs Drifblim places such immense pressure on Regenerator teams that they would be forced to bring in outside help to deal with it.

Also, with the ability to pass Wishes, Magic Guard, and a reason to run Protect to rack up burn damage, Clefable looks to be great in this meta. The most powerful attackers in the tier need to be healed up every so often, and Clefable seems like a prime candidate. If you're running Drifblim, though, you would be best advised to have an Alomomola for this job. Because its HP is fucknormous.

That is amazing. #Drifblim new meta, no joke.

People have been bringing up some good defensive choices I'd like to add one more:

Even though Scald is pretty much a dead utility at this point, Milotic can still take advantage of great bulk and Marvel Scale to be a threat in the meta.

Replacing Scald with Surf is a direct upgrade in fire powerpower for no disadvantage when everything is Burned anyway. So that's nifty.

 

[Jajoken]

Drifblim puts a pressure on everything. It's one of the best in the meta. But it's easily revenged and doesn't last long. Granted, you lose at least 2 mons in the process, it's still too hard to break 3 Regen mons, especially with Wishpassing.

One thing people seem to be forgetting is that Hex only deals significant damage if the opponent is burned. That seems like a given in this metagame, but Fire Types will be taking the unimpressive 65 bp version of the move. Granted, there aren't a good number of defensive Fire types, but I know a few people have used Specially Defensive Y-zard and Assault Vest Entei.

EDIT: EV Spread taken from the damage calculator:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 130-154 (35 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Speaking of the blimp, Specs seems great for raw power, but I want to try this set:

Drifblim @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Flare Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 156 SpD / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Hex
- Tailwind
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Pain Split/Calm Mind/Memento

100 Speed with a neutral nature lets you outspeed Timid Mega-zam after Tailwind, who will Trace your Flare Boost and obliterate the entire game. You can run more for various Scarfers if you wish. Modest Spooky Plate allows you to get the most out of Hex without using Life Orb, HP Fighting hits Normal types, and Pain Split gives you much needed recovery. Granted, Drifblim has such a massive HP stat that Pain Split may end up working against you, though I've invested the remaining stats in Sp Def to minimize this. Calm Mind is an option for a double dance set if you think you can manage it, and Memento will allow you to pass Tailwind turns to another sweeper when things look dire. Shadow Ball in the last slot may be another option so that you can hit Fire types harder.

EDIT: I just wanted to calc this for the hell of it...oh god.

252+ SpA Flare Boost Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 274-324 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

 

[11pikabro]

If I read the OP correctly, then this looks like a meta where I'd put Soak on a Pokémon just to get all the Fire-types burned, too. I'm sure Victini, Talonflame, and MegaZard-X wouldn't like that at all.

Healing Wish and Chesto-Rest might be the way to go in order to quickly patch up wallbreakers and sweepers, both physical and special alike, who lack recovery but maintain heavy offensive pressure on the opponent. The only problem is that the burn comes back immediately, so it's not a perfect alternative.

 

[Jajoken]

If I read the OP correctly, then this looks like a meta where I'd put Soak on a Pokémon just to get all the Fire-types burned, too. I'm sure Victini, Talonflame, and MegaZard-X wouldn't like that at all.

I just tested to see if Fire types were still burned after regaining their typing:

Yep!

Soak might be a viable option for screwing over certain Pokemon. Admittedly, the distribution isn't great (no OU-ranked Pokemon learns it except Azumaril, who's trash in this meta) though you can stick it on something like Floatzel or Alomomola to be cheeky. I'm not sure why you wouldn't switch if it was a Water type versus a Fire type...maybe if you're Zard-X?

 

[Blumenwitz]

Is anyone else excited to use Politoed in this meta?

Fire- types are undoubtedly going to be running amok here, so rain might end up being surprisingly effective... in an anti-meta sort of way.

 

[Akumeoy]

Some good supporters for Drifblim, I think (never thought I'd be making this list):

• Banded Talonflame: Nukes Alakazam and every relevant Guts user that threatens to outspeed Drifblim, threatens the Specially defensive AV users that Drifblim only 2HKOes.
• Milotic, which should be able to handle many Fire-types (it's always 2HKOed by Zard-Y's Solar Beam, though [Mega Charizard Y new meta?]) that take Hex at 65BP.
• Chansey, which can pass it wishes and walls Zard-Y.
• Alomomola, which can take on Fire-users and pass wishes, but not as well as Milotic or Chansey, respectively.
• Fighting-type Guts users, which can take on opposing pink blobs.
• Lanturn or Rotom-Wash. Both can take some Fire attacks and give a slow Volt Switch out for Drifblim when the time comes. Lanturn gets Heal Bell and can run Volt Absorb or Water Absorb to tank some attacks for Drifblim or a Fire-type, respectively. Rotom-Wash has overall better stats and can run a Trick-scarf to screw up an opposing wall.

Moreover, I'm going to predict that hazards will play a good role in this meta -- bringing in something just to spin or Defog them away means taking a few turns of Burn damage, which is particularly undesirable in the face of offensive pressure.

 

[Jajoken]

On my quest to find just how powerful Drifblim's Spex Hex is, I went to the Ubers tier. Turns out the answer is "more powerful than Palkia's Specs Draco Meteor and Life Orb Deoxys-A Psycho Boost, but less powerful than GeoXern's +2 Moonblast and Specs Ogre Water Spout."

252 SpA Choice Specs Palkia Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus: 225-265 (50.6 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Fairy: 242-286 (54.5 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Fairy: 259-306 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Fairy: 291-343 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Fairy in Rain: 390-459 (87.8 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

If Hex wasn't easy to play around, this thing would be banned. As it stands, being Choice locked into a Ghost move can be problematic, and some Special walls will still be able to take you on. Chansey can for obvious reasons, but so can Umbreon (barely):

252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

It's also rather slow at 80 base, though Tailwind and even Choice Scarf sets can remedy this. I'm not even sure if Specs will be its best set, I think there are multiple viable options to try. I'm really excited to see how Drifblim fares in this meta: the blimp hype is real.

 

[EV]

Besides Soak and Rain being anti-meta, Gastro Acid, Worry Seed, and even Skill Swap are helpful in neutering a Guts user in a pinch.

Heatran might rise to counteract the higher use of Fire-types.

Let the residual burn damage work for you. Carry Protect. Start Sandstorm. Wear a Rocky Helmet.

I see Wish being important for all teams. Regenerator Audino and Alomomola are obviously some of the best users, but Mega Audino is worth consideration for its typing and better bulk. Too bad Healer is there. Maybe a Doubles version?

 

[NOCturnal Hunter]

I can imagine MegaZam here, not thought about, but has the potential to rip everything apart. With a set of Psyshock, Protect (so it can get its shiny new stats safely), and some other coverage, there might not be much holding this offensive threat back. Drifblim? Trace means MegaZam will kill you. Easily. Seriously, you might need a fair amount of priority to keep this threat at bay. Sucker Punch+Pursuit would be nice, if it wasn't for the fact that burns weaken them to beyond bad. In terms of Sucker Punch+Pursuit+Guts, only Raticate/Rattata. Who are some of the worst Pokemon around. Thoughts?

Thoughts on Diggersby? Sure, burns hurt that Huge Power, but Facade will still sting backed by his attack stat and STAB. Not the best, but I can see it being decent.

Charizard might be a huge threat here. Mega Zard X takes advantage of burns with its bulkier playstyle, while Y Threatens to KO crippled foes. Could be a major threat.

Shadow Tag+Recovery might be one of the hugest threats in the metagame; you break stall, as you are recovering until the burns kill them off. Not to mention it does the same thing to offense. Thank goodness, no one gets it. If someone did get it, it would need a ban, as it would be everywhere.

Victini is a monster. That is all I have to say about him and the meta for now.

 

[skies]

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Facade
- Roost
- Earthquake

Here's a set that I feel has real potential! I saw Altaria mentioned before, but here's a set to try out. Facade hits a whopping 140 base power before Pixilate and boosts, so it's insanely strong. With all these physical attackers crippled, Altaria finds many opportunities to set up and just... win. Facade breaks through everything bar Steel- and Fire-type Pokemon, which is where Earthquake comes in. Despite being burned, it OHKOes its main target, Heatran, after one boost and Stealth Rock damage. Besides this, it will dent Steel-types switch ins. The only relevant Pokemon that resist this combination are Charizard and Talonflame, are OHKOed by +1 Facade. Skarmory could be useful, but it's 2HKOed by a +2 Facade. Scary. And Skarmory is burned, so there's that. Roost mitigates the Burn damage, so there's that as well. Mega Altaria looks absolutely fantastic in this metagame ^_^.

 

[Tarontos]

Jajoken
your mechanic

"Mechanic: Every Pokemon that can be burned will start the battle in a burned state.
If this burn is removed, it will re-apply itself at the end of the next active turn like the Flame Orb."

is currently very biased against any non burn based status abilities. I also feel it almost entirely invalidates most physical attackers

the mechanic could change to

"Burn is applied at the end of every turn after the entire turn is done."

Changes this would cause

Toxic orb becomes viable on non-guts physical attackers to maintain fire power
toxic heal becomes enormously useful rater than next to useless.
gives physical attackers a single turn to wall break/and or U-turn out.
provides lum berry with some use in allowing a physically based Pokemon to wall break twice or be Statused once.

 

[Akumeoy]

Jajoken
your mechanic

"Mechanic: Every Pokemon that can be burned will start the battle in a burned state.
If this burn is removed, it will re-apply itself at the end of the next active turn like the Flame Orb."

is currently very biased against any non burn based status abilities. I also feel it almost entirely invalidates most physical attackers

the mechanic could change to

"Burn is applied at the end of every turn after the entire turn is done."

Changes this would cause

Toxic orb becomes viable on non-guts physical attackers to maintain fire power
toxic heal becomes enormously useful rater than next to useless.
gives physical attackers a single turn to wall break/and or U-turn out.
provides lum berry with some use in allowing a physically based Pokemon to wall break twice or be Statused once.

So? The idea of this meta is to shift playstyles in new directions. Rejiggering the mechanics to make standard strategies more viable seems completely unnecessary, and moreover, it seems to be missing the point.

 

[Tarontos]

It's not to make standard stratagem more viable it is to make certain things usable. every toxic ability is cure try worthless this would at least make them usable with out something niche like aroma therapy on your team. And killing momentum. I pesos all just see the starting burn as uneceary because physical attackers are still next to entirely unusable to side of a few things. It was just a suggestion.

 

[Elveman]

Available on Russian Pokemon Community Showdown server! http://78.24.219.229.psim.us/
It's not registered though, so no replays =(