Burning 'Mon [Pre-Viability Update]

-(Approved by Eevee General and The Immortal)

[Source]

[PLAY IT ON ROM]
Don't you hate missing Will o' Wisp? Do your Scalds never burn? Well, good news -- your opponent is already burned! And...so are you. So is everyone.

Everyone is burned.

Clauses: Standard OU Clauses
Banlist: Standard OU Banlist +

Unbanlist:

-
Mechanic: Every Pokemon that can be burned will start the battle in a burned state.
If this burn is removed, it will re-apply itself at the end of the next active turn like the Flame Orb.

While this seems like a small change, it has massive repercussions on the metagame. Not only does it cause huge shifts in viability, but it creates a ticking time bomb that speeds up the pace of the battle as everyone burns to death. Not only do you need to pay attention to how much damage your opponent can do to you, but you need to ration off some life to survive your Burn. On the flip-side, that final tick of damage can help you turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs and so on. While the extra damage benefits Offense, doesn't mean Stall is dead: as long as you can outlast the opponent, everyone will fall to flames eventually. Who better to outlast than a Stall 'mon?

Let's look at what might flourish in this metagame, and what will turn to ashes.

Increased Viability:

Special Attackers:
Without the damage drop that the Burn status brings, Special Attackers can still attack at full power without any gimmicks. It goes without saying that as Special Attackers gain popularity, Special Walls will follow them.
Guts/Quick Feet/Facade Users
: Without the need to hold a Flame/Toxic Orb, Pokemon like Ursaring, Conkeldurr and Heracross can run items like Choice Band/Scarf, Assault Vest and Leftovers (to mitigate the passive damage). Even defensive Pokemon can benefit, as running Facade on a mono-attacking set is now very powerful, even Pokemon that resist it won't appreciate base 140 damage.
Pixilate/Refrigerate/Aerilate Users
: Normal is a pretty poor choice for a mono-attacker, unless you're Mega Lopunny. The infamous -ate abilities can turn that type into something more favorable like Flying or Ice, and hit with boosted power. Mega Pinsir, Mega Glalie and Mega Altaria can all make good use of a mono-attacking set with Facade and set-up moves/recover/utility.
Fire Types
: An oft-maligned type due to a Stealth Rock weakness and poor resistances, Fire type Pokemon now hold the distinct advantage of remaining unburned. Physical attackers like Entei and Talonflame can strike at full strength, while defensive Pokemon like Heatran and Rotom-H won't suffer from the residual damage. But watch out for Soak! If you get hit, you'll be burned at the turn's end, and stay that way until cured.
Hex Users
: Hex is normally an underwhelming 65 bp Ghost move, but if your opponent is afflicted by status, it jumps to an impressive 130 bp. Pokemon like Drifblim and Chandelure, which already are good picks in this metagame, jump in popularity thanks to a massive upgrade from Shadow Ball. Just watch out for Fire types that won't take the double damage, or Normal types are just outright immune.
Magic Guard Users
: A burned Magic Guard User not only takes no damage from the Burn, but they cannot be afflicted by another more troubling status effect, like Paralysis and Sleep. Pokemon like Clefable and Alakazam and Sigilyph will surely see greater use.
Recovery/Regenerator Users
: Already a vital part of competitive play, recovery matters now more than every Wish-passers and Leech Seed user can even spread that recovery to their teammates, allowing them to survive their un-ending Burn.
Natural Cure Users
: While the Burn will return, switching out resets the counter and allows you a Burn-free turn when you come back in. Pokemon like Chansey that are always switching around can spare themselves a lot of passive damage.
Water Veil Users
: If there were any good users of this ability, surely they'd be viable! Floatzel and Huntail may see more use due to being the only viable physical Water types, as they are no longer outclassed by threats like Azumaril.
Marvel Scale Users
: Milotic can sponge physical and special attacks thanks to this ability, and the legendary wall, Eviolite Dragonair, will surely take the meta by storm (probably not...I can dream).
Flare Boost Users
: A great ability that surely has lots of viable...oh wait its just Drifblim. Praise the blimp!

Decreased Viability:

Most Physical Attackers
: Aside from those possessing the traits listed above, Physical Attackers have been scorched to irrelevancy. OU staples like Azumaril and Landorus-T are utterly crippled. Even Mega Mawile returns from Ubers only to suck!
No-Recovery Walls
: Already in a shaky position, Pokemon like Mega Aggron and Goodra can only last for so long without reliable recovery moves to keep them healthy. Rest can help, as you won't take burn damage while asleep, but you'll also be a sitting duck.
Sweepers
: A good sweeper can clean up an opponent's team without taking any damage. Now, that's pretty much a necessity, as otherwise they will die on their own from Burn. Unless you can get a safe switch and set up, you'll have taken too much damage to finish the job.
Status-Spreaders
: Why would you need a Pokemon like Sableye to spread burns now that everyone is already burned? Why use Scald over Surf or Hydro Pump? Pokemon that relied on these moves are basically out of a job, though Toxic, Paralysis and Sleep users can still take on the occasional Fire type.
Life Orb Users
: As you're losing 12% HP per turn to the Burn, another 10% per attack adds up quickly. While still manageable, Life Orb attackers are a more risky gambit in this metagame. Items like Expert Belt and Wise Glasses may have to fill the void.
Focus Sash/Sturdy/Multiscale Users
: This one is pretty simple -- you can't maintain a Sash/Sturdy/Multiscale if you're taking damage every turn. Fans of putting a Sash on a frail but powerful Pokemon as a last resort will have to stick with Fire types, Magic Guard Users, and the mighty Sash Floatzel.
Heal Bell/Aromatherapy Users
: Using one of these moves will only soothe the pain for a brief instant, so there's really no point except to save an extra turn of damage and power reduction.

Q&A:

Q: What if my Pokemon is holding a Lum Berry/Rawst Berry?
A: The burn will be cured as you switch in, the berry will be consumed, and you'll be burned at the end of the turn. My question to you is -- why would you want that?

Q: What if my Pokemon is holding a Toxic Orb?
A: If your status is cured by Heal Bell/Refresh/etc., then on the next available turn, your Toxic Orb will activate before you're burned again. That sounds like an awful lot of work to use Gliscor, though.

Q: What if my Pokemon is holding a Flame Orb?
A: Stop! Now you've just become the Rotom-Fan of this metagame.

Q: Why not regular Poison? It does the same damage as Burn but doesn't ruin physical attackers.
A: That's precisely the reason I didn't go with Poison. Obviously about half the game is unviable now, but there are so many damn Pokemon, that plenty of underutilized picks will rise to fill niches left by the Metagrosses of the world. Have you ever seen a Floatzel in OU? Well maybe you might now! Special attackers will surely be favored, but as OU is traditionally physically-biased, that may not be such a bad thing. Also: in the case of Poison, Steel types would be buffed. Ew.

Q: What is the code for this metagame? Why am I asking this?
A:
config/formats.js
Code:
    {
        name: "Burning 'Mon",
        section: "Other Metagames",

        ruleset: ['Pokemon', 'Standard', 'Team Preview'],
        banlist: ['Mewtwo', 'Lugia', 'Ho-Oh', 'Blaziken', 'Kyogre', 'Rayquaza', 'Deoxys', 'Deoxys-Attack', 'Deoxys-Defense', 'Deoxys-Speed', 'Dialga', 'Palkia', 'Giratina', 'Girainta-Origin', 'Darkrai', 'Shaymin-Sky', 'Arceus', 'Reshiram', 'Kyurem-White', 'Xerneas', 'Yveltal', 'Soul Dew', 'Gengarite', 'Salamencite', 'Red Orb'],
        onBegin: function () {
            this.add('-message', "Hah! You better have BURN HEAL!"); //This message is optional. Feel free to get rid of it if you don't want it.
            for (var i = 0; i < this.p1.pokemon.length; i++) {
                if (this.p1.pokemon[i].runImmunity('brn')) {
                    this.p1.pokemon[i].status = 'brn';
                }
            }
            for (var j = 0; j < this.p2.pokemon.length; j++) {
                if (this.p2.pokemon[j].runImmunity('brn')) {
                    this.p2.pokemon[j].status = 'brn';
                }
            }
        },
        onResidualOrder: 999, //This will always occur as the last possible occurence of the turn's residual phase.
        onResidual: function () {
            this.p1.pokemon[0].trySetStatus('brn');
            this.p2.pokemon[0].trySetStatus('brn');
            //Trust me I tried pokemon.trySetStatus it doesn't work ;_;
        }
    },
Q: Where can I play this?
A: You can play it on the ROM server!

Sets and Threats:
(By Mygavolt)

Glalie @ Glalitite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Spikes
- Taunt
- filler

(By Mygavolt)

Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Cute Charm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Encore
- Baton Pass
- Healing Wish

(By Jajoken)

RANDBATS GOD (Sigilyph) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Stored Power
- Roost
- Charge Beam/Whirlwind

(By The Reptile)

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Facade
- Shadow Ball
- Seismic Toss
- Wish

(By The Reptile)

Zekrom @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Roost
- Haze / Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse / Earth Power

(By Jajoken)

Drifblim @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Flare Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 156 SpD / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Hex
- Tailwind
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Pain Split/Calm Mind/Memento

(By unfixable)

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Facade
- Roost
- Earthquake

(By Elveman)

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Seismic Toss
- Wish
- Protect

(By Jajoken)

Diggersby @ Silk Scarf/Leftovers
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Swords Dance
- Spikes
- Knock Off/Super Fang

(By Jajoken)

Heracross @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Earthquake
- Facade/Knock Off

Replays:

Ghoul King vs. The Reptile [1, 2, 3, 4]
Jajoken vs. Ghoul King [1, 2]
Inundacion vs. Elveman [1]
 
Last edited:
Pre-Viability Rankings

Obviously, this meta isn't developed enough for viability rankings. However, viability discussion is often what drives activity in an OM. In that vein, I'd like to start a sort of "pre-viability rankings" list where we don't rank Pokemon in comparison to each other, just in relation to themselves as they function in standard OU. This will mostly be based on theory, but I've played a bit of this meta and I'd be happy to play with anyone who sends me a message about it if you'd like to get some experience. The end goal of these pre-viability rankings (a better term might be "potential rankings") is to create a preliminary listing for those wanting to try out the OM, and if it gets popular enough, it will serve as the basis for solidified viability rankings.

There are four categories, and the categories mean nothing in relation to each other: Tier I is not nessecarily better than Tier II, they're just groups with a commonality.

Tier I: Rising Flames
These Pokemon were previously nonviable or somewhat viable in standard OU, but due to the mechanics of the OM, they have a clear and obvious niche in the metagame. In addition, previously banned Pokemon that are now usable would go here. In general, this category consists of Pokemon that show a lot of promise (they could end up somewhere from B- to S eventually), and as such they should be tested to verify their effectiveness.

Aegislash
Alakazam
Chandelure
Cofagrigus
Conkeldurr
Drifblim
Entei
Floatzel
Genesect
Greninja
Groudon
Heracross
Houndoom (Mega)
Huntail
Infernape
Kangaskhan (Mega)
Lucario (Mega)
Reuniclus
Rotom (Heat)
Swellow
Ursaring
Victini
Zekrom

Tier II: Steady Pyres
These Pokemon were previously viable in OU, but they are either unaffected by the mechanics of the OM or they've gained minor buffs in the transition. In general, this category consists of Pokemon somewhere on this list whose ranking would be very similar (+/- 2-3 subranks) if we had true viability rankings. Bolded Pokemon are especially promising in this specific meta, even if they'd probably be ranked around the same place.

Alakazam (Mega)
Alomomola
Amoongus
Ampharos (Mega)
Azelf
Blastoise (Mega)
Blissey
Celebi
Chansey
Charizard (Mega X)
Charizard (Mega Y)

Clefable
Cresselia
Dragalge
Empoleon
Gardevoir (Mega)
Gastrodon
Gengar
Heatran
Hydreigon
Hoopa
Jellicent
Keldeo
Kingrda
Klefki
Kyurem
Latias
Latias (Mega)
Latios
Magnezone
Magneton
Manaphy
Manectric (Mega)
Nidoking
Omastar
Pidgeot (Mega)
Politoed
Porygon2
Raikou
Rotom (Wash)
Sceptile (Mega)
Serperior
Seismotoad
Slowbro
Slowbro (Mega)
Slowking
Starmie
Suicune
Sylveon
Talonflame
Tangrowth
Tentacruel
Thundurus
Thundurus (Therian)
Togekiss
Tornadus (Therian)
Venusaur (Mega)
Volcanion
Whimsicott
Zapdos

Tier III: Flickering Sparks
These Pokemon were previously anywhere from viable to nonviable, but they either lost something major in the transition or they have a possible new niche that can really only be revealed with testing. In general, this category consists of Pokemon that represent "gimmicks" that either require some sort of special support or have a potential niche that is fairly narrow. They're not necessarily bad -- they're level of effectiveness is just more uncertain. They could end up somewhere from D to B from true viability rankings, but they also may be unranked or even higher ranked depending on testing.

Arcanine
Altaria (Mega)
Breloom
Bronzong
Cobalion
Diancie (Mega)
Diggersby
Ferrothorn
Garchomp
Glalie (Mega)
Gliscor
Goodra
Hariyama
Hippowdon
Jirachi
Jolteon
Landorus (Therian)
Lopunny (Mega)
Luxray
Machamap
Mandibuzz
Mantine
Mew
Pinsir (Mega)
Pyroar
Quagsire
Raticate
Roserade
Sableye (Mega)
Scoliopede
Sigilyph
Skarmory
Throh
Toxicroak
Tyranitar

Tier IV: Extinguished
These Pokemon were previously viable in OU, but they are negatively affected by the mechanics of the OM to the point where they're probably no longer useful. In addition, previously banned Pokemon which are no longer useful would go here. In general, this category consists of Pokemon somewhere on this list whose ranking would either be much much lower (- 5 to 6 subranks) or it would be unranked entirely if we had true viability rankings.

Aerodactyl (Mega)
Aggron (Mega)
Azumarill
Beedrill (Mega)
Bisharp
Chesnaught
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Exadrill
Feraligatr
Gallade (Mega)
Garchomp (Mega)
Gyarados
Gyarados (Mega)
Hawlucha
Heracross (Mega)
Kabutops
Kyurem (Black)
Lucario
Mamoswine
Mawile (Mega)
Medicham (Mega)
Metagross
Metagross (Mega)
Rhyperior
Sableye
Sharpedo (Mega)
Scizor
Scizor (Mega)
Shedinja
Staraptor
Swampert (Mega)
Terrakion
Tyranitar (Mega)
Tyrantrum
Weavile
Zygarde

Buff Analysis
Ghoul King has used this to decent effect, but there are better Guts users. Admittedly, Raticate is one of the only legitimate Pursuit users in this meta, so it has that niche.
Very strong, but faces competition from Conkeldurr (although you have Close Combat, while Conk can only use Superpower). Of the pure Fighting type Guts users, Machamp is actually the fastest, so it can pull off a better Scarf set but...
Amazing. Scarf sets just wreck house, and you even have the options of running SD or Band. While you don't have the highest Attack, 125 is still great and your secondary STAB and above average Speed for a Guts 'mon make up for that small downside. I feel confident in saying Heracross is one of the best picks in the meta.
In terms of sheer power, Guts Ursaring is hard to beat, as you can boost your Facade damage through 1) burn amplifier, 2) Guts amplifier and 3) a damage item like Band or Silk Scarf. You can even go for SD!
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 255-301 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
gvmgvm40 did a post on this so I won't go into too much detail, but Swellow is by far the fastest Guts user and honestly one of the fast viable Pokemon in the meta. You're one of the best remaining U-turn users, and probably the best Pursuit user. I'd opt for Jolly Band over Adamant (outspeed Alakazam, etc.), though.
Aside from Fake Out (which also stalls out a burn turn for yourself), Machamp and Conkeldurr do everything you want to do better. You're a bit bulkier, but you lose out on Attack and Speed.
Ridiculously powerful. Adamant Band Mach Punch is great for revenge killing, and any Ghost switching in will have to worry about Knock Off. You also have pretty decent bulk and run Drain Punch to recover off
Eh? If you want to use this thing, I guess Circle Throw is the way to go. You're all-around pretty damn bulky, so a Tank phazing set doesn't sound awful, but for pure offense, there are better options.
Cruel, cruel fate.
Potentially kind of neat! Electric is an uncommon type for physical attackers anyway, but in this meta, you're basically one of a kind. You also have Volt Switch, which doesn't get boosted by Guts, but is a cool pivot move regardless.
Base 45 Speed is awful, and because your Attack is still halved, there's really no point.
More limited than the Guts set, as only Facade will do real damage, but you'll be able to outspeed a lot more. Worth considering if you need a fast Normal type physical attacker.
Worthless first-route trash.
The only special attacker to get this ability. 130 Speed is so fast that it seems pointless to even bother with Quick Feet, but you can now run more bulk along with a Modest nature, both out-bulking and out-damaging Raikou, your greatest competition in standard.
Worthless first-route trash with STAB Facade (that's worse than pretty much every Facade user)
Even with drastically lowered expectations, Seaking falls short. There are stronger, faster and bulkier users of this ability.
As a special attacker, the burn didn't especially bother you to begin with. Not worth using unless you really don't want to take passive damage with a better Water type like Keldeo.
Pretty neat as a tank despite your lack of recovery, as 65/70/140 defensive stats are pretty good with investment. Best of all, you're a rare burn-less Defog user!
One of the last Pokemon that benefits from boosting Speed + Attack remaining. Shame you can't pass the boosts, but even on your own, you can do solid damage after a Shell Smash.
Pretty fast and decently powerful, Floatzel benefits a lot from lowered expectations. You can also use Aqua Ring to troll your opponents behind a Substitute (shout out to DTC).
Defog and U-turn are cool, but your low stats aren't. Look elsewhere.
About 15% of this thread is Drifblim hype, so you've no doubt already heard the potential havoc you can unleash with Hex and Flare Boost. Essentially, Drifblim is the Hoopa-U of the meta -- middling Speed at base 80, but if you can get it in safely, few things can avoid being 2HKOd or OHKOd.
Constantly outclassed by other Water types, you now have the advantage of serious mixed bulk thanks to Marvel Scale. Thanks to your Water typing, you can check a lot of physical Fire attackers like Zard X, phazing them out or hitting them with a decently-powerful Surf or Hydro Pump.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 157-186 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
Hell yeah! Zard X was already one of the most fearsome physical sweepers in standard, but now he faces much less competition and doesn't even take passive damage like pretty much all the other physical attackers.
Still as good as ever, and your sun can even benefit other Fire types on the team.
Outclassed. Groudon and Zard Y are both better sun setters with much higher stats. You non-STAB Hex, I guess?
Pretty cool as a tank -- Intimidate and Flash Fire are both useful here, plus you're a rare defensive Pokemon that 1) has recovery and 2) doesn't take damage from burn. You also have offensive pressure thanks to Flare Blitz and Extreme Speed, but you're outclassed in pure offensive roles.
Outclassed by Arcanine and Entei.
Despite your high Attack, low Speed and a small movepool hold you back.
Generally outclassed by Zard Y, but Hurricane sets you a part a bit.
Powerful, but outclassed by other special attackers.
Maybe viable. You have Recover, good Defense and Stealth Rock, plus Scald's decreased effectiveness makes Water attacks slightly less common. Low stats and bad typing are still bummers, though.
Very powerful in the sun, and generally pairs well with Groudon. You're also a great offensive check to Drifblim, who fears your STAB and has to predict you with a SE Hidden Power in order to do any damage.
You're the most powerful Extreme Speed user in the meta, and you can safely ditch Sacred Fire for Flare Blitz. Solid offensive Fire type overall.
Pretty cool as an offensive tank with Stealth Rock, or a straight up nuke under Trick Room.
Rapid Spin is nice...otherwise, don't bother.
Has a ton of sets, and faces less competition for using them in this meta. Fake Out and Stealth Rock have great utility, you have powerful attacks like Close Combat and Overheat and you can even run a bulky set with Slack Off.
Faces a lot of competition, and doesn't do anything unique.
Solid defensive Pokemon that gets a leg up on Rotom-W by not taking passive damage, making it a longer-lasting pivot.
Even better than it is in OU. Stealth Rock, Roar, Steel typing, Flash Fire and good stats are all great benefits, and you still have the option of clutch offensive sets. One of the better users of Protect, as well.
Highly versatile attacker, and the only usable physical Psychic. V-create or Blue Flare both put in a lot of work, and can be further boosted by sun.
Faces competition from both Fire and (Guts) Fighting types, but as a wallbreaker, its Flare Blitzes are nearly unmatched.
Nah.
Very powerful, and does well with both Scarf and Life Orb. U-turn gives it a niche over other physical attackers, and in general, it has one of the highest damage potentials.
Amazing. Hex is boosted on most targets thanks to burn, and Flash Fire checks other Fire types. Chandelure is very anti-meta and serves a top special attacker pick.
Sucker Punch + Flash Fire, I guess? Don't use it.
Like always, you'll want to keep Rocks off the field, but if you can Volcarona has more longevity than most special sweepers thanks to the lack of burn. Set up a Quiver Dance or two and you'll be hard to stop, especially since the only Aqua Jet you'll fear is Floatzel's.
It's alright, but Alakazam outclasses it as a no-burn damage Psychic, and there are better Fire types.
Already top tier, and now you're one of the only priority users around. While WoW sets are obviously useless, SD and Band are better than ever.
Not worth it.
Unreleased but promising.
Sets itself apart from Drifblim and Chandelure with much higher Speed, but misses out on a lot of power and longevity. Still worth using, but has more competition as an offensive Ghost.
Modest Specs Hex is in the same damage bracket at +2 Modest Xerneas Moonblast. Enough said.
As a check to -ate/Scrappy + Facade thanks to Mummy, Cofagrigus is worth using in general, but base 95 is rather good for a defensive Pokemon and you even get Nasty Plot, so you have the option to dish out some damage as well.
Already discussed, still solid.
Aerilate Facade is pretty scary, especially after an SD. You definitely miss Quick Attack doing damage, though.
As one of the last remaining viable DD users, Altaria mostly stuck to its Fairy STAB to begin with, so the damage boost of Facade over Return is appreciated. DD/Roost/Facade/Fire Blast is a pretty solid set, though Fire types give you trouble. Few can damage you back, however.
Spikes + Facade is pretty good as a suicide lead, though you can't really touch Fire types.
Lopunny lost a lot of versatility in this meta, but Scrappy Facade makes up for some of that. Thanks to Scrappy, you really don't need other attacks anyway, so fill your slots with stuff like Healing Wish and Encore.
Huge Power and a STAB 140 bp move? Oh dear. Diggersby is held back by its loss of priority and coverage, but like Glalie it can pull off a decent Spikes set as well as Scarf/Band sets that mostly just click Facade or U-turn.
Curse Lax appreciates the boost in power, although it drops back to 70 while asleep.
Maybe a stretch but I can see Miltank being decent as a defensive Pokemon with some offensive pressure. Stealth Rock + Milk Drink allow you to keep up with Chansey, while you trade bulk for Attack and Speed.
Mama is back. Parental Bond Facade is one of the strongest moves in the game, and while you certainly miss doing damage with your coverage and priority moves, just slotting Facade onto a set with stuff like Seismic Toss and Wish will still make you a force to be reckoned with.
 
Last edited:

canno

formerly The Reptile
Chansey / Blissey looks really good in this meta, as most physical attackers are blazed and they can wall a lot of the meta. You can get around them though with things like Conkeldurr and Heracross, and they don't appreciate the constant burn (although, given the option, they would take Burn over Toxic any day even though they can heal. Interestingly though, they can heal off the burn every time they switch, thus avoiding one turn of burn damage. Is it worth it, or should they stick to Serene Grace shenanigans?), but I still see them being great mons.

also the fact this isn't called 420mons is a shame
 
I really like the idea of this so I tried to make a Hyper Offense team for it but then it turned into this...
SCREW YOUR BURN (Alakazam) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

BandScarf (Heracross) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Earthquake
- Facade

X Sucks (Charizard) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Focus Blast

I'M VIABLE! (Huntail) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shell Smash
- Baton Pass
- Scald
- Ice Beam

best wall 10/10 (Landorus-Therian) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Clerffffff (Clefable) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Moonlight
- Thunder Wave
- Psyshock
- Moonblast


Interesting meta though I really like how you can run things like Heracross. Both it's banded and scarfed sets were pretty damn good (well, at least in UU), so considering there will be a lot less Phsyical walls, this thing has the potential to do a ton of work.

Magic Guard sash users like Alakazam look like they'll be really nice to have as well, or sashed fire types.

The Landorus set probably sucks but yay for special lando-t \o/
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
Screw Coverage (Pinsir) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Swords Dance
- ???
- ???

sounds fun to me.

I'll try to find some other interesting threats soon.
 
You know, Façade seems to me like an interesting idea in general, but it only limits attackers to one type. Not such a problem for -ate users like Mega Pinsir and Mega Glalie, but definitely so for Normal-types. Speaking of Mega Glalie...
->

Glalie @ Glalitite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Spikes
- Taunt
- filler

Being limited to Façade on the physical side, Glalie can use its other slots for utility moves in Spikes and Taunt. The filler slot can be dedicated to Protect (to gain its Mega's speed without worry) or a special move like Freeze-Dry. In fact, if it wanted to, it could go fully special, what with its offensive stats being equivalent and all. Unfortunately, on the special side, it pretty much requires Hidden Power for coverage (unless Water Pulse is enough).

Dragon Dance Mega Altaria is also a neat user of Façade, being able to use Dragon Dance and Roost to its advantage, but the question is: what would its fourth move be? Draco Meteor, maybe?

Hey, I almost forgot about Mega Lopunny.
->

Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Cute Charm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Encore
- Baton Pass
- Healing Wish

With Scrappy, Mega Lopunny does not have to worry about Ghost-types ruining its day, although being limited to Façade, it does not handle Rock- or Steel-types as well as it could before. Fortunately, being limited to one move also gives it the benefit of dedicating its other move slots to options that it would not normally run as a Mega, such as the ones listed. Encore is mostly for setup moves now that status spreading is dead, Baton Pass is for momentum, and Healing Wish is there as a last-ditch effort to revitalize a wall if necessary. Any of these moves can be replaced with Fake Out or Protect in order to go Mega without having to worry about base 105-134 Speed mons.

Also, Shedinja is next to useless in this meta.
 
Thanks for the early support! Hopefully someone will code this soon -- unlike my other projects, this one is very simple mechanically.

One move I didn't consider until now was Hex. Off the top of my head I can think of at least three good abusers of it:


With Flare Boost and STAB 130 bp Hex, this blimp actually does an impressive amount of damage. Seriously, what the hell is this:

252+ SpA Life Orb Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 352-417 (87.1 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 361-426 (89.3 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

It can also run Calm Mind to further boost its balloon murder spree, although it's too slow to pull off a sweep. Maybe with Tailwind or Trick Room?


Mummy is actually a very good ability in this metagame. It allows Cofagrigus to counter -ate users and Mega Lopunny by making them unable to hit Ghost types after landing one Facade. It also has Pain Split for recovery and Nasty Plot for boosting, allowing boosted Hex to hit harder.


Chandelure is immune to burn and has a very solid typing. Most Guts users can't touch it outside of Earthquake (I FORGOT DARK TYPE MOVES EXISTED), and buffed Fire types will see their main STAB blocked by Flash Fire. It also has one of the highest Special Attack stats in the game, meaning Hex is a massive threat.

Also I'm half-joking joking with this last set...only Random Battlers will get this one.


RANDBATS GOD (Sigilyph) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Stored Power
- Roost
- Charge Beam/Whirlwind

There's no point in running Psycho Shift anymore, which opens up more options. Leftovers makes you even harder to kill now that you don't need Flame Orb.

God help us.
 
Last edited:
Also I'm half-joking joking with this last set...only Random Battlers will get this one.


RANDBATS GOD (Sigilyph) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Stored Power
- Roost
- Charge Beam/Whirlwind

There's no point in running Psycho Shift anymore, which opens up more options. Leftovers makes you even harder to kill now that you don't need Flame Orb.

God help us.
hahaha! My friend once got sigilyph in a random battle with me, all she did was spam stored power without setting up!
 
Chansey / Blissey looks really good in this meta, as most physical attackers are blazed and they can wall a lot of the meta. You can get around them though with things like Conkeldurr and Heracross, and they don't appreciate the constant burn (although, given the option, they would take Burn over Toxic any day even though they can heal. Interestingly though, they can heal off the burn every time they switch, thus avoiding one turn of burn damage. Is it worth it, or should they stick to Serene Grace shenanigans?), but I still see them being great mons.

also the fact this isn't called 420mons is a shame
Smoke Weedle Every time-that-Dialga-wakes-up.
 
I'd be funny if everythign had a status... Taunt, Encore, Will-o-wisp, para. sleep, freeze ect at the end of the turn... and a small chance of the final turn of Perish song >:D It could also be rotating.
 
Banded Talonflame destroys every Guts user not named Scarfed Luxray (which is only a check) as well as Drifblim, and its typing lets it run physical attacks. I think it'll be valuable here.

I'd be funny if everythign had a status... Taunt, Encore, Will-o-wisp, para. sleep, freeze ect at the end of the turn... and a small chance of the final turn of Perish song >:D It could also be rotating.
Honestly, that just sounds borderline unplayable, and considering how many of those things have random effects, not particularly interesting from a competitive standpoint. The meta is fine the way it is.
 
I feel like hazards and screens are gonna be really popular because of the chip damage and there will be at least 1-2 fire types every team, and 3ohkoes turn into 2ohkoes so screen will help alot. Heres a set that might be popular:


Espeon @ Light Clay
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Psyshock
- Wish

Prevents hazards and puts up screens. Also can pass a wish incase a mon is low on health and i this metagame health is gonna go down real fast. Overall a pretty good support mon that will be pretty useful.
 

With Flare Boost and STAB 130 bp Hex, this blimp actually does an impressive amount of damage.
Ohmygod a meta in which Drfiblim is actually awesome. I loved the heck out of this thing in Gen IV, and was sorely disappointed when I realized it was just too weak. Awesome.



Chandelure is immune to burn and has a very solid typing. Most Guts users can't touch it outside of Earthquake, and buffed Fire types will see their main STAB blocked by Flash Fire. It also has one of the highest Special Attack stats in the game, meaning Hex is a massive threat.
Luxray, Swellow, Ursaring, Flareon, and Raticate are the only fully evolved Guts Pokemon that lack Knock Off. Contrast this against Conkeldurr, Machamp (holy crap only just now discovered ORAS gave it Knock Off need to go tweak teams), Hariyama, Heracross, and Throh. And Flareon can't be Burned. Ursaring and Luxray are honestly the only vaguely viable Guts abusers that lack Knock Off, and both of them get Crunch anyway. And Raticate gets Sucker Punch, so your Scarfed Chandelure is still taking damage.

So uh no. Chandelure is good, but it's not an anti-Guts Pokemon.

And a meta in which Hex is actually good is pretty cool. Ghost offense is pretty terrifying all of a sudden, and Ghosts are popular with meh BP in Standard.

I quite like how this is one simple change with surprisingly wide ramifications, in spite of doing nothing "weird" like Stat Switch.
 
After thinking on it a while, I've decided to unban some traditionally physical Pokemon that pose a much lower threat in this metagame. Obviously this OM hasn't been coded yet, so you still have time to convince me to keep some of these in Ubers.

Mawilite: No brainer. Nobody likes a burned Mawile, so there's really no point in this being banned.

Kangaskhanite: A little harder here. On one hand, 140 BP FACADE OH JESUS. But on the other hand...no Sucker Punch, no Earthquake, Power-up Punch literally just becomes Sword's Dance, etc. Mega-Mom will still be usable, even good. But not broken -- there are plenty of ways to deal with her. She's just a mono-attacking, Normal nuke. In that case, why not just use Ursaring?

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 333-393 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 343-405 (84.9 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Genesect: Two things here: the first is that Genesect's more-popular physical sets that it used when it was OU legal are significantly worse. U-turn does pathetic damage, especially without the correct Download boost, and Iron Head is worthless as well. This will leave Genesect reliant on it's Special side, which despite being very good, is likely not ban-worthy. Second thing: Fire types should be a lot more popular in this metagame. Not only do they all one-shot Genesect, it doesn't really have anything to hit the with. Douse Drive Technoblast? Guess that means no Scarf, so you just get outsped and roasted. This thing stayed in OU for quite a while this gen, so I think the nerfed version should be tolerable.

Q: Why not unban Salamencite? Megamence is physical too!
A: +1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 150-177 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
DON'T FUCK WITH AERILATE

I'm also considering two others. Let me know what you think, but they'll probably stay banned.

Greninja: Seems odd, considering Greninja was banned for being a dangerous special attacker, but hear me out. Gren only got suspected in ORAS, after it got move tutors to get past its counters. Which move tutors? Gunk Shot and Low Kick -- physical moves. Smog Frog will now struggle to get past Clefable and Azumaril (lol who would use Azumaril in this meta), making the "it can't be countered" argument a little less valid. Life Orb is also a worse item now, as Greninja is losing about a quarter of it's health each turn. Still, this thing was S rank before ORAS, so probably best it stays banned.

Zekrom: If it had a lower Special Attack than 120 this would be an easy choice. Would a special set with a random Facade thrown in to get past Chansey be too much? I honestly have no experience with Zekrom, so fill me in. I know Monotype was discussing unbanning it.
 
Last edited:
Mega Kangaskhan: I'm interested in seeing it unbanned. The big thing I think is that the choice between Power Up Punch or Drain Punch is considerably more painful -if you don't have Drain Punch, you need Wish support to not die in 9 turns or less. If you don't have Power Up Punch, you can't mitigate the Burn drop on your non-Facade moves. If you're running both, now something can wall you easily.

Mega Salamence: About the only thing that would suffer is its Earthquakes, which just encourages it to run something like Facade/Fire Blast/Roost/Dragon dance, and still murder almost everything. So yeah no unban.

Genesect: It got Shift Gear recently, but that just highlights how much this meta hurts it. Sounds good to me.

Greninja: Being stuck, realistically speaking, running all-Special sets puts it at its XY level of utility, more or less -and I saw good players who felt Greninja was heavily overrated by the majority of ladder players, so I can believe it would be manageable.

Zekrom: Its Special coverage is excellent and it still has More Stats Than You. And it gets Roost to mitigate Burn damage. I'm not seeing it.

Regular Groudon: Probably still too good, but I can dream. (Primal Groudon is an obvious "no")

Mega Lucario: They're all going to be Special sets, which hurts both their raw firepower and especially their unpredictability factor. Could be worth unbanning.

Rayquaza/Mega Rayquaza: My understanding is that it's the Physical sets that are the problem (And with it getting V-Create I can believe it), though Mega Rayquaza is also a Mega with an item slot so even if it's plausible to drop Rayquaza down (Iffy, given Draco Meteor off 150 Special Attack) Mega Rayquaza would almost certainly just be dumb.

Aegislash: Go Special or go home. The big argument for banning Aegislash was the fact that it's unpredictable and highly lethal -here its lack of recovery is torture, its need to King's Shield is torture, and running a Physical set is brain-damaged. It doesn't even get Hex! I'd like to see it unbanned too.

Everything else: Special-oriented or at least sufficiently Special-competent that it's dumb, and/or immune to Burn. (Yeah, let's unban Mega Blaziken, this is a good plan! Wait no it's immune)
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
I disagree completely with M-Kanga unban. Remember guys, it still has Seismic Toss, making it far better than Ursaring (it can actually touch Rock- and Steel-types by doing iirc 150 or 200 damage - forgot which but both are still insane.) while having the nuke power of PB Facade. It's also faster than Ursaring (no one is using Quick Feet Ursaring) and much bulkier. It's not even 100% walled by Ghosties, as it can opt to not Megavolve and hit them up with a Scrappy Facade, which does a lot of work vs slower and more frail ghosts. An example is Chandelure
252 Atk Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 202-238 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
and if its scarf it doesn't KO back and gets popped on the switch.

Admittingly it still has problems with bulkier ghosts, but it can still do a chunk off them - Cofag is a really good answer to it.

252 Atk Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 102-121 (31.9 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252 Atk Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Cofagrigus: 133-157 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage (cant get it because Mummy)

Dusclops does well vs it too, but it doesn't like the residual damage

252 Atk Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 75-88 (26.4 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

So yea, bulky ghosties can beat it but the frails ones get popped by Scrappy Facade (which was another reason why it was banana'd in the first place). At the very least it's a better Ursaring due to its better bulk, more speed, and ability to hit ghosts before mega with Scrappy. The only thing Ursaring has over it is raw power, which would be enough except even frail Ghost-types wall it let alone the bulky ones so its not like its going to rip apart stall anytime soon. I'm dumb and forgot Guts prevents Burn drops completely, so Crunch would still rip shit apart. I still think Kanga is better than Ursaring but Ursaring can wallbreak much better. A set of Wish | Protect / Power-Up Punch | Seismic Toss | Facade looks potent.

So please don't unban this thing. :<
 
Last edited:
Greninja: Being stuck, realistically speaking, running all-Special sets puts it at its XY level of utility, more or less -and I saw good players who felt Greninja was heavily overrated by the majority of ladder players, so I can believe it would be manageable.
Fair enough. Greninja is unbanned until someone convinces me otherwise.

Regular Groudon: Probably still too good, but I can dream. (Primal Groudon is an obvious "no")
I considered Groudon...not sure. It gives newly buffed Fire types a reliable Sun-setter that is very bulky, has a good typing, can set up Stealth Rock, and actually has a usable Special set (it has 19 more Special Attack than Nintetales). Earth Power, Fire Blast/Eruption and Solar Beam give plenty of coverage, allowing an extra slot for utility. I'm not convinced. Anyone else have thoughts on Burned Groudon?

Rayquaza/Mega Rayquaza: My understanding is that it's the Physical sets that are the problem (And with it getting V-Create I can believe it), though Mega Rayquaza is also a Mega with an item slot so even if it's plausible to drop Rayquaza down (Iffy, given Draco Meteor off 150 Special Attack) Mega Rayquaza would almost certainly just be dumb.
Absolutely not. If Zekrom stays banned, so does this monster. Even if its physical sets are better, it has a great special movepool and the monstrous Special Attack to back it up. When freaking Latios feels inadequate while dropping a Draco Meteor, you know something is wrong.

Mega Lucario: They're all going to be Special sets, which hurts both their raw firepower and especially their unpredictability factor. Could be worth unbanning.
This seems like a bad idea, considering Nasty Plot was considered the best set on Mega Luc. Now you know it will be Special, but considering how early in XY Lucarionite was banned, I don't think its unpredictability was the main issue.

Aegislash: Go Special or go home. The big argument for banning Aegislash was the fact that it's unpredictable and highly lethal -here its lack of recovery is torture, its need to King's Shield is torture, and running a Physical set is brain-damaged. It doesn't even get Hex! I'd like to see it unbanned too.
This is actually a good point -- you've basically got to run HP Fighting for coverage, and you don't have priority. King's Shield is...really bad, honestly, given the Burn damage and relative lack of physical moves that will actually hit it. I didn't know it lacked Hex...huh. Aegislash may be outclassed by Drifblim in this metagame. I never thought I'd say that. Aegislash is unbanned.

I disagree completely with M-Kanga unban. Remember guys, it still has Seismic Toss, making it far better than Ursaring (it can actually touch Rock- and Steel-types by doing iirc 150 or 200 damage - forgot which but both are still insane.) while having the nuke power of PB Facade. It's also faster than Ursaring (no one is using Quick Feet Ursaring) and much bulkier. It's not even 100% walled by Ghosties, as it can opt to not Megavolve and hit them up with a Scrappy Facade, which does a lot of work vs slower and more frail ghosts. An example is Chandelure
252 Atk Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 202-238 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
and if its scarf it doesn't KO back and gets popped on the switch.

Admittingly it still has problems with bulkier ghosts, but it can still do a chunk off them - Cofag is a really good answer to it.

252 Atk Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 102-121 (31.9 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252 Atk Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Cofagrigus: 133-157 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage (cant get it because Mummy)

Dusclops does well vs it too, but it doesn't like the residual damage

252 Atk Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 75-88 (26.4 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

So yea, bulky ghosties can beat it but the frails ones get popped by Scrappy Facade (which was another reason why it was banana'd in the first place). At the very least it's a better Ursaring due to its better bulk, more speed, and ability to hit ghosts before mega with Scrappy. The only thing Ursaring has over it is raw power, which would be enough except even frail Ghost-types wall it let alone the bulky ones so its not like its going to rip apart stall anytime soon. A set of Wish | Protect / Power-Up Punch | Seismic Toss | Facade looks potent.

So please don't unban this thing. :<
Hmm...you make some good points. Kangaskhanite is temporally banned again, but I'd like to see some more arguments on it -- it may be unbanned it the future, I really don't think it's completely unmanageable in this metagame. One thing you didn't bring up that is quite important is that without Sucker Punch, Kang is often outsped and killed. You also named legitimate counters to it, something that people struggled to find before its ban. Cofagrigus is no Rocky Helmet Garchomp, either -- it's actually a good 'mon in this meta that has uses outside countering one Pokemon.
 
I disagree completely with M-Kanga unban. Remember guys, it still has Seismic Toss, making it far better than Ursaring (it can actually touch Rock- and Steel-types by doing iirc 150 or 200 damage - forgot which but both are still insane.) while having the nuke power of PB Facade. It's also faster than Ursaring (no one is using Quick Feet Ursaring) and much bulkier.
OK yeah this is one meta where Parental Bond Seismic Toss is legitimately a big deal. (And it's 200 damage -Parental Bond only halves damage on the second hit from moves that give a crap about the standard damage formula) I agree with Jajoken that Sucker Punch being crippled is huge, and I also stand by my Power Up Punch/Drain Punch points, but yeah Mega Kangaskhan is, in particular, not as walled by Rock and Steel types as I'd been imagining.

This seems like a bad idea, considering Nasty Plot was considered the best set on Mega Luc. Now you know it will be Special, but considering how early in XY Lucarionite was banned, I don't think its unpredictability was the main issue.
I keep getting conflicting representations of the Mega Lucario issue, with some people focusing on Nasty Plot and others saying things like "just click Close Combat". My personal experience with Mega Lucario in several OMs suggests to me that it will be manageable -in particular keep in mind its only healing is Drain Punch which sucks when you're Burned and its bulk is not amazing- but powerful, rather than completely broken. Regardless, my understanding is that the unpredictability is the big issue with Mega Lucario, in the same way as Aegislash, except Mega Lucario is even more flexible (Aegislash has Swords Dance but no Special boosting while Lucario has both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, as a quick example) and due to the Adaptability boost+movepool considerations (Close Combat handily outperforms Shadow Claw and Iron Head on neutral targets) hits even harder, so they're both Pokemon you have to scout out in Standard and both Pokemon that the process of scouting out tends to result in problematic damage/outright KOs, but Mega Lucario is more extreme than Aegislash about both the flexibility and the punishing scouting attempts. (And so it got banned quicker)

Absolutely not. If Zekrom stays banned, so does this monster. Even if its physical sets are better, it has a great special movepool and the monstrous Special Attack to back it up. When freaking Latios feels inadequate while dropping a Draco Meteor, you know something is wrong.
No competent Flying STAB (Specially), but yeah, I figured.

I considered Groudon...not sure. It gives newly buffed Fire types a reliable Sun-setter that is very bulky, has a good typing, can set up Stealth Rock, and actually has a usable Special set (it has 19 more Special Attack than Nintetales). Earth Power, Fire Blast/Eruption and Solar Beam give plenty of coverage, allowing an extra slot for utility. I'm not convinced. Anyone else have thoughts on Burned Groudon?
Back in the day, on real carts, I had the misfortune to get a Groudon with +Special Attack -Attack for its Nature. After being depressed about it, I decided to make lemonade from lemons and went on to make a Special set for it and put it in Doubles on Battle Revolution and play some online matches. (This was primarily against Japanese players due to sleep issues+timezone weirdness, so I fought crazy stuff like Event Darkrai With Spacial Rend+Roar of Time)

It was really good. Not as good as Physical Groudon would've been, but it was still good. (And I was clear I was fighting players who were actually trying to make good teams and stuff -they weren't scrubs)

I honestly don't think unbanning it makes sense. I just wish it made sense because Groudon is awesome. :(

This is actually a good point -- you've basically got to run HP Fighting for coverage, and you don't have priority. King's Shield is...really bad, honestly, given the Burn damage and relative lack of physical moves that will actually hit it. I didn't know it lacked Hex...huh. Aegislash may be outclassed by Drifblim in this metagame. I never thought I'd say that. Aegislash is unbanned.
Huzzah!

And yeah I didn't know it lacked Hex myself -I went and checked it while writing the post just in case, and there it was, "Aegislash cannot learn Hex" and I was like "well dang, Aegislash is going to be crap".
 
I keep getting conflicting representations of the Mega Lucario issue, with some people focusing on Nasty Plot and others saying things like "just click Close Combat". My personal experience with Mega Lucario in several OMs suggests to me that it will be manageable -in particular keep in mind its only healing is Drain Punch which sucks when you're Burned and its bulk is not amazing- but powerful, rather than completely broken. Regardless, my understanding is that the unpredictability is the big issue with Mega Lucario, in the same way as Aegislash, except Mega Lucario is even more flexible (Aegislash has Swords Dance but no Special boosting while Lucario has both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, as a quick example) and due to the Adaptability boost+movepool considerations (Close Combat handily outperforms Shadow Claw and Iron Head on neutral targets) hits even harder, so they're both Pokemon you have to scout out in Standard and both Pokemon that the process of scouting out tends to result in problematic damage/outright KOs, but Mega Lucario is more extreme than Aegislash about both the flexibility and the punishing scouting attempts. (And so it got banned quicker)
I guess I'm open for it. Keep in mind that I've never played XY OU that seriously, but when I did, I was actually a little surprised Mega Lucario got banned so quickly. I guess my shitty Trick Room team just happened to have a good matchup versus is it. So I can see it unbanned...though I'm not going to make that call quite yet. I just don't know if its nerfed enough.

No competent Flying STAB (Specially), but yeah, I figured.
To be fair, it had no competent Flying STAB (Physically) before ORAS, but that didn't stop it from being permabanned.

I honestly don't think unbanning it makes sense. I just wish it made sense because Groudon is awesome. :(
I won't count it out entirely. I'll turn the ambiguous choices over for discussion:

Unban Suspects:

Kangaskhanite (-Priority, -Coverage, +Facade, Seismic Toss is still good, Scrappy is still good)
Lucarionite (-Physical sets, -Unpredictability, -Recovery, Special sets are still godlike)
Groudon (-Physical sets, +Awesome Sun setter in OU, Special sets are still good)
Zekrom (-Physical sets, +Facade to break special walls, Special sets are still good, has Roost)
 
Last edited:

canno

formerly The Reptile
This is the dumbest idea I've had but I don't give a fuck

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Facade
- Shadow Ball
- Seismic Toss
- Wish

The mixed Kanga is real

252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cofagrigus: 153-183 (47.8 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Cofagrigus: 114-135 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
Keep in mind though that specially defensive has slight problems with physical if it hits it with a scrappy facade
252 Atk Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 102-121 (31.9 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage

252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 87-105 (30.6 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
4 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 364-429 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

Facade is still hitting pretty hard despite the lack of investment. Also remember that anything that doesn't hit over 400 HP and isn't immune to Seismic Toss gets 2HKO'd.

You can also probably slip in another special move in there, considering this things special movepool is insane. Obviously probably not the best set, and it's not unbeatable. Cofag, while it can get worn down, can still beat it to an extent. Sableye also completely shits on it if it already Mega'd, and can handle low powered Facade. If however rocks are up and you're not running Mega Sableye for some reason

4 Atk Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 126-148 (41.4 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 72-85 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

So yea mixed kanga lgi
 

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
config/formats.js
Code:
    {
        name: "Burning 'Mon",
        section: "Other Metagames",
 
        ruleset: ['Pokemon', 'Standard', 'Team Preview'],
        banlist: ['Mewtwo', 'Lugia', 'Ho-Oh', 'Blaziken', 'Kyogre', 'Groudon', 'Rayquaza', 'Deoxys', 'Deoxys-Attack', 'Deoxys-Defense', 'Deoxys-Speed', 'Dialga', 'Palkia', 'Giratina', 'Girainta-Origin', 'Darkrai', 'Shaymin-Sky', 'Arceus', 'Reshiram', 'Zekrom', 'Kyurem-White', 'Aegislash', 'Xerneas', 'Yveltal', 'Soul Dew', 'Gengarite', 'Kangaskhanite', 'Lucarionite', 'Salamencite'],
        onBegin: function () {
            this.add('-message', "Hah! You better have BURN HEAL!"); //This message was optional before I decided that you should have it for the full experience
            for (var i = 0; i < this.p1.pokemon.length; i++) {
                if (this.p1.pokemon[i].runImmunity('brn')) {
                    this.p1.pokemon[i].status = 'brn';
                }
            }
            for (var j = 0; j < this.p2.pokemon.length; j++) {
                if (this.p2.pokemon[j].runImmunity('brn')) {
                    this.p2.pokemon[j].status = 'brn';
                }
            }
        },
        onResidualOrder: 999, //This will always occur as the last possible occurence of the turn's residual phase.
        onResidual: function () {
            this.p1.pokemon[0].trySetStatus('brn');
            this.p2.pokemon[0].trySetStatus('brn');
            //Trust me I tried pokemon.trySetStatus it doesn't work ;_;
        }
    },
Time to wait a bit before Snaquaza says "This is now implemented on Aqua! Tagging important people: " or something
 
Last edited:
This is the dumbest idea I've had but I don't give a fuck

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Facade
- Shadow Ball
- Seismic Toss
- Wish

The mixed Kanga is real

252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cofagrigus: 153-183 (47.8 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Cofagrigus: 114-135 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
Keep in mind though that specially defensive has slight problems with physical if it hits it with a scrappy facade
252 Atk Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 102-121 (31.9 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage

252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 87-105 (30.6 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
4 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 364-429 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

Facade is still hitting pretty hard despite the lack of investment. Also remember that anything that doesn't hit over 400 HP and isn't immune to Seismic Toss gets 2HKO'd.

You can also probably slip in another special move in there, considering this things special movepool is insane. Obviously probably not the best set, and it's not unbeatable. Cofag, while it can get worn down, can still beat it to an extent. Sableye also completely shits on it if it already Mega'd, and can handle low powered Facade. If however rocks are up and you're not running Mega Sableye for some reason

4 Atk Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 126-148 (41.4 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 72-85 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

So yea mixed kanga lgi
I think I should unban Kangaskhanite just to see if this works haha.
config/formats.js
Code:
    {
        name: "Burning 'Mon",
        section: "Other Metagames",

        ruleset: ['Pokemon', 'Standard', 'Team Preview'],
        banlist: ['Mewtwo', 'Lugia', 'Ho-Oh', 'Blaziken', 'Kyogre', 'Groudon', 'Rayquaza', 'Deoxys', 'Deoxys-Attack', 'Deoxys-Defense', 'Deoxys-Speed', 'Dialga', 'Palkia', 'Giratina', 'Girainta-Origin', 'Darkrai', 'Shaymin-Sky', 'Arceus', 'Reshiram', 'Zekrom', 'Kyurem-White', 'Aegislash', 'Xerneas', 'Yveltal', 'Soul Dew', 'Gengarite', 'Kangaskhanite', 'Lucarionite', 'Salamencite'],
        onBegin: function () {
            this.add('-message', "Hah! You better have BURN HEAL!"); //This message is optional. Feel free to get rid of it if you don't want it.
            for (var i = 0; i < this.p1.pokemon.length; i++) {
                if (this.p1.pokemon[i].runImmunity('brn')) {
                    this.p1.pokemon[i].status = 'brn';
                }
            }
            for (var j = 0; j < this.p2.pokemon.length; j++) {
                if (this.p2.pokemon[j].runImmunity('brn')) {
                    this.p2.pokemon[j].status = 'brn';
                }
            }
        },
        onResidualOrder: 999, //This will always occur as the last possible occurence of the turn's residual phase.
        onResidual: function () {
            this.p1.pokemon[0].trySetStatus('brn');
            this.p2.pokemon[0].trySetStatus('brn');
            //Trust me I tried pokemon.trySetStatus it doesn't work ;_;
        }
    },
Time to wait a bit before Snaquaza says "This is now implemented on Aqua! Tagging important people: " or something
Thanks man! Time to start the Snaquaza countdown.

As a side note, I'd like to make an argument for unbanning Zekrom, based on a Pokemon that is very close to it (or rather, contains it) and OU-legal: Kyurem-B.

Here are their stats:

Zekrom: 100/150/120/120/100/90
Kyurem-B: 125/170/100/120/90/95

Let's just ignore Attack here: Kyurem has more HP but less Defense and Special Defense. What does this actually equal out to?

0 SpA Mew Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 118-139 (30.1 - 35.5%) -- 30.2% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Mew Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 108-128 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Mew Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 108-128 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Mew Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 92-109 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Zekrom is slightly bulkier on both sides. However, the difference is <2%, and thus, not entirely relevant.

For offensive stats, they share a Special Attack stat. However, Kyurem has the edge in Speed, although the speed tier is basically the same.

What about movepool? Both have Roost, a reliable 90 bp STAB special move, Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse, and Earth Power. Zekrom has Volt Switch, which is a nice tool, though nothing is immune to Ice Beam, which is a flaw with Electric types.

Type-wise, Zekrom clearly has the edge, not being Stealth Rock weak and having two resistances from the secondary type, while Kyurem has one. It is worth noting that this makes it neutral to Dragon Ice types, giving it the advantage over Zekrom in that respect, though it doesn't make up for weaknesses to Rock, Steel and Fighting and neutrality to Fire.

So by these comparisons, Zekrom comes out with a slight lead, but I'd say they're comparable in usability. Kyurem-B is B+ on the viability thread, so Zekrom should be a few ranks higher, in the mid to low A range. Wait...wasn't this thing banned?

We're forgetting something, we're comparing special Kyurem-B to special Zekrom. Kyurem is only B+ because of its mixed and physical sets, while still escaping being Uber because of lack of physical STAB, typing, and subpar Speed. Full special Kyurem-B, while still a usable set, would rank much lower. Thus, despite some marginal improvements in typing and bulk, Zekrom would probably fail to be banned based on its special set alone. Hell, it's even slower than Kyurem, accentuating one of its problems. They both have to make due with STAB + Earth Power + Hidden Power for coverage, so neither has the edge in that regard. Volt Switch and lack of Stealth Rock weakness aside, special Zekrom would not be banworthy.

I've also brought up Facade as a way to get past special walls, banking on Zekrom's base 150 Attack. Well...

252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 247-291 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Adamant Max Attack Facade can't 2HKO without Stealth Rock. Then, you can't get a 10% chance. Keep in mind that you don't want that much Attack investment for a single move -- you want it in Speed and Special Attack for the rest of your movepool.

So I don't think Zekrom will be broken. It'll be a good Volt Switch user with Scarf or Specs, but it isn't as overpowerd as I first assumed.
 
Last edited:

canno

formerly The Reptile
Ice doesn't resist Dragon, js.

Also Zekrom should at the very least be suspected. Funnily I see it taking its throne in more defensive teams due to its key Fire resist and neutrality to Fighting. More importantly, it kind of reks Talonflame, something I see being a huge threat. I can see it running this


Zekrom @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Roost
- Haze / Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse / Earth Power

This thing is seriously bulky and can take on the Fire- and Guts mons. Pairs up with Chansey and a Ghostie very well on Stall. Gonna post some calcs. Keep in mind it can't handle all of the Gutsmons

252 Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zekrom: 124-147 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252 Atk Lopunny Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zekrom: 102-121 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zekrom: 136-160 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252+ Atk Guts Luxray Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zekrom: 140-166 (34.6 - 41%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zekrom: 105-125 (25.9 - 30.9%) -- 21.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zekrom: 126-150 (31.1 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zekrom: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252 SpA Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 120-142 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage (specs 2HKOs)


There's probably a better spread for this (to avoid getting 2HKO'd by Specs Keldeo Icy Wind) but yea bulky Zekrom stron
 
Last edited:
I've decided to unban Zekrom, Groudon, Kangaskhanite and Lucarionite. I figure it makes more sense to test if these Pokemon are broken than to get lost in theory. If they prove to be troublesome, re-banning them is very simple. Snaquaza, if you could use this code instead, that would be great.

config/formats.js
Code:
    {
        name: "Burning 'Mon",
        section: "Other Metagames",

        ruleset: ['Pokemon', 'Standard', 'Team Preview'],
        banlist: ['Mewtwo', 'Lugia', 'Ho-Oh', 'Blaziken', 'Kyogre', 'Rayquaza', 'Deoxys', 'Deoxys-Attack', 'Deoxys-Defense', 'Deoxys-Speed', 'Dialga', 'Palkia', 'Giratina', 'Girainta-Origin', 'Darkrai', 'Shaymin-Sky', 'Arceus', 'Reshiram', 'Kyurem-White', 'Xerneas', 'Yveltal', 'Soul Dew', 'Gengarite', 'Salamencite', 'Red Orb'],
        onBegin: function () {
            this.add('-message', "Hah! You better have BURN HEAL!"); //This message is optional. Feel free to get rid of it if you don't want it.
            for (var i = 0; i < this.p1.pokemon.length; i++) {
                if (this.p1.pokemon[i].runImmunity('brn')) {
                    this.p1.pokemon[i].status = 'brn';
                }
            }
            for (var j = 0; j < this.p2.pokemon.length; j++) {
                if (this.p2.pokemon[j].runImmunity('brn')) {
                    this.p2.pokemon[j].status = 'brn';
                }
            }
        },
        onResidualOrder: 999, //This will always occur as the last possible occurence of the turn's residual phase.
        onResidual: function () {
            this.p1.pokemon[0].trySetStatus('brn');
            this.p2.pokemon[0].trySetStatus('brn');
            //Trust me I tried pokemon.trySetStatus it doesn't work ;_;
        }
    },
EDIT: OH GOD I FORGOT TO BAN RED ORB THAT WAS ALMOST REALLY BAD
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top