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DPP Ubers But he works great in Ubers. (Uber RMT)

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Maniaclyrasist, Feb 11, 2008.

  1. Maniaclyrasist

    Maniaclyrasist custom user title of doom!!!
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    [​IMG]

    Dialga @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 240 HP/32 Spd/238 SAtk
    Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Aura Sphere
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Thunder
    ---

    Specs Dialga is way better than people give it credit for and is an excellent starter capable of OHKOing all of the common Uber starters which include opposing Dialga, Palkia, Scarf Kyogre, Lati@s and Groudon. The speed evs are enough to outspeed most base 90 speed pokemon who do not run any evs in speed.
    Draco Meteor is Dialga's hardest hitting move but because of the Special Attack drop it gives i've decided to replace the standard Fire Blast with Dragon Pulse for consistency. Fire is generally a bad attacking type in the Uber metagame due to a fair amount of pokemon resisting it and Thunder already 2HKOs most steels so not much of a problem in dropping Fire Blast as far as i can see.

    [​IMG]

    Lugia @ Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 208 HP/166 Def/136 Spd
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Reflect
    - Roost
    - Toxic
    - Ice Beam
    ---

    My Groudon and Rayquaza "counter" right here. The speed Evs alow it to outspeed Adamant Rayquaza as well as any neutral nature base 90 pokemon like Groudon and Kyogre. I initially thought about going with enough evs to outspeed Jolly Ray as it is the most common but it would force Lugia to sacrifice too much from its defences. The current ev spread takes 66-78% from a Jolly Rayquaza's Life Orbed Dragon Danced Outrage so it can still possibly survive even after Stealth Rock Damage and generally will always survive if it switches into Ray's DDance with Max Hp due to Leftovers recovery.
    Lugia also serves as my Normal Arceus counter as with Relect and Toxic it can outstall and beat Arceus before it is able to kill Lugia, even if Arceus attempts to Sword Dances 3 times. Pressure also benefits Lugia here as it eats up Arceus' Extremespeed and Groudon's Stone Edge pp.

    [​IMG]

    Palkia @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 36 Atk/222 Spd/252 SAtk
    Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - Spacial Rend
    - Surf
    - Thunder
    - Focus Punch
    ---

    Choice Scarf Palkia, my second answer to Rayquaza if Luga is taken out, it has enough speed to outpace Jolly Rayquaza after a Dragon Dance and can Spacial Rend it for the OHKO. It also serves as a great revenge killer for Scarf Ogre, Mewtwo and Darkrai who think they will outspeed it for the kill, Focus Punch does about 73-85% to Blissey who think they can wall it indefinitely so they also have to be wary when switching into this threat. Not much else to say

    [​IMG]

    Blissey (♀) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 70 HP/252 Def/188 SDef
    Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Softboiled
    - Toxic
    - Seismic Toss
    - Wish
    ---
    Best special wall in OU does it just as well in Ubers. Toxic is my main method of dealing damage and Seismic Toss serves as a consistent way of dealing damage. I previously had Ice Beam over Wish but given the nature of the team i decided using Wish on Blissey was definitely the way to go. Most would argue that Protect would be a better choice over Softboiled, but i'm more comfortable with Softboiled for instant recovery and its replacement is not debatable.

    [​IMG]

    Tyranitar (♀) @ Choice Band
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP/6 Def/252 SDef
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Crunch
    - Stone Edge
    - Pursuit
    - Earthquake
    ---

    Choice Band Tyranitar, a very uncommon but deadly threat in Ubers due to its ability to hit alot of Ubers against their lower Defensive stat. It also sets up Sandstorm for the last member of by team and for the most part eliminates his counters. Tar is my answer to Lati@s and to Choiced Mewtwos beating them with Crunch if they get any ideas of staying in and Pursuit if they had any ideas of switching. I'm still contemplating its Ev spread though and haven't decided yet if Careful would be a better choice over Adamant to take better advantage of the Sandstorm boost but i haven't run into any problems with it so far.

    [​IMG]

    Garchomp (♀) @ Choice Band
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Outrage
    - Stone Edge
    - Dragon Claw
    ---

    The star of the team It's.........**Garchomp**. Now for all those that think Garchomp is terrible in Ubers, I personally think you have never played Ubers before and will blatantly disregard your opnions and statements. Choice Band Garchomp is indeed a serious threat outspeeding more of the Uber metagame than you would expect. Darkrai, Mewtwo, Deoxys - A and the Latis are the only things that outspeed Garchomp in Ubers excluding Scarfed Pokemon and the Lati's actually tend to run less than 333 speed as their main opponent to outspeed is Palkia, Stone Edge is listed to possibly 2hko Lugia and Dragon Claw is listed over Fire Fang for picking off weaker targets if i dont want to lock myself into a Outrage or Cb Earthquake. Bronzong, Forry and Skarm arent all too common in Ubers so i see little reason to run a Fire move.

    Just to give you an idea of how powerful Garchomp can be in Ubers i've included the much loved damage calcs for some ubers below.

    CB Outrage on 252 Hp/32 Def (Standard Adamant Groudon) - 53-63% (Always a 2hko)

    CB Earthquake on 252 Hp/32 Def (Standard Adamant Groudon) - 45 - 52% (Possible 2HKO as most Groudon dont carry Leftovers)

    CB Outrage on 252 Hp/252 Def Bold Lugia - 43-50% (Won't ever 2hko due to lefties but note the ev spread on Lugia)

    CB Stone Edge on 252 Hp/252 Def Bold Lugia - 48-56% (Possible 2HKO).... With a crit 92-100% on the same Lugia (Possible OHKO)

    CB Outrage on 252 Hp/52 Def (Analysis Listed Lugia Evs) - 50-58% (A 2hko on Average and with any residual Damage Lugia loses)

    CB Stone Edge on 252 Hp/52 Def (Analysis Listed Lugia Evs) 55-65% (Always 2HKOs)...With a crit it will always OHKO this ev spread.

    Keep in mind Lugia does NOT OHKO Chomp with Ice Beam without 216 Evs in Special Attack with a Neutral nature and with that much Evs invested in Spatk it will always be 2HKOed by Outrage or Stone Edge.

    CB Earthquake on 252 Hp/252 Def Modest Kyogre - 52-61% (Always a 2hko unless it rolls min damage twice and Kyogre has leftovers)

    CB Outrage on 252 Hp/252 Def Modest Kyogre - 62 -73%
    (Always a 2hko)

    CB Earthquake on 6 Hp/ 4 Def Modest Kyogre - 74 -93%
    (Always a 2hko)

    CB Outrage on 6 Hp/0 Def Modest Kyogre - 95-100%
    (Possible OHKO)

    CB Outrage on 252 Hp/252 Def Bold Dialga - 48-56%
    (Possible 2HKO and since no Dialga is ever bothering to run this ev spread its safe to say Outrage will alwyas 2hko wile Earthquake being super effective will always OHKO.

    An these are the calcs for the bulkiest Uber pokemon (Deoxys-D is not listed as it takes Neutral hits even worse than Lugia).

    Uber Threat List

    Arceus
    Lugia helps against the Normal set and as for any other set i will deal with it when i see it.

    Darkrai

    I normally let Dialga take the sleep then beat it with either Blissey or Tyranitar.

    Deoxys - A
    No direct counter to this so i tend to have to rely on prediction or Revenge kill it with Palkia.

    Deoxys - D
    Tyranitar can 2hko any Ev spread, Lugia and Blissey have Toxic and Garchomp can 2hko.

    Dialga
    Another pokemon with no direct counter, Blissey can beats Specs sets, although Mix sets are always a problem Palkia can do a number with Spacial Rend and Garchomp can OHKO with Earthquake or 2HKO with Outrage

    Giratina
    Garchomp 2hkos as does Palkia, Dialga also OHKOs and it really isnt doing much to my team anyway, I'd just have to watch Will O Wisp and its residual Damage.

    Groudon
    Lugia is my counter for this with Roost depleting Stone Edges pp and Reflect to lessen damage even more while taking it out with Toxic and Ice Beam. Tyranitar also gets rid of Sunny Day if need be. Garchomp and Dialga also resist Stone Edge if i dont want to risk sending Lugia into it.

    Ho-oh
    Palkia and Lugia take this on just fine as Palkia quad resists Sacred Fire and isnt worried too much about the burn while Lugia can take any other move and destroy it with Reflect and Toxic

    Kyogre
    Palkia quad resists water while being faster and hitting it with a Super Effective Thunder, Blissey generally beats it with Toxic and Garchomp has the option of possibly OHKoing it with Outrage, Tyranitar will also offset rain teams with his Sandstorm.

    Latias
    Blissey takes this on just fine and Tar can either OhKO it with Pursuit on the switch or Crunch if it stays in. Palkia can also 2hko it with Spacial Rend. While Dialga will OHKO with Draco Meteor.

    Latios

    Read above post

    Lugia
    Dialga is a great counter here as it will 2hko with Thunder and isnt really damaged by any of Lugia's moves, Blissey and my Lugia can cripple it with Toxic and Tyranitar is always an ever present threat to it.

    Manaphy
    Dialga Ohkos with Thunder as does Palkia and they both resist Surf.

    Metagross
    Lugia can come in on it and set up Reflect and since Metagross in Ubers rarely carry Earthquake Dialga can come in on it everytime.

    Mew
    Garchomp and Palkia 2hko, Dialga can OHKO as can Tar, Blissey and Lugia are also pokemon that can Cripple it with Toxic.

    Mewtwo
    Blissey tends to normally beat it with Toxic, Tyranitar comes in on anything but Aura Sphere on Specs sets and exterminates it with Pursuit.

    Palkia
    Again no counter here although Dialga can OHKO with Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor and my Palkia can OHKO with Spacial Rend, Blissey also walls it as long as Rain isnt up.

    Rayquaza
    No counter but Lugia and Scarf Palkia put a stop to any plans it may have the majority of the time.

    Wobbuffet

    Lol
  2. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    Yeah, I thought that a lot in the Garchomp discussion threads.
  3. Xênaz

    Xênaz

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    I really like this team, great work. Also I'm glad you pointed out how Garchomp can fare in ubers very well. Also, I think some certain Taunt Mewtwos can cause more trouble than you give credit for. They completely immobilize Blissey and with your EV spread it can get a Calm Mind up on Tyranitar and live through a Pursuit and stay in (IIRC). After that it OHKO's with Aura Sphere and basically beats the rest of your team.

    As for what you could do to fix it, I'm not too good with Ubers (other than my beloved Mewtwo) and hell the only things that can take it out are Revenge Killers. I'd do some testing and see if there are enough TauntTwos to cause enough trouble or to see if you have a different way of handling them. Overall, awesome team.
  4. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    But after it takes the CB Pursuit, can it survive the follow up Spacial Rend from Palkia?
  5. Xênaz

    Xênaz

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    I'd have to do some Calcs, but it would probably come down to how many Calm Minds it got off. But there is still no doubt that Taunt CM Mewtwo is a threat to this team in my opinion. I'll run some damage calcs to see how much Damage it takes from Pursuit.

    EDIT: Ah, here we go...
    Tyranitar's Pursuit — Damage: 56.20% - 66.12%
    Palkia's Spacial Rend — Damage: 36.91% - 43.53% (Mewtwo has one Calm Mind)

    So there is pretty even chance of it KOing with Spacial Rend, and a VERY high chance that the SS will kill it, but you'll have lost two Pokémon. If it gets off two Calm Minds, however, Spacial Rend will only do 27.82% - 32.78% to Mewtwo, so you have a pretty low chance of getting the KO afterwards.
  6. Train Man

    Train Man

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    Hey Maniac, congrats on winning the Christmas Tourney.
    As for the RMT.

    RP (Rock Polish) Life-Orb Groudon may be rare, but it can pretty much dominate this Team. After an RP it outspeeds everything but ScarfPalkia. Stone Edge does 57-67% on your Lugia. With Stealth Rock, Lugia's living at 18-28% HP. Meaning, if you've taken prior battle damage, Lugia's looking in the rough.

    Palkia's best bet, Spacial Rend does 51-60%. (Surf does 49-57%) to Groudon, only plausible if Groudon's already worn itself out from LO Damage. TTar and Garchomp's Stone Edge's provide setup bait for Groudon as does Dialga's Thunder (Though you probably won't be thundering under Sunny Day, anyway).


    Spikes and SR will hurt your switch-heavy team and it's unfortunate that Forry has a lot of oppurtunities to get in. Chomp's dragon attacks, anything Lugia throws at him or mostly anything of Tar's will warrant a free switch-in and an extra layer of spikes.
  7. Brawley

    Brawley
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    You actually made a team about it....
    Anyways can you explain to me why you just don't use something like DD Ray? it has the same major ice weak, but It would sweep more...
  8. xcfrisco

    xcfrisco

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    Its interesting to note that Garchomp is slightly bulkier than Rayquaza. It gets 3 more Hp, 5 more Def, but 5 less SpDef. Almost all of the +80 Stat points Ray has over Chomp is in the +20 Att and +70 SpAtt.

    I think the most prevalent reason to use Chomp over Ray is the +7 Speed and STAB on EQ. STAB EQ+Outrage really brings the rape in ubers.
  9. Sovereign

    Sovereign

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    Overall rating: 9.1/10

    The one big problem is that your team can't deal with status problems. Also, you don't have any resistance to the most common attack type in uber battles...dragon attacks.
  10. Maniaclyrasist

    Maniaclyrasist custom user title of doom!!!
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    Thanks Train Man. As for Rock Polish Groudon unless it crits Lugia it will still probaly lose to my team. Orb'ed Earthquake does not OHKO Palkia nor does it OHKO Garchomp (Just assuming it doesnt have Dragon Claw here). If it doesn't Crit Lugia then Lugia will normally beat it.
    Lugia will come in on Groudon at lets say full health, Groudon uses Rock Polish on the turn i switch in, the following turn he proceeds to use Stone Edge while i use Reflect on the next turn Groudon cannot kill me with Stone Edge due to the Reflect and i can proceed to Roost off the damage then proceed to kill Groudon.
    If Lugia comes in on Stealth Rock I can use Ice Beam for roughly 35-40% on that Groudon and so that Palkia may revenge kill it with Spacial Rend due to Life Orb Recoil. It's possible i may even set up Reflect with Lugia so that pretty much anything on my team can do damage to it.''

    Simply because i dont want to? The emphasis is placed on Garchomp for this team and his slot is the only one i'd consider replacing for Rayquaza so....no

    The most common status problems in Ubers are Toxic and Will O Wisp and the pokemon that normal use them will not be beating Blissey any time soon.
    Blissey is also a fine status absorber with Natural Cure, Dialga also isnt affected by Toxic and most of the users of Toxic in Ubers have problems with dealing damage to Dialga anyway so i'm not really worried there.

    And as for having a resistance to Dragon typed moves, I dont think its a necessity as all of the pokemon that commonly use Dragon moves i've already listed counters for and I dont see myself having too much problems here either
  11. umbarsc

    umbarsc

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    I don't see the point of Garchomp. Rayquaza has a much better chance of sweeping teams with Dragon Dance. The only advantage Garchomp has is switching in on Choice Thunders, which is actually a pretty big advantage, but otherwise I don't see how he can compete with Ray.

    And yes, I have played ubers.
  12. husk

    husk
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    Let's just look at it (assuming the same set with cb only with ray over chomp)

    Pros of using Garchomp over Ray:
    - Chomp has 7 more base speed. This is HUGE. Way too many things stop at 320 and 330 to beat jolly ray/max speed non nature lati@s/+SpD base 100's.
    - Sand Veil. 1/5 chance of them taking an extra hit is always nice.
    - STAB EQ.


    Cons of using Garchomp over Ray:
    - Ray has 20 more base attack.
    - Ray has a ton more SpAtk...too bad there are no special moves on that set.

    On a side note: As for the attacking stat difference...you're still ohkoing/2hkoing the same stuff.


    I haven't really put a ridiculous amount of thought into the issue but using Garchomp on this team looks like the correct choice to me atm.
  13. sandman

    sandman Bum bum bum bum
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    Nice team team, since you have Softboiled on blissey, replacing Wish with Stealth Rock could support your team with Sandstorm + Stealth Rock damage. As a plus you will always 2 ko Lugia with Outrage if you do.

    EDIT: Rayquaza can come in easily on CBGroudon, ChoiceKyogre, and Manaphy that use rest on the turn Ray switches in.
  14. husk

    husk
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    I was comparing CB sets.
  15. sandman

    sandman Bum bum bum bum
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    I changed my wording but what i said benefits the CB set too.
  16. Maniaclyrasist

    Maniaclyrasist custom user title of doom!!!
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    Yes I can always rely on Palkia as back up but you have to take in account Focus Blast's accuracy as well as well as the fact that Darkrai will be taking constant Life Orb damage as well as possibly having to deal with Sandstorm's residual damage as well. Not a very good chance for Darkrai to win as far as i'm concerned.

    Hell yea Ninjask is rare, to the best of myowledge i've counted 9 in total and i've been playing Ubers since the time D/P came out in English on wifi.

    What do you mean i have no response to leading Ninjasks? What exactly can Ninjask pass to that wont take over 60% from Dialga's Specs Dragon Pulse while posing a threat to my team?.

    If Ninjask Swords Dance passes to Groudon with Focus Sash then it will take around 60-65% iirc from Dragon Pulse then from there what can it do to my team, i might get one kill but then i send out Palkia to revenge kill it and then my opponent is down one Baton Pass Recipient and most likely wont be able to do anything either with a 1 hp Ninjask.

    If Ninjask is a a Substitute, Protect Speed passing variant then i have even less to fear as even though i wont out speed it; whatever it passes to will unlikely be a threat to my whole team offensively and whatever it is still has to deal with Dialga's Specs Dragon Pulse before it can even think about setting up or attacking.

    I actually had Stealth Rock in place of Wish before and it did prove to be very useful but then again so does Wish at present. Right now i think its just a matter of preference in to what one you think is better for the team as both have their cons and pros in comparison to one another.
  17. Sovereign

    Sovereign

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    Oh ._.

    I was thinking of a different strategy about ninjask. I thought it would protect, then swords dance with sash.
  18. Maniaclyrasist

    Maniaclyrasist custom user title of doom!!!
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    The result would roughly still be the same.
  19. Druggedfox

    Druggedfox

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    Okay, I find that the team has kind of a weakness against offensive teams(well played, otherwise you can walk all over average players). First, I haven't played ubers much recently, but last I checked the common starters carry focus sash, or they go by the name of "choice scarfed darkrai" If either of these is the case, your dialga can't stand up to them much.

    Outside of Palkia (assuming starter is gone early game) your team also has a specs ogre weak, and seeing as if either of dialga or palkia switch in, they take a good 45%+ damage that's not looking too good. Yes, your team can handle kyogre in general, but having one thing to handle anything in ubers is dangerous seeing how fast the matches move and how easily things die.

    I also wonder if focus punch is worth it on palkia... i don't know how many people even run blissey, however right now you lose to every other palkia user in the game due to being outsped. This wouldn't be a problem if garchomp wasn't also beat by opposing palkias.

    SD don can also be a minor threat, though for some reason it's not seen much.

    Overall it's a decent team, but I think in the current uber metagame it can be taken advatange of too easily. Between your skill as a player, and the fact that the team is pretty good, I'm sure you could beat 90% of players with this team without breaking a sweat, but against anyone who's a top level uber player (especially someone with an offensive team) I can't see this team quite standing up to them. A lot of your comments on the threat list are viable, but between all the comments such as " No counter but Lugia and Scarf Palkia put a stop to any plans it may have the majority of the time." and "Another pokemon with no direct counter, Blissey can beats Specs sets, although Mix sets are always a problem Palkia can do a number with Spacial Rend and Garchomp can OHKO with Earthquake or 2HKO with Outrage" I think that there will be enough damage to your team overall that by late game (the most important part of a match imo and it goes by so fast) your team can't handle enough stuff.

    Of course, this is somewhat biased because I find that offensive teams work well and that being able to revenge kill and sheer power work better than walling your opponent in ubers.

    I probably kinda seem like im trashing the team, I really don't mean to... It's definitely a pretty good team, but I'm pretty sure you already know what your team does well, so now point in being redundant >_<

    Hope I gave a different view on ubers~

    *Edit* This quote just in from AbsolDeath: "lol he's maniac we EXPECT him to be the shit :p. So if it's not awesome, we criticize XD"

    This is immediately after posting so I thought Absol's comment was funny enough to post ;p

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