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buttom of the ocket

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by peng, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. peng

    peng

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    474
    [​IMG]
    buttom of the ocket
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]



    Table of Contents:
    • [jump=introduction]Preface[/jump]
      • [jump=building]Team Building[/jump]
    • [jump=microscope]Under the Microscope[/jump]
      • [jump=hippowdon]Hippowdon[/jump]
      • [jump=forretress]Forretress[/jump]
      • [jump=zapdos]Zapdos[/jump]
      • [jump=jellicent]Jellicent[/jump]
      • [jump=tangrowth]Tangrowth[/jump]
      • [jump=jirachi]Jirachi[/jump]
    • [jump=importables]Importables[/jump]
    • [jump=conclusion]Conclusion[/jump]

    [a]introduction[/a]Preface
    Okay, firstly I apologize for the length of this. It wasn't too bad before Harsha started writing his bit for it and ended up just paraphrasing a bunch of stuff I already touched on. He still hasn't even written his paragraphs for 4 of the Pokemon but I'm posting this now anyway just to get it out of the way so I can focus on other shit. Basically, blame Harsha for everything. This has been the only team I've really used for the last 3-or-so months, and is what I used for the Kyurem-B suspect test and OST9, as well as what little I played of the Genesect and Torn/Keld suspect metagames. Although it doesn't really introduce any individual Pokemon you haven't seen before, it does use a few Pokemon that don't see nearly enough usage in my opinion, such has Zapdos and Tangrowth. Thanks to tab for the excellent title; you very likely won't get the reference if you aren't from #uk, #tr_rule or into your ancient trou du cul / smogon greatest hits threads. However, I think its very fitting to end my Pokemon career (hopefully...) with a reference to the only guy who has been with me through it all: Pocketman.

    [a]building[/a]The first version of the team was built at the start of the Kyurem-B suspect test, when there was a lot of discussion about the decline in viability of stall. I went out to try and build a decent stall team to get reqs, not only for the sake of using stall but also because it actually requires half a brain to pull off. BW2 is already boring as it is without another yet person using autopilot Deo-D, VoltTurn or Rain offense. I've always been of the opinion that if you are going to dedicate hours of your life to playing a littled kids' video game on the internet, you might as well build or use a team that shows off any skill you have, rather than use teams that play themselves. The very first version of the team was SDef Hippowdon / Skarmory / SDef Zapdos / Fat Starmie / Ferrothorn / Scarf Terrakion, but I only ended up using it for around 20 battles before giving it a major overhaul; it had no spinblocker and was weak to just about everything relevant in OU. Skarmory was replaced with Forretress to free up a slot for Jellicent over Starmie. Ferrothorn was dropped for Tangrowth to better combat stuff like Terrakion, and my own Terrakion was replaced with a bulky Scarf Jirachi to provide a second Steel-type to the team. This version of the team ended up being much more successful, going 62 - 14 in my suspect test run to get reqs. It also peaked at #1 but that doesn't really mean anything on the suspect ladder.

    [a]microscope[/a]Under The Microscope

    [a]hippowdon[/a][​IMG][​IMG]
    Hippowdon (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 236 SDef
    Careful Nature [+SDef, - SAtk]
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Slack Off

    Hippowdon was a no-brainer for the team; I'm far more comfortable with Sand Stall than with any other stall-based playstyle. I've never been a fan of rain stall because you just never have the teamslots to do everything you want. You usually have to forego a scarfer which means you become really reliant on having stuff super healthy throughout the entire game to not lose to some random Dragon Dancer or Volcarona or something. Sun and Weatherless stall on the other hand are just unviable in a rain-infested metagame. Having determined I wanted to use Sand Stall, I had to decide whether I wanted to use Hippowdon or Tyranitar. Anyone who has ever had a conversation about Pokemon with me in the last 6 months should know that I really really really hate Tyranitar in BW2 unless its supporting Keldeo or something. So here we are, with Hippowdon.

    Okay enough random filler shit, lets get to the actual set. SDef Hippowdon is by far its best set in BW2 since its such a special-based metagame. Although mono-Ground typing doesn't look all that good for a mixed wall given the weaknesses it brings to common special attacks (Water-, Grass- and Ice-moves are common and almost exclusively special-based), Hippo is bulky enough to survive almost any unSTABbed super effective special hit, and able to survive a few STABbed ones too. He takes the likes of Thundurus-T Hidden Power [Ice] with ease and is never 2HKOd by Scarf or Expert Belt sets, and can also stand up to the likes of Latias. Its thanks to this excellent mixed bulk that SDef Hippowdon can almost single-handedly win the first 15 battles on a fresh alt on the ladder, or the first round or two in a tournament - new-ish players just have no idea how to beat him.

    Hippowdon's role on the team is to set-up Stealth Rock and keep opposing weather sweepers in check. As the only weather inducer with access to reliable recover and a Stealth Rock resistance, Hippowdon regularly outlasts opposing Politoed over the course of a battle. Earthquake and Slack Off are completely standard and theres really no reason not to use them. Rock Slide, however, is much less common but you can probably guess what its here for. Most people opt for Ice Fang or Whirlwind in the last slot, and although both have their obvious advantages over Rock Slide in a lot of scenarios, I like the utility Rock Slide brings to the team. It turns Hippowdon from a mediocre answer to Volcarona to an excellent check, whilst retaining the ability to hit the likes of Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, Dragonite and Salamence for good damage. Unlike Whirlwind, Rock Slide allows Hippowdon to check the aforementioned, even when they are the last Pokemon on the opposing team.

    [a]forretress[/a][​IMG][​IMG]
    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
    Relaxed Nature [+Def, -Spd]
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes
    - Gyro Ball
    - Volt Switch

    Forretress gets a lot of shit, and its not hard to see why. Its slow, weak, becomes set-up fodder for numerous Pokemon late-game and just lacks the survivability you'd want from a dedicated spinner and spiker. However, the only other option for a team like this is Starmie, who quite simply, sucks. To put into context how much "defensive" Starmie sucks, its around as bulky as an uninvested Keldeo. Yeah, I'll stick with Forretress, thanks.

    Forretress is the first Steel-type of the team, and as a result is overall my best switch-in to most physical dragons. Although it gets KOd by virtually any Rain-boosted Water-type attack, Forretress actually plays a key role in the match-up vs rain. Forry switches-in and spins freely on the only common hazard-setters you ever find on rain: Ferrothorn, Sash Terrakion and SDef Jirachi. With hazards off the field, Zapdos and Jellicent have a... field day against Rain (must be a better way of wording that 9.9). The set should be familiar to everyone. Volt Switch allows Forretress to escape the clutches of Magnezone, and also means I can preserve momentum on a predicted Jellicent or Heatran switch-in. In a pinch it means I can check Gyarados, or at least break its Substitutes! Gyro Ball is the main attack of choice because its the best option in the current competitive climate. The only other option really is Hidden Power [Ice], which is next to useless when nobody is using Gliscor, and Forretress should never stay in on Landorus-I anymore. Every other 4x Ice-weak Pokemon is hit for comparable damage by Gyro Ball, but the Steel STAB gains coverage on the likes of Terrakion and deters Gengar from switching in to spinblock.

    [a]zapdos[/a][​IMG][​IMG]
    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 244 SDef / 16 Spd
    Calm Nature [+SDef, -Atk]
    - Thunderbolt
    - Heat Wave
    - Toxic
    - Roost

    Zapdos is another Pokemon thats been getting a lot of shit recently. Unlike Forretress, however, I don't feel this trashtalk is really justified. I'm not even going to pretend that Zapdos would have a place on this team if Tornadus-T wasn't around, but I strongly feel that its a great metagame choice, at least until this round of suspect finishes. Although other bulky Flying-type resists like SDef Jirachi match-up better vs Tornadus-T 1v1, I find its all too easy for Tornadus to U-Turn out into something like Ferrothorn to set-up, or even defensive Politoed to try for a Scald burn. Jirachi doesn't really threaten anything on standard rain other than Tornadus-T, and if you're up against Torn + Dugtrio then you are in for a world of pain. Although Zapdos isn't as good against Tornadus-T in a vacuum, it makes up for this by putting a ton off pressure on Rain from the second it switches in and can't be trapped by anything bar the rare Gothitelle or Wobbuffet.

    Zapdos is part 1 of this team's dedicated anti-rain core, and despite the defensively-oriented EV spread and moveset, he's nearly always the guy who ends up cleaning late-game. Thunderbolt is the STAB option that rain teams despise, and even without investment it scores an OHKO on Tornadus-T and hits defensive Politoed and Tentacruel for an easy 2HKO. I see a lot of people running Volt Switch on their Zapdos' but I really hate the idea of having to switch-out whenever I want to hit something with my STAB, especially if Stealth Rock is up. Heat Wave is the coverage option, hitting Ferrothorn for a 3HKO even in rain and also allowing Zapdos to beat Scizor. Toxic was chosen over Hidden Power [Ice], Substitute and Roar because I really needed a way to hit Latios and Latias on the switch-in, and it also helps put a timer on stuff like last-mon Hippowdon. The 16 Spd EVS allow Zapdos to outspeed neutral 252 Spd base 70s, like Modest Politoed and Adamant Breloom.

    [a]jellicent[/a][​IMG][​IMG]
    Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 128 SDef / 132 Spd
    Calm Nature [+SDef, -Atk]
    - Scald
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Taunt
    - Recover

    With Deoxys-D + Gengar hyper offense teams still running rampant, it seems like everyone has forgotten that there are Ghost-types in OU that actually have some bulk to them. When people throw terms like "good spinner" around nowadays, they almost exclusively mean something that beats Gengar 1v1. This is a godsend for Jellicent-users, as the only spinners you ever really see nowadays are defensive Starmie, Forretress and Tentacruel. The only one of those that is breaking Jellicent anytime soon is SubToxic Tentacruel, which is still not nearly as popular as it should be. As a result, SDef Jellicent is incredibly hard for a lot of teams to spin against and in the vast majority of my battles, guarantees hazards stay up for the entirety of the game.

    Jellicent makes up part two of my anti-rain core, and handles everything that Zapdos can't. It hard counters all but Specs Hidden Power [Ghost] Keldeo, whom it often still outlasts in the long run. With Taunt and Will-o-Wisp, Jellicent also cripples the likes of defensive Politoed, and if it can get a burn on Ferrothorn then Zapdos has very little trouble steamrolling the opposing team. This EV spread is faster than almost any Jellicent you'll ever see, and this is mainly because of the gaining popularity of CBTar + Scarf Keldeo teams. This EV spread outspeeds up to 120 Spd Tyranitar, with standard CBTar only running 76 or 100 Spd EVs. The extra on top of that is purely for speed creep, because Jellicent is the only Pokemon on my team that can stand-up to Keldeo I need to ensure its not Pursuit-trapped too easily. Despite this ridiculous speed investment I was still outrun by a CBTar in OST9, so perhaps I should have gone for an even faster spread idk.

    [a]tangrowth[/a][​IMG][​IMG]
    Tangrowth (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Bold Nature [+Def, -Atk]
    - Sleep Powder
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Leech Seed

    Tangrowth is the closest thing Gen 5 has to a physical Blissey. It had a small boom in usage during the Excadrill era but unfortunately never really caught on after that. Despite its RU status, Tangrowth plays a key role in this team, and keeps physical threats such as Dragonite, Breloom, Lucario and Terrakion at bay. Regenerator is what makes Tangrowth usable, and turns the vine-thing into an excellent defensive pivot. He plays a lot like Slowbro, except the mono-Grass typing is generally better for this team. It allows Tangrowth to switch in on Tyranitar and Ferrothorn much easier whilst retaining the ability to check the physical Dragons and most Fighting-types. The lack of a recovery move isn't too much of an issue due to Regenerator, and Forretress keeping hazards off the field helps too.

    Although Tangrowth's physical movepool has some more powerful options available, like Power Whip and Earthquake, I opted for a special-based set as Tangrowth is often relied on as a check to Rotom-W and therefore ends up taking a burn pretty regularly. The downside to this, however, is that with Sandstorm up Giga Drain doesn't do as much damage to Tyranitar and Terrakion as you'd hope. Hidden Power [Ice] gains important coverage on the 4x Ice-weak Dragons, as well as hitting Gliscor and Landorus-T. With Gen V sleep mechanics, hitting a Sleep Powder pretty much means putting something out of commission for the rest of the battle. Leech Seed is the final move, just because there aren't really any other good options. I have enough clashing status' on the team without running Stun Spore as well, and Knock Off didn't really come in useful regularly enough to warrant its use. Leech Seed further makes up for the lack of a reliable recovery move, and along with Regenerator means Tangrowth can often stay healthy for an entire battle even after repeatedly switching in on Terrakion.

    [a]jirachi[/a][​IMG][​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 144 HP / 236 Atk / 128 Spd
    Jolly Nature [+Spd, -SAtk]
    - Iron Head
    - Ice Punch
    - Trick
    - U-turn

    The glue of the team, and one of my favourite scarfers. Even during the Genesect era I was using Scarf Jirachi, purely for the extra bulk and resistance to Stealth Rock meaning it can actually switch-in on stuff. The EVs look really random and there's a reason for that: they are. 128 Spd allows Jirachi to outspeed +1 Adamant Haxorus but the HP and Atk EVs are fairly randomly distributed otherwise as far as I can remember. Jirachi is one of my only good switch-ins for Latios and Latias so I needed as much bulk as possible without comprimising speed or power, and this EV spread ended up doing the job.

    Jirachi takes a lot of pressure off my defensive cores to check the numerous threats in OU. Dragonite got a DD up and Tangrowth isn't healthy enough to take a hit? Jirachi. Nasty Plot Thundurus-T causing issues? Jirachi. Tornadus-T crit and confused its way through Zapdos? Guess who? Its a crutch to fall back-on if I messed up earlier in the game and let one of my walls get too weak, and pretty much ensures I'm not helpless against any Steel- or Ice-weak offensive Pokemon from the offset. Iron Head and Ice Punch are standard for STAB and coverage respectively, and U-Turn means I can at least attempt to outplay DragMag and preserve momentum on obvious switches. Trick is in the last slot over some other coverage move because it puts an end to the likes of last mon CM Reuniclus and also screw up opposing stall somewhat.

    [a]importables[/a]Importable
    Show Hide
    King Hippo (Hippowdon) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 236 SDef
    Careful Nature [+SDef, - SAtk]
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Slack Off

    Disco Kid (Forretress) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
    Relaxed Nature [+Def, -Spd]
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes
    - Gyro Ball
    - Volt Switch

    Don Flamenco (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 244 SDef / 16 Spd
    Calm Nature [+SDef, -Atk]
    - Thunderbolt
    - Heat Wave
    - Toxic
    - Roost

    Soda Popinski (Jellicent) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 128 SDef / 132 Spd
    Calm Nature [+SDef, -Atk]
    - Scald
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Taunt
    - Recover

    Super Macho Man (Tangrowth) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Bold Nature [+Def, -Atk]
    - Sleep Powder
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Leech Seed

    Great Tiger (Jirachi) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 144 HP / 236 Atk / 128 Spd
    Jolly Nature [+Spd, -SAtk]
    - Iron Head
    - Ice Punch
    - Trick
    - U-turn


    [a]conclusion[/a]Conclusion
    Anyway I'm posting this now because Torn-T is almost definitely going uber, and since this team is pretty much a complete counterteam to this era of standard rain I imagine it won't really work in the next metagame.

    Also I'm "quitting" Pokemon, at least for a while. I'll probably remain active on IRC and I'll keep up with the XY stuff, but I doubt I'll ever be anywhere near as active or competitive as I have been the last 2 years in particular. I think everyone who has ever quit Pokemon has just had that one moment where they realise how big an effect the game has had on their social and/or work life over the years, and I don't even want to think about what I could have achieved if I dedicated that time to something even remotely worthwhile. That said, I hope you enjoyed this team as much as I enjoyed playing with it and writing it up.

    I'm not going to do shout-outs except for BKC because he rules and I'm a noober. Just kidding, BKC is a poopface and he sucks ! Harsha is a cunt!
    ~PenguinX
  2. peng

    peng

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    474
    Threatlist
    I don't think theres anything that I flat-out lose to, but there are a couple of major threats. Basically I have notable weaknesses to:
    • Growth Venusaur
    • Physical Fire-types (Darmanitan, Victini)
    • LO + Recover Latios
    • Super fast CBTar + Keldeo
    • SubDD Gyara - thank fuck nobody uses this anymore
    • Kyurem(-B)
    • Delibird - arguably the biggest threat to the team
    and probably some other stuff I've forgotten, I'll go more in depth later
  3. yee

    yee
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,110
    I really, really like this team. Zapdos and Tangrowth are two mons I feel have been extremely underrated even since BW1, especially Tangrowth which IMO is safe to call a full-on Physical Blissey. Anyway...

    252 HP / 252 Def on Forry blows, there's a certain point where you get so little out of every defense EV and so much out of each special defense EV that it becomes nonsensical to go any further doing so. This point was passed way before you got up to max defense IMO, if you trust my intuition (and you should) I would recommend using 252 HP / 136 Def (jump point) / 120 SpD instead. I was recently working on a team that had been filled out with full defense before and made that spread with the intention of keeping it in the exact same role, but to be still be as effective overall as possible. What happened the first game was a Kyurem-B alternating between Fusion Bolt and Ice Beam (doing about the same amount of damage) and me surviving it's final blow with 4% to spare- this allowed me to play the particular game safely. I have no doubt it was guaranteed to be KOed by Ice Beam that one turn earlier which would've replaced my optimal situation with possibly an even game. Hopefully you'll have similar experiences immediately, if not I'm absolutely sure you'll love it's ability to take a resisted Ice Beam at some point.

    Let's apply this to Tangrowth too. I personally would recommend the exact same spread there (252 / 136 / 120), or even more specially oriented, for the same reasons. It will one day end up in a situation where it will have to eat an HP Ice and it will be obviously more able to do so with this spread, it will also not immediately fold to things like Specs Starmie Hydro Pump in rain or a Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam outside of it (although you'll need to be super healthy for the Ice Beam case). It will still do a splendid job cushioning Choice Banded attacks and Forretress / Jellicent / Zapdos will be just as good at resisting. If stall is bothering you for whatever reason, try adding Knock Off for extra residual, if offense is trouble keep as is IMO.

    For Jellicent, why are you running Calm? I've never understood why anyone has specifically run Calm. It only takes 36 ish from SpD Rotom-W V-switch Bold and will tank anything significant but a Thunder from Thund-T / Rotom-W, which I guess warrants a small case, though I still feel it's not worth it given how squishy it is physically there. I like the extra security vs Scizor / ScarfTar / anything physical whenever I can grab it, but it's a bit more subjective than my previous nitpicks. If you are annoyed by SubToxic Tentacruel, try out Rest > Taunt. Jellicent is a mon you can fuck around with a lot, as long as you have Will-o-Wisp and Recover you are good to go! It may seem like giving up Taunt is giving up a key piece but only ladder players will generally immediately assume you are lacking Taunt (they really do this every single time) and the reward for assuming your opponent plays it safe is trolling their Tentacruel with REST of all things. I know its BW2 but have some fun here. Don't be afraid to jump up to Timid with enough speed to outrun Adamant Band Tar if you'd really like to and don't be afraid to try Cursed Body- this effectively destroys the opponents chances of critting you to death when they are so much more likely to get disabled than get their hit.

    Lastly I prefer Impish on my Hippo because it's already tanking Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteors and taking on Sub Hydreigon no problem. I feel like there's no significant cost and that extra buffer physically to gain.

    Good luck, have fun. Pray they make this metagame less of a failed abortion.
  4. Alexander.

    Alexander. Banned deucer.

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,835
    Hello,

    I really like this team anyway I have some advice to give you so let's start with the rate!

    First of all, I'd change Forretress' EV spread into 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD. This EV spread allows to switch into Latios and Kyurem-B's attacks more easily and that's pretty good for your team since it's a bit weak to Life Orb Latios and Kyurem-B, as you already said. I think that Physically Defensive Forretress isn't more useful than Special Defensive Forretress because you have already Hippowdon and Jirachi to check the physical dragon-types. Then, I suggest you to use Hidden Power replacing Toxic on Zapdos. If you use Special Defensive Forretress, Latios and Latias aren't any more a big threats for this team so Zapdos doesn't need Toxic at all. Hidden Power Ice allows to beat Sheer Force Landorus which seems problematic for your team, you can only hit with Tangrowth's Hidden Power Ice but it can't switch into it because of Focus Blast and Hidden Power Ice. Zapdos otherwise can switch into Landorus better than Tangrowth and KOs it with Hidden Power Ice so should be work fine in your team. Finally, I agree with yee's suggestion to change Hippowdon's nature into Impish. It allows Hippowdon to tank better some physically hits without losing significant special defensive power.

    Hope I helped, good luck!
  5. CTC

    CTC The Lord Shepherd shall guideth ye cattle
    is Smogon Frontier's Stadium Baronis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Hi Penguinx, I like the use of underrated mons as your special and physical walls, and zapdos/tangy do a great job respectively. As you said physical fire types can be a pain, well indeed seeing as sun gives the team a hard time. Since hippo is spdef, Banded Vic/Darm will indubitably get 1 kill everytime they switch in. Moreover, toxic spdef tran is a huge problem seeing as nothing on your team that can take a plume would appreciate the poison, or even the burn. Another mon that may pose as a threat is dubdance ThundT. After setting up on stuff like forre and jelli it can do a number to this team. However there really isn't room to make any significant changes seeing as the team functions well enough as is, so basically those are the few threats to keep in mind.
    GL
  6. BKC

    BKC
    is a Tutoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Castle Valetis a Past WCoP Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 16 Champion

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,654
    hi peng,

    you know that this is my favorite type of team so i obv like this one a lot. id take yees advice regarding impish hippo, ive been using it lately and theres really not that huge of a difference in taking special attacks while the extra physical defense is excellent. give it a shot.

    id also give a more physically defensive jellicent a shot. eventually youll start speed creeping so hard that youll lose a ton of bulk and cbtar will fuck you up with crunch anyway. just gotta keep jellicent out of ttars way with hazards and smart double switching. if keld is really an issue its worth considering zen headbutt on jirachi.

    thats about it, great team and gl
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Messages:
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    Hi Penguin nice team you got there! However there are a few weaknesses that seem like real problems... For starters you don't have any phazing move, which is never good for a stall team. Yeah you have your failsafe, Jirachi, to fall back on, but this won't always be enough. For example how do you deal with SubCM Latias? It gets a free sub against Tangrowth, Hippowdon, and Zapdos, and even against Forretress which can be pp stalled out of Gyro Balls. Then it will deal one or two hits to your Scarf Jirachi as you break its Sub. Rinse and repeat, and eventually a good player using SubCM Latias will manage to sweep through your team, as Latias easily sets up against half of your team.

    Same goes for SubCM Jirachi, to a much smaller deegree though as you have SpD Hippo, one of the best counters to it around. However Hippo without Whirlwind needs 2 hits in order to kill Jirachi and this is the problem. +1 Water Pulse 4HKOes Hippowdon, and with a little help of confuse hax you may not be able to 2HKO in time (all that Jirachi needs is you to get hit by confusion 1 time really, which has a 20% chance).

    So as you can guess by now i am suggesting of putting a phazing move on at least one of Hippo/Zapdos. I would put it at both if i were you as i know how important phazing moves are for stall teams, but one is enough to solve the problems that i mentioned and i get that Rock Slide is needed on Hippo as Rona is a big problem so you should put Roar instead of Toxic on Zapdos.

    Finally the other big problem of your team is that you use Forretress as your spinner without any form of ghost-elimination support, and i can't help but wonder how will Forretress manage to spin against Jellicent and Sableye teams. You may want to try Scarf Tyranitar for this reason, which can at least trap and kill Jellicent after Forretress uses Volt Switch and SR is on the field, while still acting as a failsafe for your team and being able to switch into Lati@s and even trap them and prevent them from annoying your team anymore.

    tl;dr

    Roar > Toxic on Zapdos or/and Whirlwind > Rock Slide on Hippowdon
    Scarf Tyranitar > Scarf Jirachi


    Good luck!

    EDIT: Oh and something else i forgot... Since you are aiming to spinblock against Starmie, meaning that you use a SpD spread, definitely use Shadow Ball over Scald in order to 2HKO before Starmie has a chance to crit and 2HKO you with an Electric move (yeah defensive Starmie actually use Thunder, at least mine does).
  8. peng

    peng

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    474
    Thanks for the rate, some really good suggestions here and I'll probably end up making most of these EV and Nature tweaks. The only one I'm not too sure on is Rest Jellicent, mainly because I can just imagine Jellicent being asleep for the rest of the game after using it. Even though everyone sees Taunt coming, it still comes in handy far too often to pass up. I'll give it a shot but just from theorymonning I'm not too convinced.

    I've used SDef Forret in the past and I'm not really a fan of it. It doesn't wall Latios and Latias because they almost always have Hidden Power [Fire] and imo Kyurem-B isn't common enough to warrant such a drastic EV change (plus now it can barely stomach 2 outrages). I'm probably going to run a slightly more specially defensive spread but max SDef is a no-no.

    Landorus-I is one of those paper weaknesses. Zapdos is a good check it because it can actually outstall Life Orb damage by spamming Roost, as HP Ice maxes out at 45% or something. Plus Jellicent and Hippowdon can stomach a hit and deal some damage back, and in a pinch Tangrowth is only OHKOd by Hidden Power [Ice] like 20% of the time or something (even less if i go with Yee's spread above). So yeah the calcs make it look like a massive threat but the only way its taking out Pokemon most of the time is by foregoing Rock Polish and relying on hitting stuff on the switch-in, and as a result Jirachi also checks it nicely. I don't think Hidden Power [Ice] Zapdos is really worth it overall, and Toxic has a ton of utility outside of just crippling Lati@s.

    Hippowdon is a decent answer to Heatran; even when burnt it beats SDef Heatran pretty easily 1v1. It is a big issue but its nothing that can't be played around, I normally just have to look at my team in the situation and decide which of Hippowdon and Jellicent I would rather have crippled by Toxic/Burn at that time. Unless I can fit Aromatherapy or Heal Bell on the team, however, this is just something I have to improvise against.

    I've only faced a few double dance Thundurus-T and, like all LO Thundurus, they are definitely pretty problematic. However its very difficult for them to get up both dances, and its generally handleable as long as it doesn't have both boosts. If I let it set-up NP and Agility then frankly I probably deserve to lose to it. Luckily it isn't common (yet), but its definitely the worst Thundurus set for this team to face.

    yeah I'll give physdef Jellicent a go. I only really used SDef in the first place because I assumed stuff like offensive Starmie and HP Ghost Keldeo was going to be more popular than I found it to be, but in the long run Jellicent doesnt actually need any SDef investment to take on Keldeo most of the time.

    Thanks for the rates so far. I'll get to yours in a bit, alexwolf, just dont have time atm!
  9. Mosquiton

    Mosquiton Tette

    Joined:
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    Ehi Guys! Very nice stall team here!

    The team seems pretty cool, there is not much to say but I have to give you some little advices here and there.

    First, I'll note that Leech Seed is mainly used to harass defensive teams for restores life but Tangro has regenerator so he haven't a great need of seeds and for counter the other defense teams you have all the hazards and having Jellicent you can avoid that the opponent will use RapidSpin, in this way will assure damage to each opponent makes a switch.
    So instead of seeds I advise you to enter Stun Spore, in this way you will be able to sleep and paralyze the opponent's Pokemon, but the main reason 'cause I advise this change is to reduce dramatically the momentum of the offensive team and this will make it much easier to kill.
    So between sand, hazards and switchs the opponent lost a lot of the staying.

    At this point I want to make a small change to Zapdos, I advise you to enter VoltSwitch> Tbolt, in this way you will keep, however, the electric stab but you can also create a small offensive volturnchain with Jirachi which also helps to fight the offensive team and causing further switch consequently further damage from hazard.

    Last thing, I want to recommend a quick change in the jellicent's moveset.
    Known that SubToxic Tentacruel could give some problem then add advise to put NightShade > Scald, in this way always will break the substitute but you will cause even 100 HP of damage each time you use it, also will be useful to break even the substitute of Toxicrock that otherwise can wall you totally.

    Sets:
    Show Hide

    >StunSpore over LSeed @Tangro
    >VoltSwitch over TBolt @ Zappy
    >NightShade over Scald @Jelly
  10. Jirachee

    Jirachee Kaleidoscope
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
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    This thread is the winner of RMT of the Week, because of the tiebreak. Since it had less replies, it was the winning thread. Congratulations penguinx!
  11. dice

    dice follow @smogmogu for hot content
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

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    Hey, PenguinX!

    Congratulations on winning RMT of the week! Even though Specially Defensive Hippowdon is a cute way of checking Sun, you're still weak to it. Things like Venusaur can bypass both Hippowdon and Zapdos after Stealth Rock. Opposing SubToxic Tentacruel and SubProtect Gliscor also make your life miserable as well since the former beats your Jellicent and can burn Hippowdon while the latter can PP Stall Gyro Ball from your Forretress and then proceed to sweep you. Kyurem-B and regular Kyurem are both problematic since your team is relatively slow and Scarf Jirachi is rather easy to set up on if you don't hax. You mentioned both Keldeo and Tyranitar in tandem being threatening as well. To fix these weaknesses, trying out a Latias instead of Zapdos could work. SubCM Latias can set-up on Toxic-mons like Gliscor, a Pokemon who is walled by Latias, and SubToxic Tentacruel if you don't suck and switch into the obvious Toxic. The standard spread of 248 HP / 8 SDef / 252 Spe @ Leftovers with a Timid Nature and moves of Substitute / Calm Mind / Roost / Dragon Pulse should work well for you. Latias checks Venusaur, gives you a secondary check to Keldeo that isn't easily trappable by Pursuit due to Substitute, and gives you a win condition in a sweeper which the team current lacks. I always like having some offensive pressure in my stall teams. Additionally, Latias is a much more durable Landorus check because it isn't weak to Stealth Rock and can outspeed both Kyurem formes unless they are Scarfed. With this change, Scizor becomes much more threatening. Simply putting Jellicent's SpD EV's into Def and using a Bold Nature should give you a solid Scizor counter. I wish you the best of luck.

    Quack.
  12. MikeDecIsHere

    MikeDecIsHere And the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate.
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    Urgh, dammit Brii stole exactly what I was going to post :/

    Yeah, you know I am a huge fan of this team man. I've been using it for quite some time, and it is basically the only team that I really used in BW2. Now that Torn-T is gone, you have a bit more flexibility with the team since Zapdos' niche (although a great Pokemon even with Torn gone) really has been trampled with. Latias is probably your best replacement for Zapdos, since Latias helps you out against Sun while still remaining a solid check against Landorus-I. It also helps you out against Sub/Toxic Gliscor / Tentacruel, who both can be quite an annoyance to your team. If you want to have a phazer, then you can probably drop Calm Mind for Roar, since some set up mons could be annoying.

    Awesome team man ^_^. Luvdisc'd, even though that ass crack almost made me vom

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