Metagame BW Doubles

#1

This thread is dedicated to information and discussion about the Generation 5 Doubles Metagame, BW Doubles
PLAY RESTRICTIONS
  • Evasion Clause: Players cannot use the moves Double Team or Minimize.
  • Moody Clause: Players cannot use a Pokemon with the Moody ability.
  • OHKO Clause: Players cannot use the moves Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill, or Sheer Cold.
  • Species Clause: Players cannot use two Pokemon with the same Pokedex number on the same team.
  • Sleep Clause: Players cannot put two Pokemon on the opposing team to sleep.
POKEMON RESTRICTIONS
Players cannot use the following Pokemon:
  • Mewtwo
  • Lugia
  • Ho-oh
  • Kyogre
  • Groudon
  • Rayquaza
  • Jirachi
  • Dialga
  • Palkia
  • Giratina
  • Giratina-Origin
  • Arceus
  • Reshiram
  • Zekrom
  • Kyurem-White
MOVE RESTRICTIONS
Players cannot use the following moves:
  • Dark Void
  • Sky Drop
ITEM RESTRICTIONS
Players cannot use the following item:
  • Soul Dew
NOTABLE MECHANIC CHANGES
The following are key differences between BW Doubles and later generations:
  • Steel resists Ghost and Dark
  • Gems exist and confer a 1.5x boost
  • Knock Off has 20 base power
  • Ability-summoned weather conditions are permanent
  • Follow Me/Rage Powder have +3 priority (same as Fake Out)
  • Standard Singles Sleep Clause is enforced
  • Grass Types are affected by powders, Electric Types can be paralyzed
  • Sleep Timer resets on switch-out
  • Swagger is not banned
  • Wide Guard / Quick Guard can fail like Protect
  • Double Protects work 50% of the time.
  • Critical Hits do 2x Damage
  • Various Special Attacks have adjusted BP, PP, or Accuracy.
    • List of notable changes:
      • Air Slash has 20 PP instead of 15 PP
      • Assurance has 50 BP instead of 60 BP
      • Aura Sphere has 90 BP instead of 80 BP
      • Blizzard has 120 BP instead of 110 BP
      • Draco Meteor has 140 BP instead of 130 BP
      • Dragon Pulse has 90 BP instead of 85 BP
      • Energy Ball has 80 BP instead of 90 BP
      • Fire Blast has 120 BP instead of 110 BP
      • Flamethrower has 95 BP instead of 90 BP
      • Glare has 90 Accuracy instead of 100 Accuracy
      • Heat Wave has 100 BP instead of 95 BP
      • Hidden Power has variable BP, ranging from 30 BP to 70 BP, instead of a flat 60 BP
      • Hurricane has 120 BP instead of 110 BP
      • Hydro Pump has 120 BP instead of 110 BP
      • Ice Beam has 95 BP instead of 90 BP
      • Knock Off has 20 BP instead of 65 BP
      • Leaf Storm has 140 BP instead of 130 BP
      • Meteor Mash has 100 BP and 85 Accuracy instead of 90 BP and 90 Accuracy
      • Muddy Water has 95 BP instead of 90 BP
      • Overheat has 140 BP instead of 130 BP
      • Surf has 95 BP instead of 90 BP
      • Tailwind has 30 PP instead of 15 PP
      • Technoblast has 85 BP instead of 120 BP
      • Thunder has 120 BP instead of 110 BP
      • Thunderbolt has 95 BP instead of 90 BP
      • Will-O-Wisp has 75 Accuracy instead of 85 Accuracy
 
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#2
BW DOUBLES VIABILITY RANKINGS

This is the Generation 5 Doubles Viability Rankings where Pokemon are ranked based on viability in the metagame. The rankings and tier descriptions have been assigned to better each Pokemon's state within the metagame. These rankings will not be updated as periodically as last generation but may have shifts after big tournaments featuring this generation.​

Tier 1

Pokemon that have a good matchup vs a large portion of the metagame, are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon.
Hitmontop
Keldeo
Thundurus-I
Tornadus-I
Tyranitar

Tier 1.5

Pokemon that are generally strong, but can be dead weight in some matchups, don't have great matchups vs a lot of Tier 1, or are only particularly useful for checking a certain team style.
Abomasnow
Amoonguss
Cresselia
Metagross
Kingdra
Kyurem-B
Landorus-T
Latios
Politoed
Shaymin-S

Tier 2
Pokemon which have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in the higher tiers. This also includes Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below.
Conkeldurr
Deoxys-A
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Gastrodon
Genesect
Gyarados
Heatran
Hydreigon
Infernape
Jellicent
Landorus-I
Ludicolo
Mamoswine
Rotom-F
Rotom-H
Salamence
Suicune
Terrakion
Togekiss
Volcarona
Weavile

Tier 3
Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently.
Bisharp
Breloom
Darkrai
Escavalier
Manaphy
Porygon2
Rhyperior
Sableye
Scizor
Scrafty
Thundurus-T
Victini
Virizion
 
#3
BW Doubles "Sample" Teams (wip rn)

These are teams for getting into the BW Doubles metagame! The purpose of this is to showcase BW Doubles teams in order to help aspiring new players jump into the tier and get acclimated to the tier's numerous team playstyles and archetypes. If you have a team you feel like could be included, feel free to post your team here with the importable and a short description, preferably with sprites as well.

Abomasnow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 28 Def / 228 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Blizzard
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Giga Drain

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Protect

Gyarados @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icy Wind
- Waterfall
- Taunt
- Protect

Thundurus @ Electric Gem
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Thunder Wave
- Protect

Infernape @ Fire Gem
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 208 Atk / 48 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fake Out
- Overheat
- Close Combat
- Feint

Metagross @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Protect

Chief Justice (Scizor) @ Occa Berry
Trait: Technician
EVs: 136 HP / 152 Atk / 172 SDef / 48 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Tailwind
- Protect

El Presidente (Tyranitar) @ Chople Berry
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 100 HP / 184 Atk / 224 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Stone Edge
- Protect

Predator (Genesect) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Download
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam

The Nuclear Option (Victini) @ Choice Band
Trait: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- Bolt Strike
- Brick Break

Chief of Staff (Latias) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Tailwind
- Heal Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Helping Hand

M16 (Breloom) @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Spore
- Protect

Note: This team is quite dated, though the overall structure is sound. If you do want to use this team it is highly recommended that the sets are updated.
Vanellope (Scrafty) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Atk / 56 SDef / 80 Def
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Fake Out
- Crunch
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch

Sour Bill (Tornadus) (M) @ Flying Gem
Trait: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Superpower
- Taunt
- Protect

Calhoun (Cresselia) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 40 SAtk / 176 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd / 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Psyshock
- Skill Swap
- Sunny Day

Wreck-it Ralph (Heatran) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 56 SAtk / 56 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 17 Spd
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Protect

Felix Jr. (Gastrodon) @ Leftovers
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
- Muddy Water
- Toxic
- Recover
- Stockpile

King Candy (Exeggutor) @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 36 SAtk / 220 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
- Leaf Storm
- Psyshock
- Trick Room
- Protect

Note: This team is quite dated, though the overall structure is sound. If you do want to use this team it is highly recommended that the sets are updated.
 
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#5
I'd say move keldeo, tran and definitely scizor to 1.5. I think keldeo was seen once in dpl and for good reason. Loses to torn, thund, latios, cress, amoon and skymin. Its still good because its STABs are qute nice but not tier 1 worthy.

Tran is really good next to cress and overall gives good switchins to a lot of dangerous stuff (steels, latios etc). The sub set is strong af. Like it can just sit on the field forever sometimes. Eruptran under tr is a huge threat too. Loses to a bit too much for tier 1.

From dpl scizor emerged as a huge threat. It actually finds quite a lot of opportunities to set up an sd and just kill stuff without huge amounts of support. Its at least 2hkoing most stuff in the meta and has strong priority to pick off faster stuff. Once again is useless vs some mons so not 1.5 but its definitely better than tier 3.

I could also see amoong in tier 1 but 1.5 is fine for it.

And one thing that that OP doesnt say is that swagger isnt banned (no idea why) so prepare your anus
 
#6
So shaian and I were messing around with Lando-T EV spreads for like an hour earlier and we came to a couple conclusions (listed below with my personal input):

- You should be running at least 367 Attack to OHKO Tornadus and offensive Thundurus with Stone Edge. This doesn't lose any major OHKOs to my knowledge, and still keeps the 2HKOs you need. Hitting this number requires 32 Attack EVs with an Adamant nature or 164 EVs with a neutral nature.
- - I honestly like Stone Edge a lot more than Rock Slide for this reason, especially since Tornadus is my personal nightmare on any team that I don't throw a Metagross on.
- Unless you want to run 252 Jolly with a Gem, the best speed benchmark seems to be around the 260-266 range. 260 means you outrun Shaymin-S with Scarf, 266 Aerodactyl. 263 means you'll outrun positive base 70s like Breloom and Politoed without a Scarf.
- - I don't really think any higher is necessary; the only big base 80 I can think of is Mamoswine, and Heatran is almost always Modest. I wonder if there are any good Tailwind benchmarks... nah they're probably all EV'd to outrun Scarf Lando-T LOL
- It's impossible to get super spicy defensive benchmarks along with these important offensive benchmarks. We tried calcing unboosted Tornadus Gem Acrobatics + Scarf TTar Rock Slide and it's just SO many EVs.
- You can EV Lando-T to take on Choice Band Kyurem-B! ...as long as it doesn't click Ice Beam, anyway.

We still need to test our super spicy Lando-T spread so I'm not dropping it here, but I figured Lando-T observations are always good, and I personally love seeing people come up with creative spreads.


I also want to give a quick shoutout to Metagross. This Pokemon is so god damn strong it's ridiculous, you just click Meteor Mash and watch things die. Strong Bullet Punch is super useful for picking things off, and it probably does really big damage to Tyranitar too; Scizor technically does that part better but Scizor doesn't get Meteor Mash >:( Metagross is also super bulky, so you can switch it in on big hits. Add some speed control and holy shit

Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Bullet Punch
- Ice Punch / Hammer Arm

I've just been running Choice Band on a really offensive team, and it does exactly what it says on the box. I think Steel Gem and Lum with a Swagger partner is also super potent; I know AuraRayquaza beat me multiple times with the latter. Metagross is just a fucking monster. I need to find some cool EV spreads for this too.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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#7
132 speed gets you above min speed rotom-w, and CB Zen Headbutt does 70% minimum. I think Steel Gem is better in any case, but if I were running CB, I'd want way more speed to get above that benchmark and probably creep it too.
 
#8
Trick is cool for messing with ferro/cress and stuff like latios. Also i guess ill post a team thats actually up to date and very good.

Metagross @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Protect

Hitmontop @ Fighting Gem
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Wide Guard
- Feint

Latios @ Dragon Gem
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Protect

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 180 HP / 252 Atk / 76 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Rock Slide
- Superpower

Thundurus @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 192 HP / 76 SpA / 220 SpD / 20 Spe
Calm Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Swagger

Gastrodon-East @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 168 HP / 28 Def / 164 SpA / 148 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Muddy Water
- Earth Power
- Icy Wind
- Protect


Just the team i used in dpl finals, has a good matchup against everything except some infernape +torn stuff which you need to play well vs. Swagger thund + gross is good enough to win some games just by leading it and gastro evs live either a dragon gem draco from latios or a fighting gem cc from hitmontop. One of my favorite bw teams
 

miltankmilk

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#9
Can we actually ban swagger from this format? Realistically there's no difference between swagger here and in XY where it was banned. Nobody actually defends the merits of swagger in this format and it negatively affects the competitiveness of just about every game its in.

edit: I will use this post as a compilation of "holy shit ban this move" replays as evidence for why it has no place in gen5 doubles.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5doublesou-301030
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5doublesou-561897387
 
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MajorBowman

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Moderator
#10
In light of the recent council vote on Swagger in SM Doubles OU, the council has also decided to organize a vote on Swagger in BW DOU. The move Swagger, while sometimes used in conjunction with a Lum or Persim berry to boost a partner's attack, has primarily become a means of disrupting opponents by forcing unnecessarily luck-based elements into battles. This has been a frequent topic of conversation among the Doubles community, and since action is being taken in SM and was already taken in ORAS, it was decided that it only makes sense to examine Swagger in BW as well.

However, the participants of this vote are not simply the Doubles OU Council. Since most members of the council have less recent experience in BW Doubles than other members of the community, recent tournaments including BW DOU were taken into account. Users were selected if they met at least one of following criteria:

1. At least three (3) games played in the BW DOU tier in DPL 3
2. At least six total (6) points earned in Weeks 3 and 6 (the only two weeks of BW DOU) of Smogon Doubles Tournament

The following users have qualified and will be the only users participating in this vote:
AuraRayquaza
Mizuhime
Pocket
qsns
SableyeMyBae
Stax
Toxigen
Yellow Paint

The vote will occur this week, and the results will be posted by Friday. A supermajority of 60% will be required for Swagger to be banned. This vote WILL affect the remainder of Smogon Doubles Tournament, including Week 9 and Playoffs.
 

MajorBowman

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Moderator
#15
BW Swagger Vote
A. Ban Swagger
B. Do Not Ban Swagger

A. Ban Swagger

I think swagger in BW is an interesting one, slightly different to both SM and ORAS. In ORAS swagger was almost solely used as a cheese strat to save a lost game, and in SM it is pretty much only used for boosting setup partners. In BW you have a mix of both, I have seen a couple of mons use a lum berry in conjunction with DD (gyarados and ttar) to boost up, or just on its own to blow holes (Metagross), but you also have the thundurus emergency button too as shown in the replays in the bw thread. I plan to address both.

The whole sideswag is most definitely not broken. To effectively sideswag, you need to spend your item slot on lum berry so it is not free by any means. Its a shame, because i think sideswagging in BW is a very interesting part of the meta. You can at any time during a battle take a +1/+1 mon and go for game, but you only get one chance rather than being able to spam boosts.

The confusion is the real issue here. With swagger, thundurus can effectively have no checks, as it is a 50% chance to just not move not even factoring in swagger. with most teams, sideswag just becomes an added bonus which in my opinion is dreadfully unhealthy. There is no place for 50/50 get-out-of-jail cards in a competitive meta. In too many games, and some important ones at that, I have seen swagger turn a deservedly lost game into a win, or just give a disadvantage too large to overcome. The potential 'you can just switch out' argument is also flawed since sometimes you dont have that luxury, as in my dpl battle, where ttar was my kyub and thund check but ended up not moving.

B. Do Not Ban Swagger

This had to be extremely obvious coming from me, but i'll give my reasoning as well.

As someone who's been actively playing BW and Doubles since its inception way back when, i've truly never felt Swagger to be a problem in any generation, even less so in BW. Doubles allows you play around a single Pokemon trying to swagger you with the use of protect, and it being Doubles allows you to use Swagger to boost your own partners attack stat (though not often seen in bw as it was in sm.) Just taking a quick observation at the current stat of BW, weather is obviously the most prominent part of the meta and the only really Swagger users are Thundurus or the extremely rare Liepard.

The conclusions i've always drawn from playing is that Thundurus typically only runs Thunder Wave and would much rather paralyze the Rain Sweepers like Kingdra and Ludicolo than go for Swagger. Against Sand teams Thunudurs typically isn't going to be staying in on Tyranitar or Excadrill as they just kill him. I believe Swagger "got better" and became a "problem" in ORAS when Thundurus got better too. With every team having gems on them in BW more things were able to nuke Thundurus for an OHKO than you ever saw in ORAS. The rise of mega's and fairies also made Pokemon that could deal with Thundurus easier than some Pokemon, worse.

Personally speaking, I think Thunder wave is a much larger problem than swagger ever has been. Paralyzes doesn't ware off, lowers your speed, and has a larger chance to make you not move over the course of the battles than Swagger's confusion does. I never see Swagger decide a game, but Thunder wave does frequently

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Abstain

Swagger: Ban

Swagger is a move with nearly no drawback and allows for poor playing or threat management to be rewarded on a coinflip. Its wide distribution gives it to Pokemon with great bulk or Prankster, making it unparalleled in its ability to cheese out games because of how hard it is to knock out the best users of the move. swagger gives otherwise passive Pokemon like bulky Thundurus and Cresselia ways to generate free turns, the most important resource in DOU, making the move extremely powerful and in my eyes, broken.

Abstain

A. Ban Swagger

Swagger is an immensely powerful move with virtually no counterplay. It allows players to gain significant momentum with its high chance of succeeding, its immobilty and its ability to stack damage. Though I believe there is some skill in realizing when to use swagger at the correct time, the lack of counterplay makes it overbearing. An opponent must simply hope that they do not get hit by it or try to switch around it but lose momentum. Couple this with the fact that bw dou is generally a more specially based metagame and that the meta has lower damage output compared to other generations means that pokemon like bulky thundurus can abuse swagger even more than in other generations. Thus I am voting to ban swagger.

A. Ban Swagger

I don't really have much knowledge of the BW metagame, but I truly don't see a reason why this move should still be allowed in the tier. I feel it's an unhealthy move for the game in general, self swagger is a pretty solid option, but of course that coinflip chance it's the main problem, you shouldnt have the opportunity to block your opponents pokemon with a coinflip for a turn and potentially more.

A. Ban Swagger

Lum meta/sciz are fun and honestly beneficial additions to the tier, but since there's no swag clause option I'm picking ban straight away. Swag just adds more luck into matches, and crucial, game-hinging coinflips at that. Thund is the main culprit, but torn or any other fast mon can use it nearly as well, suggesting the move itself is uncompetitive. An example case is thund swagging a tr setter out of fear/knowledge of mental herb, or just not carrying taunt because it's actually more viable to gain an extra moveslot by relying on swag instead. Anyways, swag flips coins regardless of speed control, and while lum exists on certain mons to protect from other status, there's no real way to "outplay" your eruptran from hitting itself or even reliably switch in. Swag's been here a long time, and it won't be missed.


Final Results: 5 Ban, 1 Do Not Ban, 2 Abstain

Thus Swagger is Banned from BW Doubles OU