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[BW-OU] "The Old Man and the Sea" [also Peaked #1]

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by MisterBobobo, Apr 15, 2013.

  1. MisterBobobo

    MisterBobobo

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2010
    Messages:
    24
    [​IMG]
    INTRODUCTION​

    Hello everybody! My name’s MisterBobobo and I’m from Italy. I’ve been a competitive battler since D/P in 2009 but that’s only now I come to the Smogon forums so that post a team I want you to rate. I like building creative (and viable and good) teams I like playing with on the ladder.
    This team is mainly centered around the Keldeo + Thundurus-T core, a really offensive duo I feel very comfortable with. It’s a kind of a rain balanced team with some new tools from Black and White 2 and I must say I was very surprised it really worked and maintained a 90% win rate on the ladder. When I first tried to use it on PO, I used to put Calm Mind on Keldeo and opt for a Lum Berry Nasty Plot + Agility Thundurus-T; they were so difficult to stop, but for some reasons it didn’t work. When I decided to put Choice Scarf > Leftovers on Keldeo, I realized it was such a beast. So I tried to add team members that could lure and kill their counters and checks.
    Rain is very useful for the main core, ensuring Keldeo some OHKOs and 2HKOs with its STAB moves and raising the accuracy of Thunder. Celebi, Skarmory and Tentacruel make another very good, defensive core, with Rock being the only type they don’t resist together. Perish Song + U-turn, Entry Hazards and Rapid Spin are really useful support moves the team couldn’t work without. Perish Song in particular stops stat-uppers that come in on a locked move of Keldeo; U-turn makes a great combo with Thundurus and helps dealing with threats like Latios; Stealth Rock is necessary to OHKO Dragonite with HP Ice; Spikes are very useful to OHKO Blissey with Secret Sword; Rapid Spin removes Stealth Rock for Thundurus and Toxic Spikes for Politoed and Celebi.
    The name of this team came after that I read one of the most famous books from Ernest Hemingway: “The Old Man and the Sea”. The team also peaked #1 on the OU ladder of Pokémon Showdown and reached a good rank on the Pokèmon Online one too.
    Show Hide
    [​IMG][​IMG]


    TEAM BUILDING PROCESS​

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    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    The old man and the Marlin make a fantastic core, with lots of resistances and great offensive power. However, they share some checks & counters, like Celebi, Latios and Latias. Specially Bulky Pokémon like Jirachi may be useful, but Rain is now necessary in order to make their STAB hit harder.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    # Politoed summons Rain, making Keldeo and Thundurus very difficult to check, but Latios, Latias, Jirachi, Sheer Force Landorus, CM Keldeo, Bulky Grass Pokémon and Rotom-W are now very big threats. Jirachi is a good Special Sponge and can deal with Latios and Latias. Blissey can take lots of attacks from the likes of Rotom, Latios and other special sweepers. Mamoswine is a good Latwins check and may be useful against Grass and Steel types. However, Specially Defensive Celebi is probably the best counter of Rotom-W and Breloom and really likes Rain; it can also also stop very threatening stat-uppers like CM Latias, Jirachi and Keldeo thanks to Perish Song.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    # With Celebi in my team, Tyranitar and Sand Teams may be a problem. Annoying sweepers like Scizor, Tornadus-T and Dragonite are big threats too. I also need something that can set some Spikes like Ferrothorn. Skarmory is my choice. It’s not very common in BW2, but it can still do its job quite well. It’s also very good with Rain support and some Special Defense EVs investment.
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    # Looking at the threat list, I realize there are not many Pokémon my team has big problems with. Anyway, Deoxys-D, Ferrothorn and Forretress are annoying as usual. Even if my team is not very weak to EH, Politoed and Thundurus-T really appreciate Rapid Spin support. After considering Starmie as my first option (that makes my team too weak to Tyranitar), I opt for Tentacruel, which can also be a good counter of Icy Wind Keldeo, Standard Volcarona, Ninetales.
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    TEAM AT A GLANCE​

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    Even if its stats are lackluster and its movepool is strictly average, Politoed is the only useable Rain inducer so it's pretty obvious to be used in Rain teams. Choice Scarf just gives it a chance to be a decent revenge-killer, dealing with lots of dangerous threats like Ninetales, Terrakion, Dragonite, Salamence, Heatran.
    Hydro Pump is the main STAB move, 2HKOing Starmie, Rotom-W and Salamence if SR are on the field, while Scald deals good damage and burns opposing switch-ins with one move. Ice Beam is used to revenge-kill Dragonite, Salamence, Hydreigon, Breloom, Haxorus. Hypnosis is useful in nearly any situation, being a welcome balance for the ability to disable one Pokemon on the opposing team nigh permanently. Max Spd and SAtk EVs allow Politoed to be a decent revenge-killer, outspeeding any Pokemon under 130 base Speed and assail it with the corresponding attack.
    Keldeo is the best front-runner of offensive rain teams, unleashing destructive Hydro Pumps without refrain. Thundurus-T is a good offensive teammate too: its Volt Absorb negates Electric attacks used against Politoed and Keldeo while the rain increases its Thunder’s accuracy to the perfection.

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    "The old man was thin and gaunt with deep wrinkles in the back of his neck. The brown blotches of the benevolent skin cancer the sun brings from its reflection on the tropic sea were on his cheeks. The blotches ran well down the sides of his face and his hands had the deep-creased scars from handling heavy fish on the cords. But none of these scars were fresh. They were as old as erosions in a fishless desert." ― Ernest Hemingway - The Old Man and the Sea

    Expert Belt Thundurus-T is one of the strongest special attackers and wall-breakers in the game, catching opponents to surprise by luring and OHKOing lots of threats that assume Thundurus-T is equipped with a Choice Scarf. Its stratospheric 427 Special Attack and quite good Speed (enough to outspeed Adamant Salamence) allow Thundurus-T to revenge-kill a really good number of OUs, like Breloom, Cloyster, Conkeldurr, Donphan, Dragonite, Dugtrio, Espeon, Forretress, Garchomp, Gastrodon, Gliscor, Gyarados, Haxorus, Heatran, Infernape, Jellicent, Landorus-T, Lucario, Metagross, Politoed, Rotom-W, Salamence, Scizor, Skarmory, Tentacruel, Tornadus-T, Toxicroak and Vaporeon.
    Thunder is the main STAB, the strongest of its STAB moves, Focus Blast and Hidden Power [Ice] are very good coverage moves: Focus Blast hits Ferrothorn, Heatran, Tyranitar, Magnezone and Mamoswine; Hidden Power [Ice] allows Thundurus-T to kill Dragonite, Salamence, Breloom, other Dragon- and Grass-types. Grass Knot lures and revenge-kills Gastrodon, Hippowdon, allowing my team to win the weather war. A Modest Nature may seem quite stupid, but there are lots of threats the Timid one can’t OHKO, like Hippowdon, Ninetales, Terrakion and Toxicroak. 8 HP EVs allow Thundurus-T to be 4HKOed by Seismic Toss and Night Shade, 248 Spd EVs are just enough to outspeed Neutral 100 base speed.
    As Thundurus-T can lure and revenge-kill bulky threats like Gastrodon and Celebi, Choice Scarf Politoed and Keldeo are great partners: they can spam their powerful Hydro Pumps with impunity once those ones are out of the equation. The former can also support Thundurus-T with rain, while the latter checks Ice-, Rock-type threats. 

    [​IMG]
    “I may not be as strong as I think, but I know many tricks and I have resolution.”
    ― Ernest Hemingway, The Old Man and the Sea


    With a Choice Scarf equipped and Rain Support, Keldeo becomes almost devastating: 357 Special Attack, 519 Speed, a 270 power move and quite good coverage moves make it a great revenge killer, late game sweeper in the rain. It’s is such a big problem to every offensive team, also revenge-killing lots of threats like Venusaur, Dragonite, Salamence, Ferrothorn, Empoleon thanks to its coverage moves. Anyway, the best way to wreak havoc is to go for Hydro Pump after some layers of Spikes are set up. To illustrate the might of its power, here is a couple of Keldeo checks that should almost never switch into Hydro Pump:
    Show Hide
    252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie in rain: 168-198 (51.85 - 61.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in rain: 135-159 (44.7 - 52.64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    In regard to the moveset, Surf is the staple move, doing crazy damages even to Water resistants, while Hydro Pump may be useful to kill specific threats; Secret Sword is Keldeo’s second STAB move and helps to deal with Chansey, Blissey, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W; Hidden Power [Ice] allows Keldeo to revenge kill Dragonite, Salamence and Breloom. The EVs maximize Keldeo’s Special Attack and Speed, making it one of the most threatening sweepers in the BW metagame.
    Keldeo and Thundurus-T form a great core together: the former kills Ground- and Dragon-types, luring Electric and Water; the latter lures Ground- and Dragon-types and deals with Keldeo’s main counters (like Jellicent, Tentacruel, Toxicroak, Gastrodon). Thundurus-T always manages to lure and revenge-kill some Keldeo counters like Celebi, Jellicent, Toxicroak, Amoonguss and Gastrodon. 

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    A really good and synergetic typing, a great ability and access to Recover make Celebi an interesting addition especially to Rain teams, because can check common special threats namely Latias, Starmie, Politoed, Tentacruel, Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, Calm Mind Jirachi, Sheer Force Landorus.
    Perish Song allows Celebi to counter stat-uppers such as Jirachi, Latias, Landorus, Thundurus-T (but also shuffling for extra EH damage, essentially acting as a pseudo-hazing move); Psychic means Celebi is able to deal with Breloom, Conkeldurr, Toxicroak, Tornadus, Thundurus-T, Keldeo, Terrakion; Recover enables Celebi to last throughout the match; U-turn works very well with Perish Song, also hitting threats like Latios, Latias, Starmie, Celebi, Tyranitar. Max HP and SDef EVs investment masimizes special bulk, allowing to avoid 2HKOs from many notable threats, pertinently HP [Ice] from Sheer Force Landorus and Thundurus-T, Draco Meteor from Choice Specs Latios.
    Tentacruel and Politoed are really good teammates, sharing a flawless defensive synergy with Celebi, because it checks Electric- and Grass-type threats, while Politoed and Tentacruel are good switch-ins to Fire- and Bug-type ones, such as Scizor and Heatran.

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    Tentacruel is a great choice for a variety of support roles, including removing entry hazards, checking some threats such as Heatran, Infernape, Terrakion, Keldeo, Politoed. The Subtoxic set functions as a good wallbreaker, also taking full advantage of Rain Dish.
    Rapid Spin is greatly appreciated as Thundurus-T is weak to Stealth Rock; Scald is one of its best STAB moves, offering an excellent 30% burn rate; Substitute blocks harmful status, lets it scout its checks, and most important of all, protects Tentacruel from taking hits; finally, Toxic allows it to get past Jellicent and Gastrodon, also pairing well with Substitute. As for the EVs spread, 252 HP EVs are allotted for maximum recovery, 24 Speed EVs allow Tentacruel to reach 266, outspeeding SubGyara, Dragonite, Tentacruel, while the remaining ones are added to Defense for additional bulk.
    Tentacruel really appreciates physical walls which can be good switch-ins to Landorus-T, Garchomp, Dragonite and status absorbers that don't care about Will-o-Wisp or a burn from Scald. Skarmory and Celebi are quite good partners. In fact, the former is an ideal check to physical sweepers, luring in Fire- and Water-type moves, while the latter does well taking out Electric- and Psychic-type Pokèmon.

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    Even if BW brought new special and mixed attackers, Skarmory can still do its job very well. Key resistances to Dragon, Bug, Grass, immunity to Ground, Poison, great Defense, both Spikes and Stealth Rock make it the ideal physical wall of a Balanced Rain team.
    As far as moveslots are concerned, Roost is a must because Skarmory needs a recovery which can be useful to wear out Life Orb users such as Tornadus and Metagross; Whirlwind stops threatening sweepers like Dragonite and shuffles for extra EH damage; Spikes + Stealth Rock are almost compulsory to Keldeo and Thundurus-T, ensuring some OHKOs and 2HKOs even to Bulky threats, like Latwins, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Dragonite, Blissey. The given EVs spread and an Impish Nature make Skarmory a quite good mixed wall and utility counter, checking Tornadus, Latios, Hydreigon, especially if Rain is up.
    Even if Politoed and Tentacruel do attract Electric-type moves, are great partners to have thanks to their useful resistances to Water and Fire. Moreover, the former summons rain, while the latter is a really good counter to Infernape and Keldeo. It also works very well with Celebi and Tentacruel because they can actually force the opponent to switch out thanks to Toxic and Perish Song.

    CONCLUSION​

    The team has been really successful at showing the potential of Keldeo + Thundurus-T offensive core. Thank you if you rate; I suggest you trying it on the ladder! It's a lot of fun to play with. Though no team is perfect, and this one certainty isn't. Just be careful when you're playing against the threatening Pokémon I wrote about below.

    THREAT LIST​

    [​IMG]• Non-choice variants of Kyurem-B are massive threats because can be good switch-ins to Water-type moves, also being great wall-breakers. However, Expert Belt allows Thundurus-T to OHKO Kyurem-B with Focus Blast, while Stealth Rock are required to kill it with Keldeo.
    [​IMG]• Abomasnow can be a threatening auto-weather inducer, since it can OHKO Politoed with Wood Hammer, 2HKO Celebi and Skarmory with Blizzard. Stealth Rock, Spikes and Secret Sword are the best ways to win the weather war against hail teams.
    [​IMG]• LO Jolteon can be quite difficult to stop if it carries Signal Beam, which allows it to 2HKO Celebi, while Politoed, Skarmory, Tentacruel and Keldeo are OHKOed by Thunder. The only way to revenge-kill it is going for Surf with Keldeo. However, it's as rare as a tasty school lunch.
    [​IMG]• Calm Mind and Choice Specs Latios can be problematic due to his significantly high Special Attack stat. Even if Celebi and Skarmory are quite good switch-ins to the Choice set, the CM one can be really threatening. Luckily, it's not very common.

    EXPORT TO TEXT​

    Show Hide
    Politoed (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
    - Scald
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Hypnosis

    Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 8 HP / 252 SAtk / 248 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Thunder
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Focus Blast
    - Grass Knot

    Keldeo-Resolute @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Surf
    - Hydro Pump
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Secret Sword

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    - U-turn
    - Psychic
    - Recover
    - Perish Song

    Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 24 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Substitute
    - Rapid Spin

    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Roost
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Whirlwind
  2. dcae

    dcae naughty list

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,173
    Hey there! This is a quality team you have constructed, and that is shown by your peak SpD success with, so congratulations. Since this is already a solid team, my rate will be short. You listed Kyurem B as a problem: it tends to be a general rain weakness. Taking a look at your team, the non Sub set can set up on two pokes: Tenta and Politoed. To reduce Politoed's setupness, I recommend try to fit Focus Blast somewhere in the moveset. This can catch Kyurem on the switch and then KO it on the next turn, while also giving you an option against Steels.

    Your team seems to have problems with CM pokes in general due to your exclusive use of the Special attacking type. This problem, however, cannot be solved but with the addition of a new poke, which would upset the balance of your team. The use of Perish Song on Celebi was a smart idea, allowing it to cover these threats much more easily. On the subject of Celebi, I noticed that you ran Sassy nature. I would recommend using 20 Speed EVs with Calm nature to outspeed all variants of Scizor and Ttar, while maintaining high special bulk. Uturn coming from Celebi isn't exactly going to OHKO anything soon, so the slight lowering of damage is not very harmful at all.

    Your final poke is a Skarmory, which is nice to see. Looking at the moveset, I noticed you lack Brave Bird. This makes your Skarmory complete Taunt bait. Now, seeing as your team lacks a spinblocker, Spikes can be spun away easily by your opponent. This is why I recommend trying out Brave Bird over Spikes.

    Overall, this is a great team and I don't have much else in the way of advice. Also, great RMT presentation, very impressive formatting and pictures. Hope I helped and good luck!

    Tl;dr
    tl;dr (open)
    Focus Blast on Politoed
    20 Spe EVs and Calm nature on Celebi
    Brave Bird > Spikes
  3. Hypercut

    Hypercut

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    225
    Hey bobobo
    First of all, congrats for your peak in Showdown and the #11 position in PO, this team is very nice, and pretty solid, i especially like the SubtoxicCruel because can be problematic, especially for example Jellicent, 'cause this cruel wins the 1 vs 1 against him with toxic, so this is good.

    I have just two things to say for Celebi. I prefer Baton Pass > U-turn for one reason: Pursuit. Tyranitar it's a trouble when Celebi it's on the field, 'cause he can pursuit you and finish Celebi, especially the CB, that it's very dangerous for him, so with Baton Pass you can switch without fear, and for example sending Keldeo, so you can do random damage to another Pokèmon with Stabs. Now, when you have Baton Pass, it's pretty useless taking Perish Song, so you can replace it with Giga Drain, that help against Rotom-W, Keldeo and other stuff.

    Now, it's time for Politoed. Not much to say, standard spread for the Scarfer, but i don't like Hypnosis, because it has a lower chance to hit, and can get you in trouble. So, you can replace it with Perish Song, that can help you against Baton Pass teams an so on.

    Hope it helps, and Good Luck!

    Tl;Dr

    Show Hide
    @Celebi
    Baton Pass > U-Turn
    Giga Drain > Perish Song

    @Politoed
    Perish Song > Hypnosis
  4. MisterBobobo

    MisterBobobo

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2010
    Messages:
    24
    @ Dcae: I totally agree with you about Celebi and Skarmory, but I don't really think Focus Blast from Timid Politoed will deal too much to Kyurem-B [252 SpA Politoed Focus Blast vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 224-264 (55.3 - 65.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO]; anyway, thank you so much for your rate, I appreciate it ^^
    @ ¬Itachi: Thanks, I'll test out Baton Pass > U-turn on Celebi, seems like a good idea to me; as for Politoed, I know Hypnosis's accuracy is quite low and it could be unreliable in some situations, but the sleep status is powerful as it can be a good chance to incapacitate quite fast threats, such as Ninetales and Kyurem-B.
  5. Joeyboy

    Joeyboy Check out my Youtube channel! JoeyboyGames!
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,426
    This rmt exudes style, honestly those pictures are incredible, particularly Thund's and Keldeo's.

    This is kind of a quick rate because I've got a lot of school work, but damn this team deserves a rate :) So your Kyu-B weakness is probably there to stay, it just takes advantage of rain teams too well. One thing I did notice is that Specially Defensive Jirachi kind of handles your main threats as well as anything can hope to. I suggest replacing Skarmory for the Specially Defensive Jirachi set. While Spikes are useful, your lack of spinblocker and the awesome utility Jirachi brings should more than make up for that.

    First off Specially Defensive Jirachi is a great switch-in to non-banded Kyu-B's. It takes less than 50% from Fusion Bolt and resists the common Dragon+Ice-type coverage that usually come along with it. If Kyu-B is running Earth Power it can still take at least one with its sizable bulk and will always be able to scare it out thanks to Iron Head, plus if it has Earth Power that means it has one less coverage or no Substitute. It has reliably recovery with Wish+Protect so it can continue to switch-in. Jirachi also makes a top-notch switch-in to Abomasnow and Latios, resisting common moves and utilizing Iron Head to finish them off. Jirachi can even check Jolteon thanks to its high Special Defense though Thunders are sure to hurt. Jirachi has a lot of the same qualities as Specially Defensive Skarmory, checking things like Tornadus, Latios, and Hydreigon arguable better.

    Now with this change I recommend replacing Perish Song on Celebi for Stealth Rock. Jirachi really needs all 4 moveslots to adequately check all the necessary 'mons. The loss of Perish Song is annoying but I believe the pros outweigh the cons. Namely the ability to better handle Kyu-B and Latios. Though you could always try Stealth Rock over Protect on Jirachi if you don't like lossing Perish Song's utility.

    Sets (open)
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 224 SDef / 252 HP / 32 Spd
    Gentle Nature
    - Iron Head
    - Thunder
    - Wish
    - Protect / Stealth Rock
  6. Kidogo

    Kidogo

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    462
    Cool team--really similar to my current laddering team in fact, in lineup at least (and I peaked #2 with that, so the core obviously works). Just have a few comments:

    Politoed's set is kinda weird. I dont really see the need for two water attacks, and toed has a lot of cool options it can run. Similarly, hpynosis is iffy in my mind--sure it can be useful once in a while, but I generally wouldn't want to ever be risking my weather inducer to a 60% chance of hitting my move. Hpump/ibeam is set in my mind but here are some other good options: psychic, toxic, encore, perish song, even assorted hidden powers (grass is cool for a stronger hit vs waters, electric makes a nice gyara check--which you lack--bug is really cool for hitting bi hard, which keldeo appreciates). I'd probably go with encore / psychic--encore on a scarfmon is really nice, since it means stuff like subCMlatias can never sweep you, as you can jsut encore the sub/CM and go to something to toxic/phaze them without fear of a boosted hit. Meanwhile, you actually seem kinda weak to toxicroak--particularly if you swap skarmory out, LO SD croak gets a clean 6-0 with rocks up. psychic is a cool option since a lot of them will switch into you, thinking you pose no threat.

    Not a lot to add about thundy, I'd maybe try out hp bug > ice--most of what hp ice is hitting is faster than modest thundy anway, and ebelt HP ice manages 47% max on SpDbi--as it is, that thing literally walls your entire team. This is particularly useful since keldeo NEEDS celebi gone to sweep.

    Keldeo is standard but good, i love that set.

    Yeah the only comment on celebi is BP >uturn, escaping from pursuit is such a godsend especially given that this bi is fully SpD. IDK even if you need to give up psong here--obviously you dont want to use psong and then BP, but i've used them both before on the same set and it's generally fine. If not, yeah go with SR on bi to free up a slot for the steel.

    Tenta is fine, my only comment is that I believe you get more efficient HP recovery relative to substitute health loss with 248 HP EVs--not a big deal, but this hypothetically should let you make a sub every other turn without HP loss.

    Hmm. Yeah if any team member were to be changed, I'd suggest skarm. First of all, I'm eh about SpD skarm--he's meant to be a physical wall imo, his typing is much more conducive to that. Also, I really appreciate brave bird on there to do the damage he needs to vs stuff he doesnt want to phase out--lucario, breloom, and toxicroak come to mind, for instance. I don't really see this team as needing spikes since you deal with most grounded stuff p well, so I'd put it there unless you can get a slot free. Alternatively, the rachi suggestion above sounds good as well. I'd probably suggest using SpD rachi then and def celebi.

    Nice team and congrats on the peak, hope my comments helped!
  7. Funkasaurus

    Funkasaurus VIRUS
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Messages:
    659
    Hey there,

    Nice team. Keldeo is great BW2 mon as it is capable to revenge kill and clean up with relative ease. I feel that the support your team provides can be improved. With that said, I recommend using Ferrothorn over your Skarmory. Ferrothorn easily sets ups entry hazards and can take physical hits like Skarmory. However, what makes Ferrothorn better for this team is that it can take special hits as well. Ferrothorn is also good at taking care of the threats you listed. Kyurem-B, Jolteon, Latios, and Abomasnow are all easily handled by Ferrothorn, with their hits easily tanked and being Leech Seeded / Gyro Balled back. On top of checking those threats you listed, Ferrothorn also provides Leech Seed support for your team. Leech Seed helps Ferrothorn heal itself and things like Politoed and Keldeo if they happen to be low on hit points. With this said, Ferrothorn is an ideal fit to replace Skarmory. Next, I recommend using a Choice Specs Politoed over your current Politoed set. Since Keldeo is holding a Choice Scarf and doing the revenge killing, having Politoed hold a Choice Scarf seems rather redundant. While holding Choice Specs, Politoeds gains the ability to break through walls, firing off Choice Specs boosted, rain boosted, STAB Hydro Pumps obliterating anything that wishes to combat it. This is, of course, excluding Water Absorbers like Jellicent, but they are easily handled by Thundurus-T. Lastly, I recommend a few changes to your Celebi set. Like others have mentioned, the use of Giga Drain and Baton Pass over U-Turn and Perish Song and the use of a Calm nature. Baton Pass prevents Celebi from getting Pursuited from slower Choice Band trappers like Scizor or Tyranitar. Having Celebi around longer to prevent a Landorus-i sweep would benefit your team greatly as without it, Landorus becomes a potent threat to the team if it gets to +2 Speed. If you choose to make this change, using a Calm nature would make more sense as you won't have a physical attacking move and lowering speed would not be necessary.

    Sets (open)

    Politoed
    Choice Scarf --> Choice Specs

    Celebi
    Sassy --> Calm
    Perish Song --> Giga Drain
    U-turn --> Baton Pass

    Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Spikes
    - Leech Seed
    - Gyro Ball
    - Stealth Rock


    Good luck.
  8. TransparentOpacity

    TransparentOpacity

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    139
    Hey bobobobobobo. I tried playing with this team and noticed right away that bolt/beam is super effective against your whole team. I actually got swept by a Blissey who was using thunder/ice beam. I would switch around for a long time trying to get Keledeo in safely, since that's the only pokemon who could do anything to it, and when I finally switched in to an ice beam, they would just switch out to their keledeo counter.

    To fix this, I would replace tentacruel with forretress, as he is neutral to electric and resists ice. He still benefits from rain, due to his only weakness being fire, and he can spin and set up t spikes/stealth rock.

    With forretress, you really don't need skarmory either, so you can replace him for someone else. Toxicroak benefits from rain, I would probably go with him, as your team severely lacks physical attacks.
  9. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    565
    Okai, everyone already said a lot of things, but i dont think anyone already mentioned a mixed set for thundurus. Imo relying on focus blast is always bad if said pokemon can also run superpower, it misses less times and also assure you a ko against tyranitar and also hits blissey which does seem an issue somewhat. In addiction to that, i dont really see the need of grass knot which was only hitting gastrodon and tyranitar; i really suggest you to use giga drain on celebi for gastrodon (and rotom-w) so you wont miss that move at all. Instead of that i think you can make a great use of u-turn; this will really hurt celebi which is very very common and can give you issues to politoed, thundurus, tentacruel, your own celebi. Not only that, u-turn will give you momentum and will form a nice core with celebi. Of course if you do so put Naive nature on it.

    4- Atk Expert Belt Thundurus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 230-274 (56.93 - 67.82%)

    Hitting celebi in the switch in for 60% damage is really good in my opinion.
    I also support baton pass instead of u-turn on your celebi, as well as ferrothorn which seems better to me thanks to its eletric resistance, but i can understand the use of skarmory anyway.
    An another thing you may want to try is a specs politoed instead of your scarf one; to me you dont need the revenge killing capability of politoed, but with the choice specs you can avoid choice band tyranitar to either crunch or pursuit you and win the weather war; hydro pump coming from a choice specs set is considerably stronger, adn to an extent it will also help you dealing with sun teams, because sp def ninetales wont be able to switch in often. As the moves you can try Ice beam / Hydro pump / Focus blast / Hidden power grass. You may want to use timid nature to outspeed Breloom and Dragonite or a more bulky spread (around 194 speed) to take hits better, but its up to you.

    relevant calcs: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. +1 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 336-396 (87.04 - 102.59%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales in sun: 252-296 (72 - 84.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Hope this helps (also hope to not have repeted the same things)
  10. MisterBobobo

    MisterBobobo

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2010
    Messages:
    24
    @ Joeyboy: I agree with you as Jirachi is such a good check to lots of threatening wall-breakers such as Latios, Kyurem-B, but I really that Skarm and I must say it really works; when I'm against someone who doesn't have a spinner (or quite weak spinners), Skarmory is the MVP as Starmie and Donphan are usually lured and revenge-killed by Keldeo and Thundurus-T; so I think I need Spikes as SubCruel and Celebi are really good at shuffling for extra EH damage. Anyway, I also used to go for Jirachi > Skarmory and Ferrothorn > Celebi; they were good, but they lost some surprise effect and I really like it.
    @ Kidogo: Thanks, I know Politoed's set is kinda weird but the only thing it must do is acting as a good weather-inducer, so I went for Hydro Pump and Scald to deal quite good damage to Ninetales and Tyranitar, while Hypnosis is useful to disable Abomasnow nigh permanently. However, Encore is a good idea to check Toxicroak as you said, so I think I'll test it out. As for HP Bug Thundurus-T, I used to go for HP Flying and I must say it's really good, as it can also hit Amoonguss very hard.
    @ Funkasaurus: Choice Specs Politoed and Ferrothorn are good additions to my team, but I think my team could have a weakness to Terrakion, especially if it manages to set up a Substitute. As for Celebi, I think I'll definetly go for a Calm Nature and 24 Spd EVs; anyway, Psychic is very useful to hit Breloom, Toxicroak and Conkeldurr, as they could be big threats to my team; if I go for Giga Drain > Perish Song, CM Latias and Jirachi are too problematic.
    @ TransparentOpacity: Even if that kind of Blissey is definetly uncommon, I know that BoltBeam users like Kyurem-B are huge threats. Forretress and Ferrothorn are good ideas to deal with them, but I don't really like them as they're too slow and can become set-up baits to even some of the Water- and Grass-types they're supposed to counter.
    @ Neliel: I've already tried using Superpower Thundurus-T as Chansey and Blissey are always very annoying; anyway, it won't deal too much to Chansey [0- Atk Expert Belt Thundurus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 257-305 (36.5 - 43.32%) -- guaranteed 3HKO]. As for U-turn, I think Hidden Power [Flying] could be a better idea as it's really a good coverage move against Grass-types. Choice Specs Politoed could be a good teammate to Keldeo as it functions as the Landorus + Terrakion offensive core, hitting his counters such as Starmie and Latias quite hard so that Keldeo can sweep during late-game; anyway, this team is quite slow and I really need Scarf Politoed to check Terrakion, Heatran and Infernape.

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