Gen 5 :] (BW OU)

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
Hello everyone. For those of you that don't know me, I'm Finchinator. I've played competitive pokemon for three years now and most of my time doing so has been spent on PO and their forums, but I certainly don't pull a blind eye to what's going on here either. While I am not too established a battler or user on Smogon, I'd like to RMT this BW OU team as it's one of my favorite teams and BW OU is my best tier currently (although I also specialize in XY and DPP). Without further ado, I present to you the team:

At a Glance
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Teambuilding Process

Going into teambuilding, my ultimate goal was to craft an offensive rain team centered around the potent Specs Politoed. Thanks to Drizzle, this otherwise underwhelming pokemon is able to deal damage like no other in the Black & White Overused metagame. Specs Modest Hydro Pump in Rain is insane while coverage moves like Ice Beam and Focus Blast are also noteworthy for hitting things Hydro fails to.


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With Specs Politoed setting the temp for an offensive rain team, I had a plethora of options for the next pokemon, which would define the goal of the team and how my team would play out. I elected to make my team based around hitting hard more so than sweeping and hazards, so Specs Tornadus was my choice. With superb speed and special attack alongside Hurricane + Focus Blast + U-turn, there is minimal downside to running Specs Tornadus on BW rain besides the weakness to Stealth Rocks.


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Now that I have a general idea about my team, I had to make sure that I wasn't weak to anything in the metagame. The first problem that stood out to me was that both of my first two pokemon, Politoed and Tornadus, had an electric weakness, making pokemon like Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, and other electrics problematic. The usual solution to this would be slapping on a Ferrothorn or Celebi, but since I aimed to build this team around a balance of synergetic hard-hitters and not hazards or defensive pokemon, I elected to use a lesser common, but equally effective pokemon: Life Orb Gastrodon. This slug catches a lot of people off-guard with the offensive presence it has while also acting as a tank that can wall electrics and check pokemon like Keldeo.


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With the offensive core of this team forming and some weaknesses still remaining, it became evident that my forth member would have to fulfill a pretty crucial role on the team in order for my remaining two members to maximize their offensive potential. Some of my weaknesses at this point happened to be dragons or psychics, like Latias, Latios, and Reuniclus, so Specially Defensive Jirachi appeared to be the best fit for the team as it didn't totally ruin momentum like some defensive pokemon (see: Chansey offense, lol), it gave me Stealth Rock, it gave me wish support for healing offensive pokemon that lack recovery, it gave me paralysis support for slower hard-hitters like Politoed, and it gave me Stealth Rocks. Therefore, I elected to go with SpDef Jirachi as my forth team member.


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Now that I have offensive and defensive fronts covered to an extent, I thought that a scarfer would be necessary for revenge killing and potentially checking some physically offensive threats that Jirachi wasn't capable of dealing with, like Garchomp. Landorus-T immediately emerged as the best choice here because it gave speedy intimidate, u-turn, powerful edgequake, and a fighting resist + ground immunity. The niches that Landorus-T has are just so convenient for the team that I couldn't pass it up, so there wasn't much of a debate over this spot and there are no alternatives.


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With one member left, I knew I wanted to finish out the team with a bang. What better way to do this than with a Huge Power Bunny? That's right, my last member was Azumarill, the choice banded variant. This puts an end to the sweet hard-hitting nature of this team that makes breaking through bulkier teams, or walls in general, possible. In addition, STAB, rain-boosted, powerful Aqua Jet is able to revenge kill offensive threats or damage faster pokemon while Waterfall 2hkos everything it hits neutrally and Superpower + Ice Punch round out the set well.

In Depth

(F) @

Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 124 HP / 252 SAtk / 132 Spd
IVs: 30 HP / 30 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Psychic
- Focus Blast

Specs Politoed is an absolute monster, as previously mentioned. The EV spread allows Politoed to hit 209 speed, which is a creep on Rotom-W, base 85s, and slower pokemon, while the rest is invested in Special Attack, of course, and HP with a modest nature. Hydro Pump is the STAB move that has a massive damage output*. Ice Beam is the first complimentary coverage move that hits grass types like Celebi and dragon types like Dragonite. Focus Blast is for steel types that resist water, like Ferrothorn and the rare Empoleon, while it also hits other pokemon like incoming Tyranitar, too. Finally, Hidden Power Grass or Psychic are both viable moves for the remaining slot and which I use generally depends on the opponent and how I'm feeling at the time, specifically the former. Hidden Power Grass hits water types like Gastrodon, but isn't generally needed as Rotom-W and Gyarados are 2hko'd by Hydro Pump after rocks. Psychic hits Tentacruel and Toxicroak, which both can be somewhat problematic to a majority of my team members, so this move has its merits when facing specific threats, too.

*Calcs to show how strong Specs Hydro Pump in Rain hits
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 131-155 (43 - 50.9%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi in Rain: 271-321 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 242-288 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Rain: 150-177 (49.6 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales in Sun: 252-296 (72 - 84.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom in Rain: 284-335 (108.3 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B in Rain: 206-243 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


(M) @

Trait: Prankster
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- U-turn
- Sleep Talk​

Specs Tornadus is another powerful special attacker that fits into the team quite well. Hurricane is STAB that is very spammable and hits grass types that the water types of the team struggle against. Focus Blast is able to compliment Hurricane almost perfectly as it hits steel and rock types, like Heatran, Tyranitar, and Skarmory. U-turn is able to gain momentum off the predicted switch into one of the opposing pokemon that checks Tornadus when spamming Hurricane isn't called-for; a great example of when to use U-turn is when the opposing team has a (Specially Defensive) Jirachi, Chansey, Blissey, or (Specially Defensive and healthy) Rotom-W. Finally, I elected to use Sleep Talk as the last move to absorb sleep from Breloom, Amoonguss, and Venusaur while potentially surprising them with Sleep Talk the following turn, or just being able to use whatever move it draws.

(M) @

Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 144 HP / 152 Def / 200 SAtk / 12 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Surf
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Recover

Life Orb Gastrodon is a surprise, tankish hard-hitting slug that fits in as the third team member. With Storm Drain, nice special attack, investment, and life orb, Gastrodon catches a lot of pokemon for 2hkos or ohkos when it gets a chance to fire off an attack. The EVs let me tank 2 Secret Swords from Expert Belt or Scarf Keldeo after rocks*. Surf is the water STAB that is generally rain boosted and spammable at times. Earth Power is the secondary STAB move that can hit grounded electric types, which it also generally walls, and steel types. Ice Beam is the coverage move of the set that hits grass types like Celebi and dragon types like Latios. Recover is the final move that provides Gastrodon with a way to keep healthy and have a fair amount of survivability.

*Calcs to show that Gastrodon tanks two Secret Swords from Expert Belt or Scarf Keldeo after rocks
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 144 HP / 152 Def Gastrodon: 156-184 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


Currently testing a different Gastrodon that's more defensive thanks to Jirachee's suggestion
Slug (Gastrodon-East) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 168 HP / 232 Def / 108 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Toxic
- Recover

@

Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 236 SDef / 20 Spd
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Iron Head
- Body Slam Thunder*
- Wish
- Stealth Rock

Jirachi is the one "wall" on my team and it isn't too much of a buzzkill for momentum or the nature of the team, either, so it fits in well considering it provides a crucial resist to dragons, specifically the Latis. Iron Head is more or less mandatory on Jirachi's physical variants as it is great for STAB and abusing Serene Grace. Body Slam is for paralysis support and crippling offensive pokemon that may threaten my team or attempt to sweep me. Wish is for recovery of Jirachi and other team members that lack recovery like Politoed. Finally, Stealth Rock is the best move in the game and the residual damage it provides is key for making 2hkos into ohkos, 3hkos into 2hkos, etc.

*Thunder has been added over Body Slam thanks to Harsha's rate.

(M) @

Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
IVs: 30 HP / 30 Def
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- U-turn

Landorus-T is the teams' fifth member and Choice Scarfer. Obviously, the main purpose of Landorus-T is revenge killing pokemon that pose threats to my team like Dragonite, Terrakion, and Lucario. With base 145 attack, Landorus-T is able to do sufficient damage despite lacking a life orb or choice band, so running Choice Scarf to give it revenge killing capabilities makes Landorus-T the perfect pokemon for this slot. Earthquake is STAB and hits steel, electric, rock, and fire types hard. Stone Edge is complimentary coverage for Earthquake and is specifically for flying types that are immune to Earthquake. Hidden Power Ice is an additional coverage move for opposing Landorus-T, Gliscor, Dragonite, Garchomp, and others. Finally, U-turn is for momentum, predicting the opponent to switch to a wall, and hitting the occasional Latios or Latias that attempts to switch into and tank another attack.

(F) @

Trait: Huge Power
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 44 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Superpower
- Ice Punch Double Edge*

Choice Banded Azumarill is far too uncommon in BW OU as it's quite the potent abuser of rain on the physical side. The spread allows me to maximize attack and practically maximize HP while still being able to outpace Chansey and Blissey who are otherwise irksome to the special attackers of the team. Priority STAB Aqua Jet and powerful STAB Waterfall hit harder than anything in the rain, with the latter 2hko'ing anything that doesn't resist it. Superpower hits Ferrothorn and other miscellaneous threats. Finally, Ice Punch is for other grass types like Celebi and dragons like Dragonite.

*Double Edge has been added over Ice Punch thanks to Jirachee's rate.​

Brief Threat List

- Jellicent, specifically the SDef variants with Water Absorb that can fully wall Gastrodon and potentially tank a hit from Tornadus, is a pain to kill as Hurricane is the main method of damaging it that I have and can use often. Wisp + Taunt + Recover can really screw my team over and there isn't too much of a way to work around this besides getting Gastrodon in on a scald, using Hurricane until it's dead, or my opponent playing Jellicent too aggressively and risking it unnecessarily at some point.

- Gyarados, specifically variants that can either threaten Gastrodon or once Gastrodon is weakened, can be an issue to my team as it can tank a choice locked water move (but not multiple) and set up or set up on a forced switch. Landorus-T can outpace it at +1 generally, but Stone Edge isn't an OHKO at full and Landorus-T isn't surviving a Waterfall in rain, either, so unless I keep Gastrodon alive, paralyze it with Jirachi, or kill it with powerful boosted attacks before it can sweep me, Gyarados can be a problem to me and has the ability to sweep me given proper circumstances.

- Rotom-W can be a bitch to deal with and kill, but it isn't really a true threat to my team as Gastrodon hard walls it and it takes a ton trying to switch into and wall Politoed or Tornadus. With this being said, Rotom-W is able to check a majority of my team (Politoed, Tornadus, Landorus-T, and Jirachi), so it wouldn't be fair of me not to note it in this section despite Gastrodon walling it (although Gastrodon doesn't break it effortlessly as it lacks HP Grass or Toxic).

- Tentacruel can be an issue to me as it benefits from the rain my team sets up while being able to tank attacks from Politoed, Jirachi, and Azumarill (not well from Azumarill, though). The real problem is if it's a Toxic Spikes variant as that makes Gastrodon, Politoed, and Azumarill crippled while it can still scald burn Jirachi and Tornadus. Overall, it's not too huge a threat, but it certainly is an annoyance.

Importable
Politoed (F) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 124 HP / 252 SAtk / 132 Spd
IVs: 30 HP / 30 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Focus Blast

Tornadus (M) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- U-turn
- Sleep Talk

Gastrodon (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 144 HP / 152 Def / 200 SAtk / 12 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Surf
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Recover

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 236 SDef / 20 Spd
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Iron Head
- Body Slam
- Wish
- Stealth Rock

Landorus-T (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 212 Spd
IVs: 30 HP / 30 Def
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- U-turn

Azumarill (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Huge Power
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 44 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Superpower
- Ice Punch


Replays of the Team

Shoutouts
Arsenal Arcanines 2014 (POCL Champs :])
US Central (SWCOP)
#Rage Channel.
Everyone who helped me test, build, and prepare for SmogTour and other tournaments in the past
All of my friends on PO
All of my friends here on Smogon
Farm League 2013-2014
Anyone I'm missing (tried to be general enough to cover everything, but I'm likely missing something)

Last Words

Thanks to everyone who read this as I know it's somewhat long and most of what I write is pretty boring. I hope that you guys like the team as I believe it is sort of creative and effective given a good match-up (I wouldn't bring this blindly into a match unless you're willing to risk one of various poor match-ups as that's the nature of BW2 OU, but it's pretty easy to figure out when to run it if you have a good gauge on your opponent's style). If you have any questions about the team, feel free to ask. If you have any suggestions for revisions, please leave a rate as I appreciate any constructive criticism and advice. Although my recent run in Smogon Tour playoffs has ended, I hope to continue to be part of this Smogon's tournament community in the future and I look forward to my future endeavors on this forum :]

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this is a pretty creative take on offensive rain in bw, which is generally the same 7 or 8 pokemon mashed together which always seems to work well, but i think the inherent problems with this team are as you said: matchup and bulky water-types. i'll give a few fixes, but at the end of the day, most of these changes will probably not sit as well with you as the original team, as changing any one pokemon can significantly impact the team as a whole.

that being said, i think thunder on jirachi is more or less mandatory. it hits all of the bulky water-types you've listed harder than you already do if you forgo a bit of speed and use a sassy nature. this helps a lot of things: it stops subdd gyarados from setting up on jirachi with ease, and it brings the added benefit of paralysis to jellicent and gengar (while it hits jellicent super-effectively, it's obviously not going to serve as a dependable means of getting rid of jellicent because of how bulky it is). if jirachi is in gengar 2hko range, thunder can be game-saving, as you no longer have to pray for an iron head crit.

in terms of other changes, i'm not really sure where to go although i can say that getting rid of either gastrodon or azumarill will probably give you an easier time against bulky water-types. i guess you could go celebi in gastrodon's place, with perhaps an offensive set carrying baton pass, but this can make you a bit liable to choice scarf tyranitar, so its effectiveness really depends heavily on the matchup. celebi is overall a more solid check to choice scarf keldeo though, so that's also a plus.

there's also the option of rotom-w in gastrodon's slot, as that checks more or less the same pokemon, but rotom-w provides electric-type stab to get rid of bulky waters with ease and volt switch to give you momentum. i think rotom-w is probably the worst bulky water-type in terms of defensive capabilities because it takes a fair chunk from secret sword and stealth rock wears it down due to volt switch momentum. i think this change is worth a try, though.

on the other hand, you could go with a bulk up breloom in azumarill's slot, as that provides a means of beating all of those bulky water-types and an additional threat in ferrothorn, though gyarados remains a problem as you'll only really have thunder on jirachi and stone edge on landorus-t to deal with it.

at the end of the day, any change you make will bring up new threats, so that's about as much as i can say. this team looks like it can be devastating against some styles of play (like passive sand, which is extremely common, for example), so i'm sure it works as you'd like it to in the matches you bring it to. hopefully my suggestions give you something to think about. congrats on tour playoffs—you played really well and i'm looking forward to seeing you play again next tour!
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
this is a pretty creative take on offensive rain in bw, which is generally the same 7 or 8 pokemon mashed together which always seems to work well, but i think the inherent problems with this team are as you said: matchup and bulky water-types. i'll give a few fixes, but at the end of the day, most of these changes will probably not sit as well with you as the original team, as changing any one pokemon can significantly impact the team as a whole.

that being said, i think thunder on jirachi is more or less mandatory. it hits all of the bulky water-types you've listed harder than you already do if you forgo a bit of speed and use a sassy nature. this helps a lot of things: it stops subdd gyarados from setting up on jirachi with ease, and it brings the added benefit of paralysis to jellicent and gengar (while it hits jellicent super-effectively, it's obviously not going to serve as a dependable means of getting rid of jellicent because of how bulky it is). if jirachi is in gengar 2hko range, thunder can be game-saving, as you no longer have to pray for an iron head crit.
First off, thanks for the rate and comments. I think this bit of advice is actually a great suggestion. If I had to guess why I had Body Slam over Thunder when using and RMTing this team, it'd probably be because I was a bit over paranoid over Thundurus-T as it usually poses a huge threat to rain teams (or at least some of my older builds). With that being said, being able to hit bulky waters for a bit more damage and ghosts certainly would come in handy. I haven't ever tested this suggestion, but just by thinking it through I am inclined to say it'd be best for the team, so I'll change it. Good catch.

in terms of other changes, i'm not really sure where to go although i can say that getting rid of either gastrodon or azumarill will probably give you an easier time against bulky water-types. i guess you could go celebi in gastrodon's place, with perhaps an offensive set carrying baton pass, but this can make you a bit liable to choice scarf tyranitar, so its effectiveness really depends heavily on the matchup. celebi is overall a more solid check to choice scarf keldeo though, so that's also a plus.

there's also the option of rotom-w in gastrodon's slot, as that checks more or less the same pokemon, but rotom-w provides electric-type stab to get rid of bulky waters with ease and volt switch to give you momentum. i think rotom-w is probably the worst bulky water-type in terms of defensive capabilities because it takes a fair chunk from secret sword and stealth rock wears it down due to volt switch momentum. i think this change is worth a try, though.

on the other hand, you could go with a bulk up breloom in azumarill's slot, as that provides a means of beating all of those bulky water-types and an additional threat in ferrothorn, though gyarados remains a problem as you'll only really have thunder on jirachi and stone edge on landorus-t to deal with it.

at the end of the day, any change you make will bring up new threats, so that's about as much as i can say. this team looks like it can be devastating against some styles of play (like passive sand, which is extremely common, for example), so i'm sure it works as you'd like it to in the matches you bring it to. hopefully my suggestions give you something to think about. congrats on tour playoffs—you played really well and i'm looking forward to seeing you play again next tour!
These are all realistic alternatives to what I currently have and that have pros and cons to each of them. There are many things that can be done to patch up one flaw, but they may open up another weakness or make a certain match-up less favorable as a byproduct. The variant I use of this team is in the OP, but I (more or less) agree with everything you're saying and the general fact that things can be tinkered around with to make the teams' weaknesses vary. Celebi stands out as the best option as it's often effective on rain teams and this team wouldn't be an exception to that, but Rotom-W and Breloom seem similarly effective.

To add onto the list of potential changes, one of the first variants of this team (of which I used upwards of 8 months ago briefly) had LO Starmie + SDef Ferrothorn replacing LO Gastrodon + SDef Jirachi. This allows me to have rapid spin support for Tornadus, still have a stealth rocker + sdef steel type, and potentially be able to break bulky waters a tad easier with analytic Starmie and Ferrothorn's attacks. However, Starmie isn't much of a check to Keldeo (especially in the rain) and Ferrothorn lacks the means of recovery Jirachi possess, so I eventually stopped using this variant.

Thanks for the rate and you bring up some really solid points.
 

Jirachee

phoenix reborn
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
I would advise against changing Gastrodon for Rotom-W, because that makes you infinitely weaker to Electric types, Rotom-W and Thundurus-T especially. Having 3 Waters generally does that to your team but Gastrodon pretty much fixes that issue thanks to its typing / ability.

I think your team would really benefit from running a more defensive Gastrodon variant with Toxic. Life Orb Rain boosted Surf is sexy but at the end of the day you want your Gastrodon to be able to counterplay things like Rotom-W which the Life Orb variant actually has a hard time doing. Keep in mind that Rotom-W (especially the Specially Defensive variant) doesn't really care about Gastrodon's attacks and will just burn you and heal with Pain Split. You are only stalling it a little. Having Toxic allows you to cripple it and actually forces it out. It also doesn't mind the burn as much because of Leftovers as opposed to Life Orb wearing you down faster. Gyarados won't switch in freely either! I think that having a set harder to wear down also helps you since you have no counterplay to most common Spikers.

I also think your team might benefit more from a scarfed Politoed. It's a much better Gyarados answer than Landorus-T and also helps against a lot of threats to Rain teams, for example Starmie or Sub CM Latias. I think you won't really miss the wallbreaking power seeing as your team already has plenty with Tornadus and Azumarill. Since you don't need 2 Scarfers, I would change Landorus-T with a SD Lum Berry Garchomp. I think it adds a lot to your team; gives you a great early game Rotom-W counterplay, something that owns Tentacruel and punishes its spins, and more importantly, something that can put a big hurt into a random bulky Water or a Ferrothorn. It also benefits from rain with Aqua Tail to hit some of its most common switch ins, like Landorus-T or Gliscor.

One last thing you could try is Double Edge on Azumarill over Ice Punch to hit Waters harder. Ice Punch isn't that useful of a move anyway and DE hits a lot of its targets almost as hard.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
I would advise against changing Gastrodon for Rotom-W, because that makes you infinitely weaker to Electric types, Rotom-W and Thundurus-T especially. Having 3 Waters generally does that to your team but Gastrodon pretty much fixes that issue thanks to its typing / ability.
Yea, if I was to add Rotom-W over Gastrodon, I'd have to fit in at least a Ferrothorn or Celebi somewhere, too, which would be a pretty big change as not much else wants to go.

I think your team would really benefit from running a more defensive Gastrodon variant with Toxic. Life Orb Rain boosted Surf is sexy but at the end of the day you want your Gastrodon to be able to counterplay things like Rotom-W which the Life Orb variant actually has a hard time doing. Keep in mind that Rotom-W (especially the Specially Defensive variant) doesn't really care about Gastrodon's attacks and will just burn you and heal with Pain Split. You are only stalling it a little. Having Toxic allows you to cripple it and actually forces it out. It also doesn't mind the burn as much because of Leftovers as opposed to Life Orb wearing you down faster. Gyarados won't switch in freely either! I think that having a set harder to wear down also helps you since you have no counterplay to most common Spikers.
That's a great suggestion and I'll certainly try it when I get the chance to. I sort of rolled with the idea of LO Gastrodon once it hit the teambuilder and never looked back because it's surprisingly effective, but a defensive variant may suit the team a bit better. As you said, my current Gastrodon isn't doing much to SDef Rotom-W or Gyarados* and Toxic could help with crippling it, Jellicent, Gyarados, etc.

*Calc of LO Rain Surf vs SDef Rotom-W and Gyarados
200+ SpA Life Orb Gastrodon Surf vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 88-105 (29 - 34.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Storm Drain) +1 200+ SpA Life Orb Gastrodon Surf vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 133-156 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

200+ SpA Life Orb Gastrodon Surf vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados in Rain: 126-148 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- 88.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 200+ SpA Life Orb Gastrodon Surf vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados in Rain: 187-222 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yea, Rotom-W's attacks cannot do anything to Gastrodon, but it can burn Gastrodon and toy around with Pain Split while it survives multiple Surfs. Gyarados cannot switch into Gastrodon's Surf well, but it can do decently in a 1v1 scenario as it tanks two Surfs in most situations.


While I am not too certain on what I will do, the most likely change would be making Gastrodon this:
Slug (Gastrodon-East) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 168 HP / 232 Def / 108 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Toxic
- Recover

The spread allows Gastrodon to survive tank 2 HP Ices from Modest +2 Thundurus-T, tank 2 LO HP Flyings from Timid +0 Thundurus-T, (usually) tank 2 LO Focus Blasts from Timid +0 Thundurus-T, tank 2 Bounces from Jolly +1 Gyarados, tank 2 EQs from max attack Landorus-T, tank 2 EQs from CB Adamant Dragonite (generally predict Jirachi, so they're too scared to Outrage lock), tank 2 of any physical attack from max attack Garchomp, tank 2 U-turns from CB Adamant Scizor (although they generally U-turn out to something problematic), 2 Shadow Balls from LO Gengar, and two Secret Swords from Keldeo (even 75% chance to do so from Specs Keldeo).

Calcs on the previously mentioned moves:
+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 168 HP / 108 SpD Gastrodon: 189-223 (46.6 - 55%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Flying vs. 168 HP / 108 SpD Gastrodon: 168-199 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 168 HP / 108 SpD Gastrodon: 191-226 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 168 HP / 232+ Def Gastrodon: 189-223 (46.6 - 55%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 168 HP / 232+ Def Gastrodon: 166-196 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 168 HP / 232+ Def Gastrodon: 171-202 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 168 HP / 232+ Def Gastrodon: 184-217 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 168 HP / 232+ Def Gastrodon: 153-181 (37.7 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 168 HP / 232+ Def Gastrodon: 177-208 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 168 HP / 108 SpD Gastrodon: 177-211 (43.7 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 168 HP / 232+ Def Gastrodon: 129-153 (31.8 - 37.7%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 168 HP / 232+ Def Gastrodon: 193-228 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Alternatively, I could keep Gastrodon as it currently is and just use Toxic over Ice Beam or Earth Power, but I'm not too big a fan of losing out on one of the coverage moves on offensive Gastrodon, so I'd be more inclined to go all the way to make it defensive, but I'll test things out probably and see.

I also think your team might benefit more from a scarfed Politoed. It's a much better Gyarados answer than Landorus-T and also helps against a lot of threats to Rain teams, for example Starmie or Sub CM Latias. I think you won't really miss the wallbreaking power seeing as your team already has plenty with Tornadus and Azumarill. Since you don't need 2 Scarfers, I would change Landorus-T with a SD Lum Berry Garchomp. I think it adds a lot to your team; gives you a great early game Rotom-W counterplay, something that owns Tentacruel and punishes its spins, and more importantly, something that can put a big hurt into a random bulky Water or a Ferrothorn. It also benefits from rain with Aqua Tail to hit some of its most common switch ins, like Landorus-T or Gliscor.

One last thing you could try is Double Edge on Azumarill over Ice Punch to hit Waters harder. Ice Punch isn't that useful of a move anyway and DE hits a lot of its targets almost as hard.
I've never tried Scarf Politoed on this team, but I've used it quite a lot in the past on other Rain builds to decent success and I suppose HP Electric / Ice Beam / Hydro Pump / Perish Song or Encore Scarf Politoed could be a viable alternative for this team, but I like the fact that Landorus-T gives me a fast U-turner, too, so it gives me abilities to get Azumarill, Tornadus, and Gastrodon in when it forces switches if played properly. In addition, if I was to change Politoed to Scarf and Landorus-T to Garchomp, I'd have a pretty noteworthy weakness to fighting types like Lucario and Terrakion, so I'd probably use SR Lando-T here and then add Protect or U-turn to Jirachi over Stealth Rock, if anything. With that being said, this is an interesting idea, but I still feel Scarf Landorus-T is a bit more effective and safe for the team, so going to stick with that.

Finally, Double Edge Azumarill is cool and hits hard when you're not too sure what to predict or you want to hit something like Celebi hard, but not lock into an easily wallable Ice Punch, so I'll use that over Ice Punch. Good catch and thank you for the thoughtful rate.
 
Finchinator

ur team is absolutely mauled by any half decent sun team and gastrodon here just seems like ur attempting to be cute as opposed to practical. latias similarly fulfills the role of a rotom-w check, albeit trappable, and covers thundurus-t and keldeo to a better extent while still being able to help against the sun matchup. u also have practically no shot against any half decent stall team, so i reckon feraligatr is probably a better option than azumarill to maintain the aqua jetting volcarona/terrak cover poke and u can actually sd+crunch against celebi and jellicent. with these changes though u still can't fix the sciz weak and u still lack a spinner, so i don't rly know what to say besides that the endearing lo gastro made this team inefficient. i mean, rain is rain and u can obviously overcome some matchups with the "send in drizzle and click water moves and hurricane" strat, but this team is no where near consistent and it never will be due to the lack of coherence in its construction. best of luck tho
 
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Finchinator

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Finchinator

ur team is absolutely mauled by any half decent sun team
I've honestly never had too much of an issue with most variants of sun (I guess Venu in sun can do some work if Jirachi is weak, I cannot get a weaken/cripple it, and it has the right set. Other sun abusers like Volcarona and Heatran aren't doing much and at best they'll get one kill off of something weakened later in the game). In practice it's generally been a "who can kill shit that the opponent needs quicker" kind of game against sun and they often lack something to withstand multiple hard hitting special attacks from team, but there's still plenty of room for the opponent to outplay me and leave me in a tight spot.

gastrodon here just seems like ur attempting to be cute as opposed to practical. latias similarly fulfills the role of a rotom-w check, albeit trappable, and similarly covers thundurus-t and keldeo to a better extent while still being able to help against the sun matchup.
I guess you could say that it's less practical and more "cute" as there are certainly better options that eliminate holes in my teams (Latias, a bulkier variant of Gastrodon, or a different bulky water), but the damage output and surprise factor that this set brings arguably compensates. A standard Latias would improve my match-up against sun while sacrificing only a bit against some variants of sand, so it's a realistic idea and I wouldn't rule this out.

u also have practically no shot against any half decent stall team, so i reckon feraligatr is probably a better option than azumarill to maintain the aqua jetting volcarona/terrak cover poke and u can actually sd+crunch against celebi and jellicent.
Stall teams with Jellicent+SDef Jirachi/Chansey or a similarly problematic core can shut me down, but some stall teams have to do a lot of playing around my teams' hard hitters, especially as the game draws out. If they can manage to do play around me when needed and keep what they need in tact, then they'll win; if not, they won't.

In regards to Feraligatr, this is actually a really cool idea that I never personally considered. Specifically, this helps with Jellicent which is one of the biggest problems to the team as an unexpected +2 Crunch kills it. The lack of off-the-bat power that Azumarill has would be missed, but Feraligatr gives me a concrete win condition and makes teams with Jellicent much less of an issue. So I'll certainly try out Feraligatr as I think it'd be a bit more valuable in this spot than Azumarill although both have their pros and cons.

With these changes though u still can't fix the sciz weak and u still lack a spinner, so i don't rly know what to say besides that the endearing lo gastro made this team inefficient. i mean, rain is rain and u can obviously overcome some matchups with the "send in drizzle and click water moves and hurricane" strat, but this team is no where near consistent and it never will be due to the lack of coherence in its construction. best of luck tho
While I don't believe there's much coherence lacking in the construction of this team, I do agree with most of the suggestions you previously stated and the logic behind them. Thanks for the rate.
 
latias will make this team one volt switch into ttar away from being absolutely destroyed by rotom-w. gastrodon abusing its presence as an opportunity to throw out some attacks that sand teams really don't like taking is preferable, especially when the weakness latias is supposed to address, sun, can be made pretty much a non-issue by using sharp beak rain dance tornadus.

i think some sort of bait politoed set would be better than specs. given your massive weakness to entry hazards (there's nothing easier to spike on than spdef jirachi) the less choice items the better, and you might catch a choice tar trying to pursuit you with a hydro pump, as well as maybe toxicing an unaware jellicent/gastrodon or psychicing an amoonguss/tentacruel/toxicroak. scald works too as an option to annoy ferrothorn, obviously focus blast isn't bad (and helps in the rare hail matchup) but i don't think you can afford to drop toxic or psychic. maybe over ice beam? actually now that i think about it, scald / psychic / focus blast / toxic @ expert belt is the best choice.

feraligatr is a good idea. the thing is that he's still not beating sand stall if the grass is amoonguss instead of celebi and tspikes really bother him. lum might be the best item here, it'll also give you an extra dance on jellicent.

nice team man
 
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Finchinator

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latias will make this team one volt switch into ttar away from being absolutely destroyed by rotom-w. gastrodon abusing its presence as an opportunity to throw out some attacks that sand teams really don't like taking is preferable, especially when the weakness latias is supposed to address, sun, can be made pretty much a non-issue by using sharp beak rain dance tornadus.
It's true that Rotom-W sand would be an issue with the addition of Latias, but at the same time it helps out vs sun, so it really depends if the person using the team thinks that trade off is worthwhile. If they do, then Latias is the better option; if not, Gastrodon.

In regards to Tornadus, I like keeping specs on it simply because of the damage output, but Sharp Beak doesn't compromise too much damage and Rain Dance would be an interesting way to check Sun, so I'll keep that in consideration, but Specs makes spamming Hurricane and hitting steels with Focus Blast a bit easier, so I'm inclined to stick with it. I've never really thought of, nor tried, Sharp Beak w/ Rain Dance, so I'll have to give it a go and see how well it does tbh.

i think some sort of bait politoed set would be better than specs. given your massive weakness to entry hazards (there's nothing easier to spike on than spdef jirachi) the less choice items the better, and you might catch a choice tar trying to pursuit you with a hydro pump, as well as maybe toxicing an unaware jellicent/gastrodon or psychicing an amoonguss/tentacruel/toxicroak. scald works too as an option to annoy ferrothorn, obviously focus blast isn't bad (and helps in the rare hail matchup) but i don't think you can afford to drop toxic or psychic. maybe over ice beam? actually now that i think about it, scald / psychic / focus blast / toxic @ expert belt is the best choice.
Honestly, I agree with the bit about lure Politoed being an option as the survivability of Specs is disappointing and there's no way it can break through things like Jellicent (HP Grass isn't 2hko'ing). If I were to change to a different build, I would probably use Hydro / Ice Beam / Toxic / Rest with Chesto Berry. Psychic does have its merits such as hitting Amoonguss, Tentacruel, Toxicroak, and Roserade, but Amoonguss is a free switch-in for Tornadus (Sleep Talk helps for absorbing Spore, too), Toxicroak isn't as problematic as it is to some other Rain teams because I have Scarf Lando-T, and Roserade/Amoonguss also take similar damage from Ice Beam, which also hits opposing Dragons and non-Ferrothorn grass types. Rest+Chesto helps for bluffing choice while giving it a bit more longevity, Toxic hits Jellicent and Gastrodon (as you said), Hydro Pump is the offensive alternative to Scald (either can be used I guess), and Ice Beam is more ideal than Psychic for the above reasons imo, so that'd be the best alternative to specs on this team.

feraligatr is a good idea. the thing is that he's still not beating sand stall if the grass is amoonguss instead of celebi and tspikes really bother him. lum might be the best item here, it'll also give you an extra dance on jellicent.

nice team man
I'll look into Lum over the usual Mystic Water. ty and thanks for the rate.
 

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Hey finch,i would like to say that maybe garchomp is more fit for this team and u can let two ground type into one ground type,let Tentacruel in ,makes this team got one chance to spin,so that tournadus can switchup more and kick opp‘s ass.I think azmu is cool but yeah,u made polited to become a attacker,we can change azum to Feraligatr ,for increase the speed tie and also got aque jet to save or sweep
 

Finchinator

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Hey finch,i would like to say that maybe garchomp is more fit for this team and u can let two ground type into one ground type,let Tentacruel in ,makes this team got one chance to spin,so that tournadus can switchup more and kick opp‘s ass.I think azmu is cool but yeah,u made polited to become a attacker,we can change azum to Feraligatr ,for increase the speed tie and also got aque jet to save or sweep
This team is 10 years old and really is not viable in the current metagame (and it was not even that good back then either). I am not sure why a 2014 RMT is worth rating in the modern day and I cannot really tell if Mimikyu is being sarcastic or not ;-;

It is weak to entry hazards to an unplayable extent; modern day Azumarill Rain needs a Starmie, Tentacruel, or Excadrill at the very least -- in fact, just about every Rain does and definitely ones that have Spike enablers like Jirachi or Gastrodon.

Azumarill is still somewhat viable and pairing it with Tornadus can even be done; here is an example from earlier in 2023 that I made: https://pokepast.es/ff421fc03e88d2bf

dice also used a cool Azumarill Rain vs watashi in SPL one year semi-recently:
 

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