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BW1 Roserade (Offensive) [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Arcticblast, Jun 20, 2012.

  1. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast
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    [​IMG]
    Fabulously fearsome.

    I mentioned in the reservation thread that I'd like to do a Roserade revamp once the metagame begins to settle down after Keldeo is out. This set, however, isn't on the OU analysis yet - I think it deserves a place. Before the obligatory comparison to Latios is made, it does have a niche in being virtually immune to status moves and absorbing Toxic Spikes.

    Also, since it wasn't in the format announcement, I really don't know where to put the ability line. I'm sticking with after EVs for now, but if it's wrong I'll change it.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Leaf Storm
    move 2: Sludge Bomb
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ground
    move 4: Sleep Powder / Rest
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While Roserade's most common role is as an offensive user of Toxic Spikes, it can pull off a surprisingly good offensive set due to its excellent Speed and Special Attack stats. Its typing and ability provide even more benefits not commonly seen in the OU tier: due to its Poison typing, it is one of the best offensive Toxic Spikes absorbers, and while an immunity to poison might seem redundant in conjunction with its ability, Natural Cure allows it to practically shrug off paralysis and sleep, which would otherwise effectively remove any other offensive Pokemon from the match.</p>

    <p>First and foremost, Roserade's powerful STAB Leaf Storm—running off of its high Special Attack—is the strongest unboosted Grass attack in OU. Leaf Storm's unfortunate side effect often forces it out after one hit, however, so Sludge Bomb provides a powerful secondary STAB attack. Hidden Power Fire rounds off Roserade's coverage, and allows it to hit Pokemon such as Skarmory and Ferrothorn super effectively. Hidden Power Ground is an alternative that allows Roserade to hit Heatran, who otherwise walls it, and gives a 31 Speed IV. However, it comes at the cost of the ability to hit many of OU's Steel-types. Sleep Powder is an excellent utility move that can remove a problematic Pokemon from the match, while Rest allows Roserade to heal itself completely and switch out to wake up.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>As Hidden Power Fire requires a lowered Speed IV, the set's 232 Speed EVs allow Roserade to reach 300 Speed and outrun neutral base 100 Pokemon by one point. Although mostly barren, Roserade's movepool is surprisingly large for a Grass / Poison Pokemon, and as such it has a a couple more options to run in the fourth slot. Shadow Ball provides the best coverage with the given moves, while Weather Ball is an excellent move on weather teams and allows Roserade to run a different Hidden Power. Growth is Roserade's only boosting move, but Roserade is too frail to boost effectively, and Leaf Storm will simply remove the boost. Leech Seed can catch Blissey and Heatran off-guard on the switch and help make up for Life Orb recoil. Stun Spore and Aromatherapy can provide some extra team support if you already have a sleep move on your team. Hidden Power Ice can be used in the third slot to hit Pokemon such as Dragonite, but this leaves Roserade helpless against Steel-types.</p>

    <p>Roserade can be paired with a wide variety of teammates. It loves fast partners with Ground, Fighting, or Water moves, to remove Steel- and Fire-types from the match. Good options for these include Starmie, Terrakion, and Dugtrio, the latter of whom can also trap grounded Steel- and Fire-types and destroy them with Earthquake. If running Weather Ball, Roserade fits nicely onto weather teams. Ninetales allows it to run Weather Ball with Hidden Power Ground, while it can use Weather Ball and Hidden Power Ice if paired with Politoed. Both options allow it to hit Steel-types, particularly Heatran, more effectively. Furthermore, physical walls can soak up attacks aimed at Roserade's awful Defense stat. A special mention goes to Slowbro, who resists all the elemental types Roserade is weak to bar Flying and can switch out and regain health through Regenerator. Heatran resists Flying, is immune to Fire, and can set up Stealth Rock to help Roserade secure some KOs. Finally, Roserade is an excellent partner for any Pokemon that fears status afflictions, such as bulky Waters or Choice attackers, due to its innate immunity to Toxic and Natural Cure to remove status.</p>

    <p>Any offensive Pokemon has its counters, and Roserade is no exception. Since this set lacks entry hazards, it can be outright walled, whereas other sets can still set up their hazard against walls. Blissey and Chansey take a pittance from its attacks, and Heatran is immune to two of its three most common moves and can threaten back with its Fire STAB, though it fears Hidden Power Ground or a Weather Ball in rain. Speedier variants of Volcarona can set up on it or just KO it outright with Fire attacks, but is in general a riskier counter as standard 240/216+ bulky Volcarona is outsped and almost 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb, which also has a 30% chance of inflicting poison. Espeon is in a similar boat to Volcarona, as it outspeeds and OHKOs with Psychic but is destroyed by Leaf Storm if it switches in. Thankfully, a Terrakion or Infernape carrying a Choice Scarf is able to defeat these Pokemon easily with a quick Stone Edge or Close Combat. Any faster physically based Pokemon or priority attacker, such as Landorus or Scizor respectively, can easily capitalize on Roserade's garbage Defense stat. No matter how well a Pokemon fares against Roserade, however, it risks being crippled by Sleep Powder, possibly for the entirety of the match.</p>

    Skeleton (open)
    • While Roserade is normally seen as a Spiker, it can perform an offensive role quite well due to its high Speed and Special Attack
    • One of the best weatherless offensive absorbers of Toxic Spikes
    • Natural Cure allows it to simply switch out if it's statused
    • Its Leaf Storm backed by a base 125 Special Attack stat makes it the strongest unboosted Grass attack in the tier. Unfortunately, the drop means it can't stay in after using it
    • Sludge Bomb provides a strong secondary STAB while HP Fire rounds off the coverage
    • Hidden Power Fire requires a 30 Speed IV, lowering its Speed by one point; with this in mind, 232 Speed EVs allow Roserade to outrun neutral base 100s, and the rest is thrown into HP to slightly cushion incoming hits. If running a Hidden Power that allows a 31 Speed IV, 28 HP and 228 Speed EVs can be run, or you can use 252 Speed to catch up to Roserade's natural Speed tier
    • Sleep Powder is an excellent support move and a decent way to scout switchins, assuming Sleep Clause is inactive
    • Rest allows Roserade to fully heal its HP and then switch out, thus waking up and being fully healed - great for a frail, hit-and-run attacker like Roserade
    Additional comments:
    • While Sleep Powder is probably the best option in the last slot, Roserade has a few other offensive options
    • Shadow Ball offers the best super effective coverage alongside the three listed moves
    • Weather Ball on a Sun or Rain team gives a powerful Fire or Water attack, respectively. This allows you to run Hidden Power Ground or Hidden Power Ice, respectively, over HP Fire
    • HP Ice allows it to hit OU's many Dragons super effectively, but with only three attacks, this leaves you walled by the many other Steel-types in the tier
    • Growth is Roserade's only boosting move, but Leaf Storm's dropping effect and Roserade's frailty make this a poor option
    • Leech Seed can catch switchins off-guard and helps make up for hazard and Life Orb damage
    • Defensively, Stun Spore and Aromatherapy are decent options if another team member has a Sleep move
    Teammates & Counters
    • Dugtrio removes annoying Steel-types such as Heatran and Magnezone, as well as faster threats like Alakazam
    • Politoed's Drizzle helps rectify its Fire weakness and allows it to capitalize on Weather Ball + HP Ice, while Ninetales's Drought allows Weather Ball + HP Ground
    • Fast Pokemon with Ground, Fighting, or Water moves can remove problematic Pokemon such as Heatran, Volcarona and Blissey - think Landorus, Terrakion, Scarf Politoed, etc.
    • Physical walls can take powerful attacks that Roserade fears; special mention to Slowbro, who resists all of Roserade's weaknesses except for Flying
    • Any Pokemon that fears status appreciates Roserade's ability to soak up Toxic Spikes and remove any other status effect with Natural Cure
    • A Pokemon to set up hazards is quite welcome - Heatran is notable both for excellent type synergy with Roserade and immunity to Fire
    • All potential counters are incapacitated by Sleep Powder, and must beware of it
    • Blissey and Chansey can take anything Roserade throws at them, but can't do much in return; defensive Latias can take a hit and retaliate with Hidden Power Fire or Psyshock
    • Heatran is immune to two of its three moves and can threaten with powerful Fire attacks, but fears HP Ground or Weather Ball in the rain
    • Volcarona can set up on it or hit it with strong Fire attacks, but switching in is a risky move - the standard bulky set for Volcarona is outsped and almost 2HKOd by Sludge Bomb, and the 30% chance to inflict poison makes it hard to come in. Volcarona must run Timid with 252 EVs in Speed to reliably beat it.
    • Any Pokemon with a faster or priority physical move can easily capitalize on its garbage Defense - special mention to Scizor, who only fears HP Fire


    Depending on how long it takes this to go through QC and whether or not it gets banned, Meloetta and Keldeo might get mentions as counters or teammates.
  2. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    I personally like this set. Its very unexpected and Roserade hits very hard between STAB Leaf Storm and STAB Sludge Bomb. Just a few pointers tho

    Firstly, I kinda want to see Rest as a slash or at least an AC mention. When you are lowish on health you can rest, heal up to full, and then switch out, with Natural Cure healing off that sleep. Spikes wouldn't also be a horrible thing to mention in AC but I'll talk to other QC members before I fully throw my support behind Spikes.

    I just want to make the point that Volcarona is a risky switch in to Offensive Roserade. Bulky Volcarona has just under a 50% chance to get 2KOed by Sludge Bomb, and on top of that you have a 30% to get poisoned. Drizzle Volcarona, is worse off as Roserade 2KOs and outspeeds, same with Chesto Rest. If Volcarona runs max sped Timid, it beats you (although losing over 50% switching in really hurts Volcarona's chances at sweeping), so just be careful I guess if you bring it up.

    Personally, Id bring up Ninetales as a potential partner since it lets you run Weather Ball, potentially freeing up a new Hidden Power (like Ground for an excellent Heatran Lure).
  3. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast
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    Huh, I completely forgot about Rest. I might actually slash it in instead of giving it an AC mention like... pretty much everything else.
    Sadly, Spikes and Leaf Storm are illegal together. Toxic Spikes is a level-up move so it's legal with both, however.
    Duly noted.
    This too. I'll make the changes ASAP.
  4. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    As a big fan of Roserade there is one thing I would keep in mind if the offensive set used Rest: make sure it isn't outclassed by Shaymin. With Rest Shaymin cal pull off the same set with arguably better coverage (Earth Power, Air Slash) and STAB (Seed Flare). Shaymin also has better bulk too. Roserade does have dual STAB, but Poison isn't the greatest.

    This isn't to say it is outclassed, but just that it has a lot of competition.
  5. Saitsuofleaves

    Saitsuofleaves

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    Maybe slash HP Ice on the third slot (which you already mentioned as a decent option).

    Gives good options against opposing Dragons as you said, and opposing Rain teams bringing out Rainite and Tornadus, making them much riskier switch ins to Roserade, plus since you mentioned Politoed as a good partner, HP Fire won't be doing much in the Rain anyway. Could make Roserade particularly deadly in Rain vs. Rain.
  6. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Just pointing out, that one of the things Roserade has over Shaymin, is that extra power and STAB Sludge Bomb. While poison isn't the greatest, Salamence is getting OHKOed with SR, Kyurem is 2KOed, Latios gets 2KOed, and even Latias doesn't like switching in, taking Stealth Rock, and then losing 41% min from Sludge Bomb (and then possibly getting poisoned). Shaymin needs HP Ice to pull this stuff off which means that it cannot run HP Fire while Roserade gets good coverage with Grass / Poison / Fire. I am not saying that Roserade is better than Shaymin, however slashing Rest does not auto mean that its a weaker Shaymin.

    @ Saitsuofleaves

    Sludge Bomb is going a lot to Rain Nite once Multi Scale is broken (and Rain Nite runs LO if its that mixed set, otherwise its not tricky to get up SR), same with Tornados. Quite frankly, if I was using Roserade on a Rain team, id go for Weather Ball (100 BP + Rain Boost) unless Ferrothorn was really a problem (plus you do more to Jirachi and Skarm). Its that STAB Sludge Bomb that lets Roserade get away with not needing HP Ice so much, since it has just enough power to cripple most dragons / fliers with Sludge Bomb.
  7. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    STAB Sludge Bomb and initial power is exactly what I mean though, something to distinguish it from Shaymin (sleep powder, tspikes). Leaf Storm vs Seed Flare is debatable (forcing out Blissey with Seed Flare is amazing). If Rest does get a slash and Weather Ball gets and OO mention, shouldn't Synthesis too? Synthesis means you don't have to switch out for recovery and if you are relying on Weather Ball for coverage I guess Synthesis can in a similar way.

    Spikes is too good in the metagame for it not to get a slash and with the elimination of Deoxys-S, there are no more offensive Spikers (lol cloyster). I know Giga Drain is weak versus Leaf Storm, but Spikes is just too good to pass up sometimes. Even if it doesn't have the power when running Spikes, it still let's it stick around a lot longer by healing that Life Orb recoil.
  8. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Spikes and Leaf Storm is illegal, and spikes has its own designated set already. The initial idea I had RE Spikes was that Roserade could force a switch and then spike but due to illegalities its not going to work. Basically I don't see the need for Spikes on this set (since you really, really need Leaf Storm) so yea lol.

    I don't really think we need Synthesis unless you are using Ninetales and even then Rest just seems...better. I'm inclined to not give it an AC / OO mention just because of how situational it is (and how 9/10 times Rest is better) but I guess I could be persuaded if someone had strong evidence to convince me otherwise.
  9. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast
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    The draw of this set is Leaf Storm's immense power though. This isn't Celebi, who can get away with using Giga Drain. It doesn't have any boosting moves (besides lol Growth) and it doesn't have the bulk that Celebi has. It's simply not strong enough.

    Also, Synthesis is rather weather-reliant, although it has a chance on Sun teams.
  10. Doughboy

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    I know Spikes and Giga Drain are illegal and that is why I mentioned Giga Drain. Spikes can further cement the KO's you can get and what your other team mates can which I think is much more useful than sleep. So what if it has a designated set already? Artic mentioned Toxic Spikes in his second post regarding the 4th moveslot. Roserade is the only offensive spiker right now and it can be put to good use.

    On Synthesis. I thought about more and don't bother. If Leaf Storm is going to be the go-to move for this set then there is no point having it when it is going to force you out with the drop.
  11. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast
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    The thing is, it's just not strong enough. And for an offensive Spiker, there's always Scolipede, whose Megahorn is stronger on average than Roserade's Giga Drain, or Accelgor and its ridiculous Speed. I'd just rather use the set that already exists instead of wasting an offensive set's potential.
  12. Saitsuofleaves

    Saitsuofleaves

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    While true, doing some calcs, if DNite's Multiscale isn't broken for whatever reason, it can switch in, take a Sludge Bomb and return the favor with a Hurricane OHKO (Roserade does have a slight chance to KO before the Hurricane, but it's low with Timid...really low, and while DNite will likely die due to LO, it was probably done for otherwise). And Tornadus can come in, take the Bomb, and will outspeed and KO with a Hurricane as well (not to mention, there's always the possibility of Tornadus Sacred Beast Forme looming around with Regenerator making life complete hell for Roserade, that's only theory though and should be ignored in the analysis until more concrete things are seen.)

    HP Ice may not be the best, but I would think Roserade would appreciate a Coverage Move as the third slot more than anything, or hope that Sleep Powder lands on the one good check/counter on the other team (like said DNite/Tornadus) and then start running a train on them. Either way though, Weather Ball's also a good option for great neutral damage against annoying Steel Types like you mentioned.
  13. Arcticblast

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    I've used HP Ice on this Roserade, and I like HP Fire soooooo much better. The Steel-types lurking around every corner don't care about anything else you throw at them besides Weather Ball, and that's rather situational. While Ice wasn't bad, Fire was just overall better. And Dragonite might not take much from Sludge Bomb, but losing to certain Dragons and Fliers is a hell of a lot better than having all three of your offensive moves resisted by a single type.
  14. Saitsuofleaves

    Saitsuofleaves

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    Is this in a Rain team?

    If even on a Rain team, HP Fire works better, then indeed remove the slash. Only reason I liked HP Ice for the Slash was the possibility of it being solid on a Rain team. Obviously, everywhere else HP Fire owns (that I can think of at least).
  15. Doughboy

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    Against only x2 weaknesses Sludge Bomb is only 5 points weaker, so you are only using it for Dnite and Salamence who are 2HKO'ed regardless. HP Fire>>>>>>>>>>HP Ice

    Personally I have been using Modest on this set, but I guess Timid is used to outspeed Timid non-scarf Rotom?
  16. Arcticblast

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    I'd prefer speed over power here, personally. Roserade's too frail to be using a Modest nature, and outspeeding neutral Salamence and Volcarona is too important (and quite frankly too satisfying) to give up.

    Timid 252 Rotom-A has 298 Speed. Neutral 252 base 100s have 299 Speed. This set aims for 300.
  17. Knight of Cydonia

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    Just a small thing, you say that Roserade has the strongest unboosted grass attack in the tier, it infact ties with Exeggutor who also has base 125 SpA and access to Leaf Storm ( it's going through QC just now if you want to check).
  18. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Just a quick zip-through, as this is a bit pedantic for my nature.

    It's tied for first and significantly more common than Exeggutor. That's good enough for me.
  19. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast
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    I'm not sure if I should keep trying to push this set through or hold off on it for a little while, but here are a couple of calcs. Since Keldeo just came out, I thought they'd be appropriate.

    252/252 Timid Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump in Rain versus 24/0 Roserade: 78.65 - 92.5% - 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Same Keldeo's Hydro Pump in clear skies versus same Roserade: 62.54 - 73.78% - 2HKO
    Same Keldeo's Secret Sword versus same Roserade: 62.54 - 73.78% - 2HKO

    252/252 Timid +1 LO Keldeo's Hydro Pump in clear skies versus 24/0 Roserade: 68.16 - 80.52% - 2HKO
    Same Keldeo's Secret Sword versus same Roserade: 80.89 - 95.5% - 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252/232 Timid LO Roserade's Leaf Storm versus 4/0 +1 Keldeo: 130.24 - 153.7% - OHKO

    So basically, it can come in on Keldeo (even +1 LO if there's no hazards) and one-shot it with Leaf Storm. Unfortunately, it fares poorly against the other new formes (the best matchup out of those is against Thundurus-T, and it almost OHKOs with LO HP Ice while Roserade does no more than 60% in return with Sludge Bomb).
  20. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Its up to you, however I think that Celebi does a better job at switching into Keldeo. For example in your calcs its always 2KOed, and in some scenarios its OHKOed with Stealth Rock, not something I would really want to advertise in an analysis.
  21. Ojama

    Ojama Are you watching closely...
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    I think that you can add Dugtrio as a good teammate since it traps Heatran, Jirachi, Chansey, Blissey etc. I'll try to test this Roserade in OU but I'm not sure it will work in this Metagame with stronger and faster Pokemon than Roserade.

    Adding HP Ground can be mentioned since it hits both Jirachi and Heatran. Scizor will expect the HP Fire and will always use BPunch so I think it can be added (the only problem would be Skarmory, but you can pair Roserade with Magnezone).

    Good set
  22. PK Gaming

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    This is a very good set. Sleep Powder is such an amazing tool on Roserade (in fact its the only reason why you'd even consider using an offensive Roserade set) since it let's you cripple Roserade checks / counters, and you can it makes it difficult to straight up counter Roserade during the early game. I agree with Ojama, HP ground should get a slash in order to get some damage on Heatran / Jirachi / Magnezone / etc. Replace HP ice with HP ground and move it to AC (since like others have mentioned, Sludgebomb does a ton of damage to dragons already and the only relevant quad weak dragon types are already 2HKOed by Sludgebomb anyway. In Salamence case, it takes "67.4% - 79.8%" from Sludgebomb, which pretty much means if SR is on the field, it will die to any for form recoil (LO, sand, etc) Don't forget to mention Dugtrio as a prime teammate?

    QC APPROVED (1/3)
  23. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    O.k

    I would like a post from the OP regarding what this is being written up for. I personally am favourable to it gettting an analysis in BW, its a good set, I have used it myself, and its cool.

    If its being written up for BW2, I want a 2 week delay at least so this can be tested out. Massive Spikes in the usage of Tornados (and to a lesser extent Rain Tank Dragonite with Hurricane), make me doubt its viability. It does not even really do a great job at even checking Keldeo which is very frustrating. So basically, if its for Bw then fine, BW2 im going to ask you to hold off, maybe post some logs, while QC take a look at it after the metagame settles down so we can better judge its effectivness

    Clear?
  24. Arcticblast

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    This was originally planned to be a BW analysis, and I have to agree it doesn't seem like it would be that great in the BW2 metagame. I haven't tested it yet for BW2 either, so BW it is.
  25. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Nothing is stopping you from testing this set on Showdown! to see how it fares in the new meta, Arcticblast.

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