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BW1 Starmie (Defensive Rapid Spin) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by dragonboy52, Jun 20, 2012.

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  1. dragonboy52

    dragonboy52
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    Credit to Princess Bri for the set and original skeleton.
    [SET]
    name: Defensive Rapid Spin
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Psyshock / Ice Beam
    move 3: Rapid Spin
    move 4: Recover
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Starmie is well known for being an offensive Rapid Spin user, but it also has all the tools necessary to run an effective defensive Rapid Spin set: decent defenses, a good Psychic / Water typing, access to Recover, and Natural Cure. Scald is the preferred Water-type STAB move on this defensive set, as it has a very useful chance of burning many prominent physically attacking Pokemon such as Scizor and Tyranitar. Psyshock can be used to hit Fighting- and Poison-types such as Terrakion, Virizion, Toxicroak, and Tentacruel. Also, because Psyshock hits the opponent's Defense stat, it does a decent amount of damage to Blissey and Chansey if they lack Defense EVs. Ice Beam, on the other hand, hits the Dragon- and Grass-types, such as Dragonite and Celebi, that resist Starmie's Water-type STAB. Ice Beam also OHKOes physically defensive Gliscor and Landorus. Rapid Spin is a great move to have, as entry hazards are practically on every team, making Starmie a great asset to Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock, such as Dragonite, Volcarona, and Salamence. Recover is what makes the defensive set shine, as it greatly increases Starmie's longevity and makes Starmie better at Toxic stalling, if it decides to run Toxic.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This EV spread maximizes Starmie's Speed, which allows it to outpace Choice Scarf Magnezone and tie with opposing Starmie, Azelf, and Raikou. The HP EVs give Starmie as much overall bulk as possible, while the small Special Attack investment ensures that Starmie is able to OHKO Gengar. Leftovers is the preferred item on this set, as it restores Starmie's HP each turn which increases its survivability. Natural Cure is a great ability, as it heals Starmie's status condition when it switches out. Hydro Pump can be used over Scald if you're in need of a more powerful STAB, but it is generally less reliable due to its shaky accuracy. However, Hydro Pump makes Starmie an even better check to Terrakion if you opt not to run Psyshock. Hydro Pump also OHKOes Landorus and Gliscor and 2HKOes Choice Band Scizor and standard Sableye. Thunderbolt is a reasonable alternative to Ice Beam, as it allows Starmie to hit Water-types such as Politoed, Jellicent, and Vaporeon for super effective damage. Thunder Wave can be used to prevent setup sweepers such as Dragonite and Salamence from sweeping, and can also catch many other Pokemon off-guard as Thunder Wave is not commonly seen on Starmie. Toxic is another decent option because it ensures that Starmie isn't completely useless against Jellicent. Psychic can be used over Psyshock if you're looking to hit more physically defensive Pokemon such as Conkeldurr and Terrakion outside of sandstorm. Reflect is a great support move that can help teammates set up, but unfortunately, Starmie will have to give up a vital coverage move to use it. Life Orb can be used over Leftovers for extra power, allowing Starmie to OHKO offensive Heatran, Tornadus (it should be noted that Tornadus is only OHKOed by a rain-boosted Hydro Pump), and Virizion, while also being able to 2HKO Tyranitar. However, Life Orb sharply decreases Starmie's survivability. An EV spread of 252 HP / 24 Def / 8 SpA / 224 Spe can be used, as the Speed EVs allow Starmie to outpace base 111 Speed Pokemon such as Tornadus, while the Defense and HP EVs allow Starmie to survive a Choice Band-boosted Stone Edge from Terrakion. The 8 Special Attack EVs give Starmie a 68.75% chance to OHKO -1 Defense Terrakion with Psyshock after Stealth Rock damage.</p>

    <p>Jellicent is the best counter to this set, so Jellicent counters such as Breloom are good teammates. Drizzle support from Politoed is also useful, as rain gives Starmie's Water-type STAB a nice power boost. Pokemon that can take on Blissey and Chansey, such as Terrakion, are also good teammates as these two pink blobs can wall Starmie endlessly. In general, Pokemon that benefit from Rapid Spin such as Volcarona and Dragonite are also decent teammates. Ferrothorn is another good teammate, as it has excellent synergy with Starmie: Starmie can take Fire- and Fighting-type attacks aimed at Ferrothorn, while Ferrothorn can take Electric-, Grass-, Ghost-, and Dark-type attacks aimed at Starmie. Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn can also deal with the VoltTurn combos Starmie is vulnerable to. Pokemon that can counter Scizor, such as Choice Scarf Magnezone and Skarmory, are also fine teammates to have, as Scizor can either Pursuit trap Starmie or outright OHKO it with a STAB U-turn. However, Scizor has to be wary of Scald, as it is severely crippled by burn. Pokemon that can deal with spinblockers are also valuable teammates, as Starmie's main goal is to spin away the entry hazards on your side of the field.</p>
  2. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    I think you want to add in Tornados and like, Vaporeon / other waters.

    Looks pretty good

    [​IMG]

    1/3

    EDIT

    Im happy with the current EVs tbh, Terrakion is common enough for me to be happy switching into it with Starmie and its not like Azelf / Raikou are common or anything.
  3. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Are the Defense EVs important? If they're not, I reckon they should just go into Speed so you can speed-tie with other base 115s (Stuff like Azelf, you may be able to spin away rocks before they blow up), as well as outspeed the crappy Scarf Magnezone set I've been seeing everywhere, letting you take out weakened ones. If you can survive the hits that you're after, I reckon we should just go with a simple 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe Timid spread.
  4. Dice

    Dice what's a god to a nonbeliever
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    hi shrang read the analysis first....
  5. dragonboy52

    dragonboy52
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    Well, the most important hit Starmie is able to survive with the current set is Choice Band Stone Edge from Jolly Terrakion. (It does 83.95%-99.07%) However, if the opponent manages to get Stealth Rock up before Starmie is able to spin, the extra investment would be useless. Also, the small special attack investment nets some KO's (mentioned in the skeleton).

    The spread you suggested seems intresting. I'll wait to see what other QC members think before changing it. If QC members feel that the current spread is better, I'll move the spread you suggested to AC. Thanks for the suggestion! :)
  6. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Psyshock is not a 100% OHKO on a -1 Terrakion after Rocks; It is ~68.75% chance (coincidentally the same chance of Starmie surviving CB Stone Edge after Rocks).
    Psychic also hits Terrakion harder than Psyshock outside of sandstorm.

    ~ I would AC mention shrang's spread, since it does have merit.

    Thanks for the revisions dragonboy!
  7. dragonboy52

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    Changes made. Thanks Pocket!
  8. uraga

    uraga Walking the streets with you in your worn-out jeans
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    just my opinion, but i feel that even mentioning life orb on a defensive set can be misleading and confusing to a reader, since they might as well just use an offensive set. hydro pump is more understandable since starmie likes 2hkoing those threats but life orb costs 16% per turn compared to lefties and really changes how it's played. defer to qc people though
  9. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Call me crazy, but shouldn't rapid spin be the first slash as this is the defensive rapid spin set, it seems to be the crux of the set.
  10. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    uraga, here's the post where Bluewind mentioned the use of Life Orb in this set. Life Orb somewhat detracts from the objective of this set, but that's why it's in the AC.

    typo

    QC Approved (2/3)
  11. Nachos

    Nachos Good player alert!
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    You may as well just run 252 Speed EVs. Even if you do survive Stone Edge, you'll die to Sandstorm anyway. Outspeeding Scarf Magnezones and tying with random Azelfs is something I wouldn't mind either.
  12. LizardMan

    LizardMan p good
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    You can also speed tie a LO Starmie to get off a Rapid Spin. Or even kill a weakened Starmie with Scald or Hydro Pump too. There is definitly merit to a max speed set.
  13. Ojama

    Ojama Let's trizzle the shizzle all over the hizzle
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    Ice Beam > Psychock since it hits Celebi / Breloom / Dragonite / Latios etc and that is probably more important than hitting Gengar or Terrakion since you can hit both with Scald. I dont get the 8 evs in SAtk ?
  14. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Just pointing out that Psyshock still hits Breloom for super effective damage, and it also does a fair but to CM Virizion and Tentacruel (as well as Toxicroak and Venusaur). Ice Beam gets Dragonite and Mence, but neither of them really like switching into a Scald either. I believe the draw for Psyshock (in the old analysis) (and the EVs) was that after a Def drop + SR, Psyshock would have a decent chance at beating Terrakion under Sand (which can take a Scald). Considering the actual sets main selling points is being able to check Terrakion I would personally have Psyshock first, so you can try and KO it.
  15. Dragontongue195040

    Dragontongue195040

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    Personally i agree that speed is a need but not in Starmie's case for this set. Remember that most starmies carry tbolt and that would virtually eliminate any chances of water types being good switch ins. That is why Starmie switch ins are not a threat to this set. (and, knowing the regular starmie set, you'd never send in this starmie to take hits :/) Also remember that this starmie's playstyle is much different from regular starmies- it's primary goal is to spin and take a few hits- not the hit and run strategy most people use today. That's why the added bulk is necessary.
    Technically, it really depends on what the individual battler needs, but for the sake of simplicity I'd say leave the EV's as they are.
    Another nitpick I think is worth mentioning is the use of life orb- starmie's usefulness extends to how long you can keep its set a mystery, coming in to leftover revealing SR will definitely show you up. Life orb also gives starmie the extra power it needs so it can be used as a semi sweeper later. After all, starmie had a speedy recover so added damage shouldn't be too much of a problem. Still, this is just an idea, becuase leftovers is still important for a bulky poke such as this, and taking it off could be a real risk.
  16. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Those 24 Def / 8 SpA evs are useless. Sure with those defenses you could feasibly survive a stone edge, but the SS recoil will finish you off anyway. Speed tying opposing Starmie (and the rare raikou), beating scarf magnezone and tying with Azelf are things you achieve with max speed.

    QC APPROVED (3/3)
  17. dragonboy52

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    Thanks for the final check!

    BTW, should I update this for B2W2 and pass it through QC again?
  18. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    This needs to mention Scald burning Tyranitar as its major attraction. Not just Ferrothorn, although that's helpful too!

    And if this goes through BW2 changes, don't forget to list Ice Beam as a huge deterrent to Thundurus- and Tornadus-T!
  19. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Keep it for BW for now. BW2 analysis were only allowed to be written about 2 mins ago (so about half a day or so for you Americans) so its prolly too early for this set to get updated for BW2. Write it up as for BW, then perhaps give it a test run in BW2 and QC can re examine it later.
  20. dragonboy52

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    Ready for GP!
  21. Nachos

    Nachos Good player alert!
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    You should be using the EV spread me and PK Gaming suggested...
  22. dragonboy52

    dragonboy52
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    The first two QC members said the current EV spread is fine, so I'll contact them and ask them for a second opinion.
  23. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Note that with 4 SpA EVs, you already guarantee an OHKO on Gengar, a spinblocker you want to be able to beat (though it doesn't really function that way anymore), so imo a 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe spread would be fine. Living a CB Terrakion Stone Edge is cool and all, but when you realize Stealth Rock will usually be on the field if Terrakion is spamming Stone Edge, it may not be worth it. I don't think the benefits outweigh the fact that you can get a Rapid Spin off against a Starmie with super effective coverage, so using a standard 252 / 4 / 252 spread should be fine.
  24. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Yea sorry I thought it was clear, but we changed our minds (well I did), my mistake. Stick with what PK and Nachos said, we discussed it and yea, max the speed since SS kills you anyway.
  25. dragonboy52

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    Alright, thanks for the clarification. Changed the EV spread.
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