Gen 5 BW2 Doubles Viability Ranking Thread

#51
I disagree with this. For Ferrothorn to be effective (imo) requires it to run Leech Seed/Sub/Protect, leaving only one offensive move, which is probably going to be Seed Bomb. Coupled with its (somewhat) low attack, which is mostly only low because you're probably dumping all your EVs into your defenses, it's incredibly slow. This gives your opponent time to actually switch in that Hitmontop or Hydreigon to beat up your Ferrothorn (provided the other guy can break its subs), which means you're losing momentum. Additionally, Ferro isn't much of a team player; the teams I use Ferro on usually end up supporting it more than Ferro is supporting them because Ferro's moves pretty much only affect Ferrothorn. Also, Amoonguss pretty much walls it with Rage Powder unless you're using Iron Head or Thunder Wave.

This isn't to say that I don't have trouble with it when I'm playing rain teams (and sometimes sand or Trick Room). It's just that it slows your game down, and it really doesn't have room for other neat moves like Thunder Wave. It gives you a nice, tangible endgame goal (eg, 'if i can kill that chandelure, this game is as good as mine!') since its counters are fairly obvious, but it definitely isn't good for any team like Scizor and Latios tend to be.
Substitute is shit on Ferro though. I did quite fine with Protect/Seed/PWhip/TWave(toxic) on sun and Rain teams.
 
#52
I agree that Ferrothorn can make a living just fine with leech seed and protect. Unless it is hit by a super effective, it's unlikely that even if double teamed it will be KO'd in one turn.

Also, let's remember that being slow is bad, but being frightfully slow means you have a potential trick room speed demon. Ferro is in the happy situation of not even needing trick room to be a functional member of society though.
 

Fusxfaranto

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#53
Nominating Rotom-F for C rank. As long as it has hail support, it can wreck a lot of stuff with STAB Blizzard and Discharge. Despite having some really icky weaknesses, it's still got the same stats as Rotom-W, so it can take neutral hits pretty well.
 

Joim

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#55
I disagree with this. For Ferrothorn to be effective (imo) requires it to run Leech Seed/Sub/Protect, leaving only one offensive move, which is probably going to be Seed Bomb. Coupled with its (somewhat) low attack, which is mostly only low because you're probably dumping all your EVs into your defenses, it's incredibly slow. This gives your opponent time to actually switch in that Hitmontop or Hydreigon to beat up your Ferrothorn (provided the other guy can break its subs), which means you're losing momentum. Additionally, Ferro isn't much of a team player; the teams I use Ferro on usually end up supporting it more than Ferro is supporting them because Ferro's moves pretty much only affect Ferrothorn. Also, Amoonguss pretty much walls it with Rage Powder unless you're using Iron Head or Thunder Wave.

This isn't to say that I don't have trouble with it when I'm playing rain teams (and sometimes sand or Trick Room). It's just that it slows your game down, and it really doesn't have room for other neat moves like Thunder Wave. It gives you a nice, tangible endgame goal (eg, 'if i can kill that chandelure, this game is as good as mine!') since its counters are fairly obvious, but it definitely isn't good for any team like Scizor and Latios tend to be.
Furthermore, Ferro is Taunt bait, and we all know how common Taunt is in Doubles. I would dare to say that Ferrothorn is better in TR as a hard hitter, lol.
 
#57
I suppose it has a few things going for it...
-Poison Heal makes using protect more rewarding
-Tail Wind
-Decent Defense
-Stab Earthquake
Doesn't look like a whole lot though...
Taunt(probably one of the bigger reasons), immunity to EQ and Discharge, instant recovery, Hyper Cutter for intimidate blocking, acrobatics set.
But yea it is quite niche to be in B rank. Maybe C rank
 
#58
Nominate tangrowth for c rank, maybe even b...

Disclaimer: i have no experience of using tangrowth, but have battled against it on many occasions and personally find it more annoying than amoonguss.
Tangrowth plays similarly to amoonguss, it also has rage powder/regenerator, a sleep move, and is quite slow. It distinguishes itself by having greater physical bulk, a ground-type resist (in particular, it takes earthquakes like a boss) and more attacking-wise, with a power whip and/or leaf storm than can do serious damage. On the other hand, it has less special defense, is weak to bug and lacks the fighting-type resist, and sleep powder can miss at the worst times. It could try its hand at a chlorophyll set, but there are better sun sweepers out there.
 
#59
Nominate tangrowth for c rank, maybe even b...

Disclaimer: i have no experience of using tangrowth, but have battled against it on many occasions and personally find it more annoying than amoonguss.
Tangrowth plays similarly to amoonguss, it also has rage powder/regenerator, a sleep move, and is quite slow. It distinguishes itself by having greater physical bulk, a ground-type resist (in particular, it takes earthquakes like a boss) and more attacking-wise, with a power whip and/or leaf storm than can do serious damage. On the other hand, it has less special defense, is weak to bug and lacks the fighting-type resist, and sleep powder can miss at the worst times. It could try its hand at a chlorophyll set, but there are better sun sweepers out there.
Tangrowth for C Rank at best. It's a poor man's Amoongus. It also lacks the Fighting Resist that Amoongus has, and operates less well under TR, and that Special Bulk it doesn't have makes it a liability to Fire/Ice attacks.
 

Mizuhime

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#60
Furthermore, Ferro is Taunt bait, and we all know how common Taunt is in Doubles. I would dare to say that Ferrothorn is better in TR as a hard hitter, lol.
Two good pokemon use taunt
Thundurus-I
Tornadous-I

Thundurus has many moves it can run as a fourth slot, Protect, Sub, Taunt, so it's not always going to end up carrying Taunt.

I don't find Tornadous that common at all.

If you use whimiscott as a taunter, lol I don't even count Whimiscott as a pokemon
 
#61
Two good pokemon use taunt
Thundurus-I
Tornadous-I

Thundurus has many moves it can run as a fourth slot, Protect, Sub, Taunt, so it's not always going to end up carrying Taunt.

I don't find Tornadous that common at all.

If you use whimiscott as a taunter, lol I don't even count Whimiscott as a pokemon
I played a guy using Whimsicott/Hitmonlee with Unburden and a Lum Berry. The Whimsicott had Encore/Taunt/Swagger/Protect. You could double protect to block the fake out, but you'd get Encored into it while Hitmonlee picked up Swagger and Rock Slide spammed. Then his team would pick up from there. And Whimsicott was Sashed I believe.

Sorry, but Whimsicott can be used well in this Metagame given the right support. Maybe a B Rank just due to its speed and Prankster together?
 
#62
Ferrothorn can also be screwed over by Encore users: Politoed, Infernape, Whimiscott again (who is very likely to be running either Taunt and/or Encore).

Not to forget that there are other Pokemon that commonly run Taunt e.g. Gyarados, Gliscor, Sableye, as well as some other common Pokemon that can potentially run Taunt but don't normally e.g. Heatran (it may be a good idea for Heatran to Taunt Ferrothorn if it's behind a Sub).

In saying that though, Ferrothorn still has two STABs with decent power behind them, so it's not major Taunt bait and not to the same extent as Cresselia (particularly variants lacking Icy Wind), Dusclops, and Porygon 2. Definitely still useful if it's Taunted.
 

nyttyn

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#63
I played a guy using Whimsicott/Hitmonlee with Unburden and a Lum Berry. The Whimsicott had Encore/Taunt/Swagger/Protect. You could double protect to block the fake out, but you'd get Encored into it while Hitmonlee picked up Swagger and Rock Slide spammed. Then his team would pick up from there. And Whimsicott was Sashed I believe.

Sorry, but Whimsicott can be used well in this Metagame given the right support. Maybe a B Rank just due to its speed and Prankster together?
There is no way Whimsicott is a B rank. Its frail, it hits like a wet soggy paper bag, its complete taunt, trick, and encore bait, it has a typing that leaves it weak to a plethora of common attack types and gives it only one kind of nice resistance, its one good stat, speed, is completely redundant with prankster, and it has a fairly linear and predictable movepool filled with options that, while good in singles, simply don't make the cut in doubles.

Just because you lost to a Whimsiscott does not make it good.

Edit: And just for the record that is hands down the worst Whimsiscott set I have seen in awhile. If you're going to be arguing for Whimsicott's merits at least mention Tailwind since that's one of the few things it has going for it.
 
#64
There is no way Whimsicott is a B rank. Its frail, it hits like a wet soggy paper bag, its complete taunt, trick, and encore bait, it has a typing that leaves it weak to a plethora of common attack types and gives it only one kind of nice resistance, its one good stat, speed, is completely redundant with prankster, and it has a fairly linear and predictable movepool filled with options that, while good in singles, simply don't make the cut in doubles.

Just because you lost to a Whimsiscott does not make it good.

Edit: And just for the record that is hands down the worst Whimsiscott set I have seen in awhile. If you're going to be arguing for Whimsicott's merits at least mention Tailwind since that's one of the few things it has going for it.
It's already in B Rank, and I usually destroy teams using Whimsicott, this time was an exception, but anyhow...

You said it is also Taunt/Trick/Encore bait? Not when it has the fastest Taunt out there.
 

nyttyn

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#65
It's already in B Rank, and I usually destroy teams using Whimsicott, this time was an exception, but anyhow...

You said it is also Taunt/Trick/Encore bait? Not when it has the fastest Taunt out there.
Why the dickens is it at B rank? Whimsiscott to C rank.

And while it does have the fastest Taunt, that doesn't mean it isn't weak Taunt/Trick/Encore. For example: Gyarados is weak to rock types, yet can still beat them with STAB water type attacks. Same deal with Whimiscott - it might have the fastest taunt, but Taunt/Trick/Encore will still shut it down hard. And that's just one of the myriad of flaws that Whimsiscott possesses. Far too flawed and too outclassed to be anything higher.
 
#66
Why the dickens is it at B rank? Whimsiscott to C rank.

And while it does have the fastest Taunt, that doesn't mean it isn't weak Taunt/Trick/Encore. For example: Gyarados is weak to rock types, yet can still beat them with STAB water type attacks. Same deal with Whimiscott - it might have the fastest taunt, but Taunt/Trick/Encore will still shut it down hard. And that's just one of the myriad of flaws that Whimsiscott possesses. Far too flawed and too outclassed to be anything higher.
I agree it's not very good, but seeing as Gliscor is B Rank also... Lol.

Honestly, I support Whimsicott for C Rank, as it isn't good until someone good is using it. IE, niche support.
 

nyttyn

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#67
Gilscor to C

I shouldn't even have to explain myself on this one but someone let me know if I do.

Oh yeah, and Cloyster to B

The scarf set does serious work, has the capability to save your butt, is deceptively powerful, and can get around substitute, focus sash, and resist berries, something that no other viable pokemon can bring to the table reliably.
 
#68
Oh yeah, and Cloyster to B

The scarf set does serious work, has the capability to save your butt, is deceptively powerful, and can get around substitute, focus sash, and resist berries, something that no other viable pokemon can bring to the table reliably.
Love Scarf Cloyster actually. Saw it used in a game over on NB for one of their tours and that thing is just beastly. So much better in Doubles than the SS set, and kills a ton of things.
 
#69
I propose we move cofagrigus up to C Rank. Being a ghost trick room setter is always handy due to the fake out immunity plus with a hefty 145 base def and good 105spD it can tank hits pretty well. Whilst taunt is an issue, that can be said for all TR users and mental herb bypasses this. Pure ghost typing is pretty good defensively as fighting types are common and dark/ghost types aren't so common. Another thing cofagrigus has going for it is nasty plot which, if you can set it up will reach get cofagrigus to reach 634spA at max and with attacks like STAB shadow ball and psychic it can wreck teams. Less notably it has will o wisp if you want to run a really bulky set that can stop strong physical attackers.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-35805457
plus it can run this cheeky little gimmick
 
#70
I propose we move cofagrigus up to C Rank. Being a ghost trick room setter is always handy due to the fake out immunity plus with a hefty 145 base def and good 105spD it can tank hits pretty well. Whilst taunt is an issue, that can be said for all TR users and mental herb bypasses this. Pure ghost typing is pretty good defensively as fighting types are common and dark/ghost types aren't so common. Another thing cofagrigus has going for it is nasty plot which, if you can set it up will reach get cofagrigus to reach 634spA at max and with attacks like STAB shadow ball and psychic it can wreck teams. Less notably it has will o wisp if you want to run a really bulky set that can stop strong physical attackers.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-35805457
plus it can run this cheeky little gimmick
Super cheeky. Although it does highlight how Role Play can be effectively used in Doubles. Although considering that at even +2 you weren't getting many KOs...

C Rank might fit Cofag well, but it's got mediocre offense weighing it down as a TR sweeper. It's definitely better than gliscor though and that's in B Rank for some reason.
 

Laga

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#71
Actually, I moved Gliscor to C rank for extremely obvious reasons, and Cofagrigus will be moved if some more people discuss for it :]
 
#72
Terrakion, Kyurem-B and Volcarona to S rank.
Volcarona can sweep whole teams without support, but does so easily with the right team. It can run offensive, bulky or even support sets. Stealth Rocks are rare and so is Stone Edge. Intimidate or Wide Guard protects you from Rock Slide and an S ranked Pokemon happens to have both.
Kyurem-B has almost zero opportunity cost. There is almost no team that couldn't benefit from its raw power and bulk in this metagame. It really shines on rain and tailwind teams. With a choice band, I am pretty sure it OHKOs intimidate users without full defensive investment. That opens up a huge hole if your opponent relies on intimidate switch-ins a lot.
Terrakion has a lot of options and just enough bulk to be useful. Its main draw in doubles is base 108 speed paired with a powerful Rock Slide and Close Combat. These two moves are extremely useful and it has a large number of options to use for the other two slots. Also, because this Pokemon only has to rely on its STABs, it has room to run the incredibly useful move protect without affecting its offensive presence.

I believe these three easily stand out above the rest of the A tier and are at least as good as anything in the S tier. Tyranitar hasn't ever been as useful as Terrakion imo. Cresselia can be deadweight at times, while Kyurem-Black is always ready to smash something hard. Politoed limits your team to playing in the rain, while Volcarona is so versatile that the right set can fit on any team.
 

Laga

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#73
Out of the 3 suggestions you posted, I am leaning mostly towards Kyurem-B having the largest chance of becoming S rank, and why I do not personally think the other two are as qualified for potentially becoming S rank will come right here:

Terrakion is huge threat in doubles, there is no doubt about that. It can do major damage with it's two STAB attacks, but there are 2 problems with it.
  • Both of it's preferred STAB moves have a drawback; Rock Slide is weaker, now that it is a spread move, and Close Combat has the nasty Defense drops.
  • It is completely pooped on by Hitmontop and Cresselia, the two main S rank pokes that have been in the tier from the start.


    Now to move onto volc, it's very interesting that you mention Volcarona for S rank. I don't have much experience of having a particularly hard time facing it, since I run Heatran on my main team atm along with Wide Guard Hitmontop if Heatran where to go and faint. I personally think also that your statement is kind of 2 sided since you first say that "Volcarona can sweep whole teams without support" and then go on to say that "Intimidate or Wide Guard protects you from Rock Slide", basically yeah, it needs Wide Guard or Fake Out support. You do have a point in the fact that it doesn't fail at sweeping teams, but most good teams know how to deal with it, without having to build your team in fear of it. It is not something you simply have to go out of your way to prepare for, like say for example, something that can deal at least 40% or more to Cresselia.

    As for Kyurem-B, I basically completely agree with you. It really can do a lot of damage, especially since a team often doesn't (and shouldn't ever) have both a Scizor AND a Ferrothorn to deal with it. The fact that it takes hits so well is amazing, and I personally love using it. It is probably the most potent on your list to move to S, since it is extremely easy to fit on a lot of teams.

    That is basically my reply to you, and my opinion on your suggestions. Even though I can do exactly what I want and potentially move Terrakion to D rank (lol) I am of course going to make these movements a reality if people come up with strong arguments for them.

    Thanks for sparking some lovely A to S rank discussion :D
 
#74
Terrakion, Kyurem-B and Volcarona to S rank.
Dunno whether I agree with all this, Kyu-B I can't say much about having never used it, same with volc. Terrakion on the other hand I believe should be staying in A rank. Firstly it is slower than Lati@s which can OHKO with psychic. Secondly walled by Landorus T which I think is becoming more common and can OHKO back with EQ or predict a switch with U-Turn to gain momentum. Weakness to fighting doesn't do him much good, Pretty much dead after a close combat from hitmontop, the most common fight type and 3rd most common poke at 1850+ rating, even with minimal attack investment. Other large threats such as breloom, scarf toed, excadrill and of course, the big hitter golurk, are beating it. I know you mentioned wide guard which stops spread moves but you won't always have a wide guard user on the field to stop them. Terracott which is used a fair bit isn't great either, whilst it will beat a trash team most decent teams aren't worried about it at all.

In conclusion, Whilst terrakion is good I don't think it deserves S rank and is quite at home in A
 
#75
I propose abomasnow for A rank. Everyone thinks hail is the worst weather. That's mostly because it is in regular play. Under TR however it is a potent force Doubles makes TR just about viable and blizzspam can become a potent threat. The combination of aboma and glaceon/kyurem is very strong, with a 20 percent chance to freeze a poke every turn on a 130 base power STAB move on a potent attacking type. So far what I have said suggests it should stay B rank but two interesting calcs are:
150+ Atk Grass Gem Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 402-474 (104.68 - 123.43%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and
150+ Atk Grass Gem Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 426-504 (105.44 - 124.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Both the main weather setters are beat by aboma. With good prediction you can win the weather war which can often win the game. Aboma is often a great fit on weatherless teams as it helps deal with huge threats like swift swim or sand rush pokes such as kingdra/excadrill as it takes away the opponents weather without hindering your team HP ground deals with Heatran and other fire pokes to some extent and access to ice shard is great as it helps it deal with threats such as Landorus T, Salamence and Garchomp as even at -1 it is 2HKOing all of them