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Gen 5 BW2 Doubles Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Laga, Jun 17, 2013.

  1. BlankZero

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    KyuB can hit S Rank, but it is held back by it's Intimidate liability and the fact that Rock Slide, Bullet Punch, CC, Mach Punch, Focus Blast all hit it for SE damage, and Ice typing makes Fire-types neutral to it, meaning it loses the Dragon Advantage against Sun teams. It does have a ridiculous amount of bulk to work with, and slams teams hard, even if you choose to use Dragon Claw over Outrage (which is silly, as this guy is such a good Outrage spammer even in Dubs). I think it's a good high A-Rank mon. Possible S rank, but it requires a tad bit of support to make it work well (Tailwind is a fun strategy if you don't want to Scarf it) and I believe S Rank mons don't need much if any support to do their jobs.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Volcarona is another good example of Close-To-S-Rank. The rock slide weakness forces it to run a super bulky set, Intimidate support and possibly even a Charti Berry just to live 1 Rock Slide from something like TTar.

    252+ Atk Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Charti Berry Volcarona: 194-230 (51.87 - 61.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    A 4x weakness, while something that S Rank TTar faces as well, coupled with FAR lower bulk Physically makes Volcarona slightly less appealing. Although I agree that in a SR-Less meta (almost), it definitely thrives, it still gets whacked by serious threats, enough so that it needs support options available. A Rank is a good fit.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Terrakion is GREAT in Singles. Doubles, it lacks a tiny bit. Most things that can choose between Psychic or Psyshock choose the latter, mainly due to Sand boosting SpDef in rock types. 108 Speed is just enough to outrun things, but just too little to be able to deal with Timid Latios, who will kill Terrakion every time. A Rank is a good fit for it, as, like Kyub, it's great Offensive typing is a Defensive Curse. Priority hurts it, other than ESpeed, it's weak to common Spread moves (EQ,Surf, Muddy Water), only really resisting Heatwave (and Explosion lol), and it's susceptible to Intimidate. Hitmontop can take it 1 on 1 and usually win with a CC, Gem-boosted or not. Even TTar can live CC from un-Banded Terrak after an Intimidate and a Chople Berry.

    -1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Tyranitar: 360-426 (89.1 - 105.44%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Overall, I LOVE the idea of arguing more mons up to S Rank, but, apart from KyuB and possible Volcarona (with a GREAT argument on its behalf), I don't see it happening yet or ever.
  2. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    I'll argue my three nominations a little more.
    Kyurem-Black's typing isn't nearly as bad in doubles. Scizor and SR are much less common. Rock Slide doesn't do much to a healthy Kyurem-B due to its great bulk. 252 HP>252 Speed imo. It's dragon typing gives it nice resistances which aren't exploitable due to a 4x weakness. It works very well with rain teams because it resists Water+Electric+Grass and isn't detrimentally weak to the ice coverage normally carried. Also, it has enough bulk with investment to laugh off Garchomp's Dragon Claw for example. It can even run Roost and/or Substitute and/or Hone Claws on bulky sets and isn't just limited to choice items. Also, most people seem to agree that they could picture it in S rank. It has a freaking 700 BST and puts it to good use in doubles.
    Volcarona's main appeal is that it can provide one of the most reliable win conditions. Quiver Dance a couple times=GG. It has the bulk to do it reliably. Its main STAB is a spread move and can be boosted by weather while its other STAB annihilates Cresselia. It has the movepool to accomplish different things depending on the team. Rain and Rock Slide hinder it, but Rain, EQ, Scizor, fighting moves and Intimidate hinder Tyranitar and it is somehow in S rank. It can also sweep in weatherless, hail, or sand while most of A rank is filled with sweepers that are harshly nerfed outside of their own weather.
    Terrakion functions differently in doubles than singles and personally I prefer it in doubles. Rock Slide isn't to get OHKOs so its low BP is irrelevant. Its 30% flinch chance(that can be abused due to 108 speed) means that you have roughly a 50% chance of scoring at least 1 flinch(w/o accuracy factored). Its a good offensive type to spam and it is great for KOing something low on HP while dealing damage+a flinch chance to the other. I believe that Focus Sash or Life Orb is very handy on Terrakion because it gets a lot of opportunities to use Protect and waste your opponent's turns. Its 4th slot can be Stone Edge(which has a lot of uses over Rock Slide), SD for sweeping, or Stealth Rocks since Terrakion is actually one of the few mons in doubles that can afford a moveslot and turn on the move to see big gains from it.
    Basically, the assets that Terrakion has that I feel were being ignored are ability to run a variety of different items, Swords Dance, Stone Edge, Rock Slide's superb flinch rate, and its ease of giving a moveslot to Protect/Stealth Rocks.


    Also, Bisharp for B rank or lower... It gets destroyed by most attacks in the meta and I'd argue that it performs worse than singles where it certainly is not A rank. Its main asset is a strong sucker punch. In doubles, if you score the sucker punch KO you can still get KOed back by their partner. There is really no way that Bisharp should be among the rest of A tier. Metagross does a lot of the same things as it, but better.


    Edit: I know what Defiant does... I've been to the top of the ladder before and am pretty experienced -_-
    Defiant isn't that great. +1 Attack woo... Bisharp still can't really do anything besides SD Sucker Punch. I compared it to Metagross who gets Clear Body and Meteor Mash, but a much better typing and BST.
    Marill gets Huge Power. That is why it should be A rank in Smogon Doubles. Please go look up what Huge Power does. See? That isn't a real argument.
  3. BlankZero

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    Bisharp has Defiant. That's why it is A Rank.

    Please go look up what Defiant does :P
  4. lucariojr

    lucariojr goodra will hunting
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    bisharp is a rank because its a pretty hard check to cresselia, tyranitar, hail teams, trick room and can hold its own in just about any other matchup thanks to stab sucker punch.

    also can we not go back to stealth rock please

    e: also abomasnow is in b rank because hail is hard to justify on non blizzspam/hailroom teams besides being an alright check to rain.
  5. BlankZero

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    Actually, someone was using Azumarril on a team and doing quite well with it.

    Defiant gives you +2 Attack for every single stat drop, meaning Icy Wind gives you +2, Intim gives a net +1. It also cockblocks Cress as lucario stated, Low Kick destroys TTar (as does Iron Head), and it's typing, while weak to Fighting and Fire, still gives it a good bit of bulk.
  6. Nollan

    Nollan EV Master Nollan
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    Nominating that Darkrai be moved up to the B Rank.
    While it does have trouble with Mach Punch and the many other Fighting attacks in the tier, it can fill a very solid attacker role. Ice Beam is a great attack for it to have, and combined with Dark Pulse and Focus Blast, it can hit a large portion of the metagame for Super-Effective damage, similar to Weavile. It is further assisted by its stats, which put it at the same speed tier as Weavile, which means it can move before some of the fastest attackers, such as Latios and Garchomp. This high speed can also be an advantage against annoying combinations like Terrakion + Beat Up, as Darkrai can take Terrakion down with Focus Blast before it can attack. As if that wasn't enough, its Special Attack hits 135, easily grabbing OHKOs on all sorts of fast threats. For example, an Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse OHKOs a 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios, and has a 56.25% chance to OHKO Latias. An Ice Beam can OHKO offensive Thundurus and Zapdos, and has a chance to score a 2HKO on defensive variants when factoring in Sitrus Berry (without Sitrus Berry they are 2HKOs). It also has a 12.5% chance to OHKO bulk Heatran with Focus Blast. While barely missing out on OHKOs often, with a bit of prior damage it can take down entire teams. Furthermore, unlike other speedy attackers, such as Deoxys-Attack and Weavile, it can take hits without being OHKO'd. One dramatic example is a Max Special Attack Modest Heatran Fire Blast, which just misses a OHKO on Darkrai. A more realistic example is a Metagross Meteor Mash, which only deals 84% at maximum. It is clearly not A Rank, as it often fails to sweep teams, and relies on Focus Blast to finish the job, but with a bit support, it can easily rip through teams. As a last note, I have a replay to show Darkrai in action:
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-19733252 (Example of Darkrai's great Super-Effective coverage)
  7. BLOOD TOTEM

    BLOOD TOTEM Air on the G-string
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    Some interesting calcs a lot of which come up a fair bit. Interesting to see it beating the two best spA dragons in hydreigon and lati@s. One issue I see is the lack of spread moves outside of blizzard which isn't great. In addition to this it really doesn't have great bulk and is quickly killed by pretty much any Mach punch most scarfers will be outspending it notably landorus T who will be doing some big damage with u turn. Thunder wave is practically death to darkrai as the only thing keeping it alive is its speed and with prankster thunderous on the prowl you have to watch out

    Positives to darkrai are, it's really great in gravity because blizzard will always be hitting as we'll as focus miss which really isn't a reliable move outside of gravity. Also it makes great bait, it makes prediction very easy as people will often target darkrai as a priority threat and you can easily take threats out of the game with the partner pokemon. Another big advantage is no weakness to intimidate which means you won't have to be switching it out and in and you don't want to be trying to switch darkrai in as it is quite hard considering its lack of bulk. It partners well with fight types thanks to it's strength against common counters like cress and lati@s.
  8. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime Hear my tears all in my tunes
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    Youngjake, How do Metagross and Bisharp do the same thing at all, just because they share typing? lol, BIsharp makes it so your opponent is scared to use intimidate and switch them in and out freely, Bisharp creates a wall of mind games and you still have to be able to predict when the sucker punch is coming and if you predict wrong then it's behind a sub. Metagross has clear body yeah, but all Metagross does is tank hits and hit back lol, Hammer arm lets you deal with trickroom a little better, but as far as i can tell Bisharp and Metagross don't share anything in common but a typing

    also I don't think anything belongs in S rank besides the pokemon that are currently there, we had this talk on irc

    Kyurem-b is shut down by intimidate, scizor, any fighting move
    Volcarona pretty much needs either tail wind, fake out, wide guard to do anything
    and Terrakion just isn't S rank material it's a million times better in singles
  9. Nollan

    Nollan EV Master Nollan
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    One thing to note is that Volcarona has Tailwind itself, which can be useful. Still, I agree it shouldn't be S Rank. Heatran, for example, completely walls it (apart from Hidden Power which usually is a waste). It also loses to most Rain and Sand teams, which are fairly common.

    Also, I think I'm going to agree with Bisharp for B Rank. While it is great for reversing Intimidates, Icy Winds, and simply pressuring the opponent, it doesn't really match the A Rank definition.
    ~A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.~
    In general, Bisharp relies on getting a Defiant boost to be capable of achieving KOs against most non-Psychic opponents. Most smart players will know better to lead with Hitmontop, or spam Icy Wind with Cresselia. This means it will only be hitting off a 125 base attack. In addition, it is very frail, and lacks spread moves (outside of Snarl). In reality, it general fills a nice Anti-Trick Room/Anti-Cresselia niche, and is a good option for pressuring the opponent to play differently than he/she would normally play. Anything faster than it with a Dark resistance can easily put it out of commission. Breloom, Heatran, Excadrill, and Hydreigon are examples. Basically, its reliance on Sucker Punch in a lot of situations tends to hold it back.
  10. youngjake93

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    Yea sucker punch and defiant>clear body makes them different, but if you take those two things away you have a much worse Metagross. I just don't think that Sucker Punch is that reliable or Defiant is that threatening on Bisharp. I could be wrong since I almost never see it in doubles.

    I don't see how Kyurem-B being "shut down by intimidate, scizor, any fighting move" makes it not S when Tyranitar is hindered even harder by those three things. Kyurem-B can actually still OHKO lots of things from -1(plus it can switch out) while Tyranitar's much lower BP attacks and base attack usually only net it OHKOs on SE hits even when not at -1. Any physical fighting attack that Tyranitar can survive after Chople Berry, Kyurem-B survives with more HP and doesn't have to use a Chople Berry. Kyurem-B takes less from Scizor's Bullet Punch than Tyranitar, it isn't hit SE by U-Turn/Bug Bite, it has the option of switching out or using Protect and Scizor isn't horribly common.

    I get that Tyranitar brings sand and shuts down Psychic types, but Kyurem-B's power makes Tyranitar look weak and it is even bulkier(except sDef IN SAND) with better resistances, reliable recovery and a spammable STAB. There are very few scenarios where you can't expect Kyurem-B to at least go 1-1 or better since it can just click Outrage and something will die, so there's little reason to not run it.
  11. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime Hear my tears all in my tunes
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    you're missing one of the biggest factor that makes ttar S, Sand it's self makes ttar a devastating mon, not only because it helps it's self out in sand, but now it's also helping pokemon like Garchomp, by giving it Sand Veil, and also giving pokemon like excadril sand rush.
  12. BlankZero

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    Have you run the calcs on Bisharp?

    • +2 252+ Atk Dark Gem Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 530-626 (119.36 - 140.99%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    But wait, there's more!
    Let's say your opponent switches in Landog or Hitmontop to try and break Tops after it wipes your Cress off of the planet. Bisharp picks up another +1....
    • +3 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 381-448 (103.25 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Or, maybe you choose to not attack to give yourself a Failed Sucker Punch? Bam, Bisharp Subs up and now you have to hit it twice just to kill it, but how?
    Bisharp is A Rank, not just because of how powerful that Base 125 Attack Sucker Punch is, but because suddenly, you're playing head games with your opponent without even trying. They're focusing hard on that Bisharp and how they have to play around it now, while you set up whatever plan you want.
  13. BLOOD TOTEM

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    I personally find bisharp pretty underwhelming. The main play style and most effective in the meta is weather, mostly rain and sand. In sand especially I find bisharp just doesn't cut it (pun intended). A solid offense in sand will most likely have: TTar, excadrill, lando T and then other pokes that are there for coverage a strong sp attacker like hydreigon or lati@s a rain counter like gastrodon and something else based on personal preference. Looking at that list two pokes stand out looking like a benefit to bisharp, lati@s and landorus t. In reality though it just isn't that great +1 sucker punch isn't even KOing landorus t and it will KO back with EQ. Lati@s on the other hand is KOd but that isn't even that impressive as a hitmontop with no atk investment is doing 50% of a Latios' hp. Excadrill is always beating bisharp and may even get a free sub/swords dance up which is just gonna cause trouble for you. TTar, whilst weak to iron head can easily switch in and make you waste your dark gem and then predict the steel attack with protect whilst the partner KOs. I can't really say much about how it copes against rain but I can't see it living long against all those spread moves.

    You mentioned the mind games but honestly they work both ways often sucker punch creates a huge hastle for you if the opponent predicts you can end up on the back foot.

    Tl;dr Sometimes bisharp can be more hastle than it's worth can be good can be a hastle.

    I have been pretty negative just because others have covered the positives. Also if this reads terribly it's because I'm on a mobile device and I can't be bothered rereading and sorting out wording.
  14. Nollan

    Nollan EV Master Nollan
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    Both of those calcs assume it has gotten boosts. In general, it doesn't hit as hard as you might hope without them. Here are some calcs, for example:
    -Dark Gem Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Cresselia: 326-386 (73.42 - 86.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -Dark Gem Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 288-339 (67.6 - 79.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -Dark Gem Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 219-258 (75.25 - 88.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -Bisharp Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 212-250 (58.56 - 69.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -Bisharp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 266-314 (68.91 - 81.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -Dark Gem Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 126-148 (48.09 - 56.48%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (Loses Dark Gem)
    -Bisharp Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-300 (77.91 - 92.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Without a boost, it can't OHKO much outside of frail Psychics like Latios. In general, for Bisharp to sweep, you are going to need a boost from Defiant, which is often easier said than done. I'm not saying that Bisharp is a terrible sweeper that you should never use, I have used it multiple times and I myself like it very much. I am simply pointing out that it isn't capable of sweeping large portions of the metagame unless it gains a boost, and this reliance on Defiant to get the job done is what holds it back most of the time. Sure, it is nice when the opponent sends in Hitmontop and makes your life easy, but in reality, anyone familiar with Bisharp isn't going to allow you to snatch a boost that easily. Furthermore, in most cases, you are not going to get more than a +1 boost. Getting to +2 generally requires the opponent to make a mistake, either through misprediction or forgetting/not knowing about Defiant. General weakness to common spread moves such as Heat Wave and Earthquake aren't doing it any favors either.

    -EDIT-
    One more thing to add is that Bisharp generally don't run Substitute because it requires giving up Low Kick, Night Slash, or Protect, all of which are valuable assets for it. Usage stats for June back this up:
    | Moves |
    | Sucker Punch 83.256% |
    | Iron Head 81.294% |
    | Night Slash 64.196% |
    | Brick Break 49.393% |
    | Protect 37.931% |
    | Swords Dance 36.990% |
    | Substitute 10.584% |
  15. Mizuhime

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    Please don't pull ladder players into this lol... +1 iron gem iron head ohkos hitmontop btw and with the mind games Bisharp creates you can also set up a sub with Hetran just based on that. I've also neve rin my life seen low kick on Bisharp lol
  16. Nollan

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    Yeah, for some reason people run Brick Break. x(

    I don't really see Steel Gem Bisharp at all, generally Dark Gem is better. Low Kick Bisharp is a great choice to be honest, without Low Kick you cannot achieve a guaranteed 2HKO on Heatran, and it helps dish out more damage on Hydreigon. Anyways, if you don't run Low Kick or Brick Break on Bisharp, practically any Steel-type will wall it, even with a boost.

    Anyways, a lot of these calcs show that Bisharp often lacks the power it needs. A +1 Steel Gem Iron Head is what it takes to beat Hitmontop, Breloom gives it trouble, Steel types give it trouble, and without a boost a Dark Gem Sucker Punch cannot OHKO 252/0+ Cresselia, who can then hit it with Thunder Wave, or Hidden Power [Fire]. When facing a Bisharp, the main thing is to keep your cool, and think rationally. A lot of people panic when they see it, simply because they once had an experience when they misplayed and got thrashed by it. For the most part, Bisharp isn't really a life or death matter, you just have to play around it like you would with Hitmontop, Cresselia, Thundurus, or any other pokemon.
  17. Punchshroom

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    Bisharp I found really troubles TR teams with its typing and STAB priority, and Defiant can discourage Icy Wind and Intimidate spam, which allows it to both hit hard and support effectively.
  18. Pocket

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    Bisharp is okay at A - some of us are underestimating Defiant and STAB Sucker Punch. The presence of Bisharp alone makes utility abilities and moves like Intimidate and Icy Wind a liability to spam, which makes execution of team's strategy harder. STAB Sucker Punch coming from a base 125 Atk is also a ridiculously powerful priority move. There's nothing in Doubles that can really do what Bisharp does.

    I also support Nollan's push for Darkrai to B rank - its Speed and versatile offense is really useful for sniping mons, and it's bulky enough to tank some powerful neutral hits and super effective priority moves. Dark-type is a great offense typing in Doubles, inflicting major damage to all the Trick Room Ghost and Psychic mons. Outside of its broad offensive coverage, Darkrai also possesses some nifty utility moves like T-Wave, Disable, Taunt, and Will-O-Wisp. C rank is a bit low for such a stellar mon.
  19. Nollan

    Nollan EV Master Nollan
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    Nominating Virizion for B Rank.
    Sorta surprised no one has mentioned it yet. Virizion benefits from its Grass/Fighting typing and 108 base speed. Resistances to Water, Rock, and Ground really help it against Rain/Sand teams, and it can hit hard in return with Leaf Blade and Close Combat. Beyond that it has many support options like Taunt, Quick Guard, Helping Hand, Sunny Day, and Dual Screens, as well as a solid 91/72/129 bulk. It can also hit off of its SpA, though Focus Blast is a bit shaky, so physical tends to be the more reliable. Overall, its Grass/Fighting typing and numerous support options make it a nice team supporter, and a nice option against the common weather starters in Politoed and Tyranitar.
  20. Audiosurfer

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    Ok, making a nomination of my own:
    Latias to A rank: Why Latios is A but Latias is B is beyond me. While Latios is the more powerful of the two, Latias is a much better weather check, with its added bulk being handy against things such as Rain and Sand (and Sun but Sun is trash) teams. In comparison, Latios barely checks Rain defensively, as he doesn't like to stomach repeated Rain boosted Water attacks that Latias is better able to handle. This quality means that Latias is a much better team supporter, being able to utilize things such as Tailwind and Helping Hand to great effect to help out the rest of the team members. Latios however, is more of a standalone Pokemon with limited support applications. The two Dragons are of equal quality, with one not being notably better than the other (I'd even say Latias is better than Latios) so if Latios is A Rank the Latias should be too.

    In terms of other people's nominations, I'd say that I disagree with Virizion for B rank. While it can check Rain well defensively, it can often struggle to threaten well built teams offensively, making it a liability in some cases. Although it resists Ground and Rock type moves, it lacks any form of recovery and its Defensive stat is middling so it will quickly fold to repeated hits. While it can hit common members of Rain/Sand teams super effectively, saying it can hit hard is definitely a stretch, as it has average Base 90 Attack and its moves have a low BP (to give you an idea, even with a Grass Gem and Adamant nature Virizion only has a 6% chance to OHKO Defensive Politoed). It's even further hampered by the fact that omnipresent Intimidate support reduces its lackluster Attack stats even further. Also, the fact that Close Combat results in defensive drops means that its usefulness in the role of weather check is drastically reduced (for example, Virizion can't OHKO ChopleTar with Close Combat, while there's a 31% chance for TTar to OHKO in return factoring in the Defense drop) and Virizion becomes easy pickings after using the move. One could just say that running Close Combat is bad anyways, but you miss out on KOs if you run Sacred Sword instead (2HKO on standard Ferro becomes a 3HKO, go from a guaranteed OHKO on Hydreigon to a 2HKO, etc.). Even if you overlooked these flaws in its Rain/Sand matchup, Virizion is often dead weight when not facing Rain or Sand due to these issues. In comparison, Breloom, which shares the same typing, has stronger matchups across the board and is a much more powerful Pokemon (checks Rain and Sand better too). Virizion can be great at getting rid of specific threats like Politoed, Gastrodon, and Rotom-W, but in general Breloom is a better option outside of specific instances, which is why Virizion should be C rank.

    I do support Darkrai to B Rank though, since as Nollan and Pocket have said, it's powerful, speedy and versatile (might talk more on it but atm don't feel like it).
  21. Nollan

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    In theory, Virizion does have recovery in Synthesis, but this is still (like Moonlight on Cresselia) fairly unreliable. I typically run Fighting Gem for the exact reasons mentioned here, but Grass Gem Leaf Blade is also capable of scoring a OHKO on Tyranitar, dealing 139.6 - 164.35% to Max HP Tyranitar (This is all assuming you run an offensive variant, with no bulk investment). With a Gem, Leaf Blade also KOs 252 HP Politoed, and can break through Gastrodon w/ Rindo Berry and Rotom-W. As such, similarly to Breloom, it makes a useful assistant to Rain. I might also argue Virizion can use its high speed in many battles, and with Helping Hand access, as well as Dual Screens and the likes, it is not dead weight against most teams.

    The last thing to note is that the B Rank can also be for "Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a pokemon in the A or S Rank, but are otherwise dangerous". Virizion clearly is partially outclassed by Breloom. However, it has many of its own merits in that it has more bulk and speed, the special bulk especially coming in handy against Rain teams. This bulk allows it to make use of support options that Breloom really can't use effectively, such as Sunny Day.
  22. BlankZero

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    Nollan's argument is very convincing to me. Virizion being a dangerous Grass/Fighting that is outclassed overall by Breloom is perfectly viable for B rank.
  23. Audiosurfer

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    There's definitely nothing dangerous about Virizion, especially taking into account low BP STAB and middling base 90 offensive stats. Even against teams that its meant to check it's not incredibly threatening, certainly not more so than Breloom in most cases. When you look at weather threats that need checking (Politoed, Ttar, Excadrill, Gastrodon, Heatran, etc.) Breloom handles them much more easily with Mach Punch and Bullet Seed, and isn't reliant on a Gem to nab KOs on these Pokemon. Also, saying that Virizion's increased bulk makes it a better weather check is a very one-sided argument, since it ignores the Defensive drops from CC that either force it out or make it easy pickings for attacks from things it should be checking (see my previous calc involving TTar for example). And as I've said previously, CC is needed to check things since Sacred Sword is way too weak. So you either choose between the ability to net important kills or more survivability. Either way it's very bad for Virizion's ability to fulfill its role of a weather check. Taking this and what I said in my last post into account, you see that Virizion is definitely more of a C rank mon. The C Rank definition is as follows: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks. Given what I've shown, Virizion would be C rank since things like low power and Defensive drops from CC mean that it can't check weather consistently, and it's usually a worse choice than Breloom, so yeah. Also, here's a conversation we had about Virizion in #doubles that further goes over some of my reasons for Virizion not being a B rank mon.
  24. Nollan

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    When looking at Virizion, I can see it is easily outclassed, and doesn't hit as hard as you might hope . Still, I am not convinced it belongs in C Rank. It definitely enjoys bulk and with a Gem boost it can get the job done. Breloom is definitely a stronger choice 90% of the time, but this does not necessarily mean it doesn't belong in the "B" Rank. C Rank is for "Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks". While it is inferior to Breloom in most cases, it can consistently get the job done due to its bulk allowing it to tank hits. Close Combat hampers this somewhat, but switching out is a way to reverse this (there is often some risk/reward associated with this), and Sacred Sword remains a secondary (and much weaker) option. The main reason, however, I am not convinced of C Rank, it that it can hit off of its Special Attack as well. This is something Breloom can't do, and Giga Drain allows it to extend its durability through healing. While Focus Blast is a shaky attack, it doesn't have any defense drops, allowing Virizion to keep its bulk intact. It also gains Hidden Power, which can be used for some extra coverage, such as Ice. Overall, I'd say Virizion is definitely hanging between these two ranks, but its versatility is what earns it a niche over Breloom, who for the most part is pretty predictable as to what set it is running.
    Shiruba likes this.
  25. Audiosurfer

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    I'm not even sure what you're saying at this point. In case you didn't read the C Rank definition C rank mons are typically inferior to Pokemon in higher ranks, so how you can admit to it being worse than Breloom 90% of the time and still go on to try and challenge a C Ranking is beyond me. Also, the whole versatility argument is pretty lousy considering that both its physical and special sets aren't very good. Virizion is versatile in the way that Lucario is versatile in being able to run a Follow Me set or a Final Gambit set. What I'm getting at with that is that versatility is irrelevant if all of the sets you can run are subpar. Breloom may be very predictable, but it still forces your opponent to play around it and still does its job very well despite you knowing all of its moves 9/10 times. Spore is also superior to any 3rd option Virizion has at its disposal too. Since both physical and special underperform that argument should be disregarded completely. Special is still plagued by almost all the same things as physical (low BP, poor offensive base stat) and instead of Defensive drops it has to deal with awful accuracy. Also, there are still flaws with Focus Blast > CC even if you do hit (for example you lose the chance to OHKO 252 HP Chopletar you have with a Physical set). And I think you're overstating its bulk. While it is pretty bulky on the special side, physically its bulk isn't anything to write home about, which can really hamper its survivability.

    tl;dr Virizion <<<< Breloom, not that great of a weather check, C Rank please.

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