BW2 Doubles Viability Ranking Thread

Laga

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ok guys, let's start discussing something different. I am moving Amoonguss to A rank because of it's supporting capabilities allowing it to form extremely anti meta trick room setter core alongside (trick room setter here), trick room also being quite the anti meta strategy, considering how focused almost any metagame is around speed. Also, since it apparently works on non TR teams too, I think we should just leave it at A.

My point is, the Amoonguss discussion has literally become discussing the viability of a single fricking ability on the one pokemon that is the discussion topic, whilst the only really notably good poster on this topic is Nollan, especially since he correctly states that we look stupid discussing an ability in a thread where we discuss viability of pokemon. He comes up with great arguments about why he thinks Amoonguss should be A rank, and they are also convincing. Therefore,
Not to be annoying/stupid or anything, but it honestly seems that rather than discussing the strengths and weaknesses of Amoonguss, we are bickering over the viability of Regenerator in Doubles. Honestly, there are bulky teams that work well and are designed to switch in and out flexibly, and in those, Regenerator can be a considerably viable option. Otherwise, not so much. Also, can we not punch babies, that would be mean ;-;

Anyways, I stand by my last post, arguing Amoonguss's A Rank is deserved through Water and Fighting resistances, as well as the ability to Spore opponents and annoy Trick Room teams (or support them). Honestly, something of its talents (which no other pokemon can replicate entirely) should be A Rank, regardless of whether Regenerator is a good choice on it or not. While it missing out on redirecting Fake Outs and the lot, it can still put things to Sleep WHILE also being capable of redirecting attacks, which nothing else can do reliably (probably something out there with Follow Me + Hypnosis lol). I personally like it more than Togekiss, since (apart from Ice and maybe Fire) it weaknesses are uncommon, it can counter common playstyles, and it can Spore annoying things. Togekiss also has weaknesses to Electric, Ice, and Rock, all three of which you see on a large portion of teams.

In response to nyttyn's post, I would like to say a few things. First off, "zero offensive presense" implies that it literally can't dent anything. Against Rain and Sand, I find its Giga Drain to be very effective, as it not only deals a solid ~40%, it also heals in return, extending longetivity. Also, it is great at soaking up hits due to a much larger selection of resistances than Togekiss, allowing it to last longer than Togekiss in many cases. I will agree on Regenerator being situational, but since you have teammates, you can control a good amount of that "situational" with good 'mons to switch to.

Well, I'm really ashamed that I just repeated my last post with a few tiny additions. Whatevs.
this (and the other one too) is the first post that has enough quality to receive a leaderboard point. Congratulations Nollan!

And guys, pls come up with some other pokemon that doesn't fit it's tier, everything we need say about Amoonguss has already been said.

Edit: Oh, and take this post as an example if you other peeps want to make "good posts". If you discuss just the pokemon and it's traits, and put forward legitimate reasons as to why you think it should be moved, whilst avoiding getting mad at people with different opinions arguing. Basically, don't reply to others like "I disagree with you" but more of a "I am of a different opinion that you" approach to your post.
 
ok guys, let's start discussing something different.

I would like to discuss moving Landorus-Incarnate UP to A Rank.

89/125/90/115/80/101

While Lando-I lacks to sheer power of Landog, and Intimidate, which is handy as all get out in the current metagame, I think there's a lot to be said about Landman.

Firstly, it has the stats to pull off either a Physical set, a Special Set, or even going Mixed. This versatility alone makes it highly unpredictable (unlike Landog) and coupled with its 101 Base Speed, makes it a very under-appreciated threat.

Secondly, it has two strong abilities in Sheer Force (usually seen in its Special set) and Sand Force (a great tool for Physically based LandMan). While Sheer Force allows Lando to hit terribly hard with LO recoil negated, it is limited to single-target moves, which can be hard to deal with should your opponent Protect or switch in a Flying/Levitate mon into your Earth Power. Physical Landorus can spam Earthquake all day, or use Rock Slide to its advantage, hitting MUCH harder than Landog after a boost from Sand Force.
  • 252 Atk Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar in sand: 380-450 (111.11 - 131.57%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 326-386 (95.32 - 112.86%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Landorus also sports that usable 115 base Special attack, giving it a viable usage of Hidden Power, Psychic, etc.
Overall, I feel that B Rank is not giving Landorus justice. Yes, Lando-T gets some nifty tools in Intimidate and is usually set up as a bulkier pivot (Fun Fact: Lando-I and Lando-T have the same Defensive stats), but Landorus-I is an offensive powerhouse who is a lot better than we give him credit for.
TLDR: Lando-I needs to be A Rank because it really is that good.
 

SpartanMalice

Y'all jokers must be crazy
I think with EQ and Rock Slide's status as spread moves a mixed set could work very well here especially with his speed. You could run those two moves and HP ice, which could work well against opposing Lando-T trying to nerf it with intimidate, or maybe Psychic for Hitmontop, and idk what Focus Miss will cover as I'm not too used to doubles. I actually thought he'd be banned here too, however.
 

Laga

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The first time I faced Audiosurfer's Sand team, I was caught completely off guard by his Substitute Landorus-I. Avoiding Sucker Punch and possibly playing mindgames with Fake Out user + Substitute Lando makes it a huge threat, especially the first time.

But despite this set being very good both coverage wise and mindgames wise, I think that Excadrill almost always outclasses Landorus-I as a sand abuser. Basically, with Life Orb, Excadrill becaomes more powerful than Landorus even with Sand Force active, whilst being much, much faster. Landorus could of course run an all out attacking set with LO too, but the residual damage hurts him more considering how a lot of the tier outspeeds and revenge kills it. Although it makes great use of Substitute + EdgeQuake, almost anything can make use of Substitute + good coverage moves (Fighting + Rock / Electric + Ice / Dark + Fighting etc.)

The only thing I can see in using Landorus over Excadrill is it's better defense and resistance to Fighting type attacks, and Landorus-T pretty much abuses this better without being reliant on Sandstorm to be active.

Those are my comments on the Sand Force one.

Sheer Force special attacking set is something that sounds interesting. Everyone who has played OU knows how huge of a threat Landorus was. Being that spread moves do less damage than targetting attacks, this is the set that will be most likely to nab KOs. I have not tried it yet, or faced it, but I guess it is almost the only reason I would personally use Landorus over Excadrill or Landorus-T.
 
I'm a bit borderline, but I think I edge out a little at supporting Landorus for A Rank.

Physical Landorus is a very potent threat, and sadly it has been overlooked recently in favor of Landorus-Therian, who has several advantages, such as Intimidate. There are, however, several advantages that Landorus has of its own. As mentioned by Blank, it has a solid 101 base speed, which makes it faster than a lot of threats that Landorus-T cannot outspeed, most importantly the various pokemon at the 100 mark, such as Volcarona. It also has Sand Force, which allows it to have a stronger Earthquake and Rock Slide than Landorus-Therian does in a sandstorm (I would note that the physical set is more or less going to be inferior to either Garchomp or Landorus-Therian outside of sandstorm, so it should really only be used on a Sand team). Landorus also has the potential to run Hidden Power [Flying] to decent effect on a physically-biased mixed set as well, which is nice for putting a stop to Breloom and Heracross, both of which resist its EarthSlide combination.

Special Landorus is very underlooked, often because it lacks a lot of options that work well there. That said, an essentially 120bp Earth Power is going to hurt a lot. It also has Hidden Power [Flying], Focus Blast, Hidden Power [Ice], and Sludge Wave for some other options. Sludge Wave especially gets my attention, though it might be because I'm desperate to see something that can use it viably. While it does not have stellar coverage, Sludge Wave is Landy's only special spread move, and it is fairly powerful with a Sheer Force boost, essentially becoming 95bp for both opponents, equal in power to Blizzard, but with far worse coverage and no reliance on weather. I cannot confirm it is effective at this point, though I can say I am certainly interested in testing it. Either way, Earth Power and Hidden Power [Ice] alone grant it superb coverage, and the fact that people expect it to be physical can be used to your advantage.

As for Laga's comments, Excadrill has trouble in that it is very frail, something Landorus is not. Landorus has the advantage in that it is still fairly fast, while hitting just as hard thanks to Sand Force and having the ability to tank hits. I myself have been trying out Landorus and so far I find it very nice, especially since it doesn't fear Mach Punch and losing its precious weather as much. I might also add that Excadrill is weak to a lot of attacks, including Earthquake, Surf/Muddy Water, Heat Wave, and Close Combat, and almost any team is going to have at least two of those (EQ and CC). Excadrill is admittedly annoying for overpowered flinch hax though (:x). Anyways, the B Rank is reserved for pokemon who can NOT sweep through significant portions of the metagame, and as far as I can see, Landorus is perfectly capable of sweeping significant portions.
 
Well I haven't seen a lot of low rank or lowering rank discussion, so Shuckle for D Rank.

Let's face it. Shuckle is pretty bad. It has Guard Split and Power Split to work with, but it also has no offensive presense whatsoever, only capable of dealing damage with Toxic. It is also incredibly predictable, the only thing it can do other than Toxic and Protect spam is the split moves, so people can easily double attack its teammate, or Fake Out Shuckle, stopping it cold. This is clearly a small niche, and it is more trouble then it is worth most of the time, fitting D Rank very well. It also lacks good resistances and has Water, Rock, and Steel weakness, only furthering its flaws. I really don't think I need to say much more, it is pretty meh overall.

I'll also push Sableye for B Rank, and Yanmega for C Rank

Our good devil Sableye has trouble in that it is shut down by other Prankster Taunts. This can be remedied once by Mental Herb, but items like Sitrus Berry are also desired. The reason that I believe it earns B Rank is diversity. It is one of two Prankster pokemon to have Fake Out, and the only Ghost with it (iirc). It is also the only pokemon with priority burn, which is great for putting a stop to Excadrill, Tyranitar, etc. If you are worried about no offensive presense, it can do a fairly productive amount of damage with Foul Play. Trick is also a nice option, slowing down or crippling potential threats. Other options include: Captivate, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Taunt, Gravity, Pain Split, Recover, Substitute, Feint, Helping Hand, Icy Wind, and Swagger (but don't use it, confusion hax is lame and noob). Like Whimsicott, it has a plethora of options to use, but it has a better typing (Fighting and Psychic immunity :D), and less/no bulk, speed, Tailwind. This diversity keeps it from being eclipsed, and while annoying, Taunt weakness is something you can work around. Priority Taunt is also not going to be on all teams, probably only 50% or less of them (unless you are facing someone who absolutely loves Thundurus).

Yanmega has two fairly effective yet uncommon STABs in the metagame. While you see a lot of Flying types, many of them (Landorus-T, Thundurus, etc) don't have effective Flying STAB outside of Hidden Power. This unique combination is a very effective one, allowing you to heavily damage Cresselia, Hitmontop, etc. Speed Boost is also nice, allowing you to gradually get faster and faster, and you can outspeed almost anything after a boost or two. Yanmega does however hate Thunder Wave, so keep it away from Thundurus. Besides mere offensive presence, you can also put that massive speed to use by quickly putting up Tailwind and/or messing with weather via Sunny Day. Feint and Hypnosis are effective options as well. However, Tinted Lens is also a wonderful choice. Who needs speed, with a little Icy Wind support, Tinted Lens Yanmega is capable of dealing heavy damage. For example, Bulky Thundurus takes 51.38 - 60.77% from a Bug Gem Bug Buzz. While not exactly amazing, an offensive Thundurus takes a minimum of 82%. In my view, C Rank is a good place for such a pokemon, as Yanmega can truly be a monster dragonfly when given the right amount of support.
 

Laga

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I moved Shuckle to D rank for obvious reasons, and moved Yanmega to C rank.

I am hesitant as to whether or not I should move up Sableye and Landorus though, so I would like to see some more discussion on those 2, especially Sableye.
 
Well atm I don't have much to add about Sableye, I did forget to mention Snarl access though, and I'll try to go into more detail on it.

I find Sableye to be a pretty standard support pokemon, with the sacrifice of bulk for speed (via Prankster). It has Taunt issues, which I mentioned, but outside of that it can be very useful, either as a sacrifice lead to start you off which an advantage, or a bulky support 'mon that keeps pressure on the foe for a duration of the match (usually via Recover/Pain Split). The reason, in my view, that it deserves B Rank, is high diversity and the ability to fulfill several similar roles. It is probably one of the best Trick Room counters, since it has a great typing that most Trick Room setters hate, priority Taunt, Recover/Pain Split (probably Pain Split since Trick Room teams tend to have pokemon with high HP investment), and Fake Out, as well as Foul Play. At the same time, it can troll physical attackers (especially Fighting types) with priority Will O' Wisp. You can also play a very annoying hax role with Substitute and Swagger, mess with weather via Sunny Day, slow something down with Trick, etc. Offensive presense can be priovided via Foul Play or Helping Hand if needed, though the second isn't really "offensive". Overall, it has a great typing (Fighting, Psychic, and Fake Out immunity), and can change its moveset to fit your team's needs. As the only Prankster pokemon with Ghost typing, one of two viable ones with Fake Out, and the only with Will O' Wisp, it is far from eclipsed.

In the area of Landorus, I am also a little hesitant.

In the point of "outclassed" by Excadrill, I disagree heavily though, they are incredibly different. While both tend to abuse Sand, and both have secondary abilities that are usable, typing and base stats make them very different. Landorus has a better typing for Doubles overall, dual-Ice weakness is a sacrifice it will be willing to make for Ground immunity and Fighting resistance. Excadrill is weak to Mach Punch, as well as Ground and Fire. Most importantly, Excadrill is also not bulky enough to switch out much, making it despise Intimidate a lot, especially Landorus-Therian and Hitmontop, who happen to be the most common Intimidate abusers. To show Excadrill's hatred of Intimidate, here are some calcs:

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 134-160 (44.07 - 52.63%) -- 18.36% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 237-281 (58.66 - 69.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 242-283 (72.45 - 84.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 161-190 (44.47 - 52.48%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 142-168 (37.17 - 43.97%) -- 99.95% chance to 3HKO

I'd go on, but the point shows that after one Intimidate, anything other than frail pokemon or middling in bulk pokemon that are hit super-effectively are only 2HKOd at best. Landorus has this issue as well, but it can switch out easier due to higher bulk and good resistances, and also can run U-turn in order to damage something while it switches. Excadrill is obviously the faster, but they hit about just as hard:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal in sand: 153-183 (34.45 - 41.21%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after weather
252 Atk Life Orb Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal in sand: 173-204 (38.96 - 45.94%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after weather

Obviously, you aren't going to be running Life Orb on Landorus much, Yache is usually better, but the point is that they hit about the same attack level with the Sand Force boost factored in. So far, I have found that I enjoy Landorus a bit more than Excadrill due to the fact it can live hits, and the Fighting resistance and Ground immunity in particular give it good synergy with Tyranitar, which makes them a nice Sand pair. The other point is Landorus-Therian, who shares Landorus's nice bulk and typing, but in exchange for Intimidate and hence less reliance on Sand, and also Garchomp, who is a tad faster, and has a nice Dragon STAB, but sacrifices the nice resistances Landorus has. On the subject of Lando-T, I find it nice, but Landorus hits harder in Sand:
252 Atk Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bisharp in sand: 308-366 (92.21 - 109.58%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 266-314 (79.64 - 94.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

One of a good few examples of what Landorus's higher attack can gain. The higher speed is also helpful, giving Landorus the ability to outspeed things like Volcarona and Hydreigon without having to run a Scarf or such, which is obviously a nice advantage. Garchomp is also able to do this, but it loses out on Ground immunity and Fighting resist, and cannot hit Cresselia as hard (Landorus has U-turn, which is one of a few possbilities for slot 3). Overall, I am postive Landorus easily stands out, but what I am not positive on is whether its reliance on Sand holds it back enough to keep it out of A Rank.
 
While Landorus thrives in Sand and would definitely prefer it, it still works outside of sand. I feel like it deserves A Rank mainly due to its power, it's unpredictability, it's good, trolly speed tier (and TWave immunity), its fighting resistance and ground immunity, and it's overall badass factor. Most of these it shares with its Therian forme, but Landog can't run a Special set or a mixed set.
 
While Landorus thrives in Sand and would definitely prefer it, it still works outside of sand. I feel like it deserves A Rank mainly due to its power, it's unpredictability, it's good, trolly speed tier (and TWave immunity), its fighting resistance and ground immunity, and it's overall badass factor. Most of these it shares with its Therian forme, but Landog can't run a Special set or a mixed set.
Don't forget the higher speed tier, and offensive power in Sand. :p
 
I nominate Raikou to B Rank
It is very fast, has nice bulk, and enjoys abusing Snarl a lot, using it in combination with a dual Intimidate core (LandoTop), and the results can be devastating. It is also a good choice against many Rain teams, weakening their attacks. While it can be a bit one-sided, and has a few flaws (notably the EQ weakness), with the right support, it can be a nuisance to deal with. It can also use its speed in a more supportive role, with access to dual screens, thunder wave, etc.

I would say more, but I am too busy atm, I'll probably go into more detail later on (either me or blank).
 
A couple of other things to mention about Sableye: magic coat is usable if you're worried about the taunt weakness and various other status (and people often look to status Sableye since, with no weaknesses and priority recover, it can be deceptively hard to just destroy it with powerful attacks) and snarl is good to use alongside an intimidate mon. Sableye is arguably the best gravity setter, since it gets priority on it and quite likes having a perfectly accurate will-o-wisp itself. Helping hand, sadly, is incompatible with prankster and so should never be used. So yeah, Sableye is not exactly short of options.

No mention of sheer force Landorus? Edit silly me, nollan has already done it.
 
Hi, I'm new to Doubles, and I was wondering what makes Hitmontop S rank? I'm really new and just looking to learn, and I wanted to know why he is so good
:)
 

Audiosurfer

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Intimidate is one of the best abilities in the metagame, it has access to Fake Out and it also has a fantastic support movepool (Wide Guard, Feint, Helping Hand, etc.) so it is near always a good choice for a team.
 
Hitmontop is the only pokemon to have Intimidate, Fake Out, and Wide Guard. That alone is a great reason to use it, but it also has many other options in Sucker Punch, Feint, Helping Hand, etc.
 
As well as the support options it has at its disposal, fighting gem-boosted close combats really hurt. No other pokemon can be such a versatile supporter AND such an attacking threat while maintaining decent bulk. Generally Top gives you two or three intimidates, two or three fake outs and a KO per match, that's a big contribution to the team. Also it isn't really bothered by what the weather is, whether trick room/tailwind is active, etc, it can do its job in any conditions.

This question makes me wonder whether we shouldn't start taking write-ups. For newcomers, it is not so important to tell them what is good and what isn't, as to tell them why certain mons are good, how to use them, and how to beat them.
 

Laga

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Write-ups might be a very good idea, especially since people new to doubles might have a hard time understanding why some pokemon are much more viable here than in singles, whilst some are the exact opposite.

That said, I think we should wait till tags come back; otherwise write ups will fill a lot :/

Edit: also a small update; Blank, Nollan, Eggy and I worked on some new rank definitions the other day, and since I think they are pretty good, go give them a pat on the back or something :)

Edit 2: yeah, also try putting suggestions out as how they fill these new rank defenitions, considering how we formulated them after the doubles metagame rather than the singles metagame. The whole "Sweep or wall significant portions of the tier" is pretty stupid as over 95% of pokemon in doubles do not wall specific pokemon or sweep teams; they do damage or support the pokemon that do damage. Or do both :P
 
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Write-ups might be a very good idea, especially since people new to doubles might have a hard time understanding why some pokemon are much more viable here than in singles, whilst some are the exact opposite.

That said, I think we should wait till tags come back; otherwise write ups will fill a lot :/

Edit: also a small update; Blank, Nollan, Eggy and I worked on some new rank definitions the other day, and since I think they are pretty good, go give them a pat on the back or something :)

Edit 2: yeah, also try putting suggestions out as how they fill these new rank defenitions, considering how we formulated them after the doubles metagame rather than the singles metagame. The whole "Sweep or wall significant portions of the tier" is pretty stupid as over 95% of pokemon in doubles do not wall specific pokemon or sweep teams; they do damage or support the pokemon that do damage. Or do both :p
Nollan pats self on back. On the note of write-ups, they are a very helping thing, though as mentioned w/o HIDE tags, they take up a lot of space, probably better to wait 'til those are back. Some more articles and such could be nice though.
 

Level 51

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I'd like to nominate Jirachi for B Rank, or at least C Rank.

Thanks to the Tanabata event, Jirachi gets 3 new moves - Draco Meteor, Meteor Mash and interestingly, Follow Me. Jirachi can now work with a support role, capable of allowing a non-EQ sweeper to clean out the opponent's team.

Although it might seem that Togekiss is a better option due to its EQ immunity, there are a few interesting points to note about Jirachi:
- It's tied with Raichu and Volcarona as the second-fastest user of Follow Me/Rage Powder, and can outspeed neutral 252 Hitmontop without any Speed investment; thus it makes a good partner for setting up TR
- It has more physical bulk than a similarly-invested Togekiss
- Draco Meteor is a potentially interesting choice to take out Latios/Garchomp
- Helping Hand is always good, allowing Jirachi to take up more of a support role (except it lacks Tailwind :c). It does get Icy Wind though, unlike most (all?) other Follow Me/Rage Powder users.
- Serene Grace Skill Swap is really, really funny.
 
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