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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    I've tried a simple offensive Heatran with 248 HP EVs instead of all that Speed, I wouldn't recommend it for everyone as max Speed Timid outruns a LOT of stuff, but it's still pretty cool. I like the extra bulk because too often I'm switching Heatran into Draco Meteors, Outrages, Hurricanes, U-turns, et cetera and finding that it dies too quickly. At the same time, I needed the offensive power Heatran provides, so that was a nice compromise. I must say, it worked as a mighty good tank, reliably setting up Stealth Rock, tanking lots of hits, and hitting really hard too. It's become my new norm for when I use Heatran (assuming it's not Magma Storm). Magma Storm Heatran, on the other hand, has fallen from grace in my hands at least. It used to be a great trapper, and it still is, but the pace of the metagame has changed from BW1, and one miss from Magma Storm can mean a lot. This is especially noticeable when I need Heatran to check things that Heatran is supposed to check, and of course I need some offense, which often can only be Magma Storm. Adding to that, I have to either give up a very useful move for Stealth Rock or relegate it to another mon, and sometimes I just can't do that. Heatran's an excellent pick in the current metagame, and even though I personally don't like it, specially defensive sets do great versus a ton of stuff that rip apart a lot of the metagame. Genesect counters are always in demand, and Heatran is the premier one. It can run Rocky Helmet to solidify its potency against Genesect, and Air Balloon for a safeguard albeit a fragile one against Dugtrio, Landorus-T, and Earthquakes from some Dragon-types. Shed Shell is also a stellar item choice to escape Dugtrio. Life Orb and Leftovers are great too for the power and for some much-needed recovery, respectively. With a wide array of moves, including Stealth Rock, Taunt, Toxic, Roar, Fire Blast, HP Ice, Torment, Magma Storm, RestTalk, and last but not least Earth Power in conjunction with these many useful items, Heatran can cater to its teammates' needs and wants. Despite the prevalence of sun, Heatran is still the amazing Pokemon it has always been.
  2. Masamune

    Masamune

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    What? Mence gets Hydro Pump and Brick Break, Nite gets Aqua Jet, Aqua Tail and Brick Brick amongst others. Both get HP, too...
  3. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    What I think that Lavos means is that they rarely carry moves of those types. Garchomp also rarely carry Aqua Tail, although it heavily damages Heatran with Stone Edge (remember that we are talking about Air Balloon variants).

    That said, I didn't remembered from this new EV spread that can beat Heatran/Adamant Lucario. Thanks to remember. But offensive Heatran is still good if you play it to its strengths. It requires, however, a lot of caution to play since you don't want to waste its balloon.
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I still wonder why nobody uses Celebi anymore, especially the SpD set. Yeah i know Genesect and Tornadus-T can OHKO it, and sometimes get a free switch against it, so what? Heatran is fucked by the presence of rain and by Dugtrio, yet it still sees a lot of usage. I am not saying that they are in the same level, i just compare how they both have very serious downfalls in this meta, but a ton of pros, and the one gets used while the other not.

    Celebi outright walls Keldeo, Sheer Force Landorus, Rotom-W, Breloom, SubCM Jirachi, Starmie, Politoed, SubDD Gyara (when paired with something to tank Bounce such as Skarmory or Jirachi) non NP Thundurus-T, CM Latias (and any Latias in general), any Latios except from Specs, SubToxic Gliscor, Defensive Gliscor, Jellicent, Tentacruel, SubDD Dragonite, CM Reuniclus, and Jolteon. And those are the Pokemon it counters, i haven't even mentioned Pokemon it checks, such as Conkeldurr, Specs Latios, Alakazam, Espeon, Baton Pass chains, Terrakion, Venusaur, and Hydreigon. Excluding Tornadus-T and Genesect, it alone manhandles entire rain teams, and is the best Rotom-W counter in existence, which every rain team without Celebi, Roserade, or Amoongus has problems with. It is also an amazing pivot, as it gets a ton of free switches, and can then either spread paralyze to the opposing team (btw Celebi is one of the best paralyze spreaders) or U-turn out to safely bring in one of your hard hitter or hazard setters.

    Finally Celebi is one of the most synergetic pokes around. If you pair it with Heatran for example, you get an almost perfect defensive core. Same with Gyarados. Oh and Celebi can use Heal Bell to great effect, allowing you to play more aggressive with your offensive pokes, and use Rest on Heatran or RestTalk on Gyarados with little troubles at all.

    And all these stuff are for SpD Celebi, its best set right now. The offensive set is pretty good too, but i won't go in details right now, because half of you reading this will have already fell asleep. Just a small advice: use Thunder Wave on it.
  5. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    What about the Nasty Plot set? I've used it during some time, I then started to use the Offensive set (without NP) and now I'm using the NP set again. It got a little worse now that Genesect and Tornadus-T are everywhere, and it still has the same old problem that it can't muscle its way through the pink blobs, unless you use a gimmicky combination of Nasty Plot, Giga Drain and Heal Bell, but this way you sacrifice important coverage, so it isn't worth using unless you can handle what Celebi misses on coverage. It also has problems getting past Lati@s and Hydreigon unless it packs HP Ice, and can be easily revenge killed by Scarf Landorus-I and Terrakion with X-Scissor.

    However, NP is still a great late-game sweeper against rain teams. I am using it and it is a great lure for Scizors that think that can Pursuit or get rid of Celebi with U-Turn, only to be killed by HP Fire, and it cannot survive on rain as long as it has a boost. It's a shame that most Genesect run Choice Scarf, as otherwise Celebi would be a great lure for most of them. You can still, however, hit him with HP Fire on the switch, and unless it's raining, Genesect will not survive. Also, Celebi still has the bulk to survive Ice Beam from bulky Water-types and HP Ice from Sheer Force Landorus, as long as it is healthy. This gives him time to boost or attack back. It also has the bulk to survive most unboosted super-effective un-STABed attacks, as long as it is healthy.

    What do you think of the NP set?
  6. thebrownie

    thebrownie

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    Yep, that's why a lot of toeds run 252+ specs hydropump, which does like 95% to Ninetails in the sun. Pretty sure if it's in the rain it's ohko easy.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    @Dark Fallen Angel

    NP Celebi is really mediocre right now. There are so many faster Pokemon that can OHKO it, so why even waste one turn boosting? At best you will get a kill and then get forced out. The best way i have managed to use the NP set actually, was by running Tanga Berry and Baton Pass on it, so when Genesect came in, i could tank whatever it did, and then pass the NP to a scary sweeper of my choice, such as Scarf Keldeo in rain, RP Landorus or even Speed Boost Yanmega!!!!

    Instead of wasting one turn to use Nasty Plot, you could destroy the switch in with the offensive set anyway. A simple set of Leaf Storm / Earth Power / Thunder Wave / Recover works wonders. Genesect or Torn-T or any dragon type? T-Wave in their face! Jirachi and Heatran are nuked by EP, and Leaf Storm nukes everything in general. Except from the blobs and some steels nothing else can really switch in safely. If you are afraid of Tyranitar and Scizor pursuiting your ass you can always use Grass Knot and HP Fire instead of Leaf Storm and EP, just be careful because without Leaf Storm you can't do anything to Rotom-W except from paralyzing it and walling it (which is not bad anyway).
  8. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    Ninetales can just predict Politoed switching in (99% of the time it's obvious) and go for Sunny Day (which you should never not have on Ninetales), from where it can proceed to switch to the appropriate mon (likely a Latias/Dragonite) if it is a defensive variant or flat-out OHKO with Solarbeam if it is an offensive set. As long as you're making sure to do that when you think Politoed will switch in, it's not doing much to Ninetales or its teammates. If you've invested in a Wobbuffet or Gothitelle, they're good mons to switch to, and if Politoed is sufficiently weakened (read: low health) and no Stealth Rock is up, Dugtrio can work as well. So no, Specs Politoed isn't hurting Ninetales that badly if you play around it.

    As for NP Celebi, I'm guilty of being unable to use it right. For some reason, it just doesn't mesh with how I play. However, I've faced some well-played ones and gotten heavily damaged. Only preserving my Dragon-type if I've got one (usually Latias, Hydreigon, or Dragonite) or whatever else I've got that counters based on its coverage move (or it could run Recover which just makes it goddamn impossible to kill without a Scarfer). I've been swept by NP Celebi a few times, I can certainly attest to its effectiveness. It's like Lucario in the sense that it sucks if not played carefully.

    The Specially Defensive set never seems to fit just right. For some reason I always seem better off using SDef Rotom-W. That's not true for everyone, as some teams like its presence a lot (especially because it beats Keldeo and Thundurus-T), but checking Water-type sweepers and not Tornadus-T is annoying because I'd rather get that in one slot and can with Rotom-W.

    On Celebi in general, my favorite set personally is the Navi set or whatever it's called now. My preference is Leaf Storm / Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire or Recover (depends on team) / U-turn and Leftovers with HP Fire and Life Orb with Recover. It's nice to have a mon to switch to and hit like a nuke or U-turn for some momentum. It fulfills a niche that it really has no competition for.

    EDIT: huh I guess NP Celebi sucking is not just me, in that case read alexwolf's post for my opinion on it in a nutshell
  9. thebrownie

    thebrownie

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    Except the times where Ptoed switches on someone else and Ninetails switches in and gets OHKO after rocks by a hydropump in the sun?
  10. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    Why are you switching Ninetales directly into Choice Specs Politoed... I mean really, that's just... You should force Politoed out and THEN bring Ninetales in, I was simply bringing up the situation where Politoed switches into Ninetales. What you said is very valid, it is a perfect example of "what not to do ever". That should really only happen when you don't know Politoed's set. Usually it's either defensive or choice. Defensive is obvious because you see Leftovers recovery and choice can be deduced by calcing Specs and non-Specs Hydro Pumps. Just bring in your Water resist and gauge the damage, if you're not sure/want to be sure run it through a damage calc. Through that, you know Politoed's set. Never switch Ninetales into Specs, otherwise you should be fine.
  11. thebrownie

    thebrownie

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    I know what you're talking about, but I was merely pointing out that people switch Ninetailes directly into Toed and if toed is running specs that's basically a dead Ninetails. Staying in Heatran with heatran on toed is bad unless it's defensive.
  12. High28s

    High28s

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    Is Cloyster generally a bad Pokemon to use in OU? I see a lot of people clowning it. I'm building a hyper offense/non-weather/sweeper team and I want to know if Cloyster would be a good addition to my team.
  13. sora13

    sora13

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    It is extremely threatening if it gets a turn to set-up(for context I use LO naive with hydro pump), as it can out speed cs terrakion after a shell smash and ohko specially defensive or cb ferrothorn with icicle spear. there a quite a few scenarios in which it can set up in:

    If you have dragon sweepers like Dragonite and Garchomp who tend to get revenged by Scarf Genesect with Ice Beam, letting you get a free shell smash and go to town. It can also set-up pretty easily on weaker physical attacks, like say a scarf garchomp locked into outrage outrage or donphan/ gliscor's earthquake. I find it useful because it is a physical attacker that can land super effective hits on bulky grounds and isn't stopped by steels. It all depends on what your team needs, for my team it gives me the above.
  14. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Except for the fact that only 20% of them do, 20% is not a lot.
  15. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    But Cloyster can be defeated easily by Keldeo, which resists both of its STABs AND Rock Blast, and can OHKO even with Hydro Pump. Timid Venusaur on sun is also a effective way to deal with Cloyster, and generally unless it's an Ice-type attack, Cloyster is never going to take an special attack, so if the attack in question is not Ice-type, it's generally safe to attack Cloyster. I have seen some people using Focus Sash on Cloyster, and it was generally so safe to attack him, then switch to Tyranitar. Tyranitar hardly could survive Cloyster's attack, but it was generally sufficient to defeat him before it could sweep. As ridiculous as it sounds, Forretress can survive all Cloyster's attacks and OHKO with Volt Switch (unless it has White Herb). Cloyster is a potent sweeper, by myself I don't know if it's a potent sweeper; but there was only one time that I got swept by a Cloyster and that was easily solved changing Venusaur's nature to Timid. All other times, Cloyster was easily stopped.
  16. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    Celebi's not bad at all, but whenever I consider using it, it always gets replaced by Lati@s for having the same amount of resistances in addition to Fire and an immunity to Ground(which comes with Spikes immunity), less weaknesses, higher speed, higher SPA, better STAB, and better overall offensive potential. I guess TTar can't reliably switch into it, and it can take Scalds to the face because of NC.
  17. sora13

    sora13

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    all calcs are after a shell smash and lo w/ 252 atk evs and 4 spatk evs

    Forretress (OU Physically Defensive)Hydro Pump 111.58 - 131.35%(not in rain)

    Keldeo (OU Placeholder)Icicle Spear 72.75 - 88.23%

    Keldeo can barely take a Icicle Spear well, so with any prior dmg like sr and spikes(which are almost guaranteed on any HO team), it's not a very reliable check at all. Foretress gets flat out KOed by hydro pump(assuming sturdy is broken) as well. I admit that most timid venusaur can revenge pretty easily. Cloyster isn't optimal to use on balanced offense at all, but on HO i find it gives me a nice plethora of useful resistances(and that insane defense) and offensive power that allow me to keep my momentum.
  18. Whyyyyy

    Whyyyyy

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    It's really not possible to be succesful if you don't:

    Use permanent weather inducers
    Use choice scarf on at least one Pokemon
    Use a volt turn core

    FACT.

    Matthew EDIT:
    this isn't the type of post we're looking for. This is your first and last warning about this.
  19. thebrownie

    thebrownie

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    That's really not true at all. If you can counter weather and have strong priorities (scizor/breloom/mamoswine) you can do well. I don't get why you need a volt turn core. It's very useful, but not necessary to do well. Claiming what you say is fact is kind of counterproductive.
  20. Whyyyyy

    Whyyyyy

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    Yeah that's the thing, if you don't use any of these things you have to build your team around countering these things, mainly weather,
  21. PDC

    PDC loveless
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    Not true at all, there have been many successful and effective teams that do not utilize weather to win. It is not necessary at all and countering weather threats is just a part of the metagame. They are not broken and can be easily countered with the appropriate Pokemon. Weatherless is really not too hard to pull of anyway, if you look at some of the most solid teams in the metagame, some include weather while some don't. I have utilized many popular teams in the metagame that don't use weather, and they worked very well. I have peaked #1 on the ladder on PS! and PO before with weatherless teams, and there was of course competition between both Sun, Sand, Rain and Hail teams throughout the time. You have to have a plan to actually take care of threats instead of being ignorant and saying it can't be done, which it quite obviously can. Give me a reason behind your claims that you need permanent weather to succeed, as at this point your argument is looking very bleak.

    See, this is not anything that should be shamed upon. A Choice Scarfer was still prevalent on teams in DPP. Like I said in my previous post, a Choice Scarfer gives you a huge advantage as a fail-safe for killing set-up threats such as Dragonite, Salamence, Kingdra, among other fast threats that don't even require +1 speed to do damage. Revenging is a very important part of Pokemon, and especially for offensive teams that need a backbone to get them out of tight situations. How is this bad anyway? We saw the same thing is Generation 4 with Pokemon like Jirachi and Flygon.

    What? This is a ridiculous claim and has no backbone to support it. In fact almost all successful teams nowadays don't utilize VoltTurn anyway, they utilize much different strategies instead of plain out VoltTurn on offensive teams. The best types of team nowadays don't need VoltTurn. If you want further proof of this you can check out the RMT Archive where many notorious BW teams are placed. Barely any of them utilize VoltTurn to a high extent. The only 2 teams that can be classified as "VoltTurn" are ToF's and DarkAzelf's, both who popularized this team style. The other half are not utilizing this strategy to any extent. You are wrong, if anything VoltTurn is decreasing in popularity.
  22. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    Ok, I pretty like Shed Shell Heatran, after a bunch of battles using it and no one using against me any trapper, after stop using it and replaced with Leftovers, in the third battle, a Dugtrio.

    It's me or the usage of Dugtrio has drastically dropped?

    Shed Shell Skarmory can afford wearing it because it is inmune to hazards except SR and SS damage and has Roost, but Heatran suffers from wearing it when the opposite team has no Dugtrio...(except maybe on Stall teams in which Heatran can be ResTalker and/or Wish/Heal Bell support.

    What do you think?

    Also, has anyone tried Meloetta in OU?

    I tried her Specially Defensive +Sp Def with Perish Song, Thunder Wave, Psyshock(or Psychic, I can't remember) and Thunderbolt) in a Stall as a response of Gengar, paralysis spreader, and last one setup mons, and I didn't find her very useful. Being weak to Pursuit doesn't help either.
    Her typing defensively sucks with almost no resistances(inmunity to Ghost and resistance to Psychic) and no instant recovery.
  23. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    funny you mention this. in all the battles where i actually ran restalk shed shell heatran, i NEVER ONCE met a genesect+dugtrio pair on ladder. it really makes me sad when i sacrifice two moveslots and an item just to beat those two, and then i never run into them

    as for sdef meloetta, it is an interesting set with a few niches in OU. they're limited, but with its good natural bulk, well that's gotta count for something. lack of resistances is the real problem. one thing i have seen about it is that it is arguably the best CM reuniclus counter in the game - resists stab, has perish song, and has a royal ton of special defense. i'd prefer to run focus blast over thunderbolt if i was using it in OU - the ability to kill tyranitars looking to pursuit you is really important imo.

    this being said, i have not tried sdef meloetta in OU, so it's all theory
  24. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    I also used ResTalk Heatran with Shed Shell too but it doesn't convince me. ResTalk is pretty bad in this gen with sleep counters reseted when switching.
    At least is useful to kill things such as Venusaur EQ-less or Ninetales at the end of the battle even when Heatran is almost worn down and even Genesects without +1 Sp boost.

    In Melotta I used TBolt as trying something, I didn't think about what to put in.
  25. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Yeah I'm pretty underwhelmed by the lack of usage of Dugtrio too. I almost never see one, and usually Gene + Duggy core is so overrated since most players know how to beat it. Espec. since Scarf Gene sucks, I mean, it's speed tier is kinda crappy imo for a scarfer.

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