BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

^Stall teams arent common nowadays anyway, Reuniclus' story is funny because it came from suspect to the brink of BL.
 
^Stall teams arent common nowadays anyway, Reuniclus' story is funny because it came from suspect to the brink of BL.
That's what happens when you go from checking Stall like a boss to getting checked by one of the most broken pokemon in OU to date who's also a pretty good check to Stall. Now that gene's gone, we should be seeing an increase of both.
 
Speaking of psychic types, had anybody tried the former uber wobbufett lately ? If yes, how has he between ? And has he been successful ? Or if not why ? Just wondering
 

alkinesthetase

<@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
skill swap deo is better if you want to get around magic bouncers, and deo has tbolt for starmie (xatu too if you must). recall the retro life orb modest deoxys that ran psycho boost/tbolt or hp fire to wipe spinners. shadow ball is kind of an awkward in between option. it's also not very strong without investment:

0 SpA Deoxys-D Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Xatu: 116-138 (34.73 - 41.31%) -- 76.17% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Deoxys-D Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 90-108 (26.94 - 32.33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Deoxys-D Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 100-118 (38.31 - 45.21%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

which means if you want it to pack punch, you end up going right back into the old life orb suicide set and that means you start losing matchups against other opposing leads (you sacrifice taunt, magic coat or twave; something's gotta give). magic bouncers are rarer than spinners so it's more important to have the established coverage (tbolt for starmie, hp fire for forry, psycho boost smashes most anything else). either way, those 2 attacks deoxys are a thing of the past.


NP deo will be hilarious - we were actually discussing it in #pokemon yesterday, no surprise - but i doubt it will have much impact. deoxys needs what slots it has, seeing as it already loses two of them for hazards, and mono-attack NP/hazard deo is not very appealing >_> running a deo without hazards is pretty pointless too. you could do some kind of NP/recover bulky thing but bleh better to just slap hazards on and let a strong mon do the boosting.

EDIT: wobb hasn't changed much in OU i think; it's still doing the same stuff - countercoat here, encore there, etc. i think it's been mentioned but custap on the 14th will be nice for some dbond shenanigans
UPDATE: custap will be on the 17th
 
Speaking of psychic types, had anybody tried the former uber wobbufett lately ? If yes, how has he between ? And has he been successful ? Or if not why ? Just wondering
Wobbuffet's a great mon to dispose of scarf users, and with proper prediction can give you a free kill or turn of setup for one of your other mons. The problem here is that you need to bring it into a locked mon that won't 2HKO, or be great at prediction.

The speedy Tickle/Encore variant is great in combination with a strong pursuit user, like CB Ttar or Scizor. This allows you to dismantle walls and choice-locked physical attackers pretty effectively.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
I don't think Gene ever influenced stall so dramatically that it was as low as it was during suspects. The meta is just heavily offensive based - even stall teams run speed investment rather than investing in bulk now (speed so Tenta outpaces Loom, speed on Skarm for Wobby, etc.) I don't see why its absense would make a difference stall wise. I don't ladder on PS much, mostly PO, but I've used the same team on both places and they work reliably the same. The meta's just offensive oritented so I don't think stall will increase too much, like people propsed or implied it will from Gene's ban. I could be wrong since I don't ladder on PS much but that's my two sense on that.


On Wobby, I just don't use it right I think. In theory, it should be great against offensive choice'd threats, but most offensive mons can 2HKO the poor bastard so it can't reliable switch into half of them (making it a check, not counter, to the choice'd threats your targeting), and then it fears set up. Risking Encore risks being 2HKO'ed and Mirror Coat / Counter risks being set up on. I've just never found it quite useful vs. offense since most choice'd Pokemon can bluff or have different sets (preferably ones that can set up). Then again, I might not be using it right, (I don't play stall so maybe thats the issue), or I simply need to predict better with Wobby. The problem is I would either (a) like to use Wobby on a trap core and not worry much about predicting or (b) use a more reliable offensive Pokemon where predicting with it is much more beneficial than with Wobby. Choice'd threats are easy enough to revenge on offensive teams and even give you set up oppurtunity so I don't really see the point. If your super Scarf Keldeo weak than bring in something that resist its two stabs (Dragonite / Lati@s) and you can set up (DNite's DD) or kill (Specs / LO Lati@s). Does anyone have better exprience with Wobby? If so; how do you usually use it? I always find it more of a liablity than a possibly teammate. The only team I've ever seen use it flawlessly was Gamester's sun.

Skill Swap Deo-D is merly o.k. I've tried it in the past, but your usually better off with something else (Night Shade / TWave / Magic Coat) since they generally cover more. I hardly see people use Espeon unless BP and Xatu is usually on sun (and I hardly see many sun teams...). Skill Swap is useful for other things besides what you would think: (stealing Chlorophyl from Venu, stealing Poison Heal from Gliscor, stealing Serene Grace from Jirachi, stealing Shadow Tag from Wobby, and much more). It's not bad, but there are other options to it as well and I would reccommend trying all variations of Deo-D before trying out Skill Swap. I would OC mention it if this were the analysis....
(As for NP Deo-D; its offensive stats kinda suck and its taunt bait and its slow and doens't have the best typing either).
 

alexwolf

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I prefer T-Wave over Skill Swap on Deo-D. The rest of the moves are Taunt, SR, and Spikes with Mental Herb as the item. Skill Swap is nice for Xatu and Espeon, but that's it really. Without T-Wave, SD lead Terrakion, QD Volcarona, DD Salamence, and many other boosters become very dangerous and can punch huge holes early-game to your team. If you want to get rid of Xatu and Espeon, use LO Weavile in your offensive team, which is a good mon for offensive teams in general, or just run a set-up sweeper that can abuse Xatu and Espeon.
 
Actually, one of the better Deo-D teams in the Genesect era ran CB Tyranitar, and it's pretty effective; not only does it give a usually-weatherless playstyle some control over the weather, it was also effective for getting rid of Deo's most hated adversaries, i.e. Starmie/Xatu/Espeon.
 
So I don't know if this is just something related to the lower ladder, but lately I have seen a lot more UU/RU/NU pokemon being used on the ladder to varying degrees of success, and I have to wonder, is this due to those pokemon being legitimately good (a la Tentacruel's rise from UU in DP) or just being niche counters to certain things in the metagame and their usage would drop like a rock should there be any small shift in it?
 

alkinesthetase

<@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
depends on the mon... but in general it's just ladder randoms using stuff that they think is good =/ when you see a magmortar or dusknoir in OU, there's really not much to say.... there are the occasional outliers like lanturn being used to counter thundurus-T, but even then that's usually not a good reason to bring it out of the lower tiers.
 
I'm talking more stuff like Amoongus, Slowbro, Stoutland, Ditto, Sableye, Bronzong, things that actually get some hype in the chats and on the board and the like. I mean obviously you know some random Electivire is shitty but there are others that show up every now and again and actually can counter some shit in the metagame. I dunno.
 
I'm talking more stuff like Amoongus, Slowbro, Stoutland, Ditto, Sableye, Bronzong, things that actually get some hype in the chats and on the board and the like. I mean obviously you know some random Electivire is shitty but there are others that show up every now and again and actually can counter some shit in the metagame. I dunno.
Slowbro is one of the best physical walls of OU.

Sp.Def Amoongus takes a dump on any Keldeo variant

Ditto is a good revenge killer and the best counter to non-sub set-up sweepers

Sableye is a freakin' troll, and newbies enjoy WoW + Confuse Ray shenanigans.

Bronzong checks a lot of stuff, including dangerous threats such as Garchomp, Tornadus; and is very resillent to residual damage.

PD: If you've seen a Sandslash around, it was me ;D
 
I just LOVE using Sableye with Substitute instead of Taunt since the last moments before Excadrill's ban. While it won't stallbreak anything without Taunt, it works against offensive teams, scouting Choice sets (Letting an opposing Latios Draco Meteor to -4 or -6 to get a 'free' switch-in is too good not to be tempted by that), wasting Dual Screens turns, getting an opportunity to Will-o-wisp without thinking of the possibility of it missing AND getting free Foul Play and Recover turns

I've also used Amoonguss on one of my teams - the ability to remove Toxic Spikes just by switching in AND checking a lot of common rain pokémon (Specs Keldeo using Hydro Pump and Tornadus-T being the main exceptions) is amazing, and it becomes even better when you realize it has Regenerator, Clear Smog and Spore

Another underused pokémon I've been using recently is Hitmontop, as my secondary physical wall, rapid spinner, Intimidator and U-Turn sponge - a unique combination that doesn't make it OU because of... well... the fact it doesn't learn Drain Punch and most stall teams being a liability nowadays
 
Oh yeah, I forgot about Hitmontop, that one can be kinda annoying. It's too bad stall isn't too popular nowadays, otherwise I think there'd probably be more pokemon coming up...maybe.
 
Deo-A & N are too damn frail to be using Nasty Plot and we all know it beside they're Ubers already. Deo-S and maybe Deo-D has some potent with Nasty Plot, but....(1. They have more important roles to fulfill acting as support, (2. Deo-D is too slow and offensive weak from the OU metagame viewpoint to be any kind of sweepers and (3. Deo-S is irrelevant to this thread as it's Uber as well.

Deoxys really wanted something like Psystrike, Blue Flame, or something.
 
Why do we care what Deo-A, N, and S get, at least for the purpose of this thread, if they're banned to begin with? Personally 70 SpA and 90 Spe don't really scream NP sweeper to me. It has a decent enough attacking movepool for it, I guess, but I would expect you'd have to run Taunt or something to keep things from walling you: Blissey takes +2 Focus Blast like a champ, and you'd have to run like Modest+Life Orb with Psycho Boost to get and real traction going, but then what do you run for support?
 

Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Sincerely, Nasty Plot is an useless move for Deoxys-D. It isn't going to get past its hard counters anytime soon, and you are still better off using something with Pursuit, like Tyranitar, if you want to get rid of Espeon/Xatu. There are many better Nasty Plot sweepers, such as Celebi, Thundurus-T, and even Mew, all of which have better STABs.

None of those event moves that Deoxys-D gained are of note. Ignore them. Deoxys-D is better off with the standard moves. What I fear is other thing: now that Custap Berry is released, I fear Wobbufeet rising on usage, because if you don't take care, it can take down 2 of your Pokémon. Thankfully, there are many things that can hit it hard enough that it may not survive to get a second kill with Custap Berry.
 

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