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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Anyway, pertaining to the General Metagame, here's my question:
    How well would Agility Lucario do in this metagame?
    I've ran calcs and he can outspeed Tornadus-T and Scarf Terrakion after +2 in Speed. With Adamant Nature and Life Orb, he can 100% OHKO them with Ice Punch and Close Combat Respectively. I've ran other calcs (go look for yourself, http://honko.byethost8.com/manly_calc.html) and with some prior damage and Entry Hazards Support, he can work quite well IMO. Running Double Dance would be nice but then again, Lucario will get that chance once in every ten battles? Anyways, Discuss :)

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    [​IMG]
  2. HardCore

    HardCore

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    You know this is a decent question Tabuu. I was also wondering if this idea was a bit too chimerical for the fast pace BW 2 meta. So as an pretty regular OU player I will state the basics of why Agility Lucario is an ok choice and a poor choice in the current metagame. He's always been good late game. Without the power of +2 attack from Swords Dance Lucario has never really been able to do much with just agility unless it's late game. Pokemon that he can kill late game are the following: Landorus i, non Bulky Landorus T, 75% or less hp Gliscor, Latios, Garchomp, Haxorus, Heatran, Terrakion, Keldeo, Tyranitar, weakened Pokemon of course, Ferrothorn, Gengar, Salamence, Blissey, mamoswince, jolteon, magnzone, Dugtrio, Kyurem forms, and heck other Lucario. That's a nice list, but of course it's not intirely realistic, because Lucario takes damage from Stealth Rocks, Spikes, Life Orb damage, hopefully not too much damage setting up, and Close Combat lowers his defenses. This means that he can only do so much before getting in range of priority attacks such as mach punch (from the start), extreme speeds, bullet punches, and aqua jets.

    Counters and checks to specifically Agililuc: Reuniclus, latias, full health Gliscor, Landorus T can intimidate then switch out or kill depending on switches, Jellicent, Jirachi, Scizor's bullet punch has always done significant damage especially when Luc is -2, Breloom, Azumarill, Tentacruel, Bulky Toed, CB Dnite (especially if it has multiscale obviously), Skarmory, Forretress, and last but not least Conkeldurr. There is great room for late game sweeps, but too much that will constantly get in the way. As far as Agility/ RP users Lucario is outclassed by Landorus i and Terrakion.

    So for the negetives you could say he has a surfeit of counters/ checks, unless you've played a great game Agility Lucario is easily revenged, prone to be attacked by priority moves (some of which can nearly OHKO from the start, due to his low defenses), walled by some of the pokemon above if they are at full health, and not the easiest set to get away with. Some times weakened Pokemon that you set up SD Lucario stay i to mitigate the sweeping potential Lucario has, so without priority moves it makes Lucario an even bigger priority target. I personally wouldn't use Agili Lucario, but unexpected twists can often lead to a victory and if your team is built well with a spinner ( or just a way around getting set up by multiple layers) and the opponent is expected SD Lucario and get surprised it could be in your favor. Lastly he's a complete waste against a stall team, which SD lucario is perfect for breaking through. In the end a team is all about synergy and I know you can say that about any pokemon that can potentially sweep, but Lucario is very strong so as long as you get that one opportunity it could be devastating in most matches.

    I don't like to deter people from being creative and certainly not with a set that has great sweeping potential, however I hope this helps you make your decision.
  3. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Hey guys, how good do you think Custap Berry Gigalith can work. It can set up rocks and explode in a similar fashion to Lead Azelf.
  4. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    Gigalith will be a decent suicide lead for HO teams similar to explosion mew and such.

    The problem is that with such a pitiful 20 speed, it can only take a hit as it sets SR, EQs or fires a Stone Edge and then explode, unless you're using it on Trick Room team.
  5. SpecsX

    SpecsX

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    It's tough to tell. Gigaltih might be used on weather to take care of other weather inducers, but Deo-D gets up more hazards with less cost to a teamslot. That layer of spikes is too good to pass up. The explosion nerf hurts Gigalith too.

    A list of calcs for the most common leads in the meta, based off Antar's usage stats:
    252+ Atk Gigalith Explosion vs 252/252+ Politoed(#1 set):69.27 - 81.51%
    Does a large dent to even fully invested Politoed. All other Politoed are cleanly OHKOd also, which is fantastic.

    252+ Atk Gigalith Explosion vs 252/252+ Ninetales (not common at all):
    (83.14 - 98%) Even if for some reason Ninetales ARE running this weird EV spread, they cant switch in to the Rocks you set up turn one.

    252+ Atk Gigalith Explosion vs 252/0 Deo-D (most common defensive spread)(67.1 - 78.94%)
    Not bad but not an OHKO. Deo-D will STILL gt 2 layers up at least.

    252+ Atk Gigalith Explosion vs 4/0 Tyranitar:(66.27 - 78.59%) This is the most common set, but many also use 252 HP EVs. Still, with no way to heal it off, Tyranitar will be damaged badly, and struggle to stay in to win the weather war.
  6. Siggu

    Siggu

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    And all those matchups would be 2HKOes with Stone Edge + Custap Explosion

    The only problem is Deoxys-D if it doesn't take Gigalith to Custap range (And it won't): Stone Edge is only a 3HKO
  7. SpecsX

    SpecsX

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    Well, you would be setting up rocks turn 1. I guess you COULD attack, but the whole idea is to set up rocks, die, and bring in a sweeper. If you attack, you give up Rocks, which means you give up some crucial KOs.
  8. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

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    Wait, why aren't you using Earthquake here?
  9. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    252+ Atk Gigalith Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 226-268 (66.08 - 78.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    It's not that much better considering Gigalith is only Rock-type

    EDIT: Actually, his calcs are wrong.
    252+ Atk Gigalith Explosion vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 141-167 (41.22 - 48.83%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  10. ChrisTehAwesome

    ChrisTehAwesome

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    On the topic of lower tier pokemon, I've been using this set on my sand team, and its been working fairly well. If only we had excadrill still, maybe it could take some special hits. One of its cooler traits is outspeeding defensive politoeds without sand up, so when they switch in on a SD they are promptly KO'd with earthquake, and I can then switch back out to hippo and win the weather war.
    [​IMG]
    Based Shrew (Sandslash) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stone Edge
    - Swords Dance
  11. deluge

    deluge

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    Now that Custap is out Aggron has a little gimmick.
    It's the only Pokemon with Metal Burst + Endeavor + Sturdy and a handy Sandstorm immunity to boot.

    Pb Aggron
    Sturdy Aggron@Custap
    ~Stealth Rock
    ~Metal Bust
    ~Endeavor
    ~Dragon Tail/Roar/Stone Edge

    SR because it's great and you're likely to get it up either on turn 1 or 2. Then Aggron can go out with glory after doing some damage. Last move is filler in case an opponent is wise to the set and doesn't attack, sets up, or Taunts.
  12. Cinccino

    Cinccino

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    It's bad. Golem is better with STAB EQ. Or simply use Azelf.
  13. Jamiroquai

    Jamiroquai

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    After a short 2 month hiatus, I've decided to come back for a bit. Is anyone able to give me a rough overlook as to how the metagame of OU has changed since mid August ?

    Last time I was playing, Genesect was fairly new, and Garchomp was Uber.
  14. BluhBluh

    BluhBluh

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    Genesect is now Uber, Garchomp has been fre- I mean, came back to OU, and Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are banned.

    EDIT: Oh and Drizzle + Swift Swim on the same team? Banned. For more information: http://www.smogon.com/bw/banlist/
  15. Jamiroquai

    Jamiroquai

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    Cheers man, I was around for the SS + Drizzle ban (thank the lord).

    Is the Metagame totally dominated by rain now ? I mean, unfortunately I missed most of the genesect period, I know before it certainely was.
  16. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Yep, still is.
  17. Jazz

    Jazz

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    I'm not quite sure how this has any competitive relevance at all.
  18. pharaohcalvin

    pharaohcalvin

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    New moves on a pokemon that might have found some use isn't relevant? I simply put it out there to see what sort of brain child would come out of it, and to stimulate discussion. Nothing much came out of it, however, it is still relevant.
  19. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    It's even worse, now that Pokemon like Thundurus-Therian, Tornadus-Therian, and Keldeo are all dominating the metagame.
  20. Forsety

    Forsety

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    And you're doing it wrong too. You left out Sand Force.

    252+ Atk Gigalith Earthquake vs 4HP/0Def Tyranitar: 85% - 101% (294 - 348 HP)

    I'd just stop talking if I were you because they're the exact same.

    252Atk Golem Earthquake vs 4HP/0Def Tyranitar : 85% - 101% (294 - 348 HP)

    I'll remind the rest Gigalith has a far more powerful Rock STAB due to Sand Force and higher attack too, so as long Sand is up it has pretty much rendered Golem redundant being just as strong but with higher bulk and less weakness.
  21. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Your Golem calc is just a smidge off: 86% - 101.8% (lol)

    Custap Berry is a pinch berry, which would imply that Gigalith is using Sturdy, not Sand Force. Otherwise, it won't have as many opportunities to survive attacks and suicide. I still wouldn't use it though, absolute waste of a team slot. You could just use Deo-D and get up two or more layers in that time instead of setting up SR, like a bunch of Pokemon already do, then die dealing like 30% to a Steel.

    I think Keldeo has enough checks and counters for comfort (though it doesn't help that between him and Tornadus-T, they can basically break through anything defensive). Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T, however, are neither easy to check nor counter. Two of those to a team, good luck. Prevent SR just once and you can probably keep your momentum the whole game.
  22. Forsety

    Forsety

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    Sue me for not rounding :P

    I've personally see no reason to use Sturdy over Sand Force Gigalith since it's pretty hard to kill as it is and it's Rock Blast/Stone Edge is just so ridiculously powerful and I see things existing for the sole purpose of suicide setup as useless. But it's of little matter since T-tar/Terrakion basically has the monopoly on OU rock types.


    On the Keldeo + Therians front I'd agree they're disturbingly domineering in this environment and checking them is a plain chore. It more often than not boils down to why are you NOT using a Therian/Keldeo to even the playing field. If you have any check/counter problems just throw in a Dugtrio and call it a day. Also if you haven't done so, try out Keldeo/Landorus-T in a hail team, you'll be surprised how much shit it manages to wreck including other weather teams.

    Given though after seeing the bullshit that was Genesect let loose for so long on paper thin arguments of it's fragile and slow leaves me questioning a lot of the justifications for leaving things around these day.
  23. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Keldeo, when not using Choice Scarf, is actually very easy to check, as while pretty much nothing can safely switch on him, Keldeo can be easily revenge killed afterwards. However, its Choice Scarf set is the biggest problem. Is very hard to check, especially under rain. You must pack something that resist both of its STABs AND can defeat him. Or you must pack something that is a hard counter to Scarf Keldeo, such as Jellicent, Amoongus or Celebi. I am using the former, and it's actually the only reason why I use Jellicent as of now. Terrakion with Choice Scarf is also a little hard to deal with, but at least its STABs can be more easily walled and nothing can boost Stone Edge or Close Combat like rain can boost Hydro Pump/Surf... Also, Scarf Terrakion is weak to both Bullet Punch and Mach Punch, while Keldeo is resistant to Bullet Punch and Ice Shard, while being neutral to Mach Punch.
  24. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    There is nothing wrong with Choice Scarf Keldeo. It might murder more offensive teams with no walls, but more balanced teams can switch their Celebi or Latias into that thing all day and never worry about it breaking through.

    I'm also intrigued as to what makes you think CM + 3 attacks Keldeo is easy to revenge kill. At +1, any Latios or Starmie without Psyshock gets denied and it doesn't just crumble to any Scarfed attack unless it's super effective. The calcs on Scarf Terrakion's CC doesn't look promising. It's not hard to revenge kill, but your statement was so reductionist that I had to question it.
  25. frogoholic101

    frogoholic101

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    What does everyone think of Metagross in the metagame? It seems to have fallen out of favour since this generation started. Does it fill any niches?

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