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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.
Metagross can be a good Rotom-W lure I guess, with Trick + Iron Ball
A waste of a slot and horrible stab to boot. Metagross fails to KO anything and outspeed.
Any form of weather that's not Sand completely fucks Metagross over, and even then the best thing he can say about Sand is that it "doesn't hurt him, at least." His STABs are pitiful, he has 4MSS out the ass, and overall he just really wishes he was UU, where he could actually satisfy a pretty useful niche. Just use Jirachi.
Keldeo is a freakin' monster even with the prevalence of Tornadus-Therian...If Torn-T were to leave OU and leave Keldeo behind...yikes
Agreeing with DarkFallenAngel about Choice Scarf Keldeo. It really is a hell of a Pokemon to check. When I team build and I need to deal with Rain, Keldeo is a Pokemon that always seems to give me problems. I'm then usually forced to run some solid "counter" such as Celebi, Jellicent, or Amoonguss. Sadly SubCM variants can work around Amoonguss if it fails to put Keldeo to sleep. With enough CMs, Giga Drain will fail to work and CM Boosted, Rain Boosted, STAB Hydro Pumps will be nothing to scoff at. Celebi is in the same boat, unless it carries Perish Song, which it really should as it is one of the few reliable counters to Keldeo. Jellicent is another full-stop to Keldeo as long as it lacks HP Ghost. Modest Specs HP Ghost from Keldeo is a 2HKO on Utility Jellicent while Special Wall Variants get a 3HKO...meaning the Jellicent did nothing but sit there and not recover ._.
Due to threats like Keldeo, I think having a Bulky Water or Bulky Grass on your team is some what of a must at this point. They are so useful for checking and countering the never ending Rain that we see in OU
Regarding Metagross, I feel it has taken a deep plunge from its glory days in Gen IV.
The Supercomputer is just not what it used to be. With its passable 90 SpDef, it struggles to take on Special Attackers. Heck, it still struggles from the Physical end of the spectrum thanks to all of the powerful moves and users out there like Terrakion, Landorus and Lucario.
Metagross rarely runs SpDef EVs. Even so, it will struggle to take some heavy hits from Rain Boosted Keldeo and other rain sweepers. Sun Teams don't make it any better as their insane speed and STAB/Pseudo-STAB Sun Boosted Fire Moves will roast Metagross. Even Sand teams make Metagross upset thanks to all of the powerful hitters such as Terrakion, Lucario or Landorus.
My point is Metagross fares pretty poorly against weather teams. Maybe his chance to shine is against Hail Teams but heck...there are some Pokemon that can take on Metagross too.
Metagross is also pretty outclassed in many regards. You want a bulky Stealth Rock setter? Use Bronzong with better overall Defenses and better resistances and immunities. Deoxys-D also plays better than Metagross as it can set up Hazards quickly and prevent common entry hazard setters from setting theirs up.
Yes Metagross could potentially lure in Rotom-W and trick Iron Ball, but Rotom-W will either Volt Switch on you or WoW, crippling Metagross right back...assuming it hits.
Sadly Metagross is just not a top contender this Generation :/
This is unfortunately true, as rain has really overwhelmed the meta to the point that if you don't pack at least 2 solid, bulky water/grass types you might as well scoop against any common rain team. Even if/when Tornadus-t gets the boot I still feel rain will be very dominant, simple because of the immense offensive pressure from CM/choice Keldeo sets and powerful defensive tanks like Tentacruel and Ferrothorn. Hell Thundurs-t and Tornadus-i are solid enough (but waaaaaaay more manageable than Tornadus-t), rain will never be short on offensive behemoths. It's still really fun to pack a Swift Swim Kingdra on your team and watch them play "keep Ferrothorn alive or lose".
I don't want to get too involved with the theorymon, but the thing about revenge killing specs keldeo is that there is nothing as hard to switch in on as specs keldeo, so yes you can try to revenge kill it with w.e, but it isn't exactly easy to KO and whatever you switch in to revenge kill it isn't as threatening as keldeo and so the massive advantage is still there. Scarf Keldeo is a fantastic revenge killer and late game cleaner for obvious reasons (even though it's dumb because it doesn't have u-turn, trick, or pursuit, aldaron).
Created by yours truly n_n
But really. I can't take it no more.
Rain is just so dominant right now...guess the creators at Pokemon were tired of Sand. On your note about Tornadus-I and Thundurus-T. I agree with you. Even if Tornadus-Therian gets the boot, his Incarnate form can pick up where he left off...spamming ridiculous Hurricanes. And TBH I kinda like that form a little more thanks to Prankster lol, but that's just me.
I think something must be done to really balance this stuff out. I'm not really in favor of just banning stuff to Ubers and get them out of OU. Nor am I in favor of another Proposal that could potentially nerf a lot of Pokemon with potential...
Hopefully Gen VI will act as a metagame balancer and not a toppler.
One more thing: I think in this current metagame, Jellicent and Celebi just might start to climb the usage ladder. With their respectable resistances and stats, not to mention utility, they are probably a few of the handful of Pokemon that act as the saving grace against the merciless downpour from Drizzle...What do you guys think we'll see an increase of?
Currently? I don't think there's much we can do, you basically NEED strong resists to hold off those painful Hydro Pumps. Seriously, even Politoed's Scalds hurt a lot in the rain (And I hate Scald, like Water-types really needed a buff). I hope that rain gets a nerf or all the other weathers (mainly hail) get buffed up to be able to compete, but it seems like Game Freak just hates Ice types. Hopefully we'll see a Swift Swim clone for Hail or a really good Blizzard spammer in gen VI.
After the (hopefully) Tornadus-t ban? Keldeo is going to go up in usage, so bulky Celebis everywhere, Jellicent will probably go up also. I also think that Rotom-W usage will go down, Thundurus-t is going to go up in usage A LOT, and Jirachi will probably go down a bit.
Politoed's scald does not hurt...
And are you aware how many checks there are to rain/water moves?
Celebi, amoongus, jellicent, vaporeon, tentacruel, latias, virizon, zapdos, the list goes on.
Atm, there is nothing to do about the metagame until the suspect period ends, so all you can do is adapt to it.
you can't expect to walk in with an early bw2 team and still do as well as before, because the metagame is different
You shape your teams to the metagame, not the other way around
You sure do like debating, huh?
Utterly subjective, but it truthfully is the burn that annoys me most.
What is this supposed to mean? I think I already knew that over 8 Pokemon resisted Water, but I don't usually run a team full of Water resists. The fact that I do usually pack 2 - 3 resists per team just shows the overall dominance of Rain.
...Okay, I wasn't expecting a sudden gift from the heavens to hail teams, I know it's going to be this way for a while.
I barely even played early BW2 as I jumped right back in after a hiatus. I know how to handle rain but it's prevalence and power can get pretty frustrating.
This is a very dangerous and slippery argument, so I'm not even going to go there.
Overall I really want rain to be viable without having to neuter every single threat in the rain, but it's seriously annoying that GF just seems to keep adding to the abusers list and we keep having to go through this cycle.
My point is, rather than talking about how annoying rain is, maybe discuss how to beat it, or what to run on it or what have you.
The difference between the two is that one is unproductive complaining while the other invites discussion.
Lolwut? :p Dangerous and slippery? It isn't even an argument, it's a fact. It doesn't matter what YOU use, the metagame will stay the same. Therefore, you can either change what you use, or do poorly.
I guess you skipped the second half of that post.
What I'm getting at is that that can be perceived and used to justify a lot of things that would have rather poisonous effects on the meta.
In my opinion, beating Rain isn't even as hard as people make it out to be. I typically use Water resists that last a long time. As an offensive player Latias tends to be my first choice, and as an added bonus Latias is one of the best Keldeo checks, if not the best. Jellicent is there too, but don't try tanking Thunders with that. Of course, there is the other option of simply using your own weather, but Hail is really the only weather that matches up well against Rain (that's enough of a reason to use it though). Then there's beating Tornadus-T... Not a whole lot of options here, but you have Jirachi, SpD Rotom-W, Zapdos, SpD Skarmory (kind of). On the offensive side, Jolteon and Weavile are really the only realistic ways of outspeeding Tornadus-T without resorting to Choice Scarf users.
To be honest, there are many viable Water resists, tons of which are very easy to fit on a team (Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Latias, etc.) This alone prevents Rain teams from simply spamming Hydro Pump into oblivion. Tornadus-T, on the other hand, is a little harder to deal with than the Rain-boosted Water moves. Just my two cents.
Just going to respond to this passage, because it caught my attention and it's plain wrong. Having 2-3 water resistances proves almost nothing because:
1) many top tier Pokemon (see Dragonite, Lati@s, Keldeo, Salamence etc.) happen to be resistant to water and I'm pretty sure that people don't use them because they're scared of how "dominant" rain is;
2) water is a pretty strong offensive type, and it's always been. If you carried a team that was weak to water, then chances were you'd have been swept by stuff like LO Starmie, Gyarados, Kingdra etc. in Gen IV, where drizzle Politoed didn't exist;
3) until BW\2 gave rain teams new toys, namely Tornadus-T, Keldeo and Tundurus-T, you could just slap a Rotom-W on any team and keep in check 4-5 members of opposing rain teams with relative ease.
Hopefully with Torn-T and Keldeo getting the boot, rain will go back to the, objectively strong but manageable, weather it was at the end of BW\1.
Alright...I'm sorry for my last post...I was real tired and kinda didn't realize how stupid my post sounded. What I meant was Keldeo and Tornadus-T are too powerful...I kinda generalized them as "Rain"....whoops
I feel that if Torn-T gets the boot Rain is going to be become one step more manageabler....if that makes sense
Keldeo is still a powerhouse of this meta, but for some reason I forgot Latias, Latios, Dragonites, and Ferrothorns existed. All of these Pokemon are able to tank some Hydro Pumps and respond accordingly.
Despite how Rain is not as godly as it sounds, it still is one heck of a dominant playstyle...
It should be noted that Ferrothorn cannot take Secret Sword from Keldeo, and most of those cited Water resists cannot actually take repeated rain-boosted Water-type attacks. To name a few: Starmie, Salamence, and Keldeo. What makes difference here is when you can deal with the opposing Pokémon that has strong, rain-boosted Water attacks by other means, like revenge killing it or outspeeding and KOing with another attack.
That's why I said "some Hydro Pumps" n_n
And yes obviously Ferrothorn cannot take a Secret Sword...I used for as an example of which Pokemon were capable of taking Hydro Pumps from the likes of Keldeo haha
Man, seems like I really gotta clarify myself more ._.
I have a serious question: If rain is so good, why doesn't anyone counters rain teams with swift swimmers like kabutops (rapid spin, aqua jet, rock stab against genies) kingdra (in general good) ?
Answer: Because they're a huge liability outside of rain, and rain Ferrothorn can easily check most SS'ers as well (like Kingdra since its the most common used, if ever used).
Kabutops Landorus I (Rock Polish variant)
252Atk Life Orb/ Expert Belt Kabutops (+Atk) Aqua Jet vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Landorus (Neutral): 58% - 70% (188 - 224 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Life Orb Kabutops (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 172% - 204% (516 - 612 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
252Atk Life Orb Kabutops (+Atk) Aqua Jet vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 35% - 41% (105 - 124 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Dealing atleast 35% damage can help winning some situations
About Ferrothorn: I don't get it, because you succesfully prevented a sweep? Furthermore a moveset for Kabutops like:
Rapid Spin / Aerial Ace (Keldeo) / Super Power (Guess Who?)
Could be easily revenge killing certain treats and it gets speed in rain and atleast a special defense boost in sand. Latter not that important, but it helps against heatran even more i guess?
Yes I know that Kabutops isn't the best Pokemon ever, but ignoring swift swimmer as counter and utility against rain shouldn't be underestimated.
Low sweep is better because it has 120 base against ferro and 100 against heatran, moreover your attack stat doesnt drop. Just as a suggestion if you are going to use it.
Swift Swim(mers) are definitely useful for taking down Rain dominant threats. However I think the reason why we just don't throw them on a team and think that Rain has been covered is because of the fact that Swift Swimmers (Kingdra, Ludicolo and Kabutops) really aren't able to take on Rain threats. They are certainly able to outspeed almost everything and KO many threats but they aren't the most reliable answers. Also if rain is not present they really end up becoming sub-par Pokemon.
Tornadus-T walks in. What can the Swift Swimmers do?
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 238-281 (81.78 - 96.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 152-179 (56.08 - 66.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ludicolo: 455-538 (150.66 - 178.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tornadus-T can massively dent them and then proceed to switch out to the appropriate counter...which is most likely Ferrothorn.
Now let's imagine the situation the other way around...
Kabutops is out first. And let's assume you go for the safe Stone Edge on the Torn-T that's out. Instead the opponent switches to Ferrothorn. Now you go for the Superpower:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 231-273 (65.62 - 77.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ferrothorn will live even with prior damage and in turn:
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 472-556 (174.16 - 205.16%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now let's look at Keldeo shall we?
Kabutops goes for the Stone Edge/Water Fall/Aqua Jet on whatever Pokemon is out. Either the Pokemon dies or Keldeo switches in. The scenario at this point really doesn't matter. Now, you pack Aerial Ace and it does:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 190-224 (58.64 - 69.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scarfed Keldeo (the most common Keldeo Variant you will encounter) responds with:
252 SpA Keldeo Surf vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops in rain: 310-366 (114.39 - 135.05%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Keldeo is able to outspeed (519) as Adamant Kabutops hits (518).
The verdict? You decide.
Let's observe another very popular Swift Swimmer. (I'm a little tired to go and do Ludicolo. However you are free to calc things yourself. If you find that Ludicolo is an answer, let me know).
Tornadus-T is out again. He's going to spam another Hurricane. Is Kingdra really an answer?
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 238-281 (81.78 - 96.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nope. Your answer rain has just taken a heavy hit and probably won't live too much longer.
Now Tornadus-T cannot switch into any moves that Kingdra has. However Ferrothorn can take on Kingdra and wear it down or force it out. This will allow more opportunities and scenarios where Kingdra just might end up switching into Tornadus-T. (Although a little unlikely)
I've calc'd Keldeo's situation and it seems a little hopeless.
My verdict: Kingdra seems to be the most successful at threatening Rain Teams. However realize that Kingdra is easily stopped by Steel Types, namely Jirachi and Ferrothorn. These common Pokemon are able to stop Kingdra in its tracks.
Swift Swim users are not really the most reliable way to answer Rain. You should definitely have a stronger answer prepared just in case your Swift Swimmer is KO'd early.
Saying that Kingdra or any Water-type Rain sweeper is stopped by Steel-types is wrong at best and misdirecting at worst.
252SpAtk Life Orb Kingdra (+SAtk) Hydro Pump in Rain vs 252HP/224SpDef Leftovers Jirachi (+SpDef): 61% - 72% (249 - 294 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Ferrothorn stops Rain sweepers (especially the Swift Swimmers) because he resists their STABs and typically is only vulnerable to their coverage. Ludicolo and Kabutops can get around him with coverage, but their attacks are risky.
I have been seeing an interesting amount of scizors on rain teams as of late, honestly its a pretty solid strategy, pursuit scizor can really fuck with rain's usual counters like celebi and Blissey. It can also trap and kill off weakened Jirachi's and such making Tornadus-T's job much easier. In return scizor loses its fire weakness and usually rain teams are well supported by rapid spinning by tentacruel or starmie.
Did some RMT popularize this kinda of team because just a few months ago I would never see scizor on a rain team, or did it just come up naturally in the metagame?
Lately I've been seeing lots of scarf rachis on rain teams
And they are complete setup bait most of the time due to how pitifully weak they are and the amount of pokes that have protect on standard rain
I've also noticed how weak and completely managable life orb tornadus is
Specs is DEFINITELY more threatening
I've been using this little beaut:
Zapdos @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd
- Hidden Power [Ice]
And it is absolutely wonderful against most of the current meta. Walls things cold and can maintain momentum while denting and paralysing with thunder.
Also, now is a great time to use...
Meloetta @ Expert Belt
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 56 Atk / 252 SAtk / 200 Spd
- Relic Song
- Close Combat
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Meloetta doesn't do anything particularly special in the current meta, but it thrives in rain, justifying its use.
It's fantastic special defense allows it to tank at least one boosted hpump/hurricane/etc and ko back
Serene grace thunder is great (think jirachi, but stronger)
Being able to switch forms to outspeed and ko tornadus is also very nice
Meloetta, if anything, is a complete surprise as the opponent likely hasn't a clue what to do when she goes out, making for some surprise sweeps/kos