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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    I have been checking some RMTs that had at least 6 luvdiscs and i haven't seen any rain team with scizor. However, i think that the use of scizor in rain is pretty interesting.

    When you try to sweep with your keldeo you ahve to remove certain defensive threats first like Celebi, Latios, Latias, Jellycent, Blissey, Tentacruel, Toxicroak, etc. My main weather is Sand and Banded T-tar does a REALLY NICE JOB removing this counters. However, i don't think that using Unnerve banded T-tar is viable in a rain team, so banded Scizor is a good option doing the pursuit job. His 130 base att and technician can be compared with the powerful stab pursuit of banded tar. Of course, since Genesect is gone Scizor can work again. I made some calcs (i love doing calcs) to demostrate the power of pursuit.

    252 Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252 HP/0 Def Celebi: 71.29% - 84.16%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252 HP/0 Def Latias: 86.26% - 101.65%
    12.5% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252 HP/224 Def Jellicent (+Def) : 65.84% - 77.72%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk) Pursuit vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 114.57% - 135.1%
    Guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252 HP/252 Def Blissey (+Def) : 36.41% - 43%
    3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
  2. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    252/252+ Blissey isn't standard anymore, the sets on-site use 4/252/252
  3. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    While on site that may be true, you will find that most people still use the old spread.

    Not like it matters though:

    43.55 - 51.38%

    Blissey still avoids a 2HKO and heals up on whatever crappy "special attacker" they have.
  4. Gehenna

    Gehenna

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    I think SD Toxicroak is really underrated. It makes fighting opposing rain teams so much easier, and will always 0HKO standard Tornadus-t at +2 after rocks. Tentacruel is setup fodder and Rotom-w won't enjoy a Drain Punch. Surprised I see it on so few rain teams.

    Show Hide
    252Atk Life Orb +2 Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 4HP/0Def Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 86% - 102% (260 - 306 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 13% chance to OHKO.
  5. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    Swift swimmers are fucking amazing, but the only reason they aren't that good is because the only way you're going to be sure they'll work is if you run Rain, but sadly, you can't! Rain Dance is shit because all the swift swimmers need their coverage moves, and it's usually stupid to run rain dance teams in this meta anyway.

    Swift swimmers do demolish rain however. Look at Kabutops - LO Waterfall kills Tornadus, Waterfall + Low Kick kills ferrothorn, Stone Edge 2HKOes some Tentacruel... it basically 2HKOes the meta (including Keldeo, which falls to LO Waterfall iirc!)

    They're not even that bad out of rain - Kabutops kills Mamoswine with Aqua Jet and checks Heatran pretty well, for example, but in the end they're going to be subpar out of rain, and that can hurt, especially against Deo-D + 5 sweeper teams where you need all the Pokemon you can get.
  6. Gehenna

    Gehenna

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    Actually I've run Rain Dance Bronzong and it's not that bad lol. And seriously the fact that Drizzle is so common make Rain Dance teams way more threatening. You should see people reactions when they bring a Rain Team and I'm packing shit like Kingdra, Kabutops, etc. I guarantee you they'll avoid sending in Politoed at all costs.
  7. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Certified Lumberjack
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    Ok, so I have been seeing a lot of people bash Jolteon on the Suspect Test thread and regularly on the usage stats threads. This just doesn't sit right with me. maybe it's because I have been a huge Jolteon fan since I first played Red. Perhaps it's because I used to rock him on PO in the days when he was UU. Or it could be that Game Freak gave him the perfect balance between cute little bunny/cat and awesome electric-spike fox. Whatever the reason is, I know for a fact that I'm hugely biased towards loving that little guy, and I don't think it's fair to call him a mediocre Pokémon. I decided to look at the potential of Jolteon in greater depth, though I have little experience using him in OU. In order to show you what I've found, I'm going to compare him to one of the premiere threats in the OU metagame: Tornadus-T.



    TORNADUS-T

    1. Base 120 STAB Hurricane with 30% chance to confuse.

    2. Base 110 Special Attack.

    3. Base 121 Speed + U-Turn to escape counters.

    4. Regenerator, which allows for 33% health to be regained upon switching.

    JOLTEON

    1. Base 120 Stab Thunder with 30% chance to paralyze.

    2. Base 110 Special Attack.

    3. Base 130 Speed + Volt Switch to escape counters (sans ground types).

    4. Volt Absorb, which allows for 25% health to be regained upon taking an electric hit (obviously not as good, but it's something).

    So they actually have some pretty key qualities in common. SOme of the things that make Tornadus-T so powerful are also things that Jolteon has, not to mention he even has a better speed tier, though once you reach 121, there's not too much of a point in going higher.

    There are, however, some things that make Tornadus-T better (obviously, I'm not saying that Jolteon is anywhere near as good as Tornadus-T, just that they're similar).

    Negatives

    1. Jolteon is affected by spikes.

    2. Jolteon can't spam Volt Switch because of ground types.

    3. Specs sets are good, but are risky because of ground types being immune to electric.

    4. Volt Absorb is ok, but not nearly as helpful as Regenerator (though it does give him an immunity).

    5. There are far more resistances to electric in OU than flying.

    6. Jolteon doesn't have as good of a movepool/coverage.

    7. Jolteon has much less bulk.

    There are a few things Jolteon has over Tornadus though!

    Positives

    1. Jolteon is not weak to Stealth Rock.

    2. Jolteon gets STAB on Volt Switch, making it more powerful than U-Turn.

    3. Paralysis is, in my opinion, better than confusion due to the speed drop.

    Naturally, as previously stated, Jolteon is nowhere near as good as Tornadus-T. However, I think it's unfair to call Jolteon mediocre, when it does have so much in common with the most threatening Pokémon in OU. Not only that, but a shocking number of rain teams have a huge weakness to electric types. Many have Politoed, Tornadus, Keldeo, Tentacruel, Gyarados, etc. Also, with hazards, it can actually kill Dugtrio, which I think is pretty funny, though only terrible players actually try to trap Jolteon with Dugtrio (its happened to my Jolteon before -_-).

    So no, I'm not trying to say Jolteon is a top-tier threat or anything like that. Maybe it's outclassed by Thundurus-T, I don't know. I'm just saying that it has a lot of really great qualities that make it a strong Pokémon in this rain-infested metagame, and that people should give it more of a chance than they do currently.



    EDIT: Look what I just found! Timid Jolteon outspeeds +1 Adamant Dragonite and Gyarados and can KO both with HP Ice and Thunder/Volt Switch respectively while holding only an Expert Belt. This assumes Multiscale has been broken, though.

    252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 326-389 (100.92 - 120.43%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 840-994 (253.77 - 300.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  8. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    @Shokwav
    Totally backin' you up man.
  9. Gehenna

    Gehenna

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    Nah I wouldn't say it's outclassed by Thundurus-t. It lacks a SR weakness and has much better base Speed (though 145 Sp. Atk is ridiculous). Also, when Tornadus-t gets banned you can afford to run a Modest nature, couple that with it's good Sp. Atk and you have a pretty fearsome sweeper in the rain (it always 2HKOs Rotom-w, for example).

    Thanks haha ^_^, though I've been struggling to find some effective offensive partners for him.
  10. thecrowing2k8

    thecrowing2k8

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    Hi guys!

    I rarely post but I was wondering what you guys think of Final Gambit Victini in the meta. I know it's very gimmicky, but taking out a key member of an opponents team and making it a 5v5 situation can crumble a wide variety of teams. Most likely, the opponent won't get their hazards up. For more dynamic teams (baton pass, dual screens, opposing weather starters, etc...) it may just win you the battle.
  11. 725roy

    725roy

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    Like you said, FG Vicitini is REALLY gimmicky, that being said, it's not totally terrible. Sure you're wasting a perfectly decet Vicitiin, but yes, a 5v5 battle is different than a 6v6 battle. Honestly though, I personally would run the LO and Scarf Sets, seeing as they give a lot more coverage and are able to hit much harder over a longer period of time. Longevity. It's a beautiful thing.
  12. nmitchell890

    nmitchell890

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    Is it just me or is sand stall really anti-meta at the moment? Seriously I tested a team consisting of Sableye / Hippowdon / Skarmory / Blissey / Sandslash / Latias and every time I come up against a rain/sun team I end up winning without difficulty. Its solid against most other things too. I think I'm onto something here.
  13. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

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    Sand Stall is definitely a solid choice for the current metagame, and I personally have tried it out a few times as well. In the SPL, a common team has been Tyranitar / Latias or Celebi / Forretress / Rotom-W / Ground-type / Heatran. I wouldn't classify it as pure stall, but it definitely is leaning toward the stall-ish kind of things, and it is definitely a good team atm. Your team struggles with Tornadus-T, Rotom-W + Pursuit Trapper, etc. but I would definitely keep working on your idea!
  14. oSeasons

    oSeasons
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    another advantage that tornadus-t has over jolteon is that it has access to superpower which 1HKOs tyranitar
  15. Silent Storm

    Silent Storm

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    Tornadus-Therian is banned now. Smogon just shot themselves in the foot. :(

    I don't know how much the rest of you know about competitive Pokémon culture (I'm an expert!), but honour and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like in Yu-Gi-Oh, where you can become successful by banning shit like Exodia, The Forbidden One. If you ban broken threats in Pokémon, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.

    What this means is the competitive Pokémon community, after hearing about this, is not going to want to use Smogon tiers on their sites, nor will they continue to use their Smogon accounts. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Smogon has alienated an entire competitive Pokémon market with this move.

    Smogon, publicly apologise and unban Tornadus-Therian or you can kiss your standing in the prestigious, honourable Pokémon community goodbye! :(((((

    Also one more thing to add (open)
    Yeah right lmao, kudos to the suspect voters for banning Torn-T. I am so glad this it is gone :’). Fuck Tornadus-Therian.

    I personally think Rain won’t be that much of a deal now that this is gone. Will still be threatening, and will probably remain the best weather to run for the remainder of BW2, but I don't think it will be as dominating as it was at the start of BW2. Thundurus-Therian I see rising in usage along with Dragonite in rain, but the most important thing is that rain just got a whole lot more manageable with this ban, and I love it.

    Glad Keldeo is here to stay also.
  16. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    ^Halfway through reading that, I was going "Are you shitting me?" And then I went "Wait, he's got a hidden post attached. Laughs were had. Tornadus-T is manageable, certainly. But he's fucking annoying and centralizing. I'm glad he's gone as well.
  17. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    yeah, have fun switching into SpecsToed with 50% health.
  18. Curtains

    Curtains

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    Ok. now that tornadus-t is banned what next rain dedicated mon will be the next suspect.....
  19. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    obviously keldeo!

    to be honest the metagame wont be reasonable until we ban rain imo: if we look at stuff like keldeo, it does like 35% to latias with scarf hydro pump - this means that latias is forced to use recover (or it won't be able to switch back in another time with sr up), but if latias uses recover then that's a free switch in for scizor and stuff. this type of power that lets you beat resists with 80 / 130 defenses is too strong for a healthy metagame imo.
  20. cocoon

    cocoon

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    Thunderus-t... TBH, I'm surprised it wasn't suspected in place of keldeo. Rain is probably more manageable though. We'll see. If suspect tests continue I don't know what smogon will try to unban. If tornadus-t is banned I don't think there's much hope for anything else. Thunerud-t, deoxys-d, landerus-i, and terrakion are possible suspects, but that's all I can think of.
  21. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    So, Tornadus-T has been banned!!!

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Sadly, Keldeo wasn't banned, but I hope that it is like people said, unbroken. However, this thing is a monster against offensive teams.

    The good of Tornadus-T being banned is that no longer we are forced to use its counters/checks on every team. Now, my Heatran/Keldeo/Celebi sandstorm team is more viable! (Tornadus-T was capable of breaking this core). Oh, although this will probably mean that Tornadus (the incarnate) will rise on usage, Tornadus is MUCH more manageable than its green chicken form despite being stronger.
  22. Goodra

    Goodra

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    Glad I didn't make a new Rain team. Sure a lot of people are pissed who just made a recent drizzle team have to replace Tornadus-T now. I'm kinda mixed on him going Uber. I was gonna make a team based around him soon so I am sad I can't now. At the same time I understand how much he overly centralized the meta.
  23. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    TornT's absence would be great!.... if PO would implement smogon tiers -______-
  24. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    I thought PO had Smogon tiers.

    And is PS! still down? My friend has some thing set up on his laptop that launches Pokémon Showdown! directly, but when I try to open it in Chrome on my computer it's still shot.
  25. MJB

    MJB Sup Peeps
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    use http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/lobby

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