BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[typon77]

Really loving the people who assume that everyone hates weather.

Or that the "majority" of Smogon hates Rain

Get me a poll where you can prove that popular opinion would have rather banned weather otherwise take your head out of your ass and realize that you speak only for yourself.


I personally would not have wanted Rain banned because that would have inevitably lead to a cascade of bans including Sun of things that are nowhere near broken of their own merit, including potentially Terakion, Volcarona, Landorus, Latios, perhaps even Reuniclus if early suspect tests are anything to go by.

This, essentially.

I personally am not a fan of playing against rain, as its boring and easier win weather wars with. But Rain is keeping the metagame in balance. Can you imagine how vicious CB Victini or LO Darmanitan would be if the only way to take away their sun support was to switch in Tyranitar or lolAbomasnow. Tyranitar may resist V-Create/Flare Blitz/Insert Fire Move here, but CB V-Create hits it hard enough even without sun. In combination with Chlorophyll mons, Sun teams could become an unstoppable offensive force if rain were to get banned. We don't need to start a chain of bans this late in BW. Rain, while annoying, is still manageable, and I think we can deal with this for a few more months until the XY metagame comes into play.

That being said, I would definitely like to see what the metagame turned into without rain. I'm almost certain that sun would be broken, but I would like to see what else would emerge as broken.

 

[haunter]

This thread is not about bitching against our tiering policies. Posts that derail from the topic will be deleted and infracted from now on.

 

[thecrowing2k8]

I've noticed that Volturning has become quite favorable ever since the banning of tornadus and the slowing down of the metagame. I have been using Scarfed Landorus-T as a bulky offensive pivot and it wears down teams very quickly.

On that note, I feel Landorus-T is very underrated in this meta, and I'm surprised more teams aren't using him. He has one of the strongest non-stabbed U-turns in the game, and intimidate can slow down potential physical threats.

 

[mcdanger]

I've noticed that Volturning has become quite favorable ever since the banning of tornadus and the slowing down of the metagame. I have been using Scarfed Landorus-T as a bulky offensive pivot and it wears down teams very quickly.

On that note, I feel Landorus-T is very underrated in this meta, and I'm surprised more teams aren't using him. He has one of the strongest non-stabbed U-turns in the game, and intimidate can slow down potential physical threats.

I agree, I`ve seen some more sand teams since the ban, as well as an increase in use of celebi. I do have to say, special defensive celebi is pretty good right now, as it walls some major threats like keldeo, landorus i that lacks u turn, and thunderus therian as well as a majority of rain teams.

I`m suprised that Thunderus therian is filling the spot of tornadus therian, I expected a resurgence in tornadus i to continue the keldeo-tornadus core, tho the lack of regenerator hits it hard, and the decrease in speed.

 

[Huntofthelion]

I've noticed that Volturning has become quite favorable ever since the banning of tornadus and the slowing down of the metagame. I have been using Scarfed Landorus-T as a bulky offensive pivot and it wears down teams very quickly.

On that note, I feel Landorus-T is very underrated in this meta, and I'm surprised more teams aren't using him. He has one of the strongest non-stabbed U-turns in the game, and intimidate can slow down potential physical threats.

I really like Landorus-T in this metagame, I've been using the double dance set and he's a really nice mix of strength and bulk. It's easy to get a free turn with him and he's pretty difficult to switch into until they know your set since he can U-turn or just hit most things really hard. Intimidate might not be as offensively great as sheer force but it gives him a lot of chances to switch in and gives your team a nice check to most physical sweepers. He's a little terrible against rain because of his typing but if he gets a chance to set up I find most rain teams are a little weak to him. He's definitely one of the more underrated pokemon in the current metagame, especially given how well he does against a lot of physical threats.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I agree. Landorus-T also work well as an pivot that setups Stealth Rock. I've used it on a semi-stall team and it is effective because it works like an Hippowdon that can hit harder, is immune to Toxic Spikes, and can mantain momentum, and defeat troublesome things like Dragons. Landorus-T is really underrated, but I don't think that it should be compared to its genie form. Landorus-T is more like a mix of Gliscor and Gyarados in one Pokémon. The only thing that hurts is the lack of reliable recovery. This is easy to mitigate with a Wish passer like Jirachi, however. Unlike Hippowdon, it does not become setup bait thanks to its ability to U-Turn, and an insane attack that lets it hit hard even without setup. So, it is more appropriate for offensive teams.

 

[LonelyNess]

I think we could all use a good laugh every once and a while, don't you?

 

[Boondocker]

That was hilarious, especially since ive seen the original version of that comic on facebook recently. I do think we as a community should seriously testing drizzle. I dont really care either way though, im just excited for X and Y. As for double dance Landerous-T, I find that too many things are immune to Earthquake for it to be too effective...and you cant hit all of them with Stone Edge. Regular Tornadus is extremely effective. Priority Tailwind can easy setup/pervent sweeps.

 

[shrang]

I think we could all use a good laugh every once and a while, don't you?

Wow I loved that.

Anyway, am I the only one who enjoys the fact that we have weather wars everywhere in OU? Maybe this is because I started getting the hang of playing Pokemon from Ubers where Kyogre/Groudon were/are everywhere, but I've had a lot of fun playing BW1/2 OU. It's what really defines this generation from the last, and I think we need that, even though I, like many others, prefer playing DPP to BW. I've heard from people saying how it cuts down on diversity but I really think it brought more out of Pokemon that would have otherwise been relatively mediocre (pretty much every Chlorophyll sweeper, Tornadus-I, Stoutland, lol Toxicroak, and back in BW1, Virizion). This is not to mention that if this metagame wasn't weather-fest, it would probably end up being Dragon-fest.

We need to learn to celebrate the metagame we've created as well, not just bitch about it all the time.

 

[Schpoonman]

I've heard from people saying how it cuts down on diversity but I really think it brought more out of Pokemon that would have otherwise been relatively mediocre (pretty much every Chlorophyll sweeper, Tornadus-I, Stoutland, lol Toxicroak, and back in BW1, Virizion).

Oh my god I can't believe that it took me this long to realize, but I finally did.

I know why this argument is bunk (not to insult anyone using it, but it's very much a half-truth): These Pokémon are brought up from "relatively mediocre" at the cost of other, more numerous Pokémon that are much more viable in a weatherless environment. For every Tornadus-I that is made viable in auto-weather, we have at least a Victini and a Darmanitan that is neutered. Can you really tell me that Bronzong wouldn't be a welcome sight in a tier where Dragons would reign supreme?

"But wait, Lord of Bays, Dragons are already dominant!"

Not so. Weather is dominant, and Bronzong crumbles under rain- and sun-boosted attacks even more quickly than Jirachi, that hallowed of hallowed walls.

TL;DR Auto-weather makes more Pokémon non-viable than it makes Pokémon viable, and this is completely ignoring how so many of these "viable" Pokémon aren't even used because of the select few who are made so fucking powerful by it that there's no point in using anything else. "Diversity" arguments are flawed.

 

[haunter]

@Shrang: I could not agree more with you.

Also, nice one LonelyNess.

 

[ZandgaiaX]

Whilst I have some nostalgic feels to Gen 4, and am not a great fan of Gen 5, I wouldn't say that Drizzle should be banned, but that Drizzle is considered so good because basically nobody goes for the inovation here.

The problem with this Gen's metagame is that we are spoiled with good, strong and fast pokémon that can be easily glued together into a team. Remember Scizor last gen? It's like that, except that half of OU are Scizors.

Though then again, if Salamence got banned for unpredictability in terms of what set it used, and the sheer power it possesed during gen 4. Drizzle couldn't possibly we banned as in the end, it's predictable. Also, Kingdra, Gastrodon and Iunno Celebi(?) exists. And no, Jirachi is NOT a rain counter, please for the love of god stop using Jirachi as a Sp. Def. Wall, it isn't one >: (

Btw, one last thing: the two pokémon that got the biggest boost out of Drizzle are Ferrothorn, becoming pretty much the 'glue'-wall due to the drizzle nerfing fire so bad, and suprisingly Politoed: I mean look at the stats of it compared to last gen. Pure Drizzle right there.

Edit: one last thiing, personally it's the team preview that makes me really sad. There's no more lead-metagame: my favorite part of the metagame back in Gen 4, with entire pokémon being OU just beause of their cheer ability to be used as a lead.

 

[BKC]

Just because it brings more "diversity" to the game [flawed argument, as already pointed out by Lord of Bays] doesn't mean we can keep it even though the good is far outweighed by the bad [it's not just ridiculous team matchups caused by rain and sun that make the metagame terrible, it's also broken mons such as Deoxys-D and Landorus-I].

EDIT:

just saw alexwolf's post...

[14:37] <%penguinx> what is wrong
[14:37] <%penguinx> with banning drizzle now
[14:37] <%penguinx> xy is in like october
[14:37] <%penguinx> and we wont take it up officially right away
[14:38] <%penguinx> people will still be actively playing bw this time next year
[14:38] <%penguinx> and its going to be in smogon tour
[14:38] <%penguinx> so what the fuck
[14:38] <%penguinx> is wrong
[14:38] <%penguinx> with banning drizzle
[14:38] <&AFKC> theres also the fact that the mentality of
[14:38] <&AFKC> "new gen is around the corner, lets just leave this one to rot"
[14:38] <&AFKC> is stupid
[14:38] <&AFKC> bw had already been announced for quite some time before salamence was banned in dpp
[14:38] <&AFKC> we didnt let that stop us

[14:44] <%penguinx> okay bkc
[14:45] <%penguinx> you rarely run rain in bw2
[14:45] <%penguinx> so when you play vs sun and stoutland and dragons
[14:45] <&AFKC> just about never, in fact
[14:45] <%penguinx> which means you effectively playing in a drizzle-less meta
[14:45] <%penguinx> do you feel at
[14:45] <%penguinx> an overwhelming team disadvantage
[14:45] <&AFKC> fuck no
[14:45] <%penguinx> okay
[14:45] <%penguinx> so why
[14:45] <%penguinx> would banning drizzle make any of those broken

 

[peng]

This, essentially.

I personally am not a fan of playing against rain, as its boring and easier win weather wars with. But Rain is keeping the metagame in balance. Can you imagine how vicious CB Victini or LO Darmanitan would be if the only way to take away their sun support was to switch in Tyranitar or lolAbomasnow. Tyranitar may resist V-Create/Flare Blitz/Insert Fire Move here, but CB V-Create hits it hard enough even without sun. In combination with Chlorophyll mons, Sun teams could become an unstoppable offensive force if rain were to get banned. We don't need to start a chain of bans this late in BW. Rain, while annoying, is still manageable, and I think we can deal with this for a few more months until the XY metagame comes into play.

That being said, I would definitely like to see what the metagame turned into without rain. I'm almost certain that sun would be broken, but I would like to see what else would emerge as broken.

I don't see why banning rain would cause a "chain of bans". Its not like Rain is the only thing that is keeping Sun in check at the moment. I've never used rain myself since mid-BW1, and I've pretty much exclusively been a sand balance player. I've never had any overwhelming issues with opposing Sun, Dragons, Stoutland or any of the other Pokemon people claim will be broken with rain banned and in those sand vs sun / dragons / opposing sand match-ups, I've been effectively playing a Drizzle-less metagame already.

In fact, I think Sun will end up being more handleable for a lot of teams than it is now. Sun is much easier to face when you can actually properly prepare for it, and this isn't really the case at the moment. The difficulty at the moment is building teams that can handle Rain (by having multiple Pokemon that can tank Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps or can set-up on common rain mons) and can also hold their own against sun on top of that. So simply, ban Rain and you aren't jumping through hoops to try and beat it, and you have more room and resources on your team to direct towards beating sun.

Not to mention, keeping Rain in OU just because it keeps other playstyles in check (even if I don't feel thats true) is a poor argument. Who are we to say a drizzle metagame is better than a post-drizzle metagame? The whole principle of banning is based on whether or not the suspect is broken or not, not whether we like the look of the next metagame.

 

[alexwolf]

BKC what i said in my last post was the reason that i believe the council won't allow Drizzle to be suspected, not the reason that i don't want Drizzle banned. It is a no-brainer that if you remove such a huge aspect of the meta as Drizzle, then the whole meta is going to change drastically. And a lot of effort and time are going to be needed to stabilize the meta again (time which we obviously don't have). So why would the council bother going through all this trouble for a meta that will only last a few months at best, and not save their energy for the new meta that is right in front of them? Not to mention that after all those bans, people should have at least a few months to play the metagame that they built, instead of throwing everything to waste for a meta that won't even last for three months.

I don't want Drizzle banned because i enjoy the weather wars, the variety of Pokemon that i see, and the metagame in general.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I agree, I`ve seen some more sand teams since the ban, as well as an increase in use of celebi. I do have to say, special defensive celebi is pretty good right now, as it walls some major threats like keldeo, landorus i that lacks u turn, and thunderus therian as well as a majority of rain teams.

I`m suprised that Thunderus therian is filling the spot of tornadus therian, I expected a resurgence in tornadus i to continue the keldeo-tornadus core, tho the lack of regenerator hits it hard, and the decrease in speed.

Tornadus is meant to play as a lead. My standard set is

Naive
0/4/0/252/0/252
299-267-176-349-176-353
Life Orb

Taunt-messing up Ferro, and trick room sweeprs
HEatwave-OHKOS even sp.defensive ferro
Superpower-gets the hit on Heatran
Hurricane-great pwer, kills Keldeo

 

[BKC]

Uh, the meta won't last "a few months at best". It's still going to be in smogon tour and spl, and like I edited into my post, are we seriously going to just let a metagame rot because there will be a new one in a few months?

The weather wars cause the stupid team matchups that are won literally by what each player brings etc etc weather has its own variety but it makes so many mons unviable that weatherless has arguably more etc etc we're never gonna agree on this

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

Uh, the meta won't last "a few months at best". It's still going to be in smogon tour and spl, and like I edited into my post, are we seriously going to just let a metagame rot because there will be a new one in a few months?

The weather wars cause the stupid team matchups that are won literally by what each player brings etc etc weather has its own variety but it makes so many mons unviable that weatherless has arguably more etc etc we're never gonna agree on this

Its not really "rotting" the meta is hardly ideal but you can't deny that over 50% of people are satisfied with it to the extent that they are not interested in changing something as important as the weather. I won't deny that I personally still enjoy the meta. It really is too late to make changes now, besides its not really Smogon's problem, its Game Freaks, so heres to hoping the next meta is more competitively stable!

Thats not to say I don't agree with you, I do to an extent, I definitely believe the meta would be better if we simply started by banning politoed and then proceeding from there however can we really say anyone anticipated what would happen after the Drizzle + SS ban? My personal prediction is that if we had simply banned politoed from the start it would have followed that Venusaur, Blaziken and Excadrill would have been the only (otherwise) OU pokemon to follow suit but hindsight is 20/20 and at the time I thought drizzle+ss being removed was enough. Thanks to their access to ice beam and great neutral coverage, rain boosted STAB hydro pumps and scalds and the like are much more difficult to check than fire blasts in sun. It's interesting though that since the politoed + kingdra nerf the issue has not been with all the hydro pumpers because every team has a built in 2+ water resists/immunities but rather it became about thunder and hurricane (Thundurus-I and Tornadus-T respectively), however in Thundurus' case it was more then just the rain boosts.

In short the real problem when all things are said and done is this:

120 power 100% accurate scald with a 30% burn in rain
120 power 100% accurate thunder with a 30% paralyse in rain
120 power 100% accurate hurricane with a 30% confuse in rain
180 power 80% accurate Hydro pump resisted by a grand total of 3 types.

(ninetales can safely switch into none of these moves, barring scald/thunder's from weaker pokemon)

VS.

120 power 100% accurate, useless to hit weather starters solarbeam with no side effect (GF just add a -2 accuracy drop plz...)
120 power 100% accurate lava plume with a distribution worse than hurricane
180 power fire blast which is arguably more useful than hydro pump for SE coverage.

(politoed can switch into everything above)

Just the fact that banning rain would have reduced the amount of steels in OU is a welcome thing to me. Call me biased but I detest seeing Jirachi everywhere, LOL. (Ferro is cool though)

 

[Taylor]

120 power 100% accurate scald with a 30% burn in rain
120 power 100% accurate thunder with a 30% paralyse in rain
120 power 100% accurate hurricane with a 30% confuse in rain
180 power 80% accurate Hydro pump resisted by a grand total of 3 types.

What's scary about these statistics is STAB and rain-boosted attacks, which results the following: Politoed's Scald hits a neutral foe essentially for super effective damage. If a Pokemon resists your STAB Hydro Pump in rain, you still deliver 120 BP's worth of damage, which just goes to show how powerful rain has been in BW. Fortunately the metagame has evolved multiple times throughout the last couple or so of generations that we see new Pokemon introduced to make the game more diverse.

Sand has been one of the staple strats for three generations straight, and was provided with a handful of goodies in BW (Terrakion/Landorus). DragMag, as referred to, is a very formidable strategy to use when built properly (you don't even have to use Magneton/zone, by the way). Even sun has proved it can, if used and structered efficiently enough to deal with weathers by including Dugtrio, hold its own against the best of teams.

A Pokemon like Genesect shattered teams apart on its own. It took one place in a players' team, which meant you had five other members to really take advantage of its biggest assets and strong points. Politoed cannot do the same in terms of slaughtering a team single-handidly, and when dealing with a team based around rain, it has one route of action and that is to abuse its weather, whilst maintaining it.

You can say well, add Terrakion and Latias to deal with sand and sun respectively but you can do the exact same with the other weathers. For example, Sand can run Keldeo.

It may have not been the easiest generation to adapt to competitive battling and I'm sure the council will do its best come Gen 6 to produce a well-rounded metagame for us all to enjoy but Pokemon itself is always evolving and you can't expect, with each generation that is released, for the metagame to get progressively weaker; more threats equals more potential strategies worth checking.

 

[BKC]

It is not "too late" to make changes to the current metagame, as Gen VI will be released in nearly ten months; we made the last tiering change of Gen IV about a month and a half before BW was released. Not to mention that Gen V will still have a strong influence in major tournaments, and just because it will [relatively] soon be a past generation doesn't mean we just give up on it now.

 

[mcdanger]

I dont mind drizze, as it provides more diversity in the metagame. With tornadus therian gone, rain lost a major abuser, and while keldeo is still a common rain sweeper, celebi walls it now without fear of tornadus therian. Same with thunderus therian. As the calcs taylor posted show, rain is one of, if not the most powerful weather. Even if keldeo was banned, I feel sand would take a hit as keldeo is a strong sand sweeper like landorus i.

 

[BKC]

Discussing Kyurem-B in #suspect

[11:57] <+BKC> ppl should use
[11:57] <+BKC> sub fbolt ibeam epower
[11:57] <+BKC> kyub
[11:57] <+BKC> that thing is so scary for sand teams
[11:57] <%SuperMarioBro> if only its physical movepool wasn't so terrible
[11:58] <+BKC> doesnt matter
[11:58] <+BKC> it has all it needs
[11:58] <+BKC> w/ that set
[11:58] <%SuperMarioBro> kyurem-B is a little hard to fit on teams because of its bad typing
[11:59] <%SuperMarioBro> it checks specs politoed i guess
[11:59] <%SuperMarioBro> with its bulk
[11:59] <+BKC> yea it cant switch in on much
[11:59] <+BKC> but once it gets in
[11:59] <+BKC> its a terror

Use this thing more.

 

[Shurtugal]

I'm agreeing with BKC. I made this hail team with that same Cube set and I was surprised. The thing can easily set up substitutes, and its got amazing coverage. Not to mention that Wash is flattened by EP and Dragonite's multiscale is ignored, small things like this are hugely noticeable when you use it!

 

[shrang]

Personally, I think Kyurem-B should run a physical Dragon STAB over Fusion Bolt, since Ice Beam and Earth Power 2HKO most Steel-types anyway. Your bulky Waters are 2HKOed by Outrage as well, while Ice Beam 2HKOes Gyarados.

 

[Shurtugal]

It hits things like Politoed though, and when your using hail this is a huge plus. Hitting bulky waters is also good since earth power is really pushing it to beat them. Fusion Bolt is better for Gatr / Azu / Politoed / Keldeo (behind a sub) / etc. A Dragon STAB should be slashed because it has merits, it really depends on what you want to hit imo.