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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. HardCore

    HardCore

    Joined:
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    [​IMG]
    HardCore's Unique Heatran Set!!!
    Show Hide
    Heatran (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Magma Storm
    - Substitute
    - Protect / Will o Wisp/ Hidden Power Fire
    - Bulldoze

    So after seeing a Magma Storm Heatran with

    - Magma Storm
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Earth Power/ Protect/ Roar

    I was thinking about my team with a set up Rachi. It needed something to stop Volcarona in its tracks as well as a Pokémon for breaking down other bulky mons that lack recovery. So I figured why not make a Magma Storm Heatran of my own. Simply having Roar wouldn't be good enough because I'd be walled by other Heatran, so I thought Earth Power, but finally came to the never used Bulldoze! It's really fun perfect for the meta, and can even get you out of Dugtrio Traps in a pinch. It is a great bulky Pokemon that gets me one step closer to a SubCM Rachi sweep, because almost anything that can take Heatran has moves that break Rachi's subs. Spamming protect sub on those mons you can't take but want to kill works really well since they can't switch.


    Don't knock this awesome set until you try it!!!
  2. BlackLight

    BlackLight

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
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    709
    My only problem with this is that it doesn't pack any real way to damage anyone beyond Magma Storm. Bulldoze is really just a utility move, which means that to use this to your full potential, you have to run some kind of residual damage with it, ie. Sandstorm, hail, or Toxic Spikes. I'm not exactly certain on how you would use it, either. It sorta seems like an awkward set, imo, though my opinion would certainly change if you could get me some logs or replays. (Seriously, I'd love to take a look at this thing, I'm genuinely curious.)
    That being said, props on the creativity, especially if it works like you say it does. Bulldoze if a criminally underused move on quite a few Pokemon. I personally love tossing it on Mamoswine, which makes it ridiculously hard to switch into, as well as Ferrothorn, to stop setup and Magnezone, and on Garchomp, because its Garchomp and screwing over faster pokes on the switch is hilarious.
  3. HardCore

    HardCore

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
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    256
    I will try to Tuesday or Wednesday when I don't have school. I can see how this sets viability needs to be heavily corroborated. Bulldoze is definitely a utility move that does a small amount of damage, but in the end pays off. I've been using this team on PO, because it's got a faster pace than PS and I was just testing stuff, but the team is ok so I will get some Showdown replays and maybe even put this on my YT.
    __
    3/18/13
    Here you go! http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou12303134 I'm Robor (test alt). I'm currently testing will o wisp instead of protect and so far I can definitely see my team having no trouble with sun teams, which includes the amazing Volcarona. My team definitely doesn't have any hazards to abuse either, but Heatran really shined in that battle for sake of example.
  4. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star

    Joined:
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    The Metagame honestly seems great right now to me. I have seen Rain Offense/Stall, Sand Offense/Stall and weather-less offense all doing very well. With a decent amount of variance in the versions of each. Sun and weatherless stall (or semi-stall) do not seem to be doing very well based on the ladder.
  5. moonbase

    moonbase

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    I agree with all your points up to "Sun and weatherless stall (or semi-stall) do not seem to be doing very well based on the ladder." Sun has the most powerful abusers of its weather, and the saying goes that if you win the weather war with sun, you essentially win the game (that statement can also be used against sun, because if you lose the weather war, you are utterly fucked) that is why you see some of the highest players on the ladder using sun because it has the most untapped power out of every weather. Weather less stall is completely viable as well, if you have a well built team and you are not a crap battler. That goes for every single playing style, but the reason why you probably think that those two styles of playing are not viable are because the people you see on the ladder using those things often times do not know what they are doing.
  6. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    Feb 22, 2012
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    I agree this is about as balanced as I ever expected the meta to be, Sun has been pretty untouched by external nerfs, so we can genuinely ask what kind of shift could make it more present in the meta.
  7. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    Personally I think offensive sun is deadly. Sunny day on Ninetales is extremely good, allowing it to troll Politoed well. It is underrated. I agree with the fact that the meta is as balanced as it can be, but I disagree regarding weatherless stall being viable. The thing is that weather is vital to be controlled, otherwise things like offensive sun or rain and really hurt. Imo it can be used, but isn't as good as other types of stall
  8. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    nah sand offense is much more dangerous than sun/rain offense.

    sand sweepers tend to have better coverage than rain/sun sweepers (terrakion's rock/fighting)

    cb/scarftar is the greatest teammate. it alone can ohko sand sweepers common counters with pursuit (landorus and ttar rape all).

    excadrill is faster in the sand than kingdra in the rain and venusaur in the sun.
  9. Unoriginal Name

    Unoriginal Name

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    Erm, Excadrill? He's Uber... And Kingda isn't allowed with Drizzle regardless, so it's only Venu, who is the swing grace of Sun offensive, and what makes it so awesome.

    Although I do agree with you on Sand being great offensively, but I prefer Sun. I dunno, just really personal preference. Rain wins stall hands-down with Jellicent and Tentacruel and whatnot, but is not as good offensively IMO. Not to say it isn't good, of course, with access to Keldeo and the like.

    Venusaur and Dugtrio have great synergy, Ninetales hinders faster Physical sweepers with Will-o-Wisp and maybe Roar, and Xatu plus a spinner/hazard layer (I prefer Forre myself) if you so choose allows the sweepers to safely do what they're supposed to do. Not to say Sand isn't good: It's just much more suited to balanced.
  10. Dragonicwari

    Dragonicwari

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    Has anyone else noticed a trend of mono type teams? For whatever reason I keep getting pitted against them and 9/10 times I'm just sitting there saying: "yay, free points :D"
  11. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    I have as well but I think it's practicing for a tournament or just for fun. There Spe some very well built teams though so I keep my guard up when facing them, unless its an obviously bad team. Maybe its a trend though I certainly have seen many of them popping up on the ladder.
  12. Dragonicwari

    Dragonicwari

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    I actually asked a few of them and they said it wasn't for a tournament. How would everyone feel about mono type being the next big thing in ou? It is hard to pull off but if you can make a good mono type team it is hard to beat (especially if hax interferes at the right time)
  13. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Monotype is pretty gimmicky, and it restricts your teambuilding too much to be really considered as an actual style of team. If you run mono water, which is one of the more common teams I see, because Politoed, you need to run Gastrodon or Quagsire for Thundurus-T, you need to run Gyarados for something that isn't eaten alive by Celebi, you need to run Starmie or Tentacruel (or, god forbid it, Blastoise) for Rapid Spin support... There's just to much going on for a team with one typing to handle without it being essentially the same team.
    You could make an argument for certain teams viability, though. Mono fighting seems decent, and now that Kyurem-B is here, mono Dragon doesn't get eaten alive by Mamoswine anymore, and everyone knows that Dragspam is a very effective style of play.
  14. Eleman

    Eleman

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    Yeah, I see monotype all the time on Showdown and it is getting to be very common for users who just want to have a good time. Monotype is only for the person who is not competitive and just wants to try out something new. I agree monotype is gimmicky but it is interesting to try because you have to put into account the type that the team is weak to and cover it up with another pokemon with a strategy or dual typing that counters that particular type. Team building is essential as it takes a lot of time to find the right pokemon for each team slot. Oh btw I prefer using ground as my type because of the powerful threats like Landorus that can wreck the entire metagame, although it is pretty underrated. It also sets up sand with Hippowdon and can resist water and ice with a Quagsire or your ground/water pokemon of choice. Grass is resisted by Acrobat Gliscor and Landorus.
  15. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Monodrag and Monofighting are probably the only two Monotypes that could be anywhere close to competitive, truth be told. Of course, they're both WRECKED by Spikes and Stealth Rock, respectively, but when you're constraining your team-building by THAT MUCH you're going to have gaping holes.
  16. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    I think Monowater also is competitive because it only has 2 weaknesses, and has an incredible variety of pokes to use, with Water/Grounds and spinners, etc. Lantern stops electric types too. They have access Rotom Rain as well, and thus should be considered at least decently competitive when regarding genotype teams.
  17. Morgenstern

    Morgenstern

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    What do you guys think about DragMag? Effective but underrated? Or just bad? c:
  18. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

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    I personally think that Landorus-T killed DragMag teams. In fact, I want to say that it killed Physical Dragons in general, not to extreme extents but they are suffering from its massive presence in the metagame.

    This is the first time we have had a Pokemon with Intimidate, good bulk, no Stealth Rock weakness, and even forces Dragons to Outrage early since they can't do anything else; you can't even wear it down with Sand Storm; to make this sentence even longer, it comes with Stealth Rock and U-Turn so it's multipurpose! I think it is hands down the best utility Pokemon in the tier right now because it just does everything you could ever need it to do. Fighting-counter, Rock-Check, Ground-Check, Dragon-counter, Stealth Rocker, U-Turner, Defensive Pivot, and even Wall-Breaker and that's just one set!

    It's not super obvious right now but if Landorus-I does end up getting the suspect treatment and does get the boot, species clause isn't a factor anymore and we're going to see just how dominant Landorus-T really is because the usage stats right now do it no justice. #21 would be a great placement for any other Pokemon but this guy should realistically be right next to Heatran.

    And speaking of the Pokemon currently right next to Heatran in usage, Dragonite is definitely going to take a tumble for probably the first time in 5th Gen history if Landorus-T rises. Aside from Rain sets, Dragonite isn't too great at running Mixed and has no way to stopping Landorus-T other than Sub-Roosting all of HP Ice's PP. Garchomp on the other hand can actually break through Landorus-T with SD Yache but only with Yache. But even then, Landorus-T forces Chomp to Outrage which is an open invitation for a Steel-type like Ferrothorn to take care of business. And ScarfMence is just a joke to Landorus-T and I can't believe it's still being used even with Mamoswine and Scarf Terrakion/Keldeo being popular as well on top of all the Steel-types.
    Seriously, stop that crap. You're making Salamence look bad. He'd probably a better Mixed-Attacker than Hydreigon if it weren't for Blissey/Chansey. Same goes for Garchomp actually; a modified ChainChomp set with EQ, DMeteor, Fire Blast, and DragTail is imo his best and most unexpected set and I'd probably run it through C&C if I didn't have 2 analyses already active./tangent

    I had another point to make but I lost it during the Salamence/Garchomp tangent. Oh well. Main point was that DragMag is easily beaten even without Steel-types and it's kinda hilarious. Like seriously, Landorus-T+Tyranitar beats every Dragon but Hydreigon, MixMence, and ChainChomp. It's a relatively easy play-style to fight nowadays. Too many good walls, pursuers, and scarfmons for it to be all that viable currently.
  19. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus

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    I have to completely disagree with this assertion; as a matter of fact DragMag is probably better than ever now that Deo-D is gone with its easy SR and we have Kube+Garchomp. Lando-T has definitely is a pain to Drag-Mag since the power of Dragon Dancer's, aka Salamence and Dragonite, are essentially neutralized. But Lando-T has a severe flaw with Drag-Mag: most Dragon's are immune to its main STAB in EQ. If it elects not to run HP Ice (which the majority of the time it does not) then it has to rely on the inaccurate and low-pp Stone Edge to do any damage. Lando-T also lacks reliable recovery so it falls prey to the classic tatic of Drag-Mag, getting worn down.

    Kyurem-B has been such a great boon to Drag-Mag; it is hilariously good. It is extremely bulky with 252 HP EV's checks just about everything, including Starmie which is surprisingly annoying for Drag-Mag. Slap 252+ Atk EV's on with a CB and not even the Ferrothorn will be able cope with you throughout the match. It is an excellent lure for both Skarmory and Lando-T, hitting both extremely hard with Fusion Bolt and Ice Beam respectively. Lando-T and Gliscor are both OHKO'ed even with 0- SpA Ice Beam! Absurd wallbreaker, check for dangerous Pokemon, and lure packaged into one awesome Dragon.

    Garchomp also is my second favorite Dragon on Drag-Mag. Its lead Focus Sash Lead set is an A++ tier hazard setter and keeps the Dragon pressure on from the start of the match. Sash-chomp with Fire Blast lures out Forretress early game to get him out of the way for your other Dragons. Out of all the Dragons, Choice Scarf Garchomp is the best cleaner in my opinion (yes even better than Mence). Unlike Scarf Latios which only can use the relatively weak base 90 D-pulse, Garchomp gets both a 120 bp Outrage and 100 base STAB'ed EQ. It's stronger than Latios basically. It's STAB EQ and slightly higher base speed really count IMO over Salamence, since you are not forced to tie with Choice Scarf Jirachi (which is everywhere) or lose to Choice Scarf Thunderus-T.


    Here is my go-to DragMag team that I used to get req's. Gyarados seems like a weird decision, but it lures is a great check to both Mamoswine and Landorus-I. In addition, it acts as a deterence to opposing Landorus-T and Tyranitar. (ugh ps! down)

    edit: here it is
    Show Hide
    Magnezone @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 134 Spd / 122 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Flash Cannon

    Dragonite @ Choice Band
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Punch
    - ExtremeSpeed

    Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Psyshock
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf

    Gyarados @ Choice Band
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 168 Spd / 252 Atk / 88 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Waterfall
    - Earthquake
    - Double-Edge
    - Ice Fang

    Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Outrage
    - Dragon Claw
    - Sleep Talk
    - Fusion Bolt

    Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Outrage
    - Dual Chop

  20. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    DragMag will look bad,if you focus only on steels and ignore other potential walls.If Landorus-T/Gliscor is a problem,stacking up multiple strong physical attackers will let you lure out and break through physical walls via overloading,letting you're other physical cleaners sweep easily.Chloro sweepers and Mamoswine are honestly the only pokes DragMag really has trouble with.
  21. Morgenstern

    Morgenstern

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    I agree that Kyurem-B is pretty good in DragMag. I had alot of sucess running the Sub 3 Attacks, that thing does wonders. If you can get rid of a Pokemon that is stopping you or weaken it enough, you basicly get a Kyurem-B sweep thanks to not being lock in CB and having Substitute instead. So imo Sub>CB for wallbreaking and cleaning up stuff, but man the power of CB Kyurem-B is just amazing, cant deny it.

    Lead Garchomp is pretty strong, but Swords Dance is much better than Fire Blast on Garchomp, yeah you might be able to break through some Steel types like Forretress and Scizor, but you are limiting Garchomp in a way to inflict massive damage after a Swords Dance after setting Stealth Rocks. You are wasting an important moveslot for something that Magnezone can do, and even other Dragons that carry Dragon/Ground/Fire for coverage can.

    And for Scarf Garchomp, yes it is stronger than Scarf Mence and Scarf Latios in terms of power and speed in Mence case, but even though Latios is weaker, its better as a cleaner since it can deal with a +2 259 Speed Pokemon that would otherwise clean the rest of your team since Garchomp isnt fast enough to revenge kill it. Also Scarf Latias with Healing Wish needs a mention, I have used it many times and its very effective in many situations, not only she is bulky, she has a 110 base Speed and that Healing Wish that saves your ass in many situations. I think that makes up for the lower Sp Atk, but if you think about it, if Latios gets paralized for example it practicly becomes useless the rest of the game, but in Latias case you still have that Healing Wish and can use it to heal another Pokemon(Remember it heals not only HP but also Status, think of it as using a Full Restore in a Pokemon in your difficult battle against Lance's Dragonite and u sacrifice a useless Pokemon in order to restore the other Pokemon that is going to be more effective.)

    And has anyone tried Focus Sash Lead Aerodactyl? I have used it and even though its pretty weak, its a super fast Stealth Rock setter and has access to Fire Blast that many people dont expect it to have. And what other Leads for DragMag have you used that you had success with or think that deserve a mention?
    A good DragMag doesnt only focus on Steel types. And Chlorophyll sweepers arent that much of a problemto be honest, DragMag has enough ways to deal with them, the only real problem would be a +2 Timid Venusaur carrying Sludge Bomb and have Stealth Rocks in the fieldand lacking any priority attacks.
  22. EspeonX

    EspeonX

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    But 112 HP Latias lives a +2 Sludge Bomb in the sun at full health (84-99%). If you run DragMag with Latias, you should be able to keep SR off the field in most matches, so as long as you don't let Latias take any damage, you won't have a massive problem with Venusaur. Scarf Latias also outspeeds +2 Modest/Naughty Venusaur, for reference.

    If you want a more reliable check to it, running your own Thick Fat CB Mamoswine allows you to easily revenge kill Venusaur. Thick Fat also means Mamoswine resists Ice moves iirc. Weavile works too.
  23. nmitchell890

    nmitchell890

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    As someone that has run DragMag since before the Genesect era, I can say that Choice Band Kyurem-B is hilariously powerful, and bulky at the same time. You have no idea how many times my opponents have sac'd a weakened pokemon to bring in a revenge killer, only to see it get KOed as Kyurem-B survives their attack and retaliates. It is extremely easy to bring in as well if Stealth Rock is kept off the field, and I have lead Azelf for that. Just for reference, the two bulkiest pokemon on the physical side allowed in OU; Tangrowth and Hippowdon, take 60% minimum from Outrage.

    I agree with ThePillsburyDoughBoy when he says that Garchomp is better than both Salamence and Latios when holding a Choice Scarf. The extra speed it has over Salamence is crucial for avoiding being revenge killed by Jirachi and Thundurus-T (though I haven't seen too many of either) and is still powerful enough to clean up even without Moxie, which is its advantage over Latios. Another advantage is its bulk, it can take on Terrakion even if it holds a Choice Scarf as it will always survive at least one move, this has saved my ass on many occasions.

    As for dealing with Chlorophyll pokemon, I pack mixed Abomasnow. Even against Sunny Day Venusaur (yes I have faced one) Abomasnow wins with Expert Belt Ice Shard. Admittedly it was weakened and I haven't done the calc so idk if it would KO from full HP. My Abomasnow is Lonely, with 252 Atk EVs and an Expert Belt. Abomasnow also helps with rain and Gliscor/Landorus-T, and can lure Scizor into Hidden Power Fire if it wants to U-Turn all day to escape Magnezone. I won't be replacing Abomasnow on my team.
  24. Morgenstern

    Morgenstern

    Joined:
    May 27, 2012
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    Ok tell me, how does a Latias prevent Stealth Rocks? Alot of people sacrifice their Pokemon in order to set up Stealth Rocks, also Venusaur isnt a massive problem until mid-late and hes only a problem if its running a Timid nature and is +2 but since its DragMag, it has difficulties setting up. And sadly i have seen alot of people run Modest Venusaur thinking that it still outspeeds everything so they prefer Power>Speed. Also the calc you did is the same damage a +2 Timid (84.05 - 99%) on a 0 HP/8 Sp Def Latias, there is no need to waste 112 evs on HP if you are gonna outspeed the Modest one and the Timid one has a 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rocks.

    And for the guy with the Abomasnow, max Attack Expert Belt Ice Shard only does (53.31 - 62.91%) so you basically lose 1v1.
  25. TaBuu

    TaBuu

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
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    Do you guys ever think Kyurem-Black will see its days in Ubers again?
    I mean, this guy has massive bulk that can be coupled together with Substitute and Roost. Kyurem-B has massive Attack power. I've noticed that pretty much any Pokemon with extremely retarded Uber-like stats always find themselves suspected. But it doesn't stop here. Kyurem-B can be versatile which sets it apart from things like Blissey, even though she has a godly HP Stat, who can only perform one job. Kyurem-B can go mixed, Banded, Scarfed or Sub.
    I don't know. I just feel like something with this much bulk, coverage and power might have a chance to get kicked back up... (?)

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