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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. Curtains

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    Well the problem is that the smogon community decided that weather was going to be "the metagame". I agree 100% that the metagame lacks the beauty in team making that DPP had. No matter what kind of team you have you always have to have a pokemon to take a boosted water/fire attacks. I remember in DPP when you had teams that looked so weird but they worked and had the synergy to keep it alive. I don't think the metagame should be 3 pokemon fighting each other. I think it would open up a variety of more pokemon if at least sun and rain were gone. The interesting thing is that the team preview is less helpful this gen than it would have been last gen. Once you seen the weather you know what kind of pokemon they may have.... Do I have a solution? No.. It is way too late to ban weather. I think splitting the official metagames up is a good start. So if the people that want to play "kill the politoed, ninetales, tyranitar" want to play that they can. Otherwise the people that want to play pokemon can play without weather. I would like to see clear skies be the main metagame and weather be an auxillary tier like RU and UU.


    @pocket:

    There is also a huge difference between volcarona, heatran and starmie in clear skies and those pokemon in their weathers. Of course you need to pack the resist and have good team synergy. But the difference between taking a unboosted hydro pump and a boosted hydro pump is very significant. Also some of those creative pokemon sets you stated need weather to even be effective and to be honest besides cresselia, conk and the custap leads those sets are highly situational.
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Conflict and later on shrang know what they're talking about. There are always room for innovation in competitive Pokemon. Innovations are what sets apart exceptional players from good players. As Conflict, the semifinalist of OST 9, have stated, he used many non-standard options to climb his way to the top. Hellpwna and gr8astard both used SD Feraligatr, a Pokemon in RU, to win the finals of SPL and OST, respectively. SPL and tours were where many uncommon sets began to emerge, such as EB HP Bug Keldeo, Healing Wish Jirachi, Focus Sash Tyranitar, Sun Cresselia, custap leads, and the comeback of Conkeldurr.

    Also, let's not pretend that removing sun and rain would all of a sudden remove the need to pack a strong fire or water resist. Specs Keldeo, Starmie, Heatran, and Volcarona would still demand for solid resistances of both elements. If you think banning Rain and Sun will solve the problems of "creativity," you're sorely mistaken.
  3. peng

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    lol

    its not Specs Keldeo thats the issue, its facing a Specs Keldeo with another 1.5 boost on top of that, or a Scarf Keldeo that effectively gets a Specs boost too.

    theres a massive difference between preparing for a rain-boosted Keldeo and a non-rain boosted Keldeo. having played exclusively stall for the last few months before I "quit", I can't stress enough how big a strain the weather boosts put on defensive teambuilding. specs Keldeo in rain 2HKOs even the bulkiest water resists (i.e. celebi), limiting you to use Jellicent from the offset which well built rain teams will always capitalise on, as we saw in OST finals. the exact same principle applies for volcarona, where defensive teams nearly always need to pack SDef Hippowdon or Heatran (preferably both). take away its immediate +1 boost to fire attacks, and its ability to set-up on numerous bulky waters (some of which would be checks, if not counters, in a sun-less format) and theres no doubt it becomes much easier to handle, and doesn't force you to use one of these two pokemon.

    i'm not saying i 100% agree with bkc because i do think that there is still some place for creativity in bw2 ou, and i'm also not trying to say that rain and sun should be banned because they put too much strain on defensive teams - i havent played enough recently to make such a comment. however, claiming that defensive teams don't get a bunch of new options to play with if rain and sun aren't in the picture is just outright ignorant, and honestly it looks if you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

    clearly these teams still need to run water and fire resistances, but there are far more choices available to you as your pokemon only need to be able to tank specs or +1 boosted attacks, not specs + another 1.5 boost on top of that. i really don't understand how you can disagree with this...
  4. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    everything penguinx said is right but i'm going to expand a little upon it i guess, just cause posts like pocket's piss me off.

    specs keldeo isn't a problem for a well-constructed stall team to handle. stuff like sdef rachi, sdef celebi, and even sdef zapdos to a certain extent can take care of it. specs keldeo in rain is an entirely different story. now you're 2hkoing jirachi with surf, 2hkoing celebi with hydro pump, and ohkoing zapdos with surf after rocks sometimes (always with hpump). if it's not painfully obvious yet what makes keldeo broken, let's offer another example. scarf keldeo outside of rain doesn't even 3hko latios with surf, and can't ohko gengar with surf, even after rocks. in rain, it gets an easy 3hko on latios, and ohkos gengar even without rocks up. i could flood the page with damage calcs but i'm not going to go to such lengths to make a relatively simple point that some people apparently still don't understand...if you want a more clear and intelligent view of why rain's killing the metagame, refer to this thread (i think the ten experienced and accredited players that support a drizzle ban, as opposed to the mere two against, speaks for itself tbh).
  5. BKC

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    shrang, please don't act like you understand the tournament mindset. the difference between the good gimmicks (this is what you see in tours) and bad gimmicks (the trash you're using) is that the gimmicks you see in high-level play have a purpose. they punish a pokemon's usual counters. bad gimmicks are creativity just for the sake of being creative, with disregard for the actual effectiveness of the set, such as the mighty double dance skarmory (anyone who played wifi with the youtube community will remember the 'origifags' who bitched about 'OU whores' and made their own rules [no skarmbliss!!1]).

    everything else i wanted to say has already been excellently phrased by yee, curtains, peng & lavos.
  6. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    I wasn't even being serious about Double Dance Skarm lol. It was just something I had always liked to troll with. The difference is that I enjoy what I'm doing, and you're just hating on everything. I'm not using Double Dance Skarmory for the sake of going being hipster, I'm doing it for curiosity. However bad it may be, I don't really give a shit. Besides, if "good gimmicks" exist, why are you complaining about lack of creativity? It clearly exists. There are plenty of new sets coming into C&C all the time. A lot of them get approved, or very close to being approved. You can berate me for using bad gimmicks, but at least I'm out there looking, instead of sitting around complaining about everything. There are plenty of new things that can still be discovered. If you can't find them, don't blame the metagame, you are either not looking hard enough or you are just unlucky in your pursuits. It's fine to stereotype teams and things that you need to run to work well in this metagame, but you cannot ignore micro-variations or even large scale variation that run across the board. This still comes back to how seriously you're taking this. Like I said, if you don't like the metagame, don't play it. Play something else. In the end, you're not getting paid for this. You don't have to earn a living from it. So what are you getting out of it? If it's not enjoyment, then I'd like to know what it is. If it is, then the clear answer would be to go and play something you do enjoy. Complaints about the metagame only tend to make everyone else unhappy while not bringing you any in return. Negativity is highly contagious. I'm not even going to get into the fact that plenty of people DO enjoy the metagame we're in, myself included, to a certain extent.
  7. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    PenguinX, who said about defensive teams? I was speaking of BW2 teams in general.

    Ummm...252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi in rain: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.78%) -- guaranteed 3HKO =/= 2HKO. Even with Rocks, Specs Hydro Pump has 0.39% chance of 2HKO, not even accounting its 80% accuracy.

    Also - 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 211-249 (52.22 - 61.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. So no, SDef Jirachi (or SDef Zapdos) doesn't take care of Specs Keldeo even without Rain, and you would still need a solid Water resist to deal with Specs Keldeo.

    Let's stop thinking with the mindset of hard-countering mons and begin thinking about checking mons. This is BW2 where offensive behemoths like Kyurem-B are present - you cant counter everything. That's not to say that Keldeo already have a handful of solid counters, not to mention plenty of checks. It's not like Excadrill where it is uncheckable other than priority, changing weather, and some few defensive threats, nor is Keldeo like Genesect or Tornadus-T, who can easily U-turn out of a disadvantaged position and grab momentum. No, Keldeo, like other Pokemon, requires significant support to break through a well-constructed team. There are Pokemon that Keldeo simply cannot muscle through, and requires such threats to be removed to have any freedom of action in a given match. Even with Rain support, which is a significant investment in itself (Politoed...), Keldeo experiences these obstacles. In fact, you're better off supporting Keldeo with Tyranitar than with Politoed, and many competitive players have realized this, as seen by many variations of the highly effective Keldeo-TTar teams. This is me speaking as a frequent Rain Keldeo user (and of course facing opposing Rain Keldeo). Perhaps if Rain granted Keldeo double speed, similarly to how Excadrill doubled in Speed with sand support, then we would have a truly unstoppable (ie uncheckable) beast in our hands (although, such pairing would be prohibited by Aldaron's Proposal anyway!) As it stands now, Rain is hardly breaking the metagame.

    Let's get the numbers right, there are 6 anti-Drizzle users, 2 pro-Drizzle users, and 1 neutral user. Apparently OU mods and I didn't do a good job evening out the playing field, with a much larger representation of anti-Drizzle sentiment than pro-Drizzle. If we go by quality over quantity, however, I have to say the two camps are evenly matched (and this is me being generous, because some arguments from the anti-Drizzle camp are based highly on shaky conjecture / hypothesis).
  8. ZandgaiaX

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    I'm not going to mix in with any discussion, but Shrang. I think you need to realise that a gimmick is meant to suprise the opposing player, if it's on the main-site. It's pretty much by definition not suprising and thus not-gimmick.

    You know what's gimmick?:
    Healing Wish Jirachi before it became 'main stream', though it's still cool to use once in a while.
    Porygon2 with trick scarf/specs back in DPP
    Jirachi lead with E-ball over U-turn to net the 2HKO on opposing swampert leads in DPP
    Scarf Rotom-H running HP-ground instead of Overheat to play mindgames against scizor and the KO/2HKO on Heatran in DPP.

    Those are useful and suprising gimmicks, they are still reliable after the suprise has been lost.

    You know what isn't a gimmick anymore? HP-ghost or HP-Bug Keldeo, yes it was a gimmick, but it is becoming so common that the definition of gimmick is lost.

    Also I'm suprised people think original sets have been thought up lately. I mean look at baton pass Celebi: it has been hailed as an incredible anti-trapping set, something that is unexpected and useful. Never mind that that strategy was around since Gen4 at least. People have become lazy in this metagame, and team preview, far more powerful pokémon and weather have caused it. I mean, people I played against have been suprised that PORYGON2 is ABLE to wall dragons, I call that a massive disappointment about the overall knowledge the average player has.

    Incredible important parts of comp. pokémon have been lost in the transition from DPP to BW. Scouting and the lead metagame being the most important ones. Scouting is now only there to 'get out' again, deal heavy damage or see if they stay in or not. In DPP it was essential to utilize scouting to find out your opposing team's pokémon, sets and potential ass-pulls. With the lead metagame being essential to set-up SR, potentially screens, perhaps learning what the entire style of the opposing team is. That's massive for knowing just a single pokémon. There's a reason Aerodactyl and Azelf were OU and had massive lead-usage.
  9. BKC

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    oh i try new stuff all the time. i just have the ability to realise "why am i not using *insert standard here* when it does the job so much better" (i.e. why use amoonguss/defensive loom/roserade when there's celebi?).

    i'm competitive. i'll play the standard tier since i'm going to need to if i want to do well in relevant tournaments (christ knows i'd have quit by now if it weren't for the team tours, SPL & WCoP). so no, i'm not going to leave the metagame to rot.

    "who cares about how badly defensive teams get screwed by these weather abusers? just abuse it yourself!"

    if celebi's not at 100% or very close to it, it loses.

    new player: hey experienced veteran, how do you counter x?
    experienced veteran using pocket's logic: well, uh, you can't actually counter it...
    new player: why isn't it banned?!
    experienced veteran: it's checkable!
    new player: well, so are kyogre and rayquaza...
    experienced veteran: good point! let's test them in OU!

    why do you insist on keeping this incredibly deluded viewpoint? argument for the sake of argument, i guess

    maybe there's a reason why there are so many more anti-drizzlers than pro-drizzlers.

    absolute bullshit
  10. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Winner of the Biggest Dork Competition 2014
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    Have you tried making a defensive team without something to absorb Toxic Spikes? Unless you load it with TSpikes immunities it's not exactly easy, and if you load it with Flying/Steel/otherwise immune Pokemon there'll probably be a slipup somewhere and you'll end up getting an important Pokemon badly poisoned.
    EDIT: I kind of missed the point of this, sorry ._. thanks to Neliel for pointing it out
    We're all competitive here, otherwise none of us would be here in the first place... and "competitive" doesn't mean "hey I'm only running the absolute best things because nothing else is worth running." I'm a competitive player and I managed to pull a short win streak with SubCM Drifblim (I ended up getting stopped by a SubCM Latias and never got around to fixing that issue). I brought up Mandibuzz in the Landorus thread and several people acknowledged that it was a damn good wall. I've seen far better players than myself rave about SubRoost Kyurem, Slowbro, and even Swords Dance Jumpluff. Creativity does get you places. If you don't want to try out something new because you're afraid you'll lose, you're either not really "competitive" or you're actively trying to pigeonhole yourself.
    It's not like defensive teams are destined to lose to a weather-boosted sweeper. There are humans on both sides - the Rain Offense user can try to bait that stally Jellicent, but the Jellicent player can just as easily play around the Rain user and keep Jellicent healthy while keeping Keldeo at bay.

    I'll respond to the rest later, if I get around to it.

    EDIT: I really hope this post didn't come off as some sort of personal attack, because it certainly wasn't my intention. Sorry if it did...
  11. alexwolf

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    If it's so painfully obvious what makes Keldeo broken, then why isn't this factor (Drizzle) making other Pokemon broken too? And no, 2-3 examples of Pokemon that we banned partially due to Drizzle won't make it, as Drizzle has brought into the metagame much more Pokemon than it has removed. Why so many other offensive rain abusers, such as Starmie, Gyarados, Thundurus-T, Toxicroak, and SubCM Jirachi are not broken? Maybe you have to start considering that Drizzle is not the factor that is breaking Keldeo (assuming Keldeo is broken just for the sake of the conversation) and that the combo of Keldeo's excellent traits in addition to Drizzle is what break Keldeo. And the most logical option is to ban the Pokemon (like we always do), and not single out the traits that contribute in making it what it is and ban whatever fits us best out of those traits (in this case Drizzle).

    And please people, let's keep it civil, this thread has started becoming really shitty and hard to read.
  12. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    I'm sorry but the concept of "countering" (in the traditional sense) every Pokemon in the metagame went out the window in 2007 when D/P was released.

    You clearly didn't get the main message I was telling you to do. If you want it clearly, it's "stop whinging". Is that too much to ask? We are all a community here and I'd prefer if we were more civil and peaceful when we go about our business. Like I said, negativity is very contagious. Stop trying to champion your ideas and attitudes onto the rest of the community. You are just a member of this community like everyone else, stop believing you are all important and the divine saviour of this metagame.
  13. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    what he means is that you are just deciding if you want to lose against X or Y. If you chose Amoonguss you lose natural cure, so scald will ruin your bulky grass, not to mention it has a shitty movepool with only giga drain and nothing else, if you chose breloom you win against ferrothorn but you dont check fighting types anymore while not absorbing ts (and poison heal doesnt give you many hp under sand, even with lseed+protect) , if you use roserade you will have to rely on rest to stay alive and we all know how bad rest is in this metagame.. At the end you realise that the qualities celebi has surpasses its flaws so even if its weak to pursuit/bug and doesnt absorb ts its still the best option to use.
  14. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs Rule 51
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    "Why isn't Drizzle making other Pokemon broken too? Oh, but you can't use Manaphy as an example, even though it was largely banned thanks to HydraRest and boosted Surfs. Oh, and you can't mention Tornadus-T, although it would have been far from broken without the perfectly accurate Hurricane that Rain provides. Oh yeah, and let's not mention Thundurus, although that perfectly accurate Thunder in Rain helped push it over the edge. Can we also not mention those Swift Swim users? I know Swift Swim wouldn't have even been worth a mention were it not for Drizzle, but let's just not mention that either."

    Until we can get a reliable and comprehensive list of each Pokemon that has increased/decreased in viability with the advent of Drizzle with empirical evidence to validate such a list (which is all but impossible), I fail to see how this argument or it's antithesis are even viable since they are nothing short of conjecture.

    Perhaps the same reason that so many Swift Swimmers weren't broken?

    Drizzle + Swift Swim? Moody? Sand Veil / Snow Cloak?

    If only Amoonguss had some good utility moves, like Spore...

    EDIT: Oh yeah, by the way...

    Can you please not even go there? This kind of arrogance and bad-mouthing really has no place in this sort of discussion, and it's kinda ridiculous how much of this sort of thing I've been seeing lately.
  15. Zephir

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    When something as intelligent as spamming Hydro pump with one pokemon can be a win condition against a defensive team without a water immunity (2hko-ing a 100/100 resistance with very little prior damages, or killing another key member) you know there's something wrong. But you chose to focus on the form instead of the susbstance.
  16. George Eliot

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    Objectively speaking we all know how ridiculous Drizzle's benefits are. I can't understand the mindset which accepts this and says, let's just ban everything which Drizzle pushes over the edge, not Drizzle. It's the root of the problem, and it will continue to be a problem until we get rid of it. The only reason that we might want to keep it is if it were promoting incredible versatility / popularising new Pokemon within the metagame, to a greater extent than it was forcing them to get banned and forcing other pokemon out of use, and it just isn't. Even if we remove every possible rain-abusing suspect, Specs Politoed alone centralises the metagame excessively.
  17. alexwolf

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    Even if you do take those Pokemon into account, it is a fact that the overhwelming majority of Pokemon that directly take advantage of rain are not broken. Tentacruel, Jirachi, Gyarados, Toxicroak, Starmie, Hydration Vaporeon, Ferrothorn, Cloyster, Jolteon, Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, and even some Pokemon that are not OU but are very viable in OU, such as Feraligatr, Sharpedo, Tornadus, and Empoleon, none of those Pokemon became broken with Drizzle support. How can you accuse Drizzle of being broken, when the majority of its abusers isn't and only a select few Pokemon are (some of which would be suspects even without rain around, such as Thundurus)? It doesn't make sense. The only valid argument against Drizzle that has been presented from the pro-ban Drizzle side is the increased match-up reliance.

    Not really. The only Pokemon that became unviable in OU due to rain are those that gain nothing from it while getting hurt by strong-water attacks. I am only talking about Pokemon that became unviable due to Drizzle, as even though Pokemon such as Conkeldur and Infernape are not the best Pokemon around, they are still viable and can be used succesfully. You must also take into account that while most Fire-types are hurt by the pressence of rain, the pressence of Drought allows them to still be very viable, somewhat counteracting the effect that Drizzle had on those Fire-types. So, between Steel, Grass, Electric, and Water-type Pokemon, as well as Pokemon with abilities or moves that work in rain, such as Toxicroak and Tornadus, and between the Pokemon that can't stand water attacks while having no other use in OU, it is pretty clear that Drizzle made the pool of OU viable Pokemon much larger.

    I don't get what this is supposed to mean, but i guess you are reffering to the broken swift swimmers such as Kingdra and Kabutops. Still i don't get the relevance of this to our discussion.

    Those are notable exceptions and you know it. Both had very good reasons to be implemented, the first one saving entire playstyles while having pracically zero downsides and the latter getting banned because they were making the metagame too luck-based.

    Not taking into account how meaningless this statement is, there are already Pokemon that can do this, such as Darmanitan in sun and Choice Band Kyurem-B.
  18. Agent Gibbs

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    Quite frankly, you're understating just how many Pokemon are included in that list. Between the three I mentioned by name and all the fully evolved Swift Swim users, you have a little over 20 Pokemon that were banned or neutered due to the effects of Drizzle. The fact that we have lots of unbroken Drizzle abusers left in OU doesn't really impress me considering how much we've done to make it that way. Not to mention that "Drizzle abuser" is a pretty unclear term in and of itself. I mean, Thunder / Hurricane / Surf Dragonite is obviously a Drizzle abuser for several reasons, but many Pokemon like Ferrothorn get only marginal advantages from Rain (i.e. lessened Fire weakness, stronger STAB) compared to others.

    But all this is beside my actual point, which I will address later.

    The problem is still the same, though. I'm not seeing any concrete evidence as to which Pokemon would suffer/benefit from a Drizzle ban, just guessing. Keep in mind I'm not only addressing the pro-Drizzle side with this. I think that even the pro-ban side shouldn't use this argument that banning Drizzle would improve creativity because, again, there's no way to prove either side. It's just theorymonning.

    Some of these are irrelevant. Steel types are Steel types, they have tons of useful resistances and are some of the few Pokemon to be able to handle Dragon attacks. Banning Drizzle isn't going to make them unviable. There are only 4 Grass-types in OU. Of them, Venusaur would actually benefit from Drizzle's ban due to less weather competition, and Breloom is hardly a Rain abuser (except the fairly outdated BU set). Celebi is still a great answer to bulky Waters due to Natural Cure, reliable recovery, etc. regardless of whether or not Drizzle is around. Ferrothorn is...Ferrothorn. It still has a fantastic support movepool and great typing (it's #2 on the usage stats right now, it's not going to suffer that much). There are also only 4 Electric types. Magnezone still traps Steels regardless. Jolteon is here less for its ability to abuse Rain and more for its speed, and Thundurus-T is OU for its insane power and ability to sweep with either Nasty Plot or Agility (or both). Rotom-W still has great typing and coverage. Bar Rotom-W's Hydro Pump, the only benefit these guys are getting is a 26% more powerful STAB move. Water types will miss their STAB boost, but come on, they're still Water types. Water has always been a great typing, and that's not going to change just because Drizzle is gone.

    As for the other two, I agree that they might suffer, but how do we know to what extent? Perhaps the lack of permanent Rain will make Prankster Rain Dance Tornadus more popular, or perhaps Toxicroak might still be used as an offensive check to Keldeo and Terrakion. There's no way of knowing for sure.

    Let me put it this way, how many Swift Swimmers were broken? The only ones I've ever heard definitely condemned were Kingdra and Kabutops, with a few people arguing for Ludicolo and Omastar as well. Were the others broken? What about Floatzel, or Poliwrath, or Relicanth, or all the other Swift Swimmers that might not have been broken? If the majority of Swift Swim users were not broken and we truly, as you say, always ban the Pokemon, why did we not just ban the handful that were broken?

    You're arguing that if Drizzle were banned, it would destroy the viability of too many Pokemon. Yet back with the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban, we crippled a little under 20 Pokemon because of the brokenness of a handful. If Drizzle is considered to be the breaking point for all those aforementioned bans, why should we not ban Drizzle instead?
  19. UltiMario

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    This statement implies that only the "top" threats of DrizzleSwSw were actually the ones that would make the combo broken.

    If we banned the abusers on an individual basis, in all likelyhood Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, Floatzel, Huntail, Gorebyss, Omastar, Qwilfish, Carracosta, and Poliwrath (and maybe even Poliwhirl, thanks to Belly Drum) could easily be sitting in Ubers right now. That's 10-11 out of 19-20 usable Pokemon for the ability that could've been banned. More than half. We crippled around 20 Pokemon, yes, but it was to keep at least 10 out of Ubers. It's very clear the specific combo of DrizzleSwSw breaks anything with good stats, typing, or movepool that it touches. It kept so many of the users out of Ubers that the net change is less crippling to Swift Swimmers as compared to actually banning Drizzle. Kingdra admittedly isn't used often, but it exists thanks to its anti-Drizzle team role. That's a lot better than being Ubers, and a lot better than never being used in OU at all because without Drizzle it would have no niche.
  20. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs Rule 51
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    Oh, Drizzle + Swift Swim was definitely more drastic than Drizzle alone, I'm not arguing against that. I simply want to put an ax in this mindset that we only ban the Pokemon. The fact is, Smogon's ban history has its share of condition bans that affected even unbroken Pokemon, and this was done in an attempt to benefit the metagame overall and generally to cause as few bans to Ubers as possible. Likewise, the argument about Drizzle becomes a question of whether or not it would be beneficial for the metagame to ban Drizzle. While (as I mentioned earlier) it is nearly impossible to decide for certain which exact Pokemon might be more or less viable with such a ban, we can all agree that a Drizzle ban would eliminate a very powerful archetype and possibly allow a few Pokemon banned to Ubers to be unbanned. The debate essentially becomes about whether or not it would be worth it. There could be many Pokemon whose viability is drastically affected, and while we would be eliminating all Rain-based playstyles, this also could put less stress on teambuilding from a defensive standpoint, but there's no way to know for sure. This personally why I believe these sorts of debates get so...crazy. There tends to be a lot of theorymonning and "what-ifs" since such a ban would be a very drastic change that we have little experience regarding.

    @Royal Flush: That's just it, we don't want Pokemon to be a gamble. In an ideal competitive metagame, the best player will win. Each of Smogon's bans have been made in order to improve the competitive metagame as such, whether eliminating unnecessary luck through the Moody and Evasion bans, banning broken Pokemon, etc. (not that you can eliminate all luck in Pokemon, but we try). You can't dismiss pro-ban people as "lazy," because someone could just as easily turn around and exaggerate about your position (i.e. "you just want Pokemon to be a complete free-for-all crapshoot with no regard to competitiveness").
  21. Royal Flush

    Royal Flush in brazil rain
    is a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    451
    It's quite funny to see the overall mindset of this community in BW.
    It made me recall a few of MoP's words about banning Salamence back on the last season of DPPt. You're not trying to play the game. At all.
    If you actually argue about Rain centralizing the shit out of this meta or anything similar, you are lying to yourself. You are just lazy. You want Pokemon to be easier, you don't want to take risks. You want to play on autopilot instead of actually thinking ahead, having a plan. You want everything to be counterable (spoiler of your life: after gen 3, this is blatant impossible). Deep in your heart this is exactly what you want, but you keep essaying about things like skill and balance.


    Pokemon in this generation is essentially a gamble. It is a lot more like rock/paper/scissors than Chess. You take risks, sometimes it will pay off, sometimes it won't. It seems like we keep banning the next-big-thing round after round pretending to aim for a balanced meta, but this is rather utopic. A metagame will always shift into something that is dominated by a couple of things, and then it is indeed centralized around those. That's how it works not only in pokemon, but a lot of other competitive shit.
    A wise man once said that Pokemon beats Pokemon with Move, but I feel like people want to beat Pokemon with bans instead.
  22. Vemane

    Vemane

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    Messages:
    398
    It really isn't fair to condemn alexwolf's point because of smogon's ultra-conservative, ultra-simple policy. If the threats were IDEALLY banned, only a handful of them would be in ubers. The rest were tossed simply for simplicity's sake BY smogon, despite some people wanting just a few of them banned.

    Not only that, but if drizzle wasn't around then these threats would not be viable in the first place.

    Drizzle makes SSers strong
    Drizzle+SS is banned
    Those strong SSers are no longer that strong, but can still be used without drizzle/as they were before

    Drizzle+SS ban didn't neuter anything, it just reverted these threats to the nonthreats that they were before.
  23. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs Rule 51
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2011
    Messages:
    784
    You're absolutely right! Smogon does advocate a simple ban policy, and a Drizzle ban would be a very simple way to handle it (and just to clarify, I'm not particularly advocating for a Drizzle ban since I'm not so sure a Drizzle-less metagame would be that much better). Now, normally I'd agree with alexwolf that we should just go Pokemon by Pokemon on bans. However, Drizzle has currently been at least a partial cause in bans that have affected a pretty large group of Pokemon (including a complex ban, which is generally frowned upon). At this point, I'd say that Drizzle has had a big enough impact on bans that a ban on Drizzle itself could and should be considered, so we shouldn't limit ourselves to just banning individual Pokemon, even if there are still many Pokemon that can abuse Drizzle without being broken (as is the case with many kinds of team support).
  24. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,862
    or maybe, just maybe, could it be that there are so many more users supporting a drizzle ban than opposing one because drizzle deserves to be banned? i know that's a shocking conclusion to arrive at based on the data of an overwhelming majority of what kd24 and ginganinja call "intelligent, respected members of the community" being against drizzle in ou, but hey, maybe i'm misreading something.

    come on, pocket, you're really reaching. in a legislative body, for example, if 75% of the members are in favor of a proposed bill, and only 25% are against, do you think the camps are "evenly matched"? stop treating this issue like it's no big deal just because you're on the losing end. the users that ou moderators chose to represent the intelligent smogon community are overwhelming opposed to drizzle in ou. can you stop ignoring what's staring us all in the face?

    refer to below
  25. peng

    peng

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    470
    >asks us why other rain abusers aren't broken
    >banned pokemon don't count
    !

    this entire era of pokemon has been based around banning a rain abuser, waiting for the next metagame-defining rain team to show up and then banning its posterboy sweeper too because we realise rain is still incredibly strong.

    sometimes i think the pro-drizzle camp need to take a big step back and look at how much we have had to bend over backwards based on the arbitrary decision that "we ban the pokemon, not the broken ability":
    - drizzle released
    - drizzle + swsw banned (best abusers at the time)
    - manaphy voted uber (best rain abuser at the time)
    - thundurus-i banned (mostly found on rain, the best rain abuser of the time)
    - tornadus-t banned (best rain abuser at the time)
    - current meta

    out of interest, how many pokemon do you think need to take the fall for drizzle before you'd consider that rain is actually the issue here? 5? 10? 20? or would you be perfectly fine in banning 30 pokemon just so we can keep drizzle and make would-be mediocre pokemon like feraligatr and toxicroak usable? apologies if i'm understanding your argument incorrectly, but from months of trying to understand your posts i get the idea that your argument is: the viability of toxicroak, gatr, and jolteon justifies keeping drizzle ou and letting genuinely good pokemon (regardless of weather) get the boot instead?

    also just like to mention that the rain abusers that are not broken have no place in this argument. if you honestly think that rain needs to make every rain abuser overpowered in order to be broken itself then i don't know how you got a place on this debate thread thing, because thats possibly one of the worst pro-drizzle arguments i've ever read


    banning 3+ and pokemon and neutering a bunch more hoping to nerf the greater problem is not logical, especially when we consider that rain is still the most threatening playstyle around months and years later.

    i honestly laugh every time a new poster on the forums gets slated for asking why we don't allow blaze blaziken in ou. we are doing (almost) the exact same thing with rain but on a much larger scale - just taking away the elements of the playstyle that make it broken so we can keep drizzle in ou. for some reason theres a massive taboo on wanting blaze blaziken and sand force excadrill but its a practically encouraged mindset when we apply the same principle to the meta-defining team archtype?

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