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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Agent Gibbs, indeed the best way to tackle Swift Swimmers were to test individual SwSwimmers. However, as a community we wanted a quick and dirty solution, and Aldaron Proposal was the best compromise that came out of it. That's all there is to it, really.

    Also, the issue isn't that "these Pokemon (Rotom-W, Jirachi, Tornadus, etc) would still be viable outside of Rain," it's an issue of "why nerf these non-broken mons in the first place?" Here's a real-life example - sure, others and I can survive a salary cut when the times are rough for my employer, but I'd rather have a few people that are contributing least be laid off and have the rest of us be paid full salary.

    Of course, as penguinx has pointed out, if we lay out too many people, then there comes a point where an overall salary cut would be the more sensible thing to do. However, if we consider the 3 ubers versus 20+ non-ubers that benefit from Rain, it's apparent that keeping Rain is more beneficial than harmful. Even Keldeo, the closest thing to being broken in Rain, was voted OU, so I don't see why we need to further deal with Rain.
  2. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    Regarding Keldeo's OU vote, I think a contributing factor to its huge popularity nowadays is the disappearance of Tornadus T and also the fact that Thunderous T, for one, is less seen than it was just a few months ago. The metagame is now much more favorable for Keldeo that it was when it was suspected, and thus it has risen as the arguably scariest threat in the metagame. Even Sand teams using Keldeo, when playing Rain teams, kill their own weather user to be able to abuse the Rain boosted Surfs and Hydro Pumps when the situation calls for it.. Without Rain Keldeo would be much more easily dealt with. I feel Keldeo is the newest poke that Drizzle is pushing over the edge.

    Personally, I won't say I dislike this meta: on the contrary, it is imo the closest we've gotten to a balanced metagame since the BW1 meta following Deoxys S ban. Banning Rain now would throw a lot out of balance. However, one must ask: was Manaphy broken without Drizzle? Thundurus? Tornados T? Taking a look at what Drizzle has caused to escalate in usage, one can see Vaporeon, Toxicroak, and has propelled Tenta to the title of best spinner in OU. Drizzle was broken, that is for sure. The question at hand is now whether it deserves to be banned, to prevent more stuff from being banned to Ubers, and bring back formerly banned pokes. I think it shouldn't banned anymore at this point, but if this same question had been brought up during, say Genesect testing, then I would've wholeheartedly supported a ban of Drizzle.
  3. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    I never really understood why anti-rain people complained about a metagame where match-up influenced the outcome almost as much as skill... This is something that would inevitably come to pokemon with more pokemon and potential strategies added..

    Anyway, that was just an aside, I see the REAL reason why rain is such a problem is that to "deal with" rain you essentially forfeit your chance to deal with other strategies and methods. This is in direct contrast to sun, which may be dealt with by using "fewer" pokemon already very viable (assuming no drizzle) as it is "homogenous" rather than "diverse".

    When you're busy finding checks for Jolteon, Keldeo, Tornadus, Ferrothorn, Tentacruel etc and then you realise you found 3 pokemon to check these.. and then you realise these 3 pokemon were chosen from a very very select group of pokemon, you know you have a problem.

    To do well against rain, you forfeit a lot of opportunity against sun/sand teams, I am talking as a weatherless player.. Seriously Heatran does wall sun well, but how good is a metagame where Heatran is "essentially" the ONLY counter to a sun team you can fit on your team because most other sun counters become liabilities in rain.. EDIT: Examples for the picky, celebi and latias counter portions of rain nicely, celebi might retain some use against sand, is useless against sun. Latias retains some use against sun, can't do anything until tyranitar faints againsts sand. When you have a situation where 3/6 of your pokemon check rain nicely but lose A LOT of usefulness otherwise, thats bad..

    I still don't understand the dancing around the issue when its staring us in the face.. Rain has completely warped the metagame, if it wasn't for the prevalence of steels like Ferrothorn and Scizor in the top OU pokemon, I doubt fire would even exist as a coverage option..


    edit 2: you may run 1 or 2 rain checks/counters but then you are so easily "overwhelmed" by the boosted water attacks, the difficulty in koing tentacruel or ferrothorn, the stacked power of starmie/jolteon/toxicroak etc..
  4. Tassa

    Tassa

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    So you consider that all the pokemon which are actually a lot less usefull because of rain doesn't count at all ?

    16 pokemon which are actually in OU (Ferrothorn, Politoed, Jirachi, Nite, Rotom, Starmie, Keldeo, Tentacruel, Thundurus-T, Jellicent, Gyarados, Cloyster, Jolteon, Vaporeon, Toxicroak, Gastrodon) plus Kingdra and Tornadus which have a correct usage. (Some mon like Azumarill certainly need rain, but if they can be viable, there niche is very specific and there is just often something better in long-term)
    (Some mons like Zor "benefit" in a way and are harmed in another, at the end rain doesn't really help them, they're juste correct in)
    You can had things like Blissey if you want but I don't think they seriously benefit from it when there is Keldeo.

    Frome these, 12 would be good (or at least for Cloyster always "overused for it's value") even without (Ferro, Jirachi, Nite, Rotom, Starmie, Keldeo, Tentacruel, Thundurus-T, Jellicent, Gyarados, Cloyster, Jolteon)

    Now look at pokemon which dislike rain (and I'll not count sun mons nor sand setter) : Heatran, Terrakion, Garchomp, Gengar, Zam, Landorus(-T), Gliscor, Mamoswine, Infernape, Espeon, Zone (unability to deal enough damage with HP Fire is huge, though it's not the more harmed), Donphan, Lucario, Conkeldurr, Hydreigon, Reuniclus, Haxorus, and outside of OU you can easily found things like Sableye (really hurt by drizzle)...
    For a lot which dislike, it's "why use this mon, when I could instead abuse of my weather ?" And the fact that they are seriously more hurt by water attack.
    A lot of them are correct/good even with Drizzle ramping, but some are just uninteresting in long term in this meta.
  5. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

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    How are Gengar and Zam hurt by rain?
  6. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    .... *headdesk*

    Guys... Why don't we actually test a rain-free metagame before saying shit like "ban Drizzle" or "don't ban Drizzle" with mere theorymon to back these claims up? Personally, I think we should have done that a while ago. There is no reason to not test a Drizzle-free metagame. Yes, it is late in Generation V's lifespan, but better late than never. All of these arguments about Drizzle when nobody's actually played a Drizzle-free metagame (who played Clear Skies?) just seem senseless.
  7. Tassa

    Tassa

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    + Gengar is now 2HKOed by Cruel and OHKOed by defensive Starmie, OHKOed by Rotom-W...

    For Zam I may souldn't have give its name, though he loses the ability to OHKO Zor with HP Fire which hurt and Forry as well.
  8. Haunter

    Haunter 100% avocado
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    Starmie OHKOs Gengar with psychic\psyshock (and 2HKOs with scald while being faster) even with no SpA investment so that's kind of irrelvant. As for Tentacruel, rain turns a clean 3hko into a 2hko. Note, however, that a 0 SpA calm Tentacrulel does up to 41% to the standard Gengar with scald. Add SR and the 30% burn rate and you realize that Gengar is by no means a good switch into Tentacruel, especially considering that it needs life orb in order to threaten a 2HKO on the standard specially defensive Tentacruel.

    While we all know that rain has a massive impact on the metagame, let's not over-exaggerate things.
  9. Lavos Spawn

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    on the point of gengar v tentacruel matchups, yeah in rain it's true that gengar is pretty bad against tenta and gets 2hko'd by scald, but it can also use that fact to its advantage in several ways - by running either thunder or destiny bond, both of which are in no means bad moves on gengar. i often find myself never using the standard fourth move of disable or pain split, so i usually opt for one of the two options listed above to give me a fighting chance against tenta, which is usually hazards + gengar teams' biggest defensive threat. thunder 2hkos tentacruel and has 100% accuracy in rain, making it a lot easier to shut down, especially if you predict the rapid spin and get gar in for free. it's also really nifty for 2hkoing politoed and ohkoing keldeo with a bit of residual damage (this is all assuming no life orb, with lo it's a sure ohko on keldeo), which is more useful than some might think. destiny bond, on the other hand, is more reliable but forces you to sacrifice gengar in exchange for tentacruel. timed correctly, it can turn the benefit of a rain-boosted scald 2hko into a detriment by catching tentacruel off-guard and taking it down along with gengar, making sure hazards stay put for the duration of the match. oftentimes it's been a game-changer for me, turning what looked like a negative matchup impossible to overcome into an advantageous situation. so just to be clear, gengar isn't completely useless against tentacruel in the rain. it can always have a trick or two up its sleeves.
  10. alexwolf

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    Jolteon is really weak without Thunder, so it really depepends on rain to function. When was the last time you saw a Jolteon outside of a rain team? Also, i know that Ferro would still be plenty viable in a Drizzle-less meta, i just mentioned him to show you how one can predict some obvious changes from one meta to another.

    As to what i said before, just by taking a quick look at the 4th gen OU you can see how many OU Pokemon were hurt enough to become barely unviable or coimpletely unviable due to Drizzle. Here is the list, for reference: http://www.smogon.com/dp/tiers/ou

    Out of those only Swampert and maybe Togekiss are Pokemon that are rarely seens and have little viability due to rain, as both are slow, gain not benefit from rain, and struggle to take two rain-boosted Water-attacks. Any other Pokemon on this list, such as Aerodactly, Dusknoir, Umbreon, Suicune, Metagross, and Flygon, that are barely viable or not viable at all, all suffered this loss of viability in the transition of 4th gen to 5th for reasons not related to Drizzle, or at least for main reasons not related to Drizzle. So as you see i took some data i had, and based on some big changes we experienced between the two gens i made some conclusions about which Pokemon lost their viability due to Drizzle. And those Pokemon were very few.

    Of 'course everything we say about a hypothetic Drizzle-less meta is an hypothesis, but if the base of this hypothesis is well built and supported then the hypothesis is very possible and not far-fethced at all. In the end, if both sides (pro-band and ani-ban) base their arguments on two hypothetical scenarios, and the hypothesis that Drizzle increases diversity in OU is more well supported than the hypothesis that Drizzle limits diverstity in OU, i don't see the need to say that every hypothesis can be wrong. Of 'course it can, but if both sides need to make hypothoses to prove some points, what's the point of accusing theorymoning as a techinique? And not baseless theorymoning, but theorymoning that is based on a lot of facts and playtesting expereince on a 2 years old metagame.

    The only way that Drizzle was the problem is if it can be proven that Drizzle is a broken ability. And for an ability to be broken it must break the majority of the Pokemon that benefit from it, which is clearly not the case with Drizzle.

    Yeah this is an option that we could have explored, but is this case really relevant to what we are discussing here? The main subject of discussion here is whether rain nees to be banned or not, and by banning the broken swift swimmers individually instead of making the combo ban this issue remains unaffacted. I would like to talk about this another time, but it seems irrelevant to the discussion. In the end, the heads of the OU tiering decided that it is better to ban nothing instead of banning 3-4 Pokemon to keep some lesser swift swimmers around.

    Ok i can see what you are saying, and this is definitely something to think about. But still, if Drizzle doesn't break the majority of the Pokemon that it directly affects, i can't see how it's the abilitiy's fault and not the Pokemon's. If 20 Pokemon relevant in OU had Speed Boost and only 5 of them were broken with it, would we ban Speed Bosst or the Pokemon?

    It doesn't matter how many Pokemon are affected, what matters is how many Pokemon are viable in OU. While some Pokemon lost their OU status partially due to Drizzle, those Pokemon got replace by other Pokemon, so in the end nothing changed in terms of numbers. In order to see if diversity was increased or not in 5th gen, you need to see the usage statistics (to see how centralized OU is) as well as the number of OU viable Pokemon. And both of those things imply bigger diversity in 5th gen than in 4th gen, disproving the mindset that Drizzle limits diversity.

    On the other hand, there is no evidence to support that Drizzle limits diversity in OU making claims such as this ''The versatility you say Drizzle promotes barely even exists, alex, because it is cancelled out by the loss in usage of huge numbers of other Pokemon'' baseles and most probably false. This huge loss of Pokemon that you speak of does not exist, and is something made up to blame Drizzle for the metagame that we have and some people don't like.

    Finally, not only Pokemon that are relatively unused would suffer from a Drizzle ban. I have mentioned the Pokemon that could potentially lose their viability, or most of it, in OU before, and such Pokemon are Toxicroak, Tornadus, Gastrodon, Amoonguss, and more. And not only those, as sun-based Pokemon would lose their viability as well, such as Venusaur, Sawsbuck, Dugtrio, etc.
  11. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs

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    Hmm...let me ask you an interesting conundrum. If we banned Drizzle, are we really nerfing these Pokemon? Drizzle isn't some inherent characteristic that we are removing, but an external boost. Are we really nerfing them or un-boosting? Just something I thought of a little while ago.

    But to answer your question, this still becomes a matter of whether or not Drizzle and the playstyles it creates (or the Pokemon it affects) are broken. That should be the focus of the whole discussion. If we "nerf" those Pokemon in the process of removing a potentially broken aspect of the metagame (hypothetically, of course), would that not be the proper course of action?

    Well, I personally have seen more than enough Jolteon outside of Rain, but that's anecdotal evidence. What we need is hard numbers. The moveset stats for the last few months are down, but I was able to pull up the ones from January and found that only about 34% of Jolteon ran Thunder. Assuming the vast majority of these are in conjunction with Rain, that's just about a third that actually were on Rain teams. Nearly twice as many ran Thunderbolt. Sure Jolteon might take a small hit from such a thing, but if people want to use the good qualities of Jolteon (speed, Volt Absorb, etc.), they can do it without Thunder.

    Swampert actually does benefit from Rain due to a boosted Water STAB, but you're talking about 4th Gen OU now, which is vastly different from 5th Gen. Out of all the Pokemon in OU right now, around 30 are either 5th Gen Pokemon, were Ubers in 4th Gen, or have new traits that cause them to play or perform differently from how they did in the past (that number might be a little different depending on how strictly you judge them by that criteria). That judgement also does not take into account the new Pokemon / former Ubers / upgraded Pokemon in lower tiers that were never an issue in 4th Gen OU, as well as those that did exist in 4th Gen that might have a new-found niche due to 5th Gen changes. There are far too many factors that you haven't taken into account yet.

    Theorymonning is fine, even necessary at times, and usually it's based upon deductive reasoning, which is good. Just don't try to use it as concrete evidence or present it as some sort of infallible proof.

    Not necessarily. Drizzle isn't just about one Pokemon or two, it affects entire teams. Some of the central arguments about Drizzle are focused around how it makes for very powerful team styles (which is the center of arguments about team matchup, difficulty in checking Rain teams, etc.). It's similar to Baton Pass, which was suspected at one point. It wasn't that it broke all of its members, but that it formed a team archetype that was very powerful in the right hands and potentially broken.

    That's the thing, though. You can't just throw a Speed Boost user on your team and suddenly most or all of your team benefits from it (bar Baton Pass, but you get what I mean). Drizzle is team support, Speed Boost is not.
  12. Barbeller

    Barbeller

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    However the problem is not rooted only in the pokemon that would 'lost out on their salary'. There is also a problem in those that can't get a salary a good salary because others are taking up all of the employers money. So basically, they're preventing the others from getting their pay, similar to how rain prevents other pokemon from being viable.

    If the employer (smogon) can get a wider range of skills in his workforce (the metagame), then that is generally considered better. We're looking at a situation where an employer could keep his current employee, who gets a large salary - or the employer could fire that person and try and get some less skilled workers on lower salaries, and hope that their combined skills will make up for the original employee. The third option, which is similar to what we are currently doing with rain, is to lower the salary of this high paid employee, and use the money to try and employ some others.

    This is a similar situation that we are in with rain, we just have to decide whether a rainy metagame is better than a rainless metagame. I am inclined to believe that we have gone down the 'nerf rain' path for all of this generation, and that changing path now would be very messy. However, I think that as soon as we get a new path with XY, then we should not make the same wrong turns we did this generation. Assuming rain remains broken, we should ban it quickly. The people that want to play weather wars can hang around in BW2.
  13. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Are you tired of the popular Keldeo+Landorus+Tyranitar trio ruining your day?
    This is the answer to your problems:

    Mantine @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 244 Spd / 252 SAtk / 16 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Agility/Tailwind
    - Rain Dance
    - Hydro Pump
    - Air Slash

    No, I'm not kidding.
    This Mantine outspeeds up base 108 speed pokemon with a Choice Scarf after Agility/Tailwind and has enough juice to outright OHKO Tyranitar (factoring SR) and Landorus in the rain, as well as 2HKOing Keldeo with Air Slash while the pony can't do anything in return unless it runs HP Electric.

    You can safely switch on choiced Keldeo (ideally on a water move so you can recover HP with Water Absorb) or Sheer Force Landorus, use Agility or Tailwind and if you predict a Tyranitar switch-in use Rain Dance.
    Agility is the prefered option since Tailwind can be easily stalled out.

    Water Absorb is required if you have Drizzletoed in your team, but if you don't you can drop Agility/Tailwind and use Swift Swim instead, making Mantine's job much easier!
    In that case you could run Ice Beam, which OHKOs Garchomp, Salamence and Thundurus-T (SR is required for this one).

    Expert Belt is the prefered item since you'll need to abuse SE attacks on the targets you want to cover, though Life Orb is an option. Just watch out for the residual damage, especially if SR is on the field.

    Scarf Jolteon forces Mantine out so make sure to have a plan for it.
  14. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Actually, Specs Keldeo 2HKOs with Secret Sword, and Tyranitar at worst 2HKOs with Stone Edge

    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 139-164 (50.54 - 59.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    4 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 150-177 (54.54 - 64.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    CB Tyranitar does something silly like 180% with Stone Edge. Mantine absolutely shuts down Sheer Force Landorus (Focus Blast is a 3HKO), but I would hesitate to say that Mantine shuts down the entire core.
  15. Meru

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    I've noticed this continually happening in this thread and just want to clarify something about posting in regards to countering Keldeo. I really don't think CBtar's attacks should come into the argument anywhere except for the word Pursuit. People keep mentioning CBtar's Stone Edge 2HKOs Amoonguss and Tentacruel but what's to stop them from switching out?
  16. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Electivire postulated that set as an answer to the entire trio, not JUST Keldeo, but you make a good point and I'll try and keep that in mind in the future.
  17. George Eliot

    George Eliot

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    Lol. Just do what I've been doing and use a SpDef-leaning Gyarados. Only problem is it practically needs Wish Rachi and a spinner. Physically defensive Latias is a good option too.
  18. ciaranroy

    ciaranroy

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    I've been seeing a lot of sand recently. I've barely seen any rain or sun at all. Pretty much every sand team I've seen has Tyranitar instead of Hippowdon, and are offensive oriented and feature Keldeo or Landorus. I just find it interesting that rain has dropped in popularity so much. I guess that's to be expected now that Tornadus-T and Genesect are banned, but I feel that it's seen a dramatic drop in popularity.
  19. Lavos Spawn

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    really? i would expect rain to be the most prevalent playstyle on the ladder seeing as it's the easiest sort of team to build and the simplest style to play with. i think you're wrong in your perception that rain has seen a "dramatic drop" in usage, since a) the usage stats say otherwise, and b) rain's the strongest thing out there right now so why would it suddenly see a popularity drop? maybe you need to ladder more. i'm also surprised you've seen very little sun, because again the usage stats say sun's still pretty prevalent and there's no reason why sun would drop in usage either. they're the two most abusable strategies in the current metagame, and you're telling me people are failing to abuse them? i find that hard to believe. tornadus-t being banned hasn't stopped rain so far, and genesect helped sand and sun just as much, if not more than it helped rain, so those points aren't valid reasons why rain would theoretically be used less. still, your experience is interesting to say the very least. i'm surprised in the perceived prevalence of tyranitar as opposed to hippowdon, since i've been rather firmly convinced that in the current metagame, hippo is way better, but that's a matter of personal preference (though there are statistics backing up both positions). keldeo and landorus are no surprise at all, since they're the first and second offensive threats that come to mind when any adequate player is teambuilding nowadays. i'd be interested to hear how often you came across landorus-t, since if people aren't using hippowdon that implies to me that they're using lando-t as a substitute ground-type physical wall.
  20. ciaranroy

    ciaranroy

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    I just had a three hour session and didn't see Hippowdon or Landorus-T once. It could be because I'm only about 1600 on the ladder, and they are seen much more on battlers that are much better than me. I only saw three sun teams, and about ten rain. Most teams were either sand or weatherless, mostly offensive.
  21. ShootingStarmie

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    I'd say the teams you mostly see on the ladder are weatherless at around 1600, mainly because you're being paired up with non serious battlers (using Pokemon they like instead of Pokemon that are actually good). Generally Politoed, Ninetales, Tyranitar, Hippodown, and Abomasnow aren't fan favorites, and genrally aren't used as much as say Blastiose. Take a look at the "1337" (1850) stats, and you'll see a much clearer picture of how rain dominates this metagame. Once you get into the 1850's, you'll rarely see a mono posion team, which is commonly seen low on the ladder, which effects the usage stats (obviously).
  22. vyomov

    vyomov

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    I myself play weatherless(am REALLY low on the ladder) but play Trick Room, which I believe has potential.
    Metagross is the defining difference between most other Trick Room teams and mine, which I think can make the difference.
    So what are your opinions on the viability of Trick room considering the rat-race for the fastest pokemon and the overwhelming majority trying to outspeed?
  23. ShootingStarmie

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    Trick Room has and is a very un common strategy. And for a good reason. It just isn't that good. Trick Room just doesn't last long enough to actually abuse. Metagross is a cool option I guess in Trick Room, but that's a really really small niche for Metagross, as it's generally outclassed offensively by Scizor, and defensively by Jirachi.

    Reuniclus and Conkeldurr are argubly the best Trick Room sweepers, but if you take a look at the latest usage stats, you'll see that they are close to drop to UU.

    Trick Room just isn't that good. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use it if you want to, but don't expect too many wins.
  24. ZandgaiaX

    ZandgaiaX

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    If you want trick room, Reuniclus is very good as a solo-user of it. The little guy is such an anti-meta at the moment, magic guard + trick room is just reason enough to at least try it I'd say.

    For an entire team based around it, I'm not sure. It seems out of place, heck it wasn't even that work-able in Gen 4.
  25. Tassa

    Tassa

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    Politoed is used according to stats in around 20% of team. Weatherless or Sand are something like 70% : it's normal to see more of them than rain, and random doesn't help.

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