As long as Breloom is packing a choice band, Dragonite is 2HKO'd by Low Sweep as long as Stealth Rock is up (that is, unless dragonite is a bulky variant with max HP)...so really, Dragonite isn't a reliable counter to breloom if it's offensive DD or Choice Band. Meanwhile, even with a Choice Band, Dragonite is not going to OHKO Breloom without prior damage (max 80% damage from Choice Band Extremespeed)
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
Nope. I'm of the firm belief that the Speed stat reflects reaction speed, not maxmimum velocity. Pidgeot obviously needs some time to accelerate, while speedsters like Electrode and Jolteon have got really awesome reflexes, allowing them to strike faster than their opponent.
Trying to keep on topic here, is there any room for Gothitelle in this metagame? It's no Chandelure, but it's got Shadow Tag and the defenses to survive resisted Choiced hits (like some weak Fighting moves) or simply Trick over a Choice item while the opponent boosts. Then it could potentially set up to +6/+6, Trick Room, and sweep... or something.
I guess Chandelure is a little more dangerous with that strategy, but until that is released, it could be cute to see Gothitelle try.
Dark Fallen Angel
FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
I was imagining a set with Shadow Tag Gothitelle that used Rest as recovery and that was going to setup on choice-locked resisted or weak neutral special attacks. But I am pretty sure that without reliable recovery, Gothitelle will be hard to use on OU even with Shadow Tag. Dugtrio is still the better trapper even if it can only trap grounded things, not to mention that Gothitelle would be outclassed as soon as Shadow Tag Chandelure was released. However, I am sure that Gothitelle will rise from NU, but not to OU.
Gothitelle is kind of slow, even with a scarf she's not really outspeeding any +1 Spe pokemon. Not only will she have trouble setting up, but she will also have trouble sweeping. She lacks reliable recovery and lacks coverage with only two moves. She will always sit at that sub par 65 speed, allowing pokemon like CB Terrakion come in and revenge kill, wasting all of your efforts. She is really outclassed by the other three main CM'ers of the tier- Keldeo, Latias, and Espeon- all who have higher attacking stats and higher speed. She might see some use, but probably not very much.
Gothitelle's best bet will probably be to run a Choice Scarf. It would basically be like a much weaker Scarf Magnezone except it can trap everything instead of just Steels and would be a bit faster, outspeeding Tornadus-T. Anything other set would be outsped and killed quickly thanks to Gothitelle's average bulk.
Even as a trapper, Gothitelle isn't that viable. Psychic is a horrible type to be choice locked into, and base 95 Special Attack isn't scaring anything. She has coverage issues too, seeing as she doesn't even get Focus Blast (but gets two other Fighting-type TMs... curse you, Trollfreak).
Dark Fallen Angel
FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Problem is that Choice Scarf doesn't boost offenses. Gothitelle would not be able to revenge kill unless the opponent is at low health. Even with Choice Scarf, Gothitelle isn't a viable trapper at all, and you should only be using this ability to gain free turns or setup on a wall.
Alas, Gothitelle gets Taunt. Maybe she can be a viable wallbreaker? Because with 65 speed and Taunt, I was imagining that she can be used to trap and stall threats like Blissey. With a combination of Toxic and Taunt, you can prevent Blissey from recovering and using Heal Bell, at same time that her only hope is using Seismic Toss. But with such low HP and defenses...
If Gothitelle is able to come in on something that can't touch it, like blissey. Then it could still possibly work. with a max hp max defense calm mind build much like the one already on site (http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/gothitelle) it could potentially get up to +6. but even in this rare scenario the fact is bliss can still hit it with seismic toss. In almost every situation i can think of gothitelle is just plain outclassed. Scizor beats it as a revenge killer, and dugtrio and magnezone can cover most things as trappers. Gothitelle doesn't have the access to reliable recovery or attacking prowess it needs to be a viable revenger, trapper, or in general just a poke that can set up. Gothitelle is destined to stay NU.
tough to say if it'll still be NU considering how downright powerful shadow tag is; it gives gothitelle a big offensive advantage over many other psychics (and NU is a tier with a ton of bulky psychics in it because they all got booted out of the higher tiers by strong pursuits lol). but i doubt gothitelle is gonna be terrorizing UU any time soon, never mind OU. all the salient details on why it won't be making a tier leap have already been noted itt
I'm glad to finally see a drop in that wretched Volt-Turn... To an extent a few more checks /counters rise up. Unless its just the teams I've encountered on PO, since all the hassle with PS and the Smogon server I might be wrong.
Oh don't get me wrong, I know Gothitelle isn't even remotely viable, and I said as much. But using Shadow Tag to set up is worse than Choice sets IMO. The reason it works on Chandy is because Ghost/Fire gives it some good resistances and immunities it can abuse to set up on things (notably, Chandelure has an immunity to Seismic Toss, so Blissey is total setup bait). Pure Psychic doesn't have that going for it, so any attempt to set up multiple boosts would probably end in death.
Also, the Toxic/Taunt strategy would still lose to Blissey because Seismic Toss would do more damage than you could do back. You could run Rest to negate that, but then you'd basically only be good for beating the pink blobs, and other things already do that better.
That said, since it's pretty much been established that Gothitelle isn't good let's stop talking about her. Has anyone tried out Stoutland much? I haven't tested it extensively, but from what I've used of it he's a monster. With sand up, he can demolish Rain teams and Politoed can't switch into Return more than once.
Stoutland is everywhere -__- He got seriously popularised a couple of months ago (the bulky Hippowdon + Stoutland archetype that me and about 20 other people were running) and now half the people who use Sand have him (which makes sense, considering he easily beats Mamoswine / Tornadus / Thundurus / Keldeo).
I've never used Stoutland for his mere looks... His ability is the only thing that makes him respectable.
^ this being said, stoutland is a viable sand rush user, and that's a rare rare position in OU right now. sandslash has so much less bulk and power, so it has to rely on setting up with sd (difficult because of how easily you're killed) to hit like stoutland. sandslash does have rapid spin in its favor, but it's no excadrill >_> stoutland isn't great but sand rush gives it a place. sucks though that 252+ stoutland in sand is still outsped by scarf terrakion lol. BY ONE POINT, of all things
besides there are quite a few other mons in OU where the only thing going for them is ability *cough ninetales cough politoed* =P
besides there are quite a few other mons in OU where the only thing going for them is ability *cough ninetales cough politoed* =P
Curiously, I haven't seen Stoutland much these days. I see mainly genies and volt turn and rain. He and Sandslash are probably in 1/100 teams.
Techniloom I have also not seen much of. Most Looms I bump into are poison heal variants with BU, and don't get me wrong it's a great set but Techniloom seems better.
VoltTurn is still as popular as ever.
lmitchell0012
Wi-Fi Blacklisted
As far as countering tornadus is concerned (either form), could a specially defensive lanturn work?? He gets grass knot, but lanturn is a lightweight water type, right??
Lots of people try it, and Lanturn can certainly take hits, but it's not particularly effective, since it lacks reliable recovery. Wish support could remedy that, but at that point, why not just use Jirachi?
I actually run a very weird Baton Pass/Transform set with Rock Polish and Taunt. max HP and Speed Timid nature i think. If i can take a hit, I'll double my speed and then BP. If I'm in trouble, Transform or switch out. Setting up? Taunt. Yes, I am fully aware I am Taunt bait. That is why I can just switch out to something that will not get hurt by Taunt.
Mew is one of three pokemon who got Reflect Type, why not use it over Transform? It is fantastic for ruining scizor and ferro and lets you set up in their face with a great typing.
Obviously Transform Mew is pretty cool too... just can't see that being particularly reliable.
lmitchell0012
Wi-Fi Blacklisted
Reflect type is an interesting move, but why bother using it on scizor or ferrothorn when you can just blast them with a flamethrower?? It seems like a waste of time and a moveslot.
Because once you gain their typing you wall them to hell and can proceed to set up. It's also becoming the norm to see ferrothorn and scizor on rain teams, which often means your opponent probably isn't carrying any stab fire moves. It's situational at best but if your opponent isn't prepared it can definitely work out well.
I agree. If your goal is to BP speed boosts, then you don't want to be changing your whole movepool+stats just to counter one pokemon. Reflect type is probably a better option.
Reflect type is also a very useful tool on Latias- especially the CM set. Two of the most common Latias checks are no longer problems after one RT. Watch out for Blissey/Chansey however, they're still the blobs they used to be.
Latias @ Leftovers
252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
~Calm Mind
~Dragon Pulse
~Substitute / Reflect type
~Recover / Reflect type
Just note that her Dragon Pulse becomes much less powerful after loss of STAB boost. Still, the benefits are way better than the risks.
I should note that Chansey and Blissey aren't entirely beat by sub versions of Latias, remember that Latias does not get 101 subs at all, so it can become a mind can between using sub to avoid toxic and calm minding or recovering. With the right prediction the they can beat it, I have done it myself a few times on my good days.
Refresh Latias doesn't have to worry about Toxic, allowing it to CM&Recover as pleased. Sub Latias only avoids being trapped Tyranitar and Scizor. If you run Psyshock>Dragon Pulse the Blobs will be easily OHKOed.
but what monoattacking latias would ever run psyshock? o_O i could see it happening in something like cm/recover/dpulse/psyshock, but if running refresh or sub, there's no room to run a stab to which mons are immune. the whole point of mono-attacking dragons, and the reason they work, is that you hit so many things neutrally that you can get away with having no coverage moves whatsoever. running psychic as your only attack type extends the list of counters dramatically. if a dark type comes in and your only attack is psyshock, out you go. that's not a problem with dragon pulse