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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.
LO HP water > techno blast. Even if you don't want the recoil, just pack an expert belt.
HP Water with Splash Plate is precisely the same as Techno Blast with Douse Drive, missing out on only a single point of power.
And when such an obviously terrible option is just as good, or better due to Techno Blast's shit PP, you can see how abysmal Techno Blast is, no matter what.
I think the only reason to even use Techno Blast is if you're using HP Ground as well. I don't know why you'd ever need both Water and Ground coverage (u-turn / water tech blast / hp ground / flamethrower is pretty ass), but that seems to be the only situation where using hp water isnt better.
techno blast sucks guys
erm i'd love it if this was true but i have never seen a full baton pass team that falls to strategies like this so easily. how many smeargle leads have you dealt with? spore to open with; anybody that sees the team will know it's bp right away and lead with a phazer if they have one so smeargle shuts it down. takes the free switch and ingrains. suddenly the whole team is phaze proof. i run a team with THREE phazers on it (full stall 8D) and still lose because i have yet to find a good perish song user (and if the opp is smart they'll predict the perish song and BP to mr mime). the closest i've ever gotten to beating full BP was sacking my skarmory into the spore and then CMing to all hell with latias. he passed amnesia boosts to his scizor, sded up and still kicked my ass
yeah fuck BP. you're gonna have to try hard if you want to convince me that it's broken (no i do not believe BP should be banned... and it would be very hard to ban the concept of a BP team without hurting fair uses of the move baton pass, such as on CM pivot espeon), but i still hate it
The problem with facing Baton Pass or even playing with Baton Pass is that the outcome is generally decided within the first few turns. If the BP user manages to get a few boosts up, it's essentially over. If the non-BP user can get hazards and prevent too many boosts, it's also over. After the first 10 or so turns you can't really beat Baton Pass outside of a really lucky sequence of crits or multi-hit attacks or surprise phazing or whatever.
I hate facing BP teams with a passion, though, which is why I always try to fit Haze onto my team somehow. It generally ends up as the open fourth moveslot on my Politoed or Tentacruel. If I don't have Haze, I try for Perish Song, usually on Celebi (maybe I should try Lapras lol). I always attempt to leave myself a way to beat BP teams even if I screw up and make the wrong plays in the first few turns. You can never be too careful with Baton Pass.
sadly none of the standard stat-clearing moves (haze, clear smog) cut through sub, and most of the standard users are bulky mons lacking in punch, so they can't break a sub repeatedly if they have type disadvantage. it's kind of dumb imo how haze doesn't pass through sub where as clear smog doesn't but i guess that's how it is >_> it feels like the comparison between roar and dragon tail, yknow? one has the reward of being untauntable, so surely the other one should break through sub? would be pretty damn nice, at least.
EDIT: awkward, veekun's page for haze doesn't mark the ignore sub flag as on... nice to know haze hits through subs, that's a bloody relief
usually when i go against BP i don't have perish song in my team because i have yet to find a user; that's why i brought up mismagius a few pages ago (i consider it the only real counter to BP - especially because many players running full BP are not smart enough to run mr mime) so my strategy is to pressure smeargle out before it can ingrain. lemme tell you, it doesn't usually work, because any player running a full BP smeargle lead is gonna be smart enough to ingrain asap. my team being full stall, i have more than enough phazers, so if i can stop the ingrain, the only threat is espeon, whom latias can beat one on one under reasonable circumstances. maybe i should run a mon with vital spirit/insomnia so smeargle can't spore me 8D too bad there are no good users D8
So isnt anyone too having some problems with Rock Polish or SUB special LAndorus? 252 speed/252 sattack jolly landorus with Hp ice, earth power focus blast just wrecks my day. It is a great coverage and few things other than blobs can wall it ok. The sub variant is just a pain, you switch in a scarfer/wall to take a hit/u-turn/EQ, it subs, and you need to sack something to its ridiculously powerfull Sheer Force LO earth power.
Haze actually does hit through Sub. I know this from personal experience when a gimmick NU team I used to run was completely thwarted by haze Wartortle screwing up my Recycle Starf Gothitelle sweep. In addition, it isn't on the list of moves blocked by Substitute on Smogon or Veekun.
Yeah I've been running one with Psychic over Focus Blast (that miss chance can spell disaster). After one Rock Polish I believe it takes out all of your standard sun team single-handedly. And Earth Power is just a great move to spam in general. He's a great cleaning sweeper.
hmm strange, i checked the move page for haze on veekun and the "ignore substitute" flag was not on. that's my bad then
as for RP landorus, it's one of those mons that i wish there was more of, actually, because my stall team can handle it easily. latias eats its HP ice all day, max like 47% (can switch in on one, take a second one, heal up, and then start cming) and blobs wall it as well, although they take a while to kill it (focus blast will be easily stalled out though and that's the only way landorus will even come close to hurting them). that means i can easily go to chansey, pass myself a wish or two, then wish into latias on the focus blast and start boosting. one nice thing about the metagame becoming more offensive is that speed boosting sweepers with precise, but underpowered coverage become more popular. such mons tend to have great power against offensive teams, especially if their coverage is in the right places, because they can boost speed and become very difficult to check. however they lack the sheer punch to break through walls and can only really shine against frail offensive threats... which means they're easy to counter with standard defensive mons, and so stall has a good time against them. RP landorus is of course a perfect example of such a mon, because it has no satk boosting moves with which to pound through stall, and a solid-but-not-terrifying satk stat.
i'm much more concerned with the old bw1 landorus-I sets because sand-backed edgequake can actually seriously injure my team and latias cannot come in on a uturn (although my defensive breloom can handle it okay; with heavy sdef investment breloom never be 2hkoed by uninvested hp ice from a standard scarf sandforce lando-I), but those sets are not as strong in the modern metagame as a whole, especially since garchomp will be coming back in some form or another and it presents big competition as a scarfer. as arcticblast noted somewhere, mix landorus sucks, so if i see landorus-I i can generally find out quickly if it's physical or special, and if it's special, i just go "phew"
and with rp landorus psychic vs focus blast... it's an open question; i forget which things focus blast hits harder than psychic, but there are definitely more of those than vice versa. psychic has the good accuracy going for it though, and packs superb power against venusaur (better base power, plus a sheer force boost, means LO psychic always KOs where as HP ice is max 70%ish)
EDIT: i thought it was obvious techno blast sucked unless you can't run hp water because your religion prevents it or something
Magnezone IS an actual Pokemon....
I use it because I have Kingdra in my team and I need Magnezone to remove Ferrothorn before my Kingdra can sweep. So it has its uses.
Honey, Magnezone is not as great as he's made out to be at killing Ferrothorn. I assume, since you're running Kingdra, you want it to abuse your opponent's rain? Provided you can actually catch Ferrothorn (most good players won't let you):
252 SpAtk Magnezone (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Fire vs 252 HP/168 SpDef Ferrothorn (+SpDef) : 32.95% - 39.77% (3-4 hits to KO)
You're going to get seeded when you come in, Protect stalled, and Ferrothorn is going to set up a few layers of Spikes before you manage to kill it. So you've let Ferrothorn sap most of your Magnezone's strength away and allowed it to set up Spikes. That's a pretty fair trade for it's life. You could run a much more useful Pokémon that defeats Ferrothorn and also contributes in more ways to your team.
I like Magnezone a lot, but he's quite overrated as a trapper. He's obvious, slow, and easy to play around.
Magnezone needs to be played in an non obvious way for it to be effective. If your're facing a decent enough player he will probably catch on to your Magnezone switch when he brings in his Skarmory on something like Haxorus. That's why usually I will double switch with Magnezone to make sure I manage to trap those pesky steel types and manage to avoid the Leech Seed. Magnezone is not a bad Pokemon, but it only has a few uses. It's not weak either, but it can only be used with specific Pokes and teams to be effective.
Magnezone can run sub though to block leech seed, so ferrothorn's only chance to seed is if it correctly predicts magnezone's switch-in. Sure, ferro might get spikes up, but it'll give its life to so and if the enemy has a spinner it'll have been a wasted effort. Magnezone performs admirably against ferro, forry, scizor (unless it switches into superpower, but again, prediction), skarm, and even genesect (bait gene into choice-locking itself into ice beam or tbolt). It has a useful niche, but not necessarily one that's worth a teamslot IMO.
When Magnezone's primary role is to trap and kill Ferrothorn, it's much easier to predict when it's coming in than it is for Magnezone to predict when Ferrothorn will stay in. Forretress and Scizor generally know what's going on as well. Forry can run EQ and many run Volt Switch now. Scizor can only be caught through excellent prediction (again, the Scizor player has the easier prediction here) or if you absolutely force him to Bullet Punch (i.e. +2 Terrakion is on the field). Scizor's Superpower and ability to U-turn away make Magnezone's job very difficult against good players.
Of course Magnezone can be played well, and he can be very, very effective. However, it's very difficult and not always best to rely on him as your end-all be-all solution to steels.
Magnezone is certainly interesting, and in comparison with BW1 I have seen very little Magnezone usage. I'm not sure why this is, Magnezone still does a decent job at trapping Steels but upon team preview it is fairly predictable. Magnezone's main niche in OU is to trap Steel types that stand in the way of your other sweepers such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Forretress. There's really nothing else Magnezone excels at, it has average defences but not that you'd consider running a bulky Magnezone. It's also very slow, even with a Choice Scarf you fail to outspeed some of the most common mons you would expect to revenge with Scarf Magnezone, such as Starmie and Tornadus-T. There's also the situation of when your opponent does not bring any of the aforementioned Steels. Magnezone can be a liability when there are no Steels to trap, essentially a wasted team slot. There are other Pokemon that deal with these Steels well but also perform other roles, so even when your opponent is not carrying a Forretress or Skarmory, they have some use. I guess it's also important to consider the predictability of Magnezone. It's pretty obvious when it is switching in, and it's not like it's difficult to play around. It's typing has a lot of common weaknesses and even when running a Substitute set, you have a hard time setting up with Charge Beam. The most effective Magnezone set IMO, is the Choice Specs set. I run a set with some HP investment, and it does a really nice job. It's great on heavy offense types while also doing more than just trapping Steels. A powerful and slow Volt Switch is amazing for getting your Salamence or Dragonite in safely, as Magnezone's typing has a couple of handy resistances. It's also worth noting that Specs Magnezone can actually break through Ferrothorn in Rain, being able to 2HKO. Unfortunately the same cannot be said about the Sub Charge Beam or Scarf sets, who in Rain, are used as Spikes bait. It might also be worth mentioning that the number of Steels Magnezone can trap is pretty small. It cannot beat Sub Calm Mind Jirachi or risk switching into Scarf Genesect. Skarmory has Whirlwind and Scizor can U-Turn out or even straight up Superpower. I probably wouldn't use Magnezone in this meta, there are other options to deal with Steels that don't waste a teamslot against some team archetypes, however if you are looking for something to pave the way for your sweepers then it still is a great mon to consider.
Why isn't Choice-Scarf Raikou used more? I was looking for an offensive Volt Switcher that could KO Tornadus-T 100% of the time and found Raikou. With HP Ice, Aura Sphere (Rash nature only) and Grass Knot/Thunderbolt to round out it's coverage I'm wondering why it doesn't see more use.
The I got to thinking, are there ANY pure electric types that make it in OU any more?
With the whole Zone thing, my one little bit of insight here is people saying that if they don't have steels it's a wasted team slot.
Well....if they don't have any steels, then Zone's job is already done. Your dragons are more capable of sweeping. It's probably a wasted team slot, sure, but by that point you're basically at an advantage, unless they completely counterteam you.
And there are PLENTY of Steels that Zone can trap; Gene locked on Tbolt/Ice Beam, Ferro, Forry, Skarm, Rachi, Scizor locked on Bullet Punch or Pursuit (or Superpower if you run some speed and HP Fire), etc. and you're almost bound to play against at least one of these on any particular team, and even if you don't then you're at the advantage because Zone tries to remove steels, and if your opponent's team lacks them, then Zone has done its job before the battle begins.
My 2 cents.
I think one of it's main problems is that it gets outsped by scarf Lando if you use Aura Sphere, and IMHO Scarf Lando is pretty common nowadays.
@Skore- Jolteon is the only pure electric type in OU. I used to think Jolteon was terrible and deserved to be UU (I'm still not entirely convinced it shouldn't be), but I started running a really nice Sub+Baton Pass set recently that is actually pretty cool and worth a try. It serves as a very nice check to Tornadus-T, and while it's Substitutes aren't at all impressive or hard to break, it's nice to be able to pass one to DD Salamence, RP/SD Landorus-T, etc. on an EQ or EP. It can certainly force enough switches to get a Sub up occasionally with a pretty threatening base 110 SpAtk. It makes a nice scout and decent revenge killer, so it's not dead weight if you can't pass a sub.
@Porii- Reasons why Magnezone doesn't do as well as expected against most of those mons have been presented. It loses to CM Jirachi, Scizor is very hard to catch (as is Genesect) and switching in on either of them can be deadly for Zone, Ferrothorn sets up on you in rain and likely weakens you to uselessness (the argument that you may have a spinner is invalid; you forget that your opponent isn't going to just LET you spin away their hazards - you have to take time and effort that your opponent can use against you in order to remove them), and Forry runs EQ sometimes and Volt Switch pretty often these days. You have the best bet at catching Skarmory, but iirc his usage is down quite a bit (might be utteraly wrong there, sorry if I am) and he can still Whirlwind you on the switch in, so it still comes down to really good prediction on your part. And when your strategy is obvious as a big MAGNET Pokémon, the steels are going to be pretty conservative until he's gone. I still think you can find better Pokémon to dispose of the steels in your way that always contribute to the team.
Jolteon is really the only viable pure Electric type. However, it really is a good one at that. QoR already explained the SubPass set, which many consider to be its best set at the moment, but you can't neglect its other sets. Choice Specs and Life Orb Jolteon are excellent glue Pokemon for semi-stall teams, taking out big threats like Tornadus-T, Starmie, Gengar, etc. Electric is quite a useful STAB as well, giving it both a powerful Volt Switch for scouting and a great general STAB for dishing out damage. Ground types are a little rarer now because of the perceived prevalence of Rain and the numerous Sun teams flying around, so Jolteon is even more usable. Volt Absorb makes it a decent check to Scarf Magnezone/ton (although it can't do much in return) and Scarf Thundurus-T.
As an aside, Electivire is almost viable in OU, especially with a Choice Scarf set, but is mostly just too weak, slow and frail to work. Don't say anything about Gyaravire, any player who knows Electivire's ability will be able to see that from a mile away.
Scizor isn't hard to catch, and also, iirrc a lot of Pokemon require skill to use (as small uses of intellegence easily make Mag useable). Magnezone is a good Pokemon when you play your team right. I admit that Mag isn't as great as it formally was in BW1, but Forrey does NOT run EQ -.- like ever. Its too busy running Gyro or volt-switch and rapid spin to really fit it anywhere. They V-Switch away, but it can come in if something dies, etc. With Skarm, its more shed shell you got to fear, but :lol did you seriously say it can WW you? SR + Electric move will easily dispose non-shed shell versions. And WW on switch is prediction on SKARMS part ffs, not the other way around. That would be a bold prediction, as it risks getting hit by current Pokemon srsly. Or what if it comes in after Skarm kills something, or it comes in after a WW? Your trapped then .-. Magnzone always contributes to the team, eliminating threats and also providing a volt-switch chain, which Goth and Duggy can't do. So much hate on Mag. I admit it isn't as good as it was in BW1, but its still good. your arguements are illogical. Genesect is actually easy to catch. Half the time its forced to lock itself into something like ice beam, and after it kills something (say, hippo), Mag can come in and then dispose of it so the rest of the team doesn't have to deal with it. With mad prediction skills, it can come in on an ice beam, but its much better just to let it kill a member that probably won't help in the long run and dispose of Gene. It can revenge Gene with scarf, so it isn't as hard as you said. Scizor is ALSO easy to catch, as most of the time it locks itself into BP. Admitting it sometimes u-turns like hell, but it isn't that hard to catch it, considering that U-turning on something like Latios is a huge risk, as you can get hit by HP Fire. Mag is best in general in trapping steels, and its the only pokemon who can trap and provide a volt-turn core. Such a bad rap for the poor magnet just because it got more useless in BW2, its still viable.
Electivire? Lol. It simply cannot OHKO many things even with super-effective attacks, and while it absolutely needs that speed, giving Choice Scarf to him is not a good idea, as it's main selling point is its coverage, and not being able to switch moves is fatal. It can be a monster when you baton pass Shell Smash to him; but the same can be said to many Pokémon.
It also has problems with coverage, even though its coverage is amazing, it's not perfect. Without Flamethrower/Fire Punch it fails to deal with Scizor, Forretress and Genesect, and even Ferrothorn if you lack Cross Chop. Speaking of it, without it Electivire cannot deal with Chansey and Blissey. Earthquake makes him struggle to do much to Fire, Poison and opposing Electric-types, and without HP Grass, it is stopped cold by Quagsire, Swampert and Gastrodon. The lack of Hidden Power Ice or Ice Punch makes him vulnerable to Dragon-Types, Gliscor and Landorus. Lastly, it has no options to hit Psychic and Ghost-types super-effectively; it can be trick to deal with things like Reuniclus, Dusclops and Cresselia, although only the first is OU.
The only viable pure Electric-type in OU is definitively Jolteon.
I said Electivire was ALMOST viable, not ACTUALLY viable... I just know there was an RMT a few weeks ago or something that use Scarf Electivire decently. I agree with everything you've said about it though.
I've tried a Scarf Electrode set on Showdown, and contrary to how bad that sounds it's actually performed quite well for me. It's an excellent revenge killer and can do some real work on teams as part of a Volt-Turn combination. It also functions extremely well on Rain teams with STAB Thunder hitting very hard and Volt Switch being as obnoxious to face as it is on any other Pokemon. As an added bonus, it has access to Explosion, letting it blow up in the face of opponents when you've deemed its work to be done. If it gets hit by a contact move that kills it, its Dream World ability of Aftermath deals 25% damage to whoever took it down, which sounds situational but can be very useful in late-game play. The set I used was:
Electrode @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 SAtk / 240 Spd / 16 Atk
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
EDIT: Made EV spread better.