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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    Scizor isn't hard to catch, and also, iirrc a lot of Pokemon require skill to use (as small uses of intellegence easily make Mag useable). Magnezone is a good Pokemon when you play your team right. I admit that Mag isn't as great as it formally was in BW1, but Forrey does NOT run EQ -.- like ever. Its too busy running Gyro or volt-switch and rapid spin to really fit it anywhere. They V-Switch away, but it can come in if something dies, etc. With Skarm, its more shed shell you got to fear, but :lol did you seriously say it can WW you? SR + Electric move will easily dispose non-shed shell versions. And WW on switch is prediction on SKARMS part ffs, not the other way around. That would be a bold prediction, as it risks getting hit by current Pokemon srsly. Or what if it comes in after Skarm kills something, or it comes in after a WW? Your trapped then .-. Magnzone always contributes to the team, eliminating threats and also providing a volt-switch chain, which Goth and Duggy can't do. So much hate on Mag. I admit it isn't as good as it was in BW1, but its still good. your arguements are illogical. Genesect is actually easy to catch. Half the time its forced to lock itself into something like ice beam, and after it kills something (say, hippo), Mag can come in and then dispose of it so the rest of the team doesn't have to deal with it. With mad prediction skills, it can come in on an ice beam, but its much better just to let it kill a member that probably won't help in the long run and dispose of Gene. It can revenge Gene with scarf, so it isn't as hard as you said. Scizor is ALSO easy to catch, as most of the time it locks itself into BP. Admitting it sometimes u-turns like hell, but it isn't that hard to catch it, considering that U-turning on something like Latios is a huge risk, as you can get hit by HP Fire. Mag is best in general in trapping steels, and its the only pokemon who can trap and provide a volt-turn core. Such a bad rap for the poor magnet just because it got more useless in BW2, its still viable.
  2. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Electivire? Lol. It simply cannot OHKO many things even with super-effective attacks, and while it absolutely needs that speed, giving Choice Scarf to him is not a good idea, as it's main selling point is its coverage, and not being able to switch moves is fatal. It can be a monster when you baton pass Shell Smash to him; but the same can be said to many Pokémon.

    It also has problems with coverage, even though its coverage is amazing, it's not perfect. Without Flamethrower/Fire Punch it fails to deal with Scizor, Forretress and Genesect, and even Ferrothorn if you lack Cross Chop. Speaking of it, without it Electivire cannot deal with Chansey and Blissey. Earthquake makes him struggle to do much to Fire, Poison and opposing Electric-types, and without HP Grass, it is stopped cold by Quagsire, Swampert and Gastrodon. The lack of Hidden Power Ice or Ice Punch makes him vulnerable to Dragon-Types, Gliscor and Landorus. Lastly, it has no options to hit Psychic and Ghost-types super-effectively; it can be trick to deal with things like Reuniclus, Dusclops and Cresselia, although only the first is OU.

    The only viable pure Electric-type in OU is definitively Jolteon.
  3. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast @manu 11: Arcticblast joined, gg all
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    I said Electivire was ALMOST viable, not ACTUALLY viable... I just know there was an RMT a few weeks ago or something that use Scarf Electivire decently. I agree with everything you've said about it though.
  4. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    I've tried a Scarf Electrode set on Showdown, and contrary to how bad that sounds it's actually performed quite well for me. It's an excellent revenge killer and can do some real work on teams as part of a Volt-Turn combination. It also functions extremely well on Rain teams with STAB Thunder hitting very hard and Volt Switch being as obnoxious to face as it is on any other Pokemon. As an added bonus, it has access to Explosion, letting it blow up in the face of opponents when you've deemed its work to be done. If it gets hit by a contact move that kills it, its Dream World ability of Aftermath deals 25% damage to whoever took it down, which sounds situational but can be very useful in late-game play. The set I used was:
    [​IMG]
    Electrode @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Aftermath
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 240 Spd / 16 Atk
    Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunder
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Explosion

    EDIT: Made EV spread better.
  5. Queen of Randoms

    Queen of Randoms I'm So Crown
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    You can't just say Scizor isn't hard to catch. Provide any reason why it's easier for Mag to catch Scizor than it is for Scizor to play around Mag.

    "Coming in when something dies" is extremely rare; how often does Forretress kill things?

    Also, I mentioned it doing best against Skarm, so not really understanding why you're freaking over it. And Magnezone is an obvious switch in, so it's questionable who has more of the burden of prediction in that scenario. Furthermore, Skarmory is a wall. "Risking taking a hit" shouldn't be that much of a big deal. If it's in on something that threatens it, it's obviously switching out.

    Genesect is not easy to catch, and your example is terrible. Risking leaving Hippowdon in on Genesect is a very questionable play. I'm not sure why you're letting your Hippowdon die like that. You're basically telling me that you have to waste two team slots to handle Genesect; one Pokémon must be sacked, and the other slot is Magnezone, who is slow and probably dead weight after it has kiled the Genesect (who again, you are not guaranteed to catch when it has U-turn and know you have Mag in the wings).

    I said it had its uses, but honestly it's just not that threatening. Not quite understanding how you 1) feel justified in speaking as though I bashed Magnezone with no reason 2) fail to see the shortcomings of your arguments seeing as they have been presented already. Don't speak as though you're 100% right when there are very glaring flaws in what you say.
  6. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Basically, Magnezone isn't a very good Pokemon. It can trap Steels, but it's still not a very good Pokemon. Its good on Dragmag teams, but on average it's not a very good Pokemon.

    It's a simple concept.
  7. TDL

    TDL

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    I don't see much point to Electrode when Jolteon exists. Higher Sp.Atk, almost the same movepool (only notable thing is electrode has explosion which i guess is cute to give a safe switch for another mon, but it's hilariously weak), and a slightly lower speed (130 vs 140, both of which outrun all of unboosted OU). Jolteon also has a better ability. Giving Electrode scarf is ... strange. Okay, you outrun everything. Then what? Electrode is going to have problems making any significance when it fails to do enough damage to the opposition. Sure, you can OHKO some x4 weak ice mons and like a Tornadus, but that's about it. Definitely not as good at the revenge killing job as Landorus, Thundurus-T, Keldeo, or Terrakion, who all offer more to the team than Electrode.
  8. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Okay, calling something strange does not automatically turn it into a bad set. Scarf Electrode is a beast. Can your Scarf Jolteon explode (you call it weak but hello base 250 attack)? No, no it can't. Besides, who uses Scarf Jolteon? Plus, does your Scarf Jolteon have Aftermath? Another nope. Electrode is just so key to have in those situations when your STAB won't do junk and you need a way out. Jolteon isn't going to kill Thundurus-T because it can tank any attacks Jolteon cares to throw at it. However, it won't be taking an Explosion anytime soon. That in itself is a case to use it. The point isn't even all about revenge killing, as you assume it is. First, Electrode can Volt Switch coming off 568 Speed. Landorus and Thundurus-T, who you both assume are better Scarfers, can also U-Turn/Volt Switch, but cannot outspeed Adamant Stoutland no matter how hard they try. Scarf Electrode doesn't even run a +Speed Nature and still outruns the big doggy. The other two Scarfers you list, Keldeo and Terrakion, also outrun Stoutland, but as I mention, they can't Volt Switch, so they are inferior in that regard.

    Any way you look at it, Electrode is a premier Choice Scarf user and should not be rejected just because you haven't thought of it before. Open your mind to new ideas, and maybe you'll discover the next Rock Polish Landorus.
  9. Queen of Randoms

    Queen of Randoms I'm So Crown
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    So yeah, about that Explosion...

    4 Atk Electrode Explosion vs 0 HP/0 Def Thundurus-T: 46.82% - 55.18% (2-3 hits to KO)

    252 SpAtk Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Thundurus-T: 54.85% - 64.88% (2 hits to KO)

    And that bit about Stoutland...

    252 SpAtk Keldeo-R Secret Sword vs 0 HP/0 Def Stoutland: 98.39% - 115.76% (87.5% chance to OHKO)

    I assume you don't need a calc for Terrakion.

    You force Stoutland out and hit something else hard (or kill Stoutland).

    Surely it may have it's uses, but I don't think you can say it outclasses any of the mons listed per se.
  10. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I'm sorry Lavos, but this time I'm going to agree with TDL. While it's true that Electrode has Explosion, it is coming off an awful base 50 Atk, wich isn't good even when you don't run a hindering nature. Also, remember that Explosion got nerfed in this generation and in most cases it's going to do laughable damage to even the frailest of things:

    4 Atk Electrode Explosion vs 0 HP/0 Def Thundurus-T: 46,82% - 55,18%
    Entry hazards damage: 74
    After entry hazards: 214 - 239 (71,57% - 79,93%)
    2 hits to KO


    As you can see, with your EV spread and the common EV spread ot Thundurus-T (you are never going invest in HP or Def) Thundurus-T is not OHKOed, even after Stealth Rock. This shows that not even Explosion is sufficient to separate Electrode from Jolteon. Plus Jolteon is perfectly capable of gaining momentum with only Volt Switch.

    On top of this, while almost nobody uses Choice Scarf Jolteon, it is perfectly capable of outpacing Adamant Stoutland in sandstorm, and with the extra power, Jolteon has more chance of OHKOing than Electrode. Also, Jolteon's movepool isn't that good, but is much better than that of Electrode. So Jolteon makes a better user of Choice Scarf, even though Jolteon has better things to do.

    EDIT: Ninja'd by Queen of Randoms, lol

    EDIT2: Speaking of abilities, Jolteon has the much better ability Volt Absorb, wich makes him immune to Thunder Wave. Lack of Volt Absorb means that Thunder Wave can shut down Electrode, another reason why Electrode is a worser scarfer.
  11. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Okay, if you read my first post on Electrode you'll see I've made the EV spread better so that it still outspeeds Scarf Tornadus-T but now you get more power out of Explosion.

    I understand that haters are going to hate, so I'm not going to continue talking about Electrode, but I will continue using it to great success on the ladder. Your loss.
  12. Queen of Randoms

    Queen of Randoms I'm So Crown
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    No one's hating, and if you have a good point by all means go ahead and make it. But you can't expect people to just blindly accept something like Scarf Electrode. We're all very open to your ideas, it's just that the burden lies on you to prove they're good if you want to present them as such.
  13. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Lavos Spawn can you tell me one reason to use Scarf Electrode over Scarf Jolteon, which is already almost unviable?

    Both outspeed anything in OU, so we have a tie here. Jolteon has 30 Base SpA more, which translates to 66 (factoring the + SpA nature) more SpA points, so Jolteon wins in this aspect. Volt Absorb is way more useful than Aftermath so it's another win for Jolteon. Finally Modest Jolteon does more to Thundurus-T with HP Ice than Electrode with Explosion (not to mention the god awful side effect of Explosion), so we have another win for Jolteon.

    So basically whatever Scarf Electrode does, Scarf Jolteon does it wayyyyy better.
  15. Queen of Randoms

    Queen of Randoms I'm So Crown
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    @Shurtgal Apology accepted.

    However, I still disagree on a few points. I feel like Mag vs. Scizor is 50/50 at best. You have to put yourself in a situation where you're pretty much either going to sweep or at least kill Scizor if Scizor doesn't Bullet Punch. The burden is on you to get yourself into that advantageous position. Of course on the other hand one could argue the burden is on your opponent to stay out of that position, but to me that doesn't seem as difficult unless Scizor is the only thing on your team that can handle common threats or you've let the opponent set up with Terrakion or something like I said before. Then if you manage to get into that position, it's still down to a pretty much 50/50 prediction: you predict Scizor to Bullet Punch and take down your threat, or you predict him to U-turn/Superpower to try to hit the Magnezone switch. This one is a really equal prediction, as you both are faced with a tough, potentially game changing choice. The threat of Magnezone is good here, but not that good.

    And of course Mag can be a nice revenge killer to Scizor and Genesect, but you're pretty much losing to non-choice sets, aren't you? They're by no means easy to trap if you're playing a good opponent, and the slow Magnezone's ability to revenge kill is a bit overrated. You can run Scarf to fix this, but then you're locked into HP Fire and something like Terrakion can come in and have a field day.

    And on the Forretress bit, Volt Switch gives your opponent the clear advantage. Mag comes in, Forretress Volt Switchs, momentum belongs to your opponent. Another example of where something like Terrakion gets to come in and land a heavy blow.

    Magnezone has it's little niche, but overall I agree most times you can do better and not rely heavily on it to kill steels.
  16. Porii Sames

    Porii Sames

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    I just wanted to nitpick a this; it is VERY easy to trap choicelocked Scizor or Genesect. WHENEVER CBZor kills something with BP, Zone kills it. Landorus RPs and you BP it and kill it? Dead Sciz. You U-turn? Something else eats an EQ. Or Genesect vs. a low HP Specs Keldeo. U-turn and do some damage, let something else take a Surf? Maybe. Tbolt and kill it now? Cool! Zone comes in and revenges. It's pretty easy to get trapped by Zone with choice mons, no matter how 'good' you are.
  17. Danger Mouse

    Danger Mouse

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    When one side is packing magnezone, the player that has scizor has to play VERY carefully and will probably be spamming u-turn because one wrong move and he is trapped and dead. I know that if I'm using Scizor or Genesect and I know there's an opposing magnezone I will be VERY careful about what moves I use. If you run a team that lays down hazards and get rocks and 1 layer of spikes down, scizor is in the worse position: it can't afford to stay in because of magnezone, but it can't afford to switch repeatedly because hazards will wear it down. Magnezone can do the exact same thing to genesect. Sure, the person using Scizor or Genesect can avoid being trapped through good play, but the threat of magnezone puts them at a disadvantage that they have to play around. This goes back to the fact that Magnezone's only saving grace is the one niche that it occupies that only it can really fulfill, and some teams will find that niche extremely valuable to have, dragmag being the most notable.
  18. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    This. Just like when I said with deo-d teams how it also prevents forrey from freely rapid spinning. Volt-Switching gave you switch advantage - great! However, you just took 3 spikes / 1 sr damage for it. You can't spin because you'll be trapped, and if you spin gengar can come in. Not saying every zone team is like this one, but its a good example on how Mag can still work

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4405412#post4405412

    This is a perfect example of a team that uses Magnezone properly.

    Edit: Its not dragmag
  19. Queen of Randoms

    Queen of Randoms I'm So Crown
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    I noted this. I'm saying that this revenge killing ability is overrated, because yes you've killed Scizor, but now Magnezone is dead weight (Or non-choice Scizor killed it too). Something like Terrakion gets to come in now and wreck. Especially if you were scarfed. I mean, it's worth using if the very bane of your team's existence is Scizor, but after it fills the role of revenge killing (which you had to sack something to allow it to do), you're potentially in a bit of trouble (again, especially if you're scarfed). There are plenty of Pokémon who can come in and not care too much about Zone and cause major problems.

    He has his little place on DragMag teams, and he can of course revenge non-choice locked variants well, but you have to manipulate your opponent into locking themselves into the right move as well as predict well. On a standard team there are generally better options.
  20. Danger Mouse

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    You use Magnezone for its intended purpose: eliminating certain troublesome steel types to more easily facilitate a dragon sweep (or something along those lines that hates certain steel types). If you're trying to use it for something else, you're using it incorrectly, and you're better off using a different poke. Also, I prefer to use sub magnezone with lefties over scarf. Sure, it's slow, but getting behind a sub in the right situations lets magnezone continue to be a threat even after eliminating its target. I'm not arguing that mags is all that good by any means, just that it shouldn't be written off either.
  21. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    An interesting aspect of Magnezone that hasn't been discussed yet is the way it can be used to manipulate the opponent. The instant the average opponent sees a Magnezone on Team Preview, accompanied by Dragons, etc., they will become a bit more cautious with their Steel-types (assuming no Shed Shell), if only subconsciously. They'll constantly be wary of a double-switch to Magnezone. Switching Ferrothorn into Latios might seem risky to them because of the threat Magnezone poses, which means you might get a free Draco Meteor KO / crippling because the opponent overthought things. Or take a +1 Dragonite not yet locked into Outrage. Your Scarf Genesect could Ice Beam for the OHKO and get murked by Magnezone afterwards, but what if Zone switches in on that Ice Beam, netting a free OHKO and keeping Dragonite alive? But if you U-turn or Flamethrower anticipating the switch, and Dragonite stays in, then you risk letting Dragonite throw out a free boosted Outrage and maybe not only get a kill, but force Genesect to sacrifice itself to Magnezone as well in order to revenge kill Dragonite. At higher levels of play this can also lead to hilarious bluffs, such as bringing Expert Belt Genesect in as Dragonite Dragon Dances, Ice Beaming the Zone switch-in, then Flamethrowering for an OHKO.

    Magnezone can really focus a battle on reading the opponent's level of play (I'll assume you all know what level theory is for brevity's sake, but will elaborate on request). I'm not saying using Magnezone requires skill, but in a battle between two good players Magnezone can really accentuate the players' respective levels of skill and ability to read and adjust level of play on the fly.
  22. Marzbar

    Marzbar

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    Don't honey me.

    Since when does Ferrothorn use Protect?

    I also have Magic Bounce Espeon on the team. Ferrothorn can try and Seed and Spike me all it likes, it will just get them bounced back on my double switch. And even if it does get some Spikes up, my spinner takes care of that. Then Espeon or Magnezone can 3HKO it in Rain, IF it's actually raining.

    You're also assuming it will be Raining. My Kingdra doesn't need Rain to sweep. It has a Dragon Dance set.
  23. Arcticblast

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    At least 75% of the Ferrothorn I see run Protect, at least. It's a great move for scouting purposes and Leech Seed stalling. Also, unless Espeon is packing HP Fire, a good Ferrothorn user will Power Whip / Gyro Ball on the switch and 2HKO.

    Magnezone can take out Ferrothorn if you PREDICT INCREDIBLY WELL. Neither one has the advantage, since Ferro can Thunder Wave or Leech Seed stall Ferrothorn. Or both, if you're unlucky.
  24. Queen of Randoms

    Queen of Randoms I'm So Crown
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    Many Ferrothorns run Protect, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

    Okay, switch Espeon in and allow Ferrothorn to escape. Good job doing your job Magnezone. Fairly sure Ferrothron beats Espeon anyway, as uninvested HP Fire is a 4-5HKO on Ferrothorn in rain, and a 2-3HKO out of it. Even max SpAtk Espeon is a 2HKO, and if you accidentally come in on Power Whip GG Espeon. Even Magnezone's 3HKO is really unimpressive, especially when you could have a Pokémon that instead of getting into a war with Ferrothorn could just kill it or threaten it out and take advantage of that and be an overall better help to your team.

    Saying you have a spinner is not a legit excuse to say Ferrothorn getting hazards up is irrelevant. You have to take time to spin them away; your opponent isn't just going to let you spin. In the time it takes you to spin, your opponent can steal the momentum and turn the match in his favor.

    Regardless, many teams running Ferrothorn are also running rain, so that point is rather inconsequential.

    Finally, Kingdra's DD sweeping set is not that impressive in OU. Remember you have only base 95 attack. If you're not taking advantage of rain, it can be rather underwhelming.

    I'm not saying (as I've said multiple times) that Magnezone can't do its job well. I'm just saying it's difficult, much harder than you make it out to be when you're playing against an opponent at least as good as you, and I personally think that better ways can be found to deal with Steels.

    EDIT: Plus what Arctic said.
  25. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    If you're going to use Magnezone, the ONLY set you ought to be running is
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Flash Cannon
    - Thunderbolt / Sleep Talk

    This will do the job Magnezone is supposed to do 100% of the time. Hidden Power [Fire] is a clean OHKO on any Ferrothorn outside of Rain, and a 2HKO on even the most specially defensive of variants in Rain. It will also OHKO Forretress and Scizor outside of Rain (even w/Rain it does well over half). Volt Switch is plenty strong enough to OHKO Skarmory and do quite a number on defensive Forretress, around 70% if I remember that correctly (no access to calcs at the moment). Flash Cannon nails switch-ins expecting an Electric move, 2HKOing defensive Hippowdon, Donphan, Tyranitar, and OHKOing Mamoswine and Terrakion. The last moveslot is optional, Thunderbolt provides a harder-hitting alternative to Volt Switch and doesn't force you out, whereas Sleep Talk gives your team a guaranteed answer to Amoonguss and can catch Breloom off-guard easily (they Spore as you switch in, they try to set up as you Sleep Talk and kill them unless you draw Volt Switch). I prefer Sleep Talk but it's really up to the user.

    The reason I posted this was because I'm seeing people say that Magnezone doesn't even 3HKO Ferrothorn in Rain, which was a big wtf in my mind because if you're not using Specs Magnezone you really shouldn't be using Magnezone at all (SubCharge sucks guys, get it through your heads!). I hope confused users take advantage of this set.

    Oh yeah and to anyone who's asserting Protect is or is not used on Ferrothorn, usage stats show Ferrothorn has Protect 33.926% of the time, so let's put an end to the empirical does or does-not arguments.

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