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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Yeah Temp V1 you explained it pretty well!

    Btw, seeing as yee mentioned Sableye as a spinner in sun teams being able to wall any spinner, what about Sun stall? It's an idea that i always wanted to try, but never made it, because tbh it is quite a difficult task.

    The biggest assets that sun stall offers over other stall teams are Sableye, a spin-blocker that cannot be beaten by any spinner, an almost godlike special wall, Heatran, which loses its water weakness in sun, and is therefore now able to wall Latios, Recover-less Starmie, Rotom-W and Tentacruel as well as hit very hard with Lava Plume, Cresselia, which is an excellent wall that beats many threats to common stall such as MixMence and CB Terrakion and of 'course the deadly SubSeed Venusaur.

    Any ideas?
  2. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    problem with sun stall (and it's a shame because i'd love to see full stall in sun done well) is that so few things can capitalize on sun in a defensive manner... steel (being the best defensive typing in the game) has a fire weakness that suddenly disappears under rain, and rain dish exists (cough tentacruel). in addition, bulky politoed is actually bulky, because it can serve as a bulky water. sand wears down opposing mons, and boosts the special defense of rock types which means things like tyranitar and terrakion actually become kinda bulky.

    compare to sun. the only thing it really has going for it, from a stall perspective, is that it denies other weathers. bulky ninetales is... lol not bulky. if by bulky we mean "struggles to survive but tends to do the job well enough that dugtrio can do the rest", then okay, you got me, but sun can't win the weather war without the offensive pressure and momentum that helps trappers thrive. being pure fire is really not a very good defensive typing. fire actually lends itself REALLY well to other defensive typings (heatran and rotom-heat have absolutely incredible typings, seriously if rotom-h's typing was on a mon with better support movepool, i would use that shit) but on its own just downright sucks. in addition, sun worsens the weakness of one of the most important defensive types in the game, steel, which impairs your ability to wall any dragons that pack fire coverage, hence why dragons work so well both under and against sun. then there are relatively few defensive benefits to sun - no equivalents to rain dish, no residual damage like sand or hail that goes so well with stall. the only real stally thing that benefits from sun is morning sun, which is actually a terrible move, because with only 8pp you can't stall out anything or anyone. you get accelerated chlorophyll subseeding, but there are better ways to wear down opponents, ways that sun has difficulty exploiting.

    the benefits of sun for defensive teams are limited, and the only ones i can think of have already been listed. hence why sun stall is not really a thing. there need to be more good bulky fire and ground types for sun stall to succeed (rock is probably better in sand than in sun...). just as rain takes away steel's weakness to fire, sun eliminates weaknesses to water; that's got to be the best way to capitalize. i guess you have mons like donphan, lando-t, bulky rotom-h, bulky heatran, etc, but why go to the trouble of running sun (which has the hardest time winning weather wars, on its own at least) if you would abuse those threats instead of powerhouses like cb victini? i'm one to talk since my favorite style is weatherless full stall (probably even crazier than sun stall, in this era...), but it's really a matter of pragmatism
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    akinsethetase we all know why Sun Stall is difficult to run, what i want to hear is what would you use in order to succeed with such a concept?

    Say you had to participate in Sun stall challenge or whatever... What mons you believe would be the best to run, combos, moves etc.
  4. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    well excuuuuuse me for not contributing =P

    i build my stall teams in terms of FWG+hazards, but the problem with sun stall is that ninetales already wastes a slot for little to no benefit. if you actually intend to run full stall in this metagame, every mon needs to be pulling its full weight, which is tough when ninetales sucks ass. this team probably wouldn't work in practice but let's see what happens if i start bullshitting off the top of my head

    attempt #1: FWG (open)
    obviously bulky ninetales is a start. idk if i'd run roar because heatran is probably a given as well. definitely pain split, but i'm feeling gliscor in here somewhere so maybe neither toxic nor willowisp are necessary. double fire phazers feels very redundant though. probably the standard sunny day set with sunny day/solarbeam/pain split/fire stab and a bulky spread. you'll actually hurt opposing weather starters that way, and seeing as there's no room for dugtrio, you need all the help you can get.

    heatran, i'm not sure about. i've preferred shed shell restalk heatran on all my other teams, but this being sun, the whole point of shed shell (countering sun sectrio) is kinda moot. i'm thinking standard sdef heatran with lefties, lava plume, protect (if you're gonna run lefties, might as well abuse em), roar, willowisp.

    grass, the obvious shoo in is venusaur, but i'm not sure. a part of me leans towards tangrowth, but the shit special defense makes you too vulnerable to rain, and a grass type that can't take on rain is bullshit in my mind. i'd probably end up sticking to specially defensive subseed venusaur. i'd want to run spikes rade except that its bulk is just not good enough for OU.

    the water is a tough one, because i like slowbro (fire blast 8D) except it's not a great pick for the meta right now. if in doubt i'd probably start by trying it though, some standard set would probably work fine for a first attempt.

    there we go, fwg+ninetales. what's next with 2 slots? idk, tbh. sableye seems like a shoo in because we seem to agree that it spinblocks best when in sun, but that leaves only one slot for hazards+toxic. i like latias because it fits everywhere (this is the only place where i'd actually run hp fire latias), but that means you have to cram stealth rock onto heatran. you can run britscor but you have no room for sr. landorus-t seems nice; no room for toxic though. and none of these options give you a spinner; the only one that fills that would be pure support donphan (rapid spin/stealth rock/roar/toxic).

    FINAL PRODUCT: tales, heatran, slowbro, subseed venusaur, sableye, donphan?

    even so the team has only one steel, a steel that is fighting/eq-weak, so dragons destroy you. ROUND TWO START


    attempt #2: hazards (open)
    okay so after writing all that i realized that the resulting team would probably suck ass. i think the problem is that fwg is too rigid to build around when you only have 5 slots. let's try again.

    again let's start with the bulky tales and the bulky heatran. we can shuffle around roar and toxic and willowisp between these guys however we want so let's skip that part. i think i'd put sr on heatran this time.

    now, spikers on sun is what i really want to think about. i don't want to run forretress, right off the bat i know that. rapid spin/spikes is too much work for forry when it also has to handle dragons, which are sun's problem #1. i'm thinking either deoxys-d (bulky spiker - recover/taunt/spikes/night shade) or standard skarmory (using my special 252/x+/60 spread that takes two LO tornadus-T hurricanes). deoxys brings a nice fight resist and doesn't carry a fire weakness, which is nice, but it's vulnerable to shit like cb tyranitar (which sun is weak enough to already), and it doesn't provide a dragon resist. leaning towards skarmory; it plays nice with heatran and brings in the crucial second steel - no stall team these days should go without two steels; too many dragons running about.

    okay so that's three mons: tales, tran, skarm. where's the rain counter? i don't like amoonguss because opposing fire types will murder you and he'll pull no weight except against rain. gastrodon is the obvious choice. if we give gastro toxic then we can take it off of either tran or tales, whichever one was running it. i like physdef gastro personally, but ima try to find room for a lando-t or donphan or shit in here, so let's keep going and let the gastro be sdef to take shit like thundy-t focus blasts better

    tales, tran, skarm, gastro. we already have a problem with ground attacks but ain't no such thing as a levitating spinner. i'm gonna say xatu here to alleviate both problems - screw spinners, and screw ground attacks. standard xatu (heat wave/roost/uturn/status) should be plenty sufficient.

    now for the final mon. if we look at the resistance pattern of the five we have, we can already see some typing issues. xatu is the only solid fighting resist and terrakion destroys it. stab electric abounds and gastro is the only counter (bulky heatran cannot stay alive against thundy in rain). my thoughts initially went to britscor, but the overlap of potential status users on this team is getting high. instead let's try that substitute sableye set. if we get up a sub we can burn terrakion and its ilk and protect our precious spikes and sr. plus we seem to have agreed that sableye works well in sun so why not? plus, if we run willowisp here and toxic on gastro, that means neither ninetales nor heatran has to worry about carrying status, which gives them maximum moveslots.

    FINAL PRODUCT: tales/heatran/gastrodon/skarmory/xatu/sableye. the weaknesses are not nearly as obvious, but i think this one still has some pretty deep flaws... i wouldn't want to be the sucker having to play it. still, it's not a terrible second try.


    obviously this requires a more committed team building effort, but if you just look at the ideas that i started spinning off the top of my head, there is very little that ninetales brings to the table... softens water moves and gives venusaur chloro, and that's it (venusaur is not even a very good stallmon to start with, that's why subseed is its last set >_>). that's what i don't like about sun stall: sun itself becomes the weakest link, an artificial limitation on your team, and you start wondering what you could accomplish if you just dropped ninetales for something that actually... does something. what can i say without trying it though, eh?

    EDIT @ wynaut below: yeah mamoswine is a major limiting factor for stall in general; i used to be running sdef skarm with no def investment but mamo easily flinches it to death with icicle crash, so you basically have to be impish+def investment or mamoswine will break your team no matter what else is on it. edgequake+fighting+ice is really quite catastrophic. zong counters but easily gets worn down by switching in on repeated superpowers, dies eventually.
  5. Princess Bubblegum

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    Actually one stall team archetype I have been playing a lot starts with Forretress or Heatran for hazards control and to get a genesect "counter" out of the way. From there I pretty much have 4 pokemon to cover everything else.

    Surprisingly one limit when it comes to the physical side is Mamoswine, mamoswine has 2 counters that aren't worn down, Skarmory, and Slowbro. Since I have hazards slowbro seems like a good start, all I need then is a Scizor counter (maybe Tyranitar) so I am balancing between Jellicent and Gliscor.

    The special side is a bit more tricky, but Blissey and Amoonguss have been solid players, Amoonguss needs some testing over Celebi though. In either case I need something that can take volt switches, Breloom, and Keldeo, so its pretty much a toss up.

    I would not say sun stall is precisely bad, its more of extremely difficult to play and take a ton of playing with. I remember in BW1 a few got in the top 10 with sun stall teams, you know back when that was hard. One big pro of sun stall is the ability to use fucking cresselia can gain 75% health in one turn. Cresselia is like immortal if played correctly, her bulky makes things shat their pants. She is one of the few pure Mix-mence counters for example. Again it is very hard to play, regular stall is hard enough, but if your pure insanity, suns stall is very possible.
  6. Doughboy

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    Drop U-turn. On a "hard" stall team, you have very little to gain from u-turn's momentum whatsoever. Unlike on balance teams which use pivots for easier switching, most of your guys will have the ability to hard switch into a target with ease. I don't think U-turn will allow you to escape from the Pursuit users targeting you either (Tyranitar and Scizor) since you are slower faster. Outside of escaping trappers, U-turn/Volt-Switch have very little use on stall teams. Scouting is done better by Protect or phazing since each can provide some ability to rack up damage on the opposing team. Tried Eviolite Misdrevus, it just doesn't spin block as well as cool as it is (only if it were bulkier with Lefties recovery).

    Sun stall will never work in OU for two paticular reasons. First is Ninetales. Ninetales literally contributes nothing to the team besides the ability to status things. When teambuilding where you are trying to maximize the utility of every slot, Ninetales is certainly not doing any favors. It also is constraining that you need to heavily rely on Rapid Spin in order to keep your walls functioning (in the case of Sableye on Venusaur) when competing against an opposing weather inducer. You may also need to use Shed Shell in order to keep Sun up to escape Dugtrio (some rain teams use it). Therefore, you will have the ability to switch in 5 times with just SR down: your opponent 9! Second, Sun does little to help the Steel-types and Water-types that act as the defensive backbones for most teams (really the OU tier). Good luck getting Dragonite when it can do ~50% to Skarmory without a boost and getting Creselia to take that abuse (with no reliable recovery) repeatedly :o If Hippowdon got Drought (mirroring its cousin Groundon) you might have a chance.

    As for suggestions, you will want to limit your weaknesses towards Sand teams paticularly. Having an of forgotten Rock resistance will be handy. Of course you would also want to limit your water weaknesses too. Claydol/Nidoqueen would be a good Poke to incorporate on the team since they both counter Terrakion and can give trouble to Sand teams (though Nidoqueen counters TTar better, Claydol vs Hippowdon better). One absorbs Tspikes/provides them while the other Spins. Skarmory is perhaps the best general counter to sand teams and can incorporate Spikes, however its ability to counter Dragonite will be severely limited. A strong secondary check to Dragons like Slowbro, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon will probably make your way onto your team. Run Eviolite Chansey since your weather makes sure sand doesn't make its toll. For rain, you have Dragointe (stronger Flamethrower on Shuffler), Venasaur (absorbs Tspikes needs Aromatherapy), and Gastrodon/Jellicent (with Shadow Ball/Night Shade) at your disposal.
    ____________________________

    Stall is bad now (worse than other team-types that is right) for a couple of reasons. For one, its a bitch to teambuild, so you have to invest more time/thought into the teambuilding which can get boring. This accounts partially for its lack of popularity. However lack of success has to do with the inability to incorporate two things at once on a team: walling and utility.

    What I mean by this is that you have a class of Pokemon that can actually take the hits to account for certain threats, but then there is another class of Pokemon that possesses the moves to support your own. So you have your wallish Pokes that prevent you from being destroyed from threats i.e. the Chanseys, the Slowbros, and the Heatras. Then you have your pokes that ussually have an exclusive utility that can counter threats but are otherwise lacking/exclusive defensively: your Forretress', Sableyes, Roserades, and Quagsires. Stuff like Slowbro is great to counter powerful threats like Terrakion and act as a secondary check to Dragons. However in the end they are lacking since they provide so little to act as team players (what can Slowbro do besides spread toxic/use trick?)

    Essentially you can't find the room to stop yourself from being destroyed by the powerful hits launched in BW while supporting youself or trying to incorporate an exclusive utility move on a team like Rapid Spin. Sometimes you have to curtail the supporting/utility capability of a Poke just to make sure it can wall threats/stay healthy. The shift of using RestTalk Sp. Def Heatran is one example. In exchange for the ability to counter Genesect+Dugtrio more efficiently, you give up the ability to use two utility moves! This makes it so that teambuilding is much more constrained; especially in the circumstance that you can no longer put SR on sp. def Heatran. Not only do you miss out on the ability to utilize Heatran as an SR setter/contribute damage with Toxic, you also miss out on Protect. I can't explain how unappreciated the importance the move Protect is on a stall team. It isn't often thought about, but endgame if you need to wait turns for a Pokemon to die from residual damage like status or sandstorm, you can extend it from the 3-4 turns (usually you will lose 2 guys in a battle) to 9 if the last Pokemon comes out into the Protect user. It makes playing against choice users that come in on certain pokes much easier to play against too (like Keldeo coming in on Heatran).

    So when you have to take into account stuff that is walled by exclusive things (Tornadus-T - Jirachi, RainCM Jirachi - Gastrodon/Psong Celebi, Genesect Sun teams - Heatran, Terrakion - Gliscor/Nidoqueen/Slowbro/lolitrieditsbad Claydol) while also trying to incorporate stuff with limited distribution whether for support or to beat certain targets (Baton Pass - Haze/Perish Song, Deo-D Offense -Prankster/FAST Taunt or Magic Coat/Bounce, opposing stall - stall breaker/Toxic Spikes) you are going to run into issues when covering threats. Overall there is a very exclusive list of Pokemon on stall that can both wall and provide great utility. Among these are Jellicent, Chansey, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Rain Dish (in rain) Tentacruel, and Dragonite.
  7. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Personally, if I was looking toward sun stall, I would prolly look at a Ninetales / Cresselia / Chansey / Sableye core, and then add a spinner + SR / Spiker. To this end, something like Forretress might potentally be a good option, since I could then run Venusaur in the last slot for Sub Seeding, plus as a "scarfer" when sun is up. Xatu is also a good option, pissing off rain teams by shutting down Ferrothorn and screwing over anything that looks to spam Taunt. I don't really play stall much tho, so idk how good my rough idea of a sun stall team would actually be lol
  8. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    I like Ginga's approach to it, that core does look pretty solid for a Stall team, I mean take out Tales and you have something that could function as a decent core on any stall team.

    Alk, when you asked for a Levitating Spinner, you overlooked one; Claydol. Now we all know how shitty Claydol can be, although on a SunStall team it may actually have a place. In Sun it loses its weakness to water. The rest of its weaknesses are covered by Heatran, and then double covered by other members that might find there way onto a SunStall. It has very usable defenses also, with base 105 physical and 120 special. If you really wanted to free a slot up on Heatran, or whatever your Stealth Rock user was, you could throw them on Claydol.
    As gimmicky as it sounds a potential moveset could be:

    [​IMG]
    Claydol @ Leftovers

    Rapid Spin
    Stealth Rock
    Reflect/Heal Block/Earthquake
    Lightscreen/Ice Beam

    Screens aren't necessary, but if you don't want it to be offensive they could help the team. Another potential move is Heal Block. While a fairly useless move in itself, on a stall team it could be very useful, against say a CM Latias. The major drawback to Claydol is lack of reliable recovery, but that aside I think it could fit perfectly onto a SunStall team. If using Heal Block, HP-Ice could be used in conjunction for Dragons, it wouldn't do a lot, but it would do something.

    Thoughts?
  9. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    Earthquake and Ice beam for Claydol for sure. One of its biggest assets is being able to counter Terrakion and some dragons with its Defense. Earthquake lets it slam Terrakion, even in sand (and the 1.5 SpD boost) are going on. And Claydol learns Ice Beam to murder dragons and Gliscor.
  10. bubbly

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    The best Sunstall build I've used was Ninetales / Cressy / Sableye / Skarmory / Tentacruel / Chansey. What direction do you guys take with Cressy btw? Moonlight is obvious, for the last slots you're always tossing up between Calm Mind, Psychic, Ice Beam and HP Fire.
  11. tehy

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    I was going to quote, but the post was too long, so let me just say this:


    U-turn is awesome on stall celebi, because of pursuit. Now, i hear you saying "but you can't u-turn on the pursuit user"!! Yeah, you u-turn as they come in. If it's t-tar, then he takes around 20% of his life, which can wear him down to the point that you can actually beat him with grass-type moves. As for scizor, not so much, but it can wear him down to wherever you need him to be for a 100% ko with HP fire, which of course depends on your EVs. (I needed 75%).

    TL;DR:U-turn lets you double-switch when pursuiters come in, and wear down t-tars so that you can defeat them 1V1 eventually.
  12. Jimbon

    Jimbon fools and worthless liars
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    Interesting set, but I've no idea why you're using Hidden Power [Ice] Claydol when it learns Ice Beam. I think that set would need Earth Power somewhere, I'd hate to be used as setup fodder for Terrakion when Claydol should be able to wall Terrakion. If you are using this on a Stall Team, I think you're much better off without Light Screen / Reflect. There's simply no need to use dual screens if you're using stall just because everything on your team should be able to take a hit. Besides, it's not like you're preparing for a sweep or anything. I think the best set for Claydol would be something along the lines of Rapid Spin / Stealth Rock / Ice Beam / Earth Power. You hit pretty much everything you need to while still performing the role of a Spinner. With two attacking moves it's much harder to be turned into setup fodder, as any Steel walls mono Ice Beam, while stuff like Gliscor and Dragonite use you as setup fodder when you lack Ice Beam. I also think Hidden Power [Fire] is a worthy mention somewhere, as it allows you to beat Forretress and Ferrothorn easier, both of which are generally annoying to Stall. But yeah, Claydol is a cool mon especially for Sun -- being able to take on things like Scarf Terrakion and Landorus-T is great as they can prove annoying for Sun.

    As for Sun Stall in general, I've never seen a decent Sun Stall team in B/W. There's so little you can abuse with Sun in comparison to Rain and having to run the worst 'mon in OU (Ninetales) isn't doing you any favours.
  13. tehy

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    I've seen all right sun-stall,it's not hard to beat.

    Also, dual screens are brutally pointless in stall, and i see this being used occasionally. STOP. If you can't wall things without screens, sucks, but stall is all about the long run, and you need your free turns for other stuff. Claydol is interesting, though-screens sort of cancel out boosting, and rapid spin means you can't just set up hazards. But you really don't want claydol being worn down while it sets screens.

    And jimbon, really EQ is better IMO.
  14. alexwolf

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    Temp V1 i wouldn't use Claydol in the same team with Cresselia as they have the same roles. They both are hard counters to Terrakion, and generally provide similar resistances. Claydol has Rapid Spin over Cresselia but Cresselia has way more bulk and reliable recovery.

    bubbly i never ever run Calm Mind on Cresselia. Psychic/Psyshock, Ice Beam and Moonlight are mandatory imo. Then you can chose between HP Fire, Reflect and T-Wave. I prefer Reflect which lets you escape your biggest enemy, which is a threat to sun teams in general, Tyranitar. Having HP Fire to kill Scizor is not necessary anyway, as Sun teams shouldn't have a hard time against him. However OHKO-2HKOing Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Forretress is good. T-Wave lets you cripple sweepers you can't hurt otherwise, such as SubCM Jirachi, CM Latias, and Volcarona.

    But seriously Cresselia is such a good wall, which counters so many otheriwse unwallable offensive threats such as MixMence, Terrakion, Mamoswine and SD Garchomp. The only thing that prevents him from being used in stall teams is lack of reliable recovery, which is fixed in Sun, so i think that using Cress on a sun stall team is a must.

    The team that bubbly posted seems quite good. Ninetales, Chansey, Cresselia, Sableye, Tentacruel and Skarmory have good synergy and they provide anything a stall team would want, except from a cleric. Tentacruel and Chansey can take on most rain mons, and Cresselia, Skarmory and Sableye handle many dangerous physical attackers that sand teams carry, such as Stoutland, Landorus(-T) and Terrakion. Only serious problem is offensive Heatran, if he grabs a Flash Fire boost, as then he will be able to 2hko Chansey and nothing so nothing can wall him, while most of the team members can do nothing to him. The only way to kill him is with hazards. Also physical Fire types such as Darmanitan and Victini demolish this team too, but most other things seem to be covered.
  15. Lavos Spawn

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    Isn't that Stunt's team? I've seen it used before and it's really devastating, at least in BW1.

    Cresselia is interesting. Personally I'm a big fan of a Sun sweeper along the lines of CM/Psyshock/HP Fire/Moonlight, but if you're looking for more of a Utility Cress, then I'd say a quality set is Psychic/Reflect/Moonlight/HP Fire or Ice Beam.

    The best Sun Stall uses CM Cress, from what I've seen. Sun Stall's big problem is that it often lacks a method of killing last-Poke sweepers, which Cresselia excels at. With Psyshock and HP Fire, it can beat essentially any CM sweeper, and it does a good job walling last-Poke Dragonite, Salamence, whatever. Its decent base Speed is really nice for outspeeding SD Scizor if your Ninetales has fallen.

    If its mono-Psychic typing and Moonlight as its staple recovery move didn't make it so atrocious, I'd use Cresselia on all my stall teams.
  16. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    Just throwing this out there. Council representin'

    I actually enjoy BW2 a lot, contrary to what a lot of the well known players feel. I don't mind the team match up "issue" and I certainly don't mind the "challenge" of having to prepare for many team archetypes.

    That said, it is my opinion that Rain Offense as a whole is simply too strong in this metagame. Rain Offense in BW1 was already super strong, and BW2 gave it Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, Keldeo, and Genesect. Sure you can use all 4 on non Rain teams as well, but all 4 are without question a great boon to Rain Offense's prowess.

    Here is my issue: I don't think any of them are broken individually. Yea, I can understand and even appreciate (accept) suspect arguments for all 4 (probably Genesect the most), but I still don't think any are convincingly broken (they might be banned by a weak 50-50ish simple majority or something but it won't be convincing). However, Rain Offense as whole, to me, is convincingly broken.

    Before I continue on, I'd like to emphasize that I am not in any shape or form biased against weather. You'll note that I was the one that did the main grassroots advocacy and campaigning for a complex ban to keep the weathers in BW1 ('Aldaron's Proposal'). I've tried my best to keep weather in BW.

    Nevertheless, we now have BW2, and 4 GREAT (yet not broken, convincingly) additions to Rain Offense. BW1 Rain Offense was already arguably the strongest team archetype (in general), and now BW2 has given it 4 great tools to be that much better. Stall is basically nonexistent, on ladder or tournament play (though tour bw2 seems to be a bit more balanced defensively than the ladder). I honestly believe Rain Offense, with its large number of great offensive threats, is now, in BW2 (not BW1 mind you), convincingly broken.

    So we can either ban a bunch of things (some combination of Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, Keldeo, Genesect) that aren't broken individually, or we can take a nod at history and view Politoed through the scope of the 4th gen suspect characteristics and see that it is broken regarding the Support Clause, since Drizzle is the one connecting constant to "Rain Offense."

    (Note banning Drizzle also helps Smogon in the PR department, as a complex ban would no longer be necessary with Drizzle gone. While this shouldn't be the main or determining factor for anyone, it is something interesting to consider when viewing everything in its entirety. We're already going a nonstandard route to keep Drizzle in the meta with a Complex banning, and we've already banned Manaphy and Thundurus...how long do we continue to chop off a limb here and there on Drizzle to keep it in the metagame? How important is keeping Drizzle actually in the overall scheme of things?)
  17. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
    is a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnus

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    well isn't this a bloody conundrum, i guess we're gonna start the general suspecting thread all over again

    i have seen similar arguments and am, to some extent, wont to agree. keldeo and thundurus-T are not even close to broken in any experience i've had. tornadus-T, and even more so genesect, are cutting it close, but i tend to err on the "not broken" side. yet rain offense is still one of the most powerful team variants of the era. i also agree that there is only one elegant way to excise the problem from OU, which is to ban drizzle itself. banning 2 or 3 mon+drizzle combinations is clumsy and i think it crosses too many lines. trying to encapsulate the concept of rain offense in a ban is impossible; definition is too fluffy. that really does leave only one option, which is to send politoed packing.

    however there is a fatal problem with banning drizzle from OU, even if we ignore the loss of styles like rainstall that are definitely not broken, and that problem is sun. there have been players who have considered sun the broken one in this metagame, not rain. well if you eliminate rain, that is definitely going to become even more defined. i would say sun is a much bigger threat to stall than rain is if we're arguing about playstyles. given this concern, the only solution that could be at all considered elegant is to ban both drought and drizzle together and see what happens if only sand and hail remain.

    there is also, of course, the very legitimate concern of destroying rain stall if drizzle is banned. definitely not a broken playstyle in any aspect, but it would be a certain casualty of eliminating drizzle from the tier. i have an easier time living with that than i do living with the idea of sun offense being uncontested, but that's an argument for another day.

    the bigger question really is whether or not rain offense, or sun offense, or any of their individual threats, are broken to begin with. i feel that if it can actually be established that they are overpowered, then the only possible solution is to ban both weathers and be done with it. but first it has to be established that rain offense is broken. that tornadus-T is not broken. that thundurus-T is not broken. that genesect is not broken. that keldeo (okay i think this one is the easiest) is not broken. this is a long road of testing.

    anyway i don't really know if i ultimately have an opinion on the brokenness of rain offense; i can find arguments within myself both for and against it... looks like it's up for discussion now though
  18. superbadd

    superbadd

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    I agree. Rain is becoming way too strong. I don't think it's rain as a whole it's tornadus-t. That thing is just way too powerful. Imagine giving darkrai a stab move with 120 power and prefect accuracy in the most powerful weather condition and a 30% chance to instill confusion. In rain keldeo and thunderus-t were kinda underwhelming. They're both really strong, but they lack enough speed to make them outright broken. Genesect is damn annoying in any weather it's in. If that thing reaches 30% usage(granted it will be #1) it's really worth looking at. My concern is genesect and tornadus-t, everything else is fine. But if drizzle has to go, all weather(minus hail) have to follow. Rain is what keeps Sand and sun HO from destroying everything. Banning one will lead to an imbalance and that's why I believe if one goes, all of them should too.
  19. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Rain itself is not broken. Tornadus-T itself is not broken. Keldeo itself is not broken. Thundurus-T itself is not broken. A combination of the four is broken. Problem lies in either banning Drizzle or making a complex ban involving all the elements above, also banning Drizzle would mean that you need to ban other weathers, not to mention that banning Drizzle would take out one of the elements that make Pokémon a so diverse game.
  20. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    2. Genesect is very metagame changing, but I wouldn't say its broken. 96 (or is it 97?) base speed isn't that great in an offensive-based metagame. It makes a great scarfer, but any good player can play around it. It's just the u-turn that makes it so versitile, that allows it to get switch initiative, but that's volt-turn in general and a lot of things can check genesect. Heatran for starters is a nice counter, but rotom-h also works (I actually used him to some success on a rain stall team to check sun, and it actually works). Genesect is also hard-checked by things like Scarf Landorus, Scarf Terrakion (or any Terrakion since Gene generally doesn't carry the steel type attack, and can't hit it at all). It's coverage is amazing, but not perfect. Scarf sets are easy to play around, especially with offensive protect variants like torn-t or protect terrakion / stall gliscor. Also, since gene is so fast, things like rotom-w can volt-switch after it u-turned and nab the switch advantage. Its wall breaking sets get outspeeded by a lot of common threats, and RP sets can't do much to stall. Finally, Genesect is very hard-pressed to do much of anything to sun unless by some miracle it pulls of a RP, and even then, things like heatran laugh at it. Just because its "damn annoying" doesn't make it ban worthy imo. This is up for debate as it IS metagame defining, but I'm not sure its broken as I find it manageable to deal with.


    3. Tornadus-T's STAB isn't that powerful. It's manageable. I can name a bunch of common OU pokes that can check / counter him, but you can read the analysis.
  21. tehy

    tehy

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    Personally,i always dread facing tornadus-t, and i would be F*CKING ECSTATIC if it were banned. And i honestly feel like it might be banworthy-stall has trouble really dealing with it because regenerator makes it really hard to stall out, and it's so fast that offense teams also have trouble with it, since they can only force it out with scarfers, and it can't be worn down by forcing it out.
  22. superbadd

    superbadd

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    Outcome(s) for banning rain, sun and sand

    Positives

    -Blaziken, Manaphy, Thunderus-I, and Excadrill can come back to ou.

    All of them were essentially too powerful due to the existing weather conditions that they thrived in best. Blaziken's counters could be 2HKo'd when it was at +2 in the sun,
    Excadrill was faster than everything, thunderus has access to more powerful stab, and manaphy has a 100% recovery move and was immune to status.

    -Donphan will drop to uu (uu will have its best spinner back)

    It's going to be outclassed as spinner by excadrill who A) is faster B) more powerful and
    C) Has a steel typing to be able to check dragons and D) can beat spin blockers

    -No more complex bans.

    SS+Drizzle and SV ban will no longer exist b/c
    weather will no longer exist.

    -More manageable pokemon.

    Tornadus will essentially be neutered, keldeo, volcarona, thunder-(I/T), genesect, jirachi, and landorus will all have a decrease in power.

    -Stall will become more viable.

    With less powerful threats, defensive teams can thrive and thus create diversity.

    -Hail will be the only weather

    Hail is perfectly manageable playstyle that doesn't really disrupt any sort of balance. In fact it makes pokemon like froslass and possibly regice viable in ou.
    This means ou won't be centered around the same pokes.

    Neutral

    Politoad, Ninetails, Gastrodon, Venusaur, Hippowdon and dugtrio (possibly jolteon) will all drop to lower tiers.

    All of these pokemon are ou for one thing and one thing only, weather. When that's gone, they will be too. While this may seem negative, lower tiers will actually benefit from them dropping.

    -Tyranitar will decrease in usage.

    It's insane special bulk will be gone meaning, you can take it out easier, at the same time it can't counter lati@s any more.

    -Chansey>Blissey

    Bliss is picked over chansey b/c the leftover recovery was vital due to residual damage caused by sand(and to a lesser extent hail) Blissey may switch usage levels with chansey.

    Negatives

    -A huge chunk of playstlyes will be taken out.

    It's no surprise that by taking weather you're going to rip out so many
    different strategies.

    -Underused pokemon that are ou viable because of weather won't be any more.

    Sand rush users, chlorophyll users and to a lesser extent SSers will no longer have a place in ou.


    These are just my thoughts about what will/should happen if weather is gone. -shrugs-

    Edit:
    @shurtugal I didn't say rain was broken, I didn't say genesect was broken. All I said is that they're worth being looked at.
    Tornadus-T has no definable counter, if under the right conditions, it can defeat its counters. For example, heat wave kills
    jirachi and bronzong in sun.
  23. tehy

    tehy

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    But in sun, it's got half-accuracy hurricanes. So, while i guess it CAN still do damage, it's not really all that threatening.

    More importantly, it can wear down Zong and u-turn on rachi to dugtrio. So there's that.

    Also, why are you talking about banning sand? Really, other than the two sand veilers, there are no really great abusers of those any more, and that would remove two good-on-their-own merit pokemon from the metagame.
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    I personally find it quite easy to deal with most rain offense teams. Lefties Rotom-W is usually a great check to such teams, and usually puts the pressure on them for all the game, as long as they lack Celebi / Amoonguss / Chansey / Blissey (Ferrothorn and the dragons are easily crippled by a WoW).

    My biggest problem in this meta is easily Genesect, which i feel is the most suspect worhty poke. As many have said before, i have played many battles where the game was decided by who kept his Gensesct alive longer, and in most games i play he is usually the most problematic poke for me to face. Does this mean it is broken? No. Does it mean that it deserves some serious consideration? Definitely!

    EDIT: Superbadd Thundurus-I wasn't banned because of rain, he was OP on his own.
  25. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Personally i think that banning all three of rain, sand and sun would make hail reign as it no longer has to deal with enemy weathers, and Abomasnow and friends are now free to spam their Blizzards and kill things. Although hail has problems on its own, it's biggest problem is certainly the other weathers and banning them would make life to hail much, much more easier. The metagame is always going to be centered around one weather unless you ban all of them, or if there is a diversity of weathers and another diversity of tools to all of them (wich is currently not happening).

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