BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

dragonuser

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Another huge benefit that Salamence has over Haxorus is his base 100 Speed. This lets him outspeed and OHKO Genesect (with Fire Blast), who is a very popular and effective Choice Scarfer. While Haxorus may have access to Superpower and Aqua Tail, Mence doesn't necessarily lack in coverage itself. With Fire Blast / Earthquake / Dragon Move / Brick Break Salamence can pretty much hit everything it needs to. Maybe Haxorus would do slightly better in Rain then Salamence would, but still. I feel like the abilities argument can be played both ways, as Salamence does have the ability to sweep easier but Haxorus does have the ability to spam moves like Earthquake easier, therefore predicting less. I do feel like Salamences higher Speed Stat still makes it a more effective Choice Scarfer in this metagame.
 
The mere fact that Salamence is faster than Genesect prevents Scarf Haxorus from outclassing Scarf Salamence, let alone Moxie and a Mach Punch resistance. Which reminds me; something I have seen very often lately on ladder is me leading with Scarf Salamence, and my opponent leading with Genesect. Nine times out of ten (anecdotally) the Genesect would switch out after my opponent noticed the lack of Intimidate. This is leading me to believe that now would be a good time for MixMence to make a comeback in order to take advantage of that kind of mindset, though I still think Scarf is Salamence's best set in this meta. (Dragon Dance is pretty good too. Seriously, outspeeding Scarf Genesect is such a plus over Dragonite. I'd recommend Dragon Gem Dragon Claw or Lum Outrage. Haban Berry might also worth considering once Garchomp inevitably drops down.)
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
The mere fact that Salamence is faster than Genesect prevents Scarf Haxorus from outclassing Scarf Salamence, let alone Moxie and a Mach Punch resistance. Which reminds me; something I have seen very often lately on ladder is me leading with Scarf Salamence, and my opponent leading with Genesect. Nine times out of ten (anecdotally) the Genesect would switch out after my opponent noticed the lack of Intimidate. This is leading me to believe that now would be a good time for MixMence to make a comeback in order to take advantage of that kind of mindset, though I still think Scarf is Salamence's best set in this meta. (Dragon Dance is pretty good too. Seriously, outspeeding Scarf Genesect is such a plus over Dragonite. I'd recommend Dragon Gem Dragon Claw or Lum Outrage. Haban Berry might also worth considering once Garchomp inevitably drops down.)
Yeah, this is actually a real strategy now that I've been playing around with on the ladder. I'm using a team that looks like it's built around a Scarf MoxieMence. Whenever I bring it straight into Genesect without batting an eye, the opponent will inevitably switch out (assuming they're not trash and don't know my team already). When this happens, I set up a DD and proceed to wreck face with the aid of a beastly Dragon Gem. Moxie essentially ends the game unless my opponent has a solid offensive answer to +1 DDMence, i.e. Scarf Latios. However, most teams rely on Genesect to do their revenge killing nowadays, which is an incredibly unreliable strategy in my opinion, simply because of the prevalence of stuff like MoxieMence, RP Landorus, etc.
 

Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
I want to discuss about Jirachi; I haven't seen people using non-Specially defensive (that set that counter any Tornadus not carrying Heat Wave) Jirachi and I want to know another set that could be viable AND amazing. I've tried to use SubCM but this fast-paced metagame usually doesn't allow me to sufficiently boost, not to mention that with less and less people using stall, the fact that SubCM can defeat any stall team (after you defeat Perish Songers and Ground and Fire-types that aren't weak to one of its coverage moves) is not as appealing. I've seen people saying that Jirachi is no longer viable outside more balanced or defensive teams. Is that true?
 

dragonuser

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Jirachi still works as a great Choice Scarfer in this metagame. It can outpace Genesect (which is everyones' favorite new Scarfer) and can run a wide range of coverage moves. Jirachi can serve as a scout and check to many Pokemon with a Choice Scarf, and worse come worse can flinch hax your opponent to death. With Trick it also isn't completely useless against stall, and can cripple an opposing wall.
 
I want to discuss about Jirachi; I haven't seen people using non-Specially defensive (that set that counter any Tornadus not carrying Heat Wave) Jirachi and I want to know another set that could be viable AND amazing. I've tried to use SubCM but this fast-paced metagame usually doesn't allow me to sufficiently boost, not to mention that with less and less people using stall, the fact that SubCM can defeat any stall team (until you defeat Perish Songers and Ground and Fire-types that aren't weak to one of its coverage moves) is not as appealing. I've seen people saying that Jirachi is no longer viable outside more balanced or defensive teams. Is that true?
No way, at least not in my opinion. From what I have used of SubCM, it is still amazing. Being able to counter Tornadus-T in rain and set up is great, and easy to do. Since there are a lot of Gastodon's and Lanturn's around to counter Thundurus I would change the set from Substitute/Calm Mind/Thunder/Water Pulse, to something like Substitute/Calm Mind/Thunder/Psychic. This allows you to beat these counters. (If gasto doesn't have EQ)

Another set I have seen a lot of is scarf. With Genesect being the most used scarfer, Scarf Jirachi can catch out a lot of them and KO with Fire Punch, outside this it is very good at spamming Iron Head or being able to U-turn on the prediction, and it can trick if you need to trick something bothering you. Last note: Iron Head is the second most annoying move in the game

Sp.D is amazing and will be as long as pokemon such as Laitos/Lati@s/Tornadus-T etc, are around. Being one of the few counters to so many Special threats is a great bonus to any team.

Problems I can see with Jirachi in this meta is Dugtrio is a menace. It is everywhere and is easily able to trap Jirachi and KO it with EQ. Also with Landorus's sheer force ability coming out and Keldeo being so powerful, Jirachi isn't countering the amount of threats it used too.
 
I tried out a home made jirachi set recently, It was pretty much specially defensive jirachi but I shoved all the specially defensive EVs into attack instead. Mostly because I want to actually do significant damage while para-flinching. It makes the damage go by faster so I don't have to hit them as many times, drastically reducing the possibility of the opponent hitting me because it takes fewer turns to kill them. It's been fairly successful and the rest of my team definitely appreciates the para support on top of that.
 

Joeyboy

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Yeah, this is actually a real strategy now that I've been playing around with on the ladder. I'm using a team that looks like it's built around a Scarf MoxieMence. Whenever I bring it straight into Genesect without batting an eye, the opponent will inevitably switch out (assuming they're not trash and don't know my team already). When this happens, I set up a DD and proceed to wreck face with the aid of a beastly Dragon Gem. Moxie essentially ends the game unless my opponent has a solid offensive answer to +1 DDMence, i.e. Scarf Latios. However, most teams rely on Genesect to do their revenge killing nowadays, which is an incredibly unreliable strategy in my opinion, simply because of the prevalence of stuff like MoxieMence, RP Landorus, etc.
Definitely agreed; DD Salamence is probably my favorite set atm. I've been using Lum Outrage though, but thats simply because I've never been a huge fan of Dragon Gem. My entire team atm is built around abusing the fact that everyone's just been relying on Scarf Genesect to do their revenging. Its been working well so far.

Also SD Lucario is so good right now. I don't know if people have forgotten about it or something but seriously its sweeps so often. I run Bullet Punch as the final coverage and while Jellicent is a huge deterrent, at +2 it OHKOs so much of the meta.
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
Also SD Lucario is so good right now. I don't know if people have forgotten about it or something but seriously its sweeps so often. I run Bullet Punch as the final coverage and while Jellicent is a huge deterrent, at +2 it OHKOs so much of the meta.
Yes. Lucario is such a huge metagame threat, and with Genesect locked into Ice Beam for days, it can get some super easy setup. I also run double priority, and haven't found Jellicent to be much of a problem, most likely due to the fact that I'm running BandTar alongside Luc so it can do some work and not have to worry about Jellicent, Politoed, Slowbro, and other assorted defensive Pokemon. Give that a try and see how it works for you.
 
I find pairing salamence with wobbuffet is one of the perfect supporters for him. It does a combination of setting the stage for a DD with encore or eliminating faster scarfers, though he's often limited to just one of the two a match because of how prevalent u-turn is. Wobb hates super effective hits. It isn't hard to have your team eliminate mence's counters and when your DD is almost guaranteed a sweep isn't hard.
 
I find pairing salamence with wobbuffet is one of the perfect supporters for him. It does a combination of setting the stage for a DD with encore or eliminating faster scarfers, though he's often limited to just one of the two a match because of how prevalent u-turn is. Wobb hates super effective hits. It isn't hard to have your team eliminate mence's counters and when your DD is almost guaranteed a sweep isn't hard.
Well, try using SD luke along Wobbuffet. Lucario resists all the weaknesses of Wobb and a dark attack is a free +1. And nobody wants to give Lucario a free turn, with wobb giving support. (encoring, eliminating scarfers)
 

BurningMan

fueled by beer
Yes. Lucario is such a huge metagame threat, and with Genesect locked into Ice Beam for days, it can get some super easy setup. I also run double priority, and haven't found Jellicent to be much of a problem, most likely due to the fact that I'm running BandTar alongside Luc so it can do some work and not have to worry about Jellicent, Politoed, Slowbro, and other assorted defensive Pokemon. Give that a try and see how it works for you.
while Genesect may be a set-up opportunity its also a pretty good check as long as it is healthy.
 
Looks like Garchomp is back, and Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are gone. As much as I hate to see Hail take a hit when it needs all it can get and then some to be viable, I guess it had to be done.
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
Garchomp is back.

Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are banned.

Justice has been restored to the OU metagame.

Thank your friendly local suspect voters for ensuring a fair, hax-free metagame for all to share in.

Honestly I don't think Chomp's release is going to affect the metagame all that much. All the recent bans really did was offer decent players a little peace of mind - now we don't have to worry about Sand Veil Gliscor and Snow Cloak Froslass/Mamoswine, all of which have cost me few games in the past due to bs misshax. I really don't believe anyone will miss these things being absent from the metagame. Anyways they're gone and the Chomp boss is back PARTY PARTY PARTY :toast:
 

alexwolf

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Now all we have to do is ban Genesect, and then i will be able to say that we have a semi-balanced metagame.
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
Now all we have to do is ban Genesect, and then i will be able to say that we have a semi-balanced metagame.
I'd say Genesect is actually pretty healthy for the metagame. We ban that thing, and it's just gonna be Dragonite and Scizor all over again. BW1 was pretty bad, but I see potential in BW2. I don't think banning Genesect is the right move for the current meta. Once Tornadus-T is out of the way, I'll think about it.
 
The one thing that sticks out for me is Spore, but I know a lot of people will disagree with me here. BW sleep was already pretty scary, but now the best sleep move in the game has two competent OU users, both of which can pretty much be 95% sure it will go off, it has a turned into an automatic 6-5 machine. Yes, you can run Lum Berry, or Natural Cure, or Hydration, but the former is one-use-only and the latter two are very predictable and honestly easily avoided by a competent player. Celebi is the only Natural Cure user I can think of that doesn't really mind most of Breloom's moves, but it's still going to end up switching most of the time because giving Breloom free turns is exceptionally dangerous, so you can easily click Spore and congratulations, all you have to do is keep momentum and you've effectively gotten a free kill. The only reliabel ways to beat Sleep are Heal Bell and Toxic/Flame Orb, but they're not always easy to fit on a team and most of the users lose to Breloom 1v1...
It seems like sleep is accepted only because it's been around so long that everybody is used to being forced to play 1 Pokemon down, but it strikes me as a somewhat ridiculous strategy.
 
Garchomp back in OU is only something I witnessed today. And I'm disappointed. While I'm glad people will finally shut up about Snow Cloak and Sand Veil thanks to Evasion Clause, I am going to wonder why every Pokemon who has Sand Veil or Snow Cloak has an infinitely better ability in the first place (Good Dugtrio runs Arena Trap, not Sand Veil; good Froslass runs Cursed Body, not Snow Cloak). Even Cacturne gets a better ability out of this (now no Water-type attacks threaten to OHKO/2HKO it on the switch; Cac was a little frail to begin with)!

Hopefully, this adolescent "free everything that's currently banned in BW2" phase stops immediately after this. If not, I fear for how disastrous the other stuff will turn out. I do not want to see any more Pokemon being unbanned from a tier they were flat-out broken in from the jump. The entire point of banning these Pokemon was to help keep the tiers balanced - unbanning stuff like Blaziken would just re-introduce problems that came with it. Even if there was one ban I disagree with, I would probably regret trying to free the Pokemon as chances are it will just get banned again. Which is a colossal waste of time. Hopefully what happened with Garchomp never happens again.

That said, I'd have a list of possible Suspect candidates, but at the moment I will need to effectively test all of the Pokemon on my mind before I get started.
 
One tear slides down the cheek of Hail, watching Snow Cloak leave.

But We got Chomp back. Would be willing to bet Chomp will be top 10 this month(everyone playing with him) before settling in the high teens.
 
Dang straight it'll be top 10. I'd even wager that this far into October, Garchomp'll be in number 3.

SHARK WEEK VERSION 2, SMOGON STYLE!!!
 


Loving the fact Garchomp is now OU once again. While I don't see Garchomp being a huge impact on the metagame, I certainly think this is a very positive direction.

brb getting beer
 

alexwolf

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I'd say Genesect is actually pretty healthy for the metagame. We ban that thing, and it's just gonna be Dragonite and Scizor all over again. BW1 was pretty bad, but I see potential in BW2. I don't think banning Genesect is the right move for the current meta. Once Tornadus-T is out of the way, I'll think about it.
What is bad about Scizor? Now it is all Genesect, and wihtout him it will be all Scizor. We have had him for 2 full gens and he is fine. Dragonite you say? Ton of checks, including many scarfers, such as Terrakion, Rotom-W, Jirachi and Landorus. I don't see one healthy thing Genesect does in OU. Exept from making Deoxys-D's life harder...

Garchomp is here to stay, a dream coming true!
 
am I the only one who's actually drinking because Garchomp is legal now?
Well considering the amount of people on smogon <21 (that is right U.S. centric)

I am not excited about Garchomp's return to OU. OU already has an assortment of Dragons that can smash there way past everything and this just adds to the stress of incorporating multiple Steel's on a team or more relevantly a Scarfer. The meta is definitely is going to take a much more offensive direction than it is now with Garchomp's release. Effectively, HO teams have acquired another way to prevent Rapid Spin with Rough Skin Garchomp. Rocky Helmet+Substitute is going to be quite an interesting set to incoporate on an HO team. Not only can you prevent Rapid Spin from spinners with <25% but you can deter certain slower targets from breaking your Substitute!

Let me explain to you this little trick: If you have a Pokemon that can check Garchomp but with a contact move (for example Gyro Ball Forretress) you can spam Substitute until the target is either in KO'ing range for Outrage/EQ or the target feels pressureed to switch out. The opponent is put into a connumdrum: do I let Garchomp get a free substitute or did I prevent the Substitute from going up in exchange for one of my Pokes dying? Coupled with some nifty Sandstorm support and you can prevent many Pokemon offsetting Rocky Helmet+Rough Skin with Leftovers.

get ready people we are in for a wild ride!
 

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