BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Dark Fallen Angel]

To me, lowering defense IVs to make your physical Defense lower than your Special Defense just to avoid giving a boost to Genesect's Special Attack is a desesperate attitude, especially considering that Hippowdon is one of the best physical walls, and, as Nachos said, you are sacrificing a physical defense that is needed to cushion Outrages, Bullet Punches, Close Combats, etc. Sure, Genesect may be broken, omnipresent and all things that you can call him, but Genesect is just another threat in the metagame. You must prepare for as much threats as possible, not just one. But if Genesect is broken to this point, I'm favorable to its banishment so that people stop doing crazy things like this. I'm sorry if I am sounding aggressive, but I agree with Nachos: Genesect, as omnipresent as it is, doesn't justify (alone) lowering the bulk from things that have an amazing bulk.

 

[Ithilanor]

It's a difference of 6 points out of 272 (about a 2% drop). That's hardly desperate.

 

[Lavos]

To me, lowering defense IVs to make your physical Defense lower than your Special Defense just to avoid giving a boost to Genesect's Special Attack is a desesperate attitude, especially considering that Hippowdon is one of the best physical walls, and, as Nachos said, you are sacrificing a physical defense that is needed to cushion Outrages, Bullet Punches, Close Combats, etc. Sure, Genesect may be broken, omnipresent and all things that you can call him, but Genesect is just another threat in the metagame. You must prepare for as much threats as possible, not just one. But if Genesect is broken to this point, I'm favorable to its banishment so that people stop doing crazy things like this. I'm sorry if I am sounding aggressive, but I agree with Nachos: Genesect, as omnipresent as it is, doesn't justify (alone) lowering the bulk from things that have an amazing bulk.

You are missing the point. First of all, if like you say 6 defense points "sacrifices" your cushion against Terrakion, Scizor, etc., then your team is probably going to have another answer to those threats. If a particular team's Hippowdon was meant to be a full physical wall it would be running a physical EV spread and this discussion would not be taking place. Also, in your own words, Genesect is "just another threat", and we must "prepare for" this threat. That's what we're doing here. Lowering SDef Hippowdon's Defense IV to 25 is in preparation of a Genesect lead. It just plain makes sense to do this. If you can find calculations where the 6 defense points lost actually matter in the case of SDef Hippowdon, I will be more than happy to back up your argument. Until then, I stand by my previous position: adapting Hippowdon's IVs to prevent it being 2HKO'd by Genesect is a good idea.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

But people aren't doing this only with Hippowdon. In previous page, there are posts of people saying that they are lowering defense IVs from Garchomp to make its Special Defense higher than its physical Defense, same reason as Hippowdon. I'm beginning to think that people will do this with all Pokémon. And no matter how small is the difference, is never a good idea to lower a Pokémon's defenses unless on Pokémon that use both physical and special attacks and can't afford to lower their Speed. You never know when the lower defenses will make a difference in battle.

I just want to say that if weren't for Genesect, you wouldn't be lowering Hippowdon's physical defense.

 

[Lee]

you are sacrificing a physical defense that is needed to cushion Outrages, Bullet Punches, Close Combats, etc

you are sacrificing almost nothing; you clearly have no idea how the damage formula works.

Scizor CB BP vs 252/0 Hippowdon (31 IV) = 36.43% on avg
Scizor CB BP vs 252/0 Hippowdon (25 IV) = 36.67% on avg

yeah. it's that much

 

[Lavos]

But people aren't doing this only with Hippowdon. In previous page, there are posts of people saying that they are lowering defense IVs from Garchomp to make its Special Defense higher than its physical Defense, same reason as Hippowdon. I'm beginning to think that people will do this with all Pokémon. And no matter how small is the difference, is never a good idea to lower a Pokémon's defenses unless on Pokémon that use both physical and special attacks and can't afford to lower their Speed. You never know when the lower defenses will make a difference in battle.

Actually, yeah, I'm the person who started the idea of lowering SD YacheChomp's Defense IV to 11 to force Genesect to receive an Attack boost so that Ice Beam will only do about 70% maximum. It's a good idea and has made the difference in many different battles for me. I doubt people will start doing this with all Pokemon, as you fear, because it's only necessary and useful for a few select cases. However, in those select cases, it just plain makes sense to adjust IVs so that Genesect doesn't do serious work to your team. Maybe this means Genesect is overcentralizing the metagame; I'm not one to judge, but it's a definite possibility. However, the fact remains that Genesect is one of the most used leads and revenge killers in the metagame, and its ability Download is precisely what makes it so deadly. I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of Defense on Hippowdon or Garchomp if it means I'll be able to check the mighty bug of BW2.

 

[Kidogo]

I think the point here is that in practice, 6 stat points will never make any difference in any stat except speed. The one exception is Download, an ability that specifically chooses the higher of two stats--and higher by 1 point is enough to make the difference. So when a pokemon already has stats that are nearly identical, like hippo, there is basically no sacrifice in exchange for a significant bonus against a particular pokemon. The fact that hippo and genesect often end up facing off just makes this bonus more valuable. Nevertheless, this bonus would not be worth the sacrifice of a significant amount of physical defense--that is why this point was brought up about SpD Hippo, where the difference literally is insignificant.

EDIT: ninja'd. Basically the exact same case for chomp, 20 IVs is a slightly more significant sacrifice but still less important than guaranteeing you survive an attack from one of the most common checks, and even if not, people don't have to use it then, but it's not over-centralizing or broken or wrong or anything. That's like saying celebi running 16 Spe solely to outrun adamant breloom is over-centralizing because its forcing them to run speed which is wasted EVs against anything other than loom instead of getting 4 extra HP points. It's a cost-benefit and whatever makes sense strategically is the best option.

 

[Nachos]

With Garchomp, I can sort of see where you're coming from. Really lowering Garchomp's stellar defenses is more of a "trump card" type deal, and with Genesect being downright omnipresent, why not?

but with Haxorus? The loss in bulk is hardly detrimental. Unlike Garchomp, Haxorus is fairly frail by OU standards. 76 / 90 on the physical side are still pretty lame, and even -20 Def (which is a ways better than a -def nature mind you!) You're still getting OHKOed/2HKOed by things that would ordinarily OHKO / 2HKO, with some exceptions that I can't seem to remember atm. I use that particular set because I find it to be more conducive to the current metagame where your likely to be revenge killed by a Genesect (Omnipresent) or strong special attackers as opposed to physical ones. In your Genesect example, it's not that big deal of a if they happen to U-turn out as they're basically guaranteeing that a random member of their team dies (and Genesect eats extra hazard damage, score) and +1 U-turn does a bit more than Ice Beam, but not enough to kill. The point is, no matter what Scarf Genesect does it cannot OHKO Haxorus, which is kind of a big deal imo.

Alright, I ran a few calcs. I admit that for Haxorus, dropping your defense by 20 points isn't a big deal, and I while I still think surviving a random physical move due to its okay defense is what I prefer, I'll still give you the win as the def drop isn't that big of a deal. But, I still stand with what I said on Garchomp - that sacrificing something with that high of a bulk for the sake of one pokemon, no matter how common it is, is almost a crime.

To give an example, you're almost guaranteed to be OHKOed after Stealth Rock by a CBTerrakion's Close Combat if you run 11. With 31, you have a good chance to survive.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Actually, yeah, I'm the person who started the idea of lowering SD YacheChomp's Defense IV to 11 to force Genesect to receive an Attack boost so that Ice Beam will only do about 70% maximum. It's a good idea and has made the difference in many different battles for me. I doubt people will start doing this with all Pokemon, as you fear, because it's only necessary and useful for a few select cases. However, in those select cases, it just plain makes sense to adjust IVs so that Genesect doesn't do serious work to your team. Maybe this means Genesect is overcentralizing the metagame; I'm not one to judge, but it's a definite possibility. However, the fact remains that Genesect is one of the most used leads and revenge killers in the metagame, and its ability Download is precisely what makes it so deadly. I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of Defense on Hippowdon or Garchomp if it means I'll be able to check the mighty bug of BW2.

That's what I want to say. You wouldn't be lowering Hippowdon's defenses if weren't for Genesect, or you would lower a pokémon's defenses whenever you wanted only because that wouldn't matter?

In case of Celebi, there is a difference between lowering your stats and increasing them. Even though your main target is Adamant Breloom, maybe that 16 speed points wouldn't matter against other cases? I am using a Tinkerbell Celebi set but I've put enough speed to outspeed Adamant Lucario, but the extra speed also helped me with other cases. What I want to say is that lowering a stat hardly would help with other cases (Porygon2?), but increasing that stat, maybe.

All that I want is to say that Nachos is right and that there is little to no reason to diminish Hippowdon and Garchomp's (and other pokémon that you may have the idea to do this) physical defense. The only reason has a name: Genesect. If you are doing this because of him, and you are using Shed Shell on Heatran to escape from Dugtrio's dirty hands (Dugtrio existed before and people didn't used Shed Shell on Heatran only because of him, they are doing this because of a reason that involves Genesect), then Genesect in fact is overcentralizing the metagame.

 

[Lork]

you are sacrificing almost nothing; you clearly have no idea how the damage formula works.

Scizor CB BP vs 252/0 Hippowdon (31 IV) = 36.43% on avg
Scizor CB BP vs 252/0 Hippowdon (25 IV) = 36.67% on avg

yeah. it's that much

that is crazy. surely cased closed.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Is not that I don't have idea how the damage formula works. Is that I am not willing to sacrifice even a little of bulk just because of a threat, no matter how omnipresent is that threat. I've also already given other points above. If to you, this makes a difference, then go a head and do this. But decreased bulk, unlike increased speed or bulk, hardly will help in other cases, and actually can make a difference, such as in case of Garchomp that Nachos cited above.

Also, to those that argue that this less bulk hardly makes a difference; Even with Cloyster's low special bulk, are you going to use a Special Defense-hindering nature (if you opt to use Razor Shell instead of Hydro Pump) just because that would hardly matter? Outside of Genesect, lowering defenses is not necessary.

 

[Roie]

6ivs for a 30% reduction in damage sounds like a good tradeoff. I don't think you should live in a world where genesect should be banned. You should live in a world where genesect exists.
Arguing that genesect is broken and using this Hippowdon iv thing as evidence is not very good. It would be a good argument to maintain a ban on an already banned genesect. But that isn't the case.

 

[ssbbm]

Is not that I don't have idea how the damage formula works. Is that I am not willing to sacrifice even a little of bulk just because of a threat, no matter how omnipresent is that threat. I've also already given other points above. If to you, this makes a difference, then go a head and do this. But decreased bulk, unlike increased speed or bulk, hardly will help in other cases, and actually can make a difference, such as in case of Garchomp that Nachos cited above.

Also, to those that argue that this less bulk hardly makes a difference; Even with Cloyster's low special bulk, are you going to use a Special Defense-hindering nature (if you opt to use Razor Shell instead of Hydro Pump) just because that would hardly matter? Outside of Genesect, lowering defenses is not necessary.

that's like whining "i think tyranitar is broken because it forces me to run hp fighting on latios when i could be running hp fire, and hp fighting isn't necessary in any other case!" you adapt your team to the metagame; don't assume that just because you want to run something that you can.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

that's like whining "i think tyranitar is broken because it forces me to run hp fighting on latios when i could be running hp fire, and hp fighting isn't necessary in any other case!" you adapt your team to the metagame; don't assume that just because you want to run something that you can.

I want to clarify some things. First, I think that this thing of lowering IVs is not the only thing that makes Genesect broken. Even I am willing to believe that Genesect is not broken, considering its troll base 99 speed and the fact that it gets worn down by entry hazards, not to mention that your opponent can control if your Genesect gets an (Special) Attack boost from Download.

However, when people, apart from lowering IVs to have SpD higher than Def:

• run Shed Shell on Heatran (Dugtrio existed before, but people are only using Shed Shell now because Dugtrio sees more use as it can take down Heatran, wich is Genesect's main counter, a proof of Genesect's omnipresence);
• Really care about placing that 4 remaining EV points in SpD to give Genesect an attack boost, when before, it wouldn't matter even a little where you put that 4 EVs;
• Start to use things like Rotom-H. Rotom-H is not a bad pokémon, but I've heard of people using it even on rain teams because of Genesect, although this was only on rain stall, that is not a very viable playstyle. Still, Rotom-H is occupying a place that should be of Rotom-W.

There are also some other factors. Great coverage by itself is one of them, and while it by itself doesn't make Genesect broken, combined with its great tipying, its Download ability, and great attacking stats, make Genesect at least very formidable. I'm certain that Genesect wouldn't be what it is now if it had a shallow movepool (for example, lacking one or both parts of BoltBeam and/or a Fire-type attack).

And its Download ability is actually great despite what I've said above. Combined with other factors, it forces people to do things like lowering IVs, to control which boost Download will grab.

I'm sorry if it looked like I was only complaining about that question of lowering IVs, or if I am wanting to cause trouble or if I'm not accepting what you guys are saying. But for me, people saying that they are doing this, seemed a tremendous absurd.

 

[Leader Fox]

just to note that Under a Sub rough skin does not activate, making gyro ball forretress spamming until you wasted all you HP

 

[Tobes]

Why the fuck are people so up in arms about people "having" to manipulate their IVs in order to take advantage of Genesect? It's no different than choosing to run a Naive on a mixed sweeper, sacrificing bulk for more power, rather than running say Jolly and maintaining that negligible amount of bulk. People are not being forced to make these adjustments. They're doing them because they've weighed the positives and negatives of the change and decided the benefit outweighed the cost. It has literally fucking nothing to do with Genesect being "broken". So please, everyone drop this line of debate, because it is actively detracting from this thread for no benefit.

 

[TLK]

Is not that I don't have idea how the damage formula works. Is that I am not willing to sacrifice even a little of bulk just because of a threat, no matter how omnipresent is that threat. I've also already given other points above. If to you, this makes a difference, then go a head and do this. But decreased bulk, unlike increased speed or bulk, hardly will help in other cases, and actually can make a difference, such as in case of Garchomp that Nachos cited above.

Also, to those that argue that this less bulk hardly makes a difference; Even with Cloyster's low special bulk, are you going to use a Special Defense-hindering nature (if you opt to use Razor Shell instead of Hydro Pump) just because that would hardly matter? Outside of Genesect, lowering defenses is not necessary.

Eh, it's no different to 4th gen when Skarmory used to run a bit of speed to outrun certain threats like CB Tyranitar (thus lowering it's defence by not fully investing). It's just adapting to whatever threats in the metagame and lowering Hippowdon's IV's by such a small margin is in no way indicative that Genesect is broken.

 

[Lavos]

all hail tobes, bringer of good sense to the megathread

 

[faint]

your last post

buddy, everything you just mentioned is exactly what happened when scizor became ou. EVERYTHING started running hp fire just to take it on. when you have a new threat stuff is going to change. it's a metagame shift. life with it. accept it. use it to your advantage.

 

[Ithilanor]

all hail tobes, bringer of good sense to the megathread

This. Thank you, tobes.

just to note that Under a Sub rough skin does not activate, making gyro ball forretress spamming until you wasted all you HP

Just noticed this, which makes the idea of a Rocky Helmet+Sub set for Garchomp pretty bad. Oh well.

 

[ginganinja]

-run Shed Shell on Heatran (Dugtrio existed before, but people are only using Shed Shell now because Dugtrio sees more use as it can take down Heatran, wich is Genesect's main counter, a proof of Genesect's omnipresence);

-Really care about placing that 4 remaining EV points in SpD to give Genesect an attack boost, when before, it wouldn't matter even a little where you put that 4 EVs;

-Start to use things like Rotom-H. Rotom-H is not a bad pokémon, but I've heard of people using it even on rain teams because of Genesect, although this was only on rain stall, that is not a very viable playstyle. Still, Rotom-H is occupying a place that should be of Rotom-W.

This is pointless, none of this really means that Genesect is broken. I am going to go through and address your points one by one.

Firstly, Genesect isn't "forcing" people to run Shed Shell Heatran, Genesect + Dugtrio is a combination, its not proof of a pokemon being overpowered or broken, they just work well together. By your argument, I could claim Scarf Sand Force Landorus is broken because it can U-Turn out of Skarmory (its best counter) and bring in Magnezone to trap and kill, or I guess I could run Scizor (heck i could fucking scarf it), and lure in Heatran U-Turn out to Dugtrio and boom, I did the same thing your Genesect did. Genesect + Dugtrio is just a fucking combination thats seeing success, and Shed SHell Heatran is a result of people adapting to this overused combination and shutting it down. This doesn't really prove Genesect is broken.

Secondly, those 4 Evs you mentioned, a spare, no-one really cares where they go, and you claim Genesect encouraging people to use there brain when making an EV spread is a bad thing? Porygon-Z did the same thing in the early stages of Gen IV (according to some of the old analysis anyway) and I didn't see anyone calling it broken in the higher tiers.

Thirdly, Rotom-H is being used as a check towards GeneSun, a common version of the standard Sun team. Sure, Genesect features on the team, but thats not the point, Rotom-H is a simple, "niche" pokemon thats being used to counter random shit. This happens. Just look at Gecs BW1 team that uses fucking Grumpig to check sun teams, or the Lanturn fad a few pages back. These niche pokemon see use in OU somtimes because they are good in the current metagame, and heck, seeing a few niche pokemon in OU I don't see as a bad thing, in fact I think the Dark Horse challenge is encouraging this stuff, but regardless, its just people adapting to the metagame as a whole, I still don't see where you are getting this "Genesect is broken because of Rotom-H seeing more that 1% usage" argument on. Heck, Princess Brii was running Golurk to check Terrakion on his Hail Team, Doom and I ran Claydol on our sun teams to check Terrakion, do we call Terrakion broken too?

Bottom Line- Most of this shit is just metagame adaptation, its not really a reason to ban Genesect.

 

[lokt]

I agree with Dark Fallen Angel, genesect is broken. However, I do not agree that rotom-h, ev placement, etc. shows that it's broken. The main reason it's broken is that it is so versatile and it has amazing coverage. It can run eb, scarf,cb, or rp.The rock polish set (modest lo, with thunder, ice beam, bug buzz) completly destroys offensive and balanced teams w/out chansey or sp.defensive heatran after one turn of set up if it gets the sp.atk boost.Genesect easily outspeeds every scarfer commonly found on offensive teams nd isn't weak to priority. The only pokemon commonly found on offensive teams that can take a hit after SR and a layer of spikes are magnezone, and ninetales(offensive heatran is ko'd). I also feel that eb genesect is overwhelming to face with a balanced team. It is so easy to bluff a scarf with genesect, and it's coverage destroys a balanced team once heatran/chansey is removed.

 

[Lavos]

Genesect would potentially be broken if more people ran it alongside Dugtrio...why they don't is beyond me, it's Genesect's best partner, eliminates its #1 counter (Heatran) and also lets it take advantage of weather starters and the like that may attempt to switch in. Basically everything that might have a chance against Genesect is wrecked by Dugtrio, and a lot of things that Dugtrio can't touch, Genesect covers nicely.

This is normally where I would tell the people of Smogon to use Genesect + Dugtrio more, but I want the former to stay OU, so...

 

[yee]

Please everyone instead of running 11 def IVs on Chomp, just run 84 SpD evs- I know this metagame is ridiculously stupid to the point where Shed Shell resttalk Tran is accepted as a set but let's try not to waste talent with Chomp that can be used to tank Bullet Punches and Close Combats when there's a more reasonable route that doesn't sacrifice so many points.

 

[ssbbm]

is that worth losing 21 Atk Points? that's almost 10% of garchomp's attacking power!

i don't think genesect is broken - it's certainly a very good pokemon, and it sure does define the metagame, but it's not like you have an auto-loss if the other team runs it, because it isn't going to sweep you; at best it will revenge and wear down your team.

it's not like excadrill / blaziken, nor is it like deoxys-s. if anything, it is simply a very good scarf-jirachi. personally, i don't think this entails banishment.