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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    Arguments listed in bold. I'm slowly wondering how many gimmicks it takes to beat Genesect before people start to just realize it's completely bonkers. I already view it to be broken just from having played it in OU, both using it on my team (VoltTurn teams are only fun when Genesect makes them usable) and seeing it be used against me (where my Heatran then gets rocked either by causing a switch-in to the opposing Heatran or from getting dunked by a coverage move in of itself; gdi SpA boost Downloads).
  2. StairFall

    StairFall

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    if genetrio makes heatran less viable, then heatran is less viable in the metagame. When new threats make parts of the meta obsolete then they stop being a good part of the meta and fall in usage. If a powerful new threat needs new counters and makes old pokemon less usable than the meta will adjust. Heatran having to run shed shell isn't a sign genesect is broken, it's a sign that the metagame has changed. Genesect isn't broken because it made some things less viable and less used pokemon have a small niche in countering it, that's like basic change. He wasn't going to fit right into the metagame seemlessly, a powerful new threat means things will change.
  3. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    Who runs HP Ground on Genesect? Well, it is an useful gimmick, but alongside other gimmicks if played wrong, is a loss of a moveslot. I am more afraid of Expert Belt Genesect, Heatran walls it again, but without it or using another mons it can take by surprise and severaly damage or KO an unexpected thing.
    HP Ground even is a KO 87,5 of the time with SR, Heatran without any HP and Sp Def investment and Gene +1

    This is the time when some of us hate Game Freak because they crippled ResTalk strategy by the new sleep mechanics.

    ResTalk Heatran has also an utility, Sleep Absorber, Sleep Powder Venusaur, I am looking at you, and Heatran has a good defensive typing anyways and great usefulness against Sun teams.


    Coming back to Genesect, I have seen many battles in which most of them, both leads were the same, Genesect. It remainds me to Deoxys-S era.
  4. tehy

    tehy

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    No, he means eviolite chansey, which misses lefties.

    Actually, after hearing alexwolf talk, he kind of has a point, but i'm still unsure. I wish like hell that genesect would GTFO;but i'm not really sure that it SHOULD gtfo. Maybe we could just compromise and let tornadus-T die a horrible, fiery death? Be nice.
  5. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    "Either he or Dugtrio has to be banned from OU, and I'm thinking Genesect is the problem."

    I am going to repeat, Dugtrio existed before and even then people didn't used Shed Shell on Heatran. They are using now because Dugtrio is seeing more use as it take out Genesect's main counter, Heatran. They need to mantain Heatran alive to counter Genesect, wich is impossible when it U-Turns to Dugtrio unless Heatran use Shed Shell. Even then, is impossible to not take into account the fact that you are going to take a lot of damage from hazards by doing this.

    There are people saying that all of this is just metagame adaptation. I agree, this is just metagame adaptation... around one pokémon! Isn't that strange?
  6. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    I tried EB HP Ground Genesect on a sun team, and I got to say It was disappointing. I never ran into too many Heatran and I always seemed to need whichever coverage I forgo'ed. I don't recommend it really, but maybe I just didn't use it right IDK. Giga Drain on the RP set works wounder though, stopping things like Terrakion in its track.
  7. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    I should read carefully before answering, but his post was a bit confusing too.


    About Gene, I was very surprised when I faced it about his lack of power. Without the right coverage move or boost he doesn't hit THAT hard.
    In lategame it is more important to have neutral coverage or powerful STAB such as Close Combat that being locked in a single attack.

    Spamming U-turn is trollish but with SR is going to keep on doing it until 8-9 times, not to mention Spikes, Rapid Spin well, but Jelli is still the best antispinner and it is a loss of momentum.

    Not to talk about its lack of bulk, well, it is not frail, but without any investment in HP and defenses, it is not bulky either, however resisting Bullet Punch helps and, unless is running Rock Polish, Nature +Spd is necessary.

    It is also counted by Terrakion if it doesn't carry Giga Drain, losing coverage(it is still 2KO +1, worse in Sand) and Volcarona(but I hardly say Volcarona counters nothing with the presence of SR and his U-turn, but even +0 isn't a 2KO with Rocks).

    I am more worried about Tornadus-T Hurricane spam and/or hax and Taunt the pink blobs than Gene.

    I think the most threatening sets of Gene right now are the Expert Belt and Rock Polish. Rock Polish is mainly suited for the lategame, because it don't usually has U-turn, which seems crazy, and Expert Belt because severaly damages or KO's unexpected things expecting setup/spike/recover fodder. Like most aspects of the game, people tend to think the set they are facing is the most common, because the probability is higher and the risk lower.

    Gene can bluff easily Expert Belt due its speed. I also think Earth Gem with Hidden Power Ground is worth trying if using Hidden Power.
  8. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Knew you would take that one sentence and twist it all out of proportion. Scizor is a completely different case, it's too slow to U-Turn out of all of its checks/counters and a whole lot of its time is spent being locked into moves such as Bullet Punch, Pursuit, and Superpower, a trait that Genesect does not share, especially if it's running an Expert Belt set. I'm not suggesting that Genesect simply having U-Turn is a good enough reason to ban it; rather, I'm suggesting that having the ability to escape all of its checks/counters with the simple click of a button is a factor in its brokenness. Hopefully you'll reconsider your position after hearing this.
  9. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    I find that the combination I use of Sableye and Volcarona does quite nicely at murdering Genesect. People have the nasty habit of leading with Genesect, and I lead with Sableye a lot of the time if I see one. They get an Attack boost, And attempt to U-turn out, before which I proceed to burn them, neutering their prime move and adding residual damage. If they specially attack me, I still burn them, take less than half my health, and possibly lock them into a move (if it's Scarf) that Volcarona resists and can use to set up on. Having a max Speed, Volcarona, after one Quiver Dance even Scarf Genesect is rendered useless.

    The fact that Garchomp is free makes revenging Genesect easier as well.......
  10. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    I don't think good players are going to do that against Gene, it seems done by players who are going to U-turn without thinking, in a foolish way, even when a crowd of people shouts The opposing Salamence is +Spd Scarfed and it is going to use Flamethrower!
  11. Leader Fox

    Leader Fox

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    The only main problem with genesect is that it fuckin can just about come in on nearly every Ou mon and force a switch or U-turn spam everywhere and with rapid spin support if people run a rapid spinner along Genesect then SR seams less useful as genesect will cause switches and U-turn right into something that can Kill it or switch into a spinner -_-. Another problem is the amount of pressure its put into making teams i mean gosh Genesect can nearly do massive damage to like 3-4 team members. I see the Expert Belt Set very good as it can nearly always get a surprise kill if you play it right.
  12. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Yeah, seconding this, if it's Genesect v. Sableye and I'm the Genesect, even if I do get the Attack boost from Download I'm not going to be sticking around to U-Turn, I don't want to risk the 75% chance of having my best move's power cut in half, as well as lose 1/8th of my health every turn I stay in. That's a recipe for disaster, especially on a VoltTurn team, which Genesect is generally the center of in BW2.

    I've found most teams these days have a good answer to Sableye...it's not necessarily intentional, stuff like Heatran just straight up walls Sab unless you're running, I dunno, Confuse Ray? I don't see a scenario in which Sab's gonna beat Tran 1v1. Other common checks include Celebi and Starmie (Natural Cure is pretty good vs Sableye). It's still the second-best spinblocker OU has at its disposal, but I've stopped using it outside of Sun stall teams.
  13. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    tl;dr i know shed shell tran sucks and it's frankly not the best answer to sectrio, but some teams need it, which is why i've been talking about it

    okay now whoa. firstly, i'm not a good player >_> most of the "good" players like yee say that shed shell restalk heatran sucks, i kinda agree. i mainly advocate shelltalk tran because, on stall, it is the ONLY solid answer you have to sectrio cores. sorry but if you aren't running it there, you're gonna die to sun pretty damn fast. nowhere did i say shed shell restalk heatran is the RIGHT way to adapt to genesect, nor is it the BEST way. but it is one way to do so, and on certain types of teams, it is the only way. i just happen to be dumb enough to keep running those types of teams

    there are much better ways around sectrio but none of them fit well onto stall, which is one of the main things that makes stall iffy right now. offensive teams are, barring their weather starter if they have one, not as vulnerable to trapping as stall is - this is just by nature, because stall relies on anchoring itself against an opponent with key defensive mons. take out one of those mons and the entire team will be crippled or even come crashing down (it's happened to me many times lol). this makes the playstyle as a whole very vulnerable to trapping play, which is part of what makes sectrio such a huge problem for stall - if you lose heatran against certain teams, ESPECIALLY sun, you've basically lost the game on the spot. your latias dies to genesect and oh what's that venusaur swept you haha gg noob. you end up having to use shed shell to survive the core, and then your heatran will just get worn down by SR unless you run restalk for recovery.

    offense teams really don't have this problem; standard scarf genesect can check many major mons but if your offense is well constructed you should really have no problem checking right back. moreover, dugtrio is of limited utility against offense - barring its ability to eliminate key checks (eg terrakion against volcarona), a single dugtrio trap will not generally bring the whole team down. that means that, not only is shed shell tran out of place on any team except stall, but there are also better solutions to sectrio outside of stall. for example, scarf heatran beats the core easily - either you bomb the genesect if it's unscarfed (woo you just killed genesect, your opponent's ability to check you has probably been cut in half even though you just lost tran to dugtrio) or the genesect uturns into dugtrio and you hit it twice due to the scarf (woo you have heatran alive so genesect is walled hard). you don't even always need to run a solid genesect "counter", if your offense team doesn't have anything that's highly vulnerable to genesect.

    so yeah to clarify my opinion on shed shell restalk heatran: does the set suck? oh hell yes it does. you lose momentum all the time, you're sitting on the edge of your seat every fucking time you click sleep talk, and your heatran's ability to wall things like dragons is crippled while it's asleep. but EVEN THOUGH IT SUCKS, it is a necessity on certain types of team, so i've gotten used to using it, and thus i can appreciate the strengths it does have... few though they may be. and of course, revealing shed shell is priceless no matter what the circumstances, so there's an emotional bonus of sorts to be had as well... your mileage may vary



    and yeah nousername, sorry if i wasn't clear - my main point was that defensive mons generally appreciate lefties so much more than shed shell (in the case of chansey you can compare it to blissey), EXCEPT against those particular threat combos where suddenly you lose instantly unless you are running shed shell. when you're running skarm against hail stall and your skarm is shed shell, the hail damage will make you want to cry, but knowing my luck, as soon as i switch to lefties i'm gonna meet dragmag on the ladder and get 6-0'd. same thing goes for heatran really - i'd love to be able to keep lefties on it (balloon sux =P but honestly balloon isn't that great on stall), but then i die to sun sectrio right away

    i guess while i'm talking about genesect i might as well add my thoughts on hp ground, which i have said before - you should only run hp ground genesect if you're incredibly weak to heatran and can't afford to give up a slot on something else to get rid of it. shed shell tran vs sun is usually a really really solid matchup for the tran. if you're clever you might be able to hit it with victini brick breaks or something but you won't be OHKOing it without a ground move, and most of those are telegraphed from miles away so heatran will just switch out. even if it's being an idiot and shitting around in its sleep, you can't win if you can't kill it. in situations like those, the surprise factor of a ground move from an unexpected place can be really helpful, and sometimes it's easier to give up a slot on genesect than it is on say, venusaur. that's a very restricted situation though; i generally wouldn't want to give up that slot and i can't imagine many people would
  14. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    "Genesect simply having U-Turn is a good enough reason to ban it; rather, I'm suggesting that having the ability to escape all of its checks/counters with the simple click of a button is a factor in its brokenness. "

    this is what troubles me about your wording.
    every pokemon can switch out of their check / counter - it's not like you magically gain the ability to do so because of u-turn. i mean, you can switch out on the switch-in, but nachos is right in saying that scizor can do the same.

    if you want to argue for its brokenness, i think you should say

    "genesect can threaten a multitude of pokemon. this threat forces the opponent to switch out to their counter/check or face losing a pokemon, but the momentum can easily be kept by using u-turn on the switch. because of genesect's decent Atk stat + a possible download boost, this u-turn simultaneously preserves momentum while providing chip damage"

    i think the real opponent to genesect is prediction (plus not having a bunch of bug weak pokemon..) and running pokemon that ca capitalize on genesect's being locked in. if you run something like lucario / dragonite, then you can force genesect to flamethrower your lucario, allowing dragonite to easily set-up, or, even better, switch to dragonite on the flamethrower and set up from there!
  15. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Okay, if we accept the premise that the real opponent to Genesect is prediction, then there are two problems here. First, many relatively new and/or inexperienced players can't even grasp the concept of prediction, let alone execute it properly, which is unhealthy for the metagame and will decrease this game's popularity in general, which I'm opposed to. Second, in the context of your sentence, prediction = guessing. That's all it is. "Hmmm, is Genesect going to Flamethrower into my Lucario or Ice Beam predicting the switch into my Dragonite? Guess I'll flip a coin..." Besides, even if you do make the correct prediction, there's no rule against the team with Genesect having a secondary check to your Lucario or Dragonite. The latter in particular has proven to be especially ineffective in this metagame.

    A third option exists in the scenario. Genesect can take the middle ground and U-TURN OUT - an option many other Scarf users lack. Instead of predicting, the Genesect user can simply say to himself, "Hmm, well, if he stays in I U-Turn to my Lucario check, and if he switches out I break Dragonite's Multiscale and go to a check for that." There's no prediction required; it's a win-win situation for whoever has the Genesect.
  16. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    I can only think in a situation when it would be useful and it would be in a team lacking of strong special attackers to apply pressure against it, but even... even the rare Bug Buzz deals around 40%-47% because in this set Sableye's Defense is lower than Sp. Def, so +0 72%-85% if Sableye is fully Defensive. In the former case Recover solves all.

    Talking about Sableye, I love its design since RSE, and I was very happy because DW has gave it a second chance of leaving the depths of NU, however, WoW accuracy sucks, and relies too much on it, and Starmie which is pretty common nowadays, defeats it easily. Maybe only suited for Sun right now as Lavos suggested.

    Ah, of course, I usually say that Shed Shell sucks, an item which is useful 5% of the time and the rest is like as carrying no item?
    Like alkinesthetase says, I am unlucky enough that the times I have been using Shed Shell Heatran, NOBODY used against me a single Dugtrio or even Magnezone/ton(not talking about Gothitelle which seems that it has never existed) $·%$% I want to troll Dugtrios with Shed Shell Tran!, it seems like the day I left the item, dozens of Dugtrios, Magnezone/ton and like a Goth party Gothitelles will appear to troll me.
  17. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Shed Shell by itself sucks, as its page on Smogon says, is a item that is only looked upon as a item of necessity, not merit. Is almost the same reason why people use Ninetales, even though by itself Ninetales is a crap pokémon.

    About Sableye, it is annonying to kill even with its frailty, but every team seems to have a check/counter to it. Even Xatu, wich theorically has a severe type disadvantage against Sableye, counters him (since Sableye almost never use an attacking move).
  18. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    well, then you risk lucario getting up to +2, or using ice punch on the switch, or w/e. it's impossible (or unlikely, at least), for a team to be able to easily switch in to lucario.

    i mean, i agree with you about prediction being *mostly* guessing, so i guess you could argue genesect decreases competitiveness and makes the game boil more down to 50/50s!

    also: i used dragonite because salamence outspeeds genesect so its less applicable that a genesect would stay in on a salamence than on a dragonite, but yes, dragonite sucks comparatively.
  19. Huntofthelion

    Huntofthelion Live for the nights you can't remember
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    Anytime you need to advocate prediction as the main issue facing a Pokemon I think that says a lot in and of itself, because as Lavos said prediction isn't something everyone gets and relying on prediction as the only way to beat something isn't typically good for the metagame. I don't think Genesect is at that point, but if it was I would think that it would need to be tested at the very least.

    The issue I have with Genesect is that it bug isn't that great of a type, and there's a lot of times where RP Genesect's sweep is stopped by random things to the point where almost every team I've played on ladder has a built in check to it. The scarf set is different since it has U-turn, but it's not an overly strong attack to handle and you should have a solid bug resist or two anyway, since you know you're going to need to take attacks from opposing Genesect. The problem comes from the coverage moves in my opinion, and this goes back to the prediction issue. But I don't think it's game breaking at this point. It might be a little centralizing, but centralizing isn't always a bad thing as long as it's not too extreme.
  20. bubbly

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    Mmm, actually I've found what I think is the closest thing to a true Genesect counter: Rocky Helmet Heatran. With SR down Genesect can only U-turn four times; sure, the opponent can just switch if they expect Heatran, but at least then you're on a fairly even playing field, prediction wise. Been using this alongside Spikes Roserade and Jellicent and made the leaderboard easily on PO.
  21. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Yea, I think I get what you are trying to say, but you have to be careful with that argument. Prediction is something that people use to handle something, but relying on prediction to beat a pokemon doesn't actually mean the pokemon in question is actually broken or bad for the metagame. For example, MoxieMixmence is something that's going to require prediction to beat, as is CB Victini under sunlight. Both of the above pokemon don't really have counters in the strictest sense of the word, but prediction enables people to play around these threats. I guess I am just saying we prolly need to re word the entire "prediction is a reason to ban / not ban arguments since it heavily impacts on the pokemon that we can predict around.

    I still 100% agree with pretty much the rest of your argument tho.
  22. EtherDrive

    EtherDrive

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    Poor mans Venusaur (Maractus) Has Drain Punch with move tutor.

    Although he's weaker defensively, and is slower at base, with Drain Punch he can be a really good Sustained Mixed Offense under sun, or without it, and since he has less weaknesses and an immunity with abilities other than chlorophyll (very useful ones....) Cotton Guard + Growth to counter rain teams might be better than ever (not counting hurricane)
  23. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    Sableye usually carries Night Shade/Foul Play, anyways with Foul Play isn't a 2KO on Xatu and if Xatu poisons it...

    I have found Sableye pretty annoying when I use an stall without Heatran.


    bubbly, Rocky Helmet Heatran sounds very interesting, I should try it out.
    But apart of Heatran, is it also useful against other mons? (Just asking)
  24. bubbly

    bubbly

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    It's mainly for Genesect, but it's been useful for Scizor (of course), Outraging Dragons, Rapid Spinners and a few other minor things. Numerically, almost every battle it will do less damage than Leftovers would have recovered, but I always found wearing down Genesect quickly to be incredibly useful (especially in a defensive team vs offensive team matchup). Just make sure you run it along with another check to Tornadus, Latios and co. Other good team mates I found were things like Extremespeed DDNite which can sweep incredibly easily in this meta once Genesect is low on health.
  25. Nachos

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    I only chose that one sentence because I thought it was the most relevant part of your post, and sort of summed it up. I'm not going to argue for Rotom-H being a Genesect counter when we both know it's terrible.

    "Scizor is a completely different case, it's too slow to U-Turn out of all of its checks/counters" makes little sense when the definition of a counter is to come in and wall something. With regard to a check, Scizor won't be U-turning on a Heatran just like how Genesect will not stay in if knows its facing a Scarfed Keldeo. I could argue that Genesect has a lot of time spent being locked into moves as well if you're not running Expert Belt (in which case you're facing the problem of being slower than most things offensive). You know what you're getting yourself into with Scizor - losing all momentum for the sake of trapping & killing something like Latios, a worthwhile trade off I might add.

    Genesect is no more threatening in BW2 than the previous "big cheeses" of previous metagames we've had. At Dragonite's peak, I'd argue it affected the metagame more so than Genesect does now. I'd also like to point out that anything can be made broken on paper. In practice, I've found Genesect to be underwhelming after initally hearing reports that it was broken, mainly because of an inconsistent Download and hazard proximity. Reiterating again, people are obsessed with hazards and this only impacts negatively on something grounded using a pivot move often, especially one that isn't sufficient enough to weaken an enemy Pokemon strongly enough so that it's weak enough to be finished off later.

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