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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. tehy

    tehy

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    I think the main difference that a lot of people aren't mentioning is that it can u-turn to a trapper pokemon. Then again, that's a lot of why shed shell skarm exists anyhow.

    Edit: Shouting, you wait until genesect isn't IN to spike. Once you have a layer of spikes and SR, genesect goes down quick and hard. Alternately, lead with sableye and burn his dumbshit ass-12% a turn from then on.
  2. Shouting

    Shouting

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    You can easily say that you can just put up hazards to deal with Genesect, but it's not that easy. Almost all of the common hazard setters in OU are threatened by Genesect (Ferrothorn, Celebi, Landorus-T, Forretress, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Deoyxs, Donphan, Gliscor, Skarmory, etc. ) the only that isn't is Heatran, not to mention if you are facing a rain team, it will be incredibly difficult to set it up, and if you're facing Sun you're just begging for Dugtrio to come and trap you instead of using something like Magma Storm. Also, Every single pokemon that has access to spikes in OU is hit super effectively by Genesect. Good Luck getting up one layer, let alone 2 or three.
  3. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    I think we've already established that this doesn't work on players with a functioning brain.
  4. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    While this is true, I'd also like to add the effectiveness of the RapidSpinners in OU. Starmie beats Jellicent and Gengar one-on-one thanks to Thunderbolt and Psychic, respectively. Forretress also spins and can Volt Switch out of a spinblocker's way, then watch Jellicent and Gengar die.

    Hazards are nowhere near as easy to keep up in OU as they would be in the lower tiers, because the Spinners here are much more effective.
  5. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    With the right EV spread, Jellicent avoids the 2HKO from Thunderbolt. I remember to have "burn" stalled many Starmies that vainly tried to defeat my Jellicent with Thunderbolt. Of course, no matter what Jellicent does, Thunder always 2HKO. As of Gengar, most Starmie don't use Psychic-type STAB, and their only option to OHKO Gengar is Hydro Pump, wich not only has shaky accuracy, but only nabs the OHKO with Life Orb or in Rain (or after Stealth Rock, you have a chance to OHKO).

    As for Forretress, while it can Volt Switch out, you need to pair him with a Pursuit user so that the Ghost-type doesn't come back and impede Forretress's spin again.
  6. tehy

    tehy

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    I think we've already established that it totally works on a huge amount of people. Or at least, my play-testing has. Often, they don't really have a better alternative either;or they have to sac him to a burn to u-turn to poison heal scor/loom.


    This isn't a case of "only if they don't know X ability or workings of X move", which i disdain because it's all about people that are dumb. But this works on a large amount of people, so it's not like you're ONLY getting morons you can beat anyhow.
    And yeah, spdef jelli rapes the hell out of starmie.
  7. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    My playtesting finds Sableye being an unheard-of "check" to Genesect, too. Aren't most Gene paired with Heatran in order to not get burnt to ribbons as well as to avoid getting countered by other Genesect? That Will-o-Wisp strategy might as well be fueling Heatran's Flash Fire (or a number of other Pokemon who also employ Flash Fire, such as Houndoom or Chandelure).

    Again, if a player has a high-functioning brain, evasion of status will likely have been considered when employing Genesect as the main attacker. Also, what if they have a Lum Berry, akin to many other Sweepers who also hate status afflictions? Then that strategy dies in a hole as Genesect successfully escapes, and your Sableye risks being killed by the next Pokemon.
  8. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Ok you're using anecdotal evidence to argue a claim, and while the PS ladder is filled with bad players, you still can't get a way with doing that. You're literally suggesting that you should lead with Sableye "because it will help you deal with Genesect", but that doesn't help people who have trouble with Genesect, when they face off against someone who does know what they're doing. It doesn't work against players who use different sets either (like Choice Specs). Let's assume that most players don't use Sableye (or your team) in general, your strategy doesn't work in practice against someone with the basic knowledge of BW2 metagame. I'm not going to let my Genesect get burned in the early game, that's absurd.
  9. tehy

    tehy

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    actually, it was the PO ladder. And it works pretty damn well against choice specs-which only does 3/4ths with bug buzz;which it might not even use. And it works against most people with basic knowledge of the BW metagame. You're just judging everyone by the standards of players like us, which is ridiculous.

    And also;if it works on most people in the ladder, then you'll be fine most of the time.

    I use anecdotal evidence to back up everything. I've never run a calc successfully in my life;but i know what most of my pokemon take from most of the hits they hit. Experience with players informs everything i do.
  10. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Ok. Hey, you might think I'm being an elitist, but I'm really just trying to inform you're strategy should be disregarded, because it lies on the basis that your opponent is bad. It doesn't even make any sense to me. You can't accept strategies that rely on your opponent being bad... it's too inconsistent (no to mention unreasonable!!). Among many if not most forum goers, the idea of switching your Choice Scarf Genesect out against Sableye seems like an obvious move to make, because it's priority WoW will cripple your U-turns. And if they don't, they'll learn from their mistake and never do it again. You haven't even begun to to take tournament matches into account, where your strategy has approximately a 0.1% chance of working.

    I've seen a lot of silly things whenever I enter this thread, but this jumped out at me as being particularly absurd. I shouldn't even have to explain why this doesn't fly. The ladder = / = BW2 metagame. Tournament matches are also taken into account, and your strategy is useless in that environment. (hell it's not very good on ladder either, but I digress).

    Ok I know you use the same team / playstyle, and NEVER deviate from it, and that's honestly fine, but don't project your experiences onto everyone else. Your strategy for dealing with Genesect is not legitimate; the fact that barely anyone uses Sableye proves this (otherwise EVERYONE would use Sableye as a lead to burn Genesect because for some reason players like staying in with their Genesect leads). I would never suggest that i'm some "perfect player who makes all of the right decisions!", but the crux of the issue here is that you're relying on your own experiences as proof to support that this strategy works.
  11. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    I'm gonna go ahead and take the stance opposite to my bro pkgaming, because I disagree with him pretty hardcore.

    Sableye is a pretty great way to deal with Genesect in my experience. If Genesect stays in, it gets burnt. If it switches without U-turning....Sableye has done its job. That alone (switching without U-turning) would be doing the job, but there is the added bonus of the Genesect team having to switch something into that WoW...which is never fun unless you're a Sun team (Fire pokes), have a Heatran (Flash Fire), or Starmie / Celebi (Natural Cure). Even special attackers don't like losing 12.5% per turn. Additionally, Sableye gets STAB Snarl, which drops Special Attack, so if team preview shows you Genesect + Heatran (or Starmie), and you're convinced "he won't keep Genesect in cause no good tournament player would do that," then just Snarl and lower Heatran's spatk by 1 stage and hurt Starmie + lower by one stage. Again, you've done your job.

    I have to say that anyone underestimating Sableye's prowess in this metagame is making a huge mistake; it is a near unparalleled spin blocker on Sun (better than Jellicent in Rain) and on a non Sun offensive team, Sableye + Special Landorus is one of the single most destructive combos in the game (locopoke and I both wrecked with this combo).

    There are plenty of other ways with dealing with Genesect as well; simply set up your offense first (rock polish lo Terrakion / Landorus both outspeed and ohko with lo attacks after an RP, Yache Garchomp / Dragonite can survive an ice beam and hit back with a fire attack, use Tailwind Tornadus on a Rain team and ohko it with stab Rain boosted Water attacks, etc.), surprise it with stuff like ScarfJirachi with Fire Punch (yes, people keep Genesect in, but even if they don't, if you make them switch and respect the possibility of your scarf, you've done your job), or use combo strategies like hazards + Rocky Helmet Heatran to wear it down.

    Genesect is a 50/50 OU / suspect / uber mon; let's not delude ourselves that it is convincingly OU or convincingly uber. There are plenty of great arguments for either side, and what I want to be seeing from people in here (and on the ladder / tournaments) is creative attempts to deal with it, not bitching simply because you can't deal with it using whatever you want to use (pkg this part isn't referring to you lol).

    Part of playing a game is dealing with and adapting to the metagame.
  12. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    Can you please explain these two things more because they sound amazing and this is a general metagame thread?
  13. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Aldaron's EDIT: I got it from myzozoa...so I'll give it to #usbest I guess...

    Lavos edit: myzozoa got it from me, I introduced it to team west in wcop and you were right there but I guess it went unnoticed by master aldaron... q_q

    I agree though, Sableye's a pretty great way to scare Genesect out, and seeing as most teams only have one or two reliable Sableye switch-ins (Sun teams being the exception), it's fairly easy to predict what the opponent will bring in and make the appropriate switch. Additionally, Sableye can partner exceptionally well with Deo-D offensive teams, which tend to have troubles with Genesect, as it can potentially OHKO their hazard setter.
  14. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    i can't speak to the second part j7r, but sableye is a great spinblocker in sun for pretty simple reasons: the only two spinblockers that can hope to beat it have to do so by running it over or outlasting it. those two are tentacruel and starmie, and starmie's stab sucks in sun while tentacruel loses its rain dish. sableye can beat pretty much every other spinner by burn as long as you avoid status via substitute/taunt/whatever since they have no way to kill it (pretty much every other spinner is physical so it can't touch sableye once it gets burned, and none of them have reliable recovery so the burn stalls them out). if you cut starmie/tentacruel's water stab power the same thing will happen to them. starmie can switch out to heal the burn, or stall back with its own recover, but ultimately you still got the job done because starmie can't spin or hurt you effectively, and it won't be outstalling you when it can't do effective damage.

    in general, if you can't outright kill sableye, it is hugely infuriating - goes for most matchups against sableye really
  15. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Ok, maybe forcing Genesect to switch out without using U-turn is cool but i'm still not convinced that it's a "Genesect check", at least past turn 1. After the lead matchup, Sableye isn't any better at checking Genesect than any other Pokemon. (Not like it's ever going to "stop" Genesect from U-turn, unless they both switch in on a double ko or double switch.) Also, i'm pretty sure that tournament players would switch out against sableye instead of U-turning because I would rather have a snarled Heatran (do Sableyes even use Snarl?) because -1 SpA on Heatran isn't a big deal. The point I was trying to get across was that you simply can't lead with Sableye and go "gonna burn Genesect g_g" at least not consistently, and definitely not against players with a brain.
    I totally agree with you good bro. I currently lean on the OU side myself.
  16. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

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    Deoxys-D with a red card will always get a SR and spikes up if Genesect is leading as well. Recover the U-turn/ Bug Buzz, SR on whatever comes out next (very rarely you'll find something that can remotely KO Deoxys after a recover, especially if they don't get to pick what's coming out next), and proceed to spike.

    I've been trying out ResTalk Dusclops as a spinblocker because it's just so ballin' and Genesect can't do sh*t to it.

    Check out this replay, albeit very noobish (with tonnes of bad calls), but you get the idea: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2970155
  17. Myzozoa

    Myzozoa Throw-up on the internet, or get off on TV
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    Yeah it was Lavos idea (though he put it forth in #usbest, so technically both are correct), and I used it to get really high on the ladder when I decided to take Aldaron's idea of a Sableye+Deo-D+RP Landorus Team. If you make the right predictions you really mess with people because Snarl and Wisp force things through your hazards and the damage piles up. I think Snarl is good for creating set-up opportunities for a sweeper, but if I was using full stall I would choose Night Shade instead for better damage.


    Here is my favorite spin blocker right now (credit to Aldaron I guess)

    Garchomp@Rocky Helmet
    Jolly
    4 HP/252attack/252 speed
    Stealth Rock
    Swords Dance
    Outrage
    Earthquake

    It's like a Latios that spin blocks and Swords Dances (but doesn't resist water) and it frees up a moveslot for Deoxys-D because you don't have to use Stealth Rock and Spikes. It's also more threatening than Deo-D (duh), which is important because Deo-D can't keep SR up against Tentacruel. This Garchomp always gets it up, so you at least know that your most important layer is up when it counts.

    I still think that Genesect and Torn-t need to be suspect tested, but I like the idea of Rocky Helmet Heatran+ hazards as a way of dealing with Genesect that isn't supported by Dugtrio. I definitely think that the extensive adaptations players have been forced to take to deal with Genesect indicate that it is an unhealthy presence in the metagame (broken).
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Good post Aldaron, and i agree with most of it, but i don't really get the ''creative attempts to deal with it'' part. Genesect wasn't released yesterday, we have had him for 2 months, and people have already come up with the most viable creative attempts to deal with it. RestTalk Shed Shell Heatran, Rocky Helmet Heatran, the rise of Rotom-H, set-up sweepers lowering their defensive ivs by huge amounts (Garchomp) to avoid getting revenge killed by Genesect, the fact that other scarfers are almost obsolete and stall is struggling more than ever (Genesect is not the sole reason for this, but it is a big one), the resurgence of DragMag teams because Genesect is the premier scarfer now, the increased usage of SpD Rotom-W (this is also due to to Torn-T, but Genesect is responsible too), random scarfers with fire moves popping out to surprise Genesect and other stuff i may be forgetting.

    The meta has already been compromised too much by Genesect, and i don't think it needs to go further than this...
  19. tehy

    tehy

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    i think wobbuffett is kind of an interesting way to deal with genesect, in that, if they lack a ghost-type, you can use scarfnesect as a springboard to kill two things (This assumes they lead with genesect, but that's basically always, so i don't have a proble with this assumption).

    As for what aldaron said, YES. Like i said in my deleted post, many people don't really have a viable alternative;lefties starmie is not great either because night shade and WoW and taunt can rip its ass up;all you need is one hydro miss that you can afford to stall for, a good taunt, and it's forced to run or die. And i personally think that strategy would work on many posters here, just not the best ones.

    Anyhow, like i said, genesect isn't particularly scary or threatening, and i'd really prefer we focus more on tornadus T, which was clearly sent back in time by RainNet to destroy the leader of the eventual uprising, Stall. Now we as smogon must save the future by banning it, and maybe also shooting shotguns at people.
  20. bubbly

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    Yeah, to me it seems pretty clear that either Drizzle (and therefore, most likely Drought too) or Tornadus-T have to go. Sure, the thing has solid checks, but Dugtrio deals with many of the popular ones (SpDef Skarm, Zapdos, SpDef Rotom-A, Scarf Thundurus are the only things I can think of right now which counter this combo), and virtually all of them can be defeated easily through Stealth Rock + U-turn + offensive pressure from other team members.

    We can get rid of Torn-T, but I still don't think Poli / Gene / Dug will be much less broken. Grass types and the likes of Latios and Starmie would be somewhat more effective against Rain but that's it. Tornadus-I could fill the hole pretty well with it's even more ridiculous Hurricane - we've never really tested regular Torn alongside GeneDug.

    So yeah, my conclusion is that Drizzle has to go. Instant less HO, less GeneDug, more viable defensive teams. I really think a Rain suspect test should happen before one (inevitably) takes place for Genesect, a big part of Gene's effectiveness is based on the way he fits perfectly into weather offense.
  21. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    The problem is obviously Genesect, the moment he was released and popular players began spreading around cores which immensely boosted already powerful play styles (Sun and Rain specifically) and all hell broke loose. It doesn't help that one of it's most reliable counters lurks in DW and the rest are all situational or gimped at best (Shed Shell Heatran). And now we are talking about (seriously I might add) lowering IVs to increase the chance of a more helpful encounter with it among other crazy things. IIRC the meta doesn't bend to accomadate a pokemon, the Pokemon bends to the meta and if not it gets sent upwards to its proper place.

    One of two things need to happen:

    1) Suspect test Genesect: straight forward. Ban the most complained about mon, and if the meta is still overpowered to one playstyle, aka Tornadus-T then test him next. This one is the fastest and simplest route.

    2) Retest Thundrus-I, Excadrill: No one can say with a straight face that the first won't help in a meta jam packed with base 110's and scarfed mons or that it isn't beaten but an arguably better alternative, the I's Volt Aborb. Exca can return to a meta where Rain and Sun are viable again, one that has Techniloom, Regenerator Amoongus and a strong portfolio of VolTurn mons.
  22. bubbly

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    I'd argue that although all hell broke loose when Genesect was released, it was because it made abusing the already broken aspects of the meta (weather) much easier. Gene simply isn't good enough in and of itself to singlehandedly cause the massive pile of shit that the meta has devolved into since its arrival. Correlation =/= causation and all that. It's clearly Suspect material, no argument, but my experience playing against it where neither weather offense or Deoxys-D are involved is that it isn't as massively unhealthy for the meta as it seems now.

    Oh yeah and X-5 you're getting your I's and your T's confused =P
  23. Razza

    Razza

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    brb banning any pokemon that causes a shift in the metagame... -.-

    tornadus-i is not a playstyle...

    this is just a terrible post in general, next time actually think about what you are saying before posting it...
  24. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    Counterarguments above in bold.

    And now for me to propose Suspects; most of this is in agreement that Deo-D, Torn-T, and Genesect are bonkers and need to go:

    1. Deoxys-D - There's a lot of agreement here that Deo-D's capabilities with hazards are a lot more supreme than other hazard setters. In no small part, Magic Coat and Recover help keep Deo-D alive while it doesn't get OHKO'd. It also has no trouble dealing with Starmie and Tentacruel thanks to Electric Gem-boosted Thunderbolts.

    2. Tornadus-T - On an alt, I run Torn-T as part of my weatherless VoltTurn team. Regenerator helps it way too much with U-turn - something slow that threatens to OHKO Tornadus-T will instead wind up being walled by something else.

    That said, a lot of people also agree that it is a prominent threat in Rain, although this is also a lot to do with people not using Abomasnow to not only hard counter Rain, but revengekill Tornadus-T. Weather wars are to be won, not complained about in a defeatist manner.

    3. Salamence - Moxie MixMence has been mentioned as requiring prediction to win, and prediction alone. That said, it wins too many games too easily. Revengeing it is literally the only way to attempt to kill it. If it's a Scarfed Moxie MixMence, good luck. After a few Moxie boosts, not even Heatran is going to wall those Outrages.

    Something that lacks counters and fuels this perception of "Stall is dead, stall is dead, neener neener neener" needs to get the hell out of B2W2 OU. I will not give up on this being Suspected.

    4. Genesect - There's enough conversation about him to fuel several billion Suspect Tests of him. He benefits from the weather which once kept BW OU in a state of relative balance, much like Tornadus-T and others. He also overcentralizes the metagame, as already people are using stuff to counter one Pokemon as opposed to one playstyle.

    Let's use Rain as an example of a playstyle. Since it's a weather, one just needs to change the weather. Politoed is extremely easy to counter thanks to Abomasnow and Celebi, among many other Grass-types who can sponge attacks from Toed, while otherwise laughing in the frog's face, and then promptly winning the weather war thereafter.

    Now, an example of a Pokemon that was recently banned, whom people still want to see return despite even my saying "HELL NO" - Blaziken. To counter it, you needed stuff that didn't wind up OHKO'd to death by its attacks. Slowbro and Jellicent among a few others were cited. To escape those guys, all Blaziken had to do was Baton Pass out of there with its boosts to something that said "Problem, Bulky Waters?" and then swept. Not to mention Blaziken can do some sweeping by himself which also caused him to be banned from Dream World OU.

    After that, though, I am out of Suspects to propose. Mostly because I don't genuinely believe Jirachi is broken when he is statusable, and OHKO-able by the likes of Garchomp (who is actually somewhat fun to use, albeit not as easy to counter as others claim; that said, even Chomp has a few checks of whom I rarely see - if any of you want Garchomp to not be on my list of "I will not give up until this is put back in Ubers where it belongs" things, I would strongly advise Weavile among others).
  25. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    Well one way to have less Genedug is to ban Gene but I think you wanted to take the middle road and satisfy both Gene users and those who are tired of rain dominance by pinning the blame on Tornadus-T instead.

    The thing with blaming Tornadus-T is that after seeing how his main STAB and weapon, Hurricane needs rain to function, can only resist one priority (Mach Punch) out Bullet Pwnch, Extreme Speed, Quick Attack, Aqua Jet, Shadow Sneak and most importantly weak to Ice Shard, is resisted by Pink Blobs, Steel, Electric and Rock which are all common types, it takes an group effort to let Tornadus-T sweep and I haven't seen any outrageous, one use sets or NU mons being bumped to specifically handle him and no more.

    On the other hand, and to satisfy your complaint about the dominance of HO Teams, Genesect works in any/non weather. He is the perfect lead, scouting or bluffing a scarf before switching to a proper measure (Bouncer, Hazard Setter, Weather Inducer, Counter, RP, etc.). Not to mention his typing and his ability, which gives him +1, in other words enjoying the best of both worlds, the speed of the scarf, the boost from a spec.

    He also perfectly fits not 1, but 2 criterias we have used to ban Excadrill and Deo-S, that of over centralizing the metagame, lacking counters and being utterly unpredictable and no ability to stop him completely before knowing most of his moveset and (guessing) his item, respectively.

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