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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. bubbly

    bubbly

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    I'd argue that although all hell broke loose when Genesect was released, it was because it made abusing the already broken aspects of the meta (weather) much easier. Gene simply isn't good enough in and of itself to singlehandedly cause the massive pile of shit that the meta has devolved into since its arrival. Correlation =/= causation and all that. It's clearly Suspect material, no argument, but my experience playing against it where neither weather offense or Deoxys-D are involved is that it isn't as massively unhealthy for the meta as it seems now.

    Oh yeah and X-5 you're getting your I's and your T's confused =P
  2. Razza

    Razza

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    brb banning any pokemon that causes a shift in the metagame... -.-

    tornadus-i is not a playstyle...

    this is just a terrible post in general, next time actually think about what you are saying before posting it...
  3. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    Counterarguments above in bold.

    And now for me to propose Suspects; most of this is in agreement that Deo-D, Torn-T, and Genesect are bonkers and need to go:

    1. Deoxys-D - There's a lot of agreement here that Deo-D's capabilities with hazards are a lot more supreme than other hazard setters. In no small part, Magic Coat and Recover help keep Deo-D alive while it doesn't get OHKO'd. It also has no trouble dealing with Starmie and Tentacruel thanks to Electric Gem-boosted Thunderbolts.

    2. Tornadus-T - On an alt, I run Torn-T as part of my weatherless VoltTurn team. Regenerator helps it way too much with U-turn - something slow that threatens to OHKO Tornadus-T will instead wind up being walled by something else.

    That said, a lot of people also agree that it is a prominent threat in Rain, although this is also a lot to do with people not using Abomasnow to not only hard counter Rain, but revengekill Tornadus-T. Weather wars are to be won, not complained about in a defeatist manner.

    3. Salamence - Moxie MixMence has been mentioned as requiring prediction to win, and prediction alone. That said, it wins too many games too easily. Revengeing it is literally the only way to attempt to kill it. If it's a Scarfed Moxie MixMence, good luck. After a few Moxie boosts, not even Heatran is going to wall those Outrages.

    Something that lacks counters and fuels this perception of "Stall is dead, stall is dead, neener neener neener" needs to get the hell out of B2W2 OU. I will not give up on this being Suspected.

    4. Genesect - There's enough conversation about him to fuel several billion Suspect Tests of him. He benefits from the weather which once kept BW OU in a state of relative balance, much like Tornadus-T and others. He also overcentralizes the metagame, as already people are using stuff to counter one Pokemon as opposed to one playstyle.

    Let's use Rain as an example of a playstyle. Since it's a weather, one just needs to change the weather. Politoed is extremely easy to counter thanks to Abomasnow and Celebi, among many other Grass-types who can sponge attacks from Toed, while otherwise laughing in the frog's face, and then promptly winning the weather war thereafter.

    Now, an example of a Pokemon that was recently banned, whom people still want to see return despite even my saying "HELL NO" - Blaziken. To counter it, you needed stuff that didn't wind up OHKO'd to death by its attacks. Slowbro and Jellicent among a few others were cited. To escape those guys, all Blaziken had to do was Baton Pass out of there with its boosts to something that said "Problem, Bulky Waters?" and then swept. Not to mention Blaziken can do some sweeping by himself which also caused him to be banned from Dream World OU.

    After that, though, I am out of Suspects to propose. Mostly because I don't genuinely believe Jirachi is broken when he is statusable, and OHKO-able by the likes of Garchomp (who is actually somewhat fun to use, albeit not as easy to counter as others claim; that said, even Chomp has a few checks of whom I rarely see - if any of you want Garchomp to not be on my list of "I will not give up until this is put back in Ubers where it belongs" things, I would strongly advise Weavile among others).
  4. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    Well one way to have less Genedug is to ban Gene but I think you wanted to take the middle road and satisfy both Gene users and those who are tired of rain dominance by pinning the blame on Tornadus-T instead.

    The thing with blaming Tornadus-T is that after seeing how his main STAB and weapon, Hurricane needs rain to function, can only resist one priority (Mach Punch) out Bullet Pwnch, Extreme Speed, Quick Attack, Aqua Jet, Shadow Sneak and most importantly weak to Ice Shard, is resisted by Pink Blobs, Steel, Electric and Rock which are all common types, it takes an group effort to let Tornadus-T sweep and I haven't seen any outrageous, one use sets or NU mons being bumped to specifically handle him and no more.

    On the other hand, and to satisfy your complaint about the dominance of HO Teams, Genesect works in any/non weather. He is the perfect lead, scouting or bluffing a scarf before switching to a proper measure (Bouncer, Hazard Setter, Weather Inducer, Counter, RP, etc.). Not to mention his typing and his ability, which gives him +1, in other words enjoying the best of both worlds, the speed of the scarf, the boost from a spec.

    He also perfectly fits not 1, but 2 criterias we have used to ban Excadrill and Deo-S, that of over centralizing the metagame, lacking counters and being utterly unpredictable and no ability to stop him completely before knowing most of his moveset and (guessing) his item, respectively.
  5. StairFall

    StairFall

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    I am in total favour of this. Without these two weathers weatherless would become more viable because it creates options for dealing with weather outside of bringing your own. With swift swimmers becoming viable again with the resurgence of regular rain HO becomes less viable. Team building will improve in flexibility because you don't have to run one specific pokemon that is also crap. I ran a successful sun team with a Ninetales with no moves, just a punching bag. Team match-up is actually causing wins and losses from the start in this metagame because of them. A metagame where killing A pokemon that doesn't do shit but switch in them switch out so you can switch in your weather pokemon then die is a win condition isn't a good one.
  6. bubbly

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    ^^^Butterfree, yeah I was mainly talking about Rain and to a lesser extent Sun as being broken weathers. Sorry, should have made that more clear.

    X5; Tornadus is actually all but immune to any priority move bar a LO / CB Ice Shard. Okay, so it takes 70% or whatever from a Bullet Punch (yeah I have no idea how much it actually does, Scizor is that uncommon), while smacking Scizor with Hurricane. Then it switches, Regenerator does its magic etc. The reason we haven't had many NU's coming up to counter it is that, unlike Terrakion, it doesn't have perfect counters lurking in the lower tiers. People can't take its attacks without taking often inferior teambuilding measures, therefore they don't try to, they just run a weather offense team of their own.
    And just to make this absolutely clear, Bliss / Chans don't beat Tornadus. They are a reasonable check to Tornadus, in that barring confusion hax they can take its Hurricanes. On the other hand they do nothing back except in a 1v1 situation, they're set up fodder for whatever the Tornadus wants to U-turn to, they're forced to heal as soon as they get in, and there's always this risk that they'll still lose because of either a crit, Hurricane hax, or just a moderate amount of residual damage plus Superpowers.

    I haven't actually seen much suspect discussion about Deoxys-D but it might be a good time to talk about it. If Genesect does go, Deoxys loses one of its best checks, which nearly always stops it getting 2 layers (at least straight away). Scizor doesn't fill that gap because of the risk of HP Fire. It's pretty obvious that Deo is far and away the best hazard lead available and is in no small part responsible for the amount of clone HO teams. The entire metagame is basically geared around beating it at the moment (Genesect + Tar / Tenta in Rain / Xatu in Sun) and yet its still effective and still incredibly popular.
  7. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Finally, someone else understands. I'm glad you posted this, hopefully people are going to start to catch onto the undeniable fact that sooner or later, their pink blob is going to get lucked out by Tornadus-T. In fact, it doesn't even have to be luck: the versions that carry Taunt annoy it badly, especially if it tries to heal on the turn Taunt is used, and Superpower does about 50% to Chansey and even more to Blissey. Hazards also really rack up.

    The fact that Tornadus-T eventually will wear down and kill the pink blobs is one of the reasons stall is hardly even viable in BW2, the other reason being that CM Keldeo can essentially dismantle entire teams.
  8. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Deoxys-D strangely enough has a stat spread the near reverse of deoxys-S yet if it did go suspect would do so for all the same reasons. It's nearly guaranteed hazards or screens. Sure magic bounce stops it but do you know how easy it is to downright murder Espeon and Xatu? You can't predict it because you only know what set its running after it accomplishes what it does and then it dies. Sometimes also putting the game at 5-5 with a well timed PB or HP fire.

    However I think complaining about a lack of counters is beginning to get futile in this metagame. The metagame we have now is a superfast and bulky meta where trapping and revenging has become super popular. Running multiple scarfers on one team isn't just viable but slowly becoming the norm. There are near no more hard counters to the biggest threats, just checks and shaky match ups. It's obvious we have to change how we look at things. Bringing out moxie-scarfmence when every 'mon on the opponents team is at 50/60% is a win condition if they don't have a 101+ scarf. The biggest threats in the meta can hardly be beaten normally. I brought down mix-moxiemence with a combo of prankster toxic and ice shard while shuffling between steel levitate and flash fire. I did the same thing with venusaur, WoW+bullet punch predicting sludge bomb It isn't healthy but it isn't like mence and venu are the only offenders. I shouldn't have to run scarf weavile to beat venusaur with an Ice punch but I do because that's how the metagame is.

    Volt-Turn is also pretty ruinous, being able to know what you're switching into on a double switch has made trapping ridiculously easy to do. U-turntrio is so easy to execute that pretty much any somewhat frail ground weak pokemon is going down. It doesn't help that it's made weather wars even stupider than they already are, reducing them to a game of "after you" seeing who dies first the weatherman or the trapper. A meta where you get a knowledgeable switch into a pokemon with another that wins 1on1 and prevents escape is beyond dumb.

    Weather is probably the worst. Weatherless is slowly becoming less viable with the only few options becoming Ho or a super well constructed team. Weather wars are bullshit as well. It isn't good for the meta, it's reducing the game to "gg when Ninetales, worst pokemon in OU dies even if you have all five of the rest of your team at full health." Look at Lavos' "sun stall" team. It isn't sun stall, it's a stall team that has to run Ninetales to counter all the huge rain threats.
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I think that by now everyone knows that the blobs are a shitty response to Torn-T, as Taunt Torn-T is the most common set.

    And yeah if Sect gets banned, Deo-D will have just gotten a whole lot better.
  10. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    This particular saying is constantly used. It's probably tired out. However, it is the most apt way to respond to this,

    "Checking broken things with other broken things is not how you help the meta."

    I think it's a general consensus that both Deoxys-D and Genesect are extremely harmful to the OU metagame and need to leave. Permanently.
  11. Porii Sames

    Porii Sames

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    I know stall isn't that great and all now (anyone saying it's dead/sucks has not played a true BW2 stall team yet) but this statement is nowhere near true. If your stall team cannot handle CM Keld, then it doesn't even matter what team you're using then because you are THAT BAD of a player. Toxic Tenta, Amoonguss, Jellicent, etc. Stall should be able to handle Keldeo pretty well...
  12. bubbly

    bubbly

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    To Stairfall, I agree sort of but not that much. Mixed Moxie Mence is something that people put on their team specifically to destroy balanced and stall teams. I don't have any problem with people being able to do that, in fact it's healthy. On the other hand, Venusaur in Sun isn't a specific anti-stall measure, it just destroys everything.

    I don't think we have to change how we look at things at all. We have the tools to check / counter pretty much everything in the metagame except Drizzle / Drought fuelled offense, and to an extent Genesect + Deoxys and Gene + Dug. If we remove those we have what in my opinion would be a pretty solid, balanced metagame.

    And I think we're all agreed that Genesect plus Dugtrio needs to go, it's ridiculous, regardless of whether or not we think Gene is broken by itself. Removing Dugtrio is kinda ridiculous, so the only options are banning Gene or banning U-turn / Volt Switch + a trapper, which is also imo fairly stupid.
  13. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    while i agree that CM keldeo should really not be able to rip down a well made team, it's not easy to make a well made team on the defensive side in this era... which is the real problem. we have counters to almost everything (even in this era, very very few threats can claim to be uncounterable - even hydreigon gets countered by physically defensive chansey, and jirachi can handle tornadus-T, and heatran can handle genesect, etc. gotta say the closest i've come to uncounterable in my experience is standard fblast/eq/outrage salamence), but not enough of those counters are counters to multiple things, and not enough of those counters fill important team roles to form team synergy. with only six mons, stall can't fit enough counters to stay alive, long enough to win, against most teams. it's not an era where smart play will let you outstall even the mightiest powerhouses, because with only six mons, you will be missing a counter to one of those mighty powerhouses.

    at least i can say this is true for weatherless stall; trying to play weatherless stall right now is basically gambling on ladder for someone to run the thing that beats you (cause oh boy, there's something in the top 40 that beats you in this era). it's something i have definitely tried; it always falls apart. it's not impossible, and you'll be able to hold your own against many teams, but there will be SOMETHING that beats you, and it won't be something rare and niche either.

    i mean sure every team has its weakness, but i find without fail that weatherless stall is always weak to at least one common threat, which is a lot more serious of a problem than "i have a fatal weakness but it's somewhere down in RU". if we look at lavos sun for example, stuff like shed shell heatran or special RP landorus was quite rare prior to that team (and similar ones) becoming popular. at least in some part, this archetypal sun team was responsible for the popularization of such mons. not so on weatherless stall. not running physdef skarmory? oh sup you probably lose to mamoswine. not running chansey? oh sup you probably lose to hydreigon. these threats are not exactly "rare". they're solid OU and you WILL meet them, and when you do, you lose. period. one wall goes down cause you can't outpredict and suddenly your whole team falls apart because stall can't function if a key wall is down. i used to be running sdef skarmory because i had no room for jirachi (already had two steels and tentacruel, how much ground weakness do you want on a single team?) and every time i met a mamoswine i lost. is that what you call shitty teambuilding? of course it is, i'm a shit player! but when i switched to physdef skarm i started having more difficulty with tornadus-T. there is only so much room to optimize within 6 mons. with the artificial limitation of weatherless stall in place, i doubt i could improve my team beyond a certain point no matter how good of a player i was.

    i imagine weather semistall/balance is not quite so polarizing. haven't had much play experience with those to be honest. anyway i don't know what will fix the problem nor am i experienced enough to know (some would go so far as to say that there is no problem in this regard - i doubt i agree with that), but that's my experience trying to play weatherless stall - it's always a fun one, but not always in a good way. make of that what you will



    unrelated side note: holy crap i just found the increase/decrease size button on the edit box, where has this been all my life
  14. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex This game sucks. Ban everything and it might not.

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    I think the metagame would be a lot healthier without Deoxys, Hurricane-T, and Genesect.

    Deoxys-D performs the role of a hazard setter nearly identically to Deoxys-S. The only difference is that Deo-D is significantly slower (and by no means is Deo-D slow. It's not). Deo-S was banned because there was almost nothing capable of stopping it from doing what it did best. Even now, there's nothing that can reliably stop Deo-D from setting up one or more layers.

    As far as banning rain goes, sun would probably have to go with it, which I don't feel is necessary. Just by banning Tornadus-T, rain would instantly become balanced. Having literally one safe switch in (Jirachi) is pretty sad, especially considering that if Tornadus decides to u-turn out to dugtrio when you switch in jirachi, you can say bye to your Tornadus check. This thing brings too much to the table to promote a healthy OU metagame. It also almost singlehandedly (along with bff Genesect), crippled stall as a playstyle.

    Lastly, Genesect. If we lived in a metagame where dugtrio didn't exist, It wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem, but because of the existence of duggy, genesect is absurdly good. As bubbly stated, it's pretty ridiculous to suggest banning dugtrio + genesect or dugtrio by itself, so getting rid of genesect makes the most sense imo.
  15. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Let's not overstate things please. I won't say if i agree or disagree your opinion about the tiering of those pokes, however a few things stand out.

    First of all Deoxys-D has 2 solid counters, Espeon and Xatu. Don't mention to me their viability, or if they are easy to see coming, i am simply stating facts to dispute your false claims.

    Second, Torn-T doesn't have literally one safe switch in. Bronzong, Zapdos and Rotom-W all serve as good counters, however it sucks that only Zapdos has reliable recovery.

    This is all.
  16. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex This game sucks. Ban everything and it might not.

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    Haha. Idk why I forgot to mention Espeon and Xatu, considering I was talking about them in another post on the viability thread, but I would disagree that bronzong is a particularly safe switch in to Tornadus since it can't do anything to it in return and loses to both Starmie and Forretress, the two most common spinners currently, who it's most likely going to u-turn out to. I'm also surprised that I didn't mention zapdos since I've been using it myself as a tornadus-T check. silly me *sigh*
  17. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    LA, it's fine. Although I certainly doubt Xatu is going to survive Electric Gem-boosted Thunderbolts from Deo-D, having so few Pokes as "checks" certainly doesn't mean much as Espeon and Xatu are otherwise mediocre Pokemon in stats and movepool (and Pursuit bait, no less, for someone like Tyranitar or Scizor).

    Tornadus-T can work around most of its "checks" (those aren't counters, those are checks) via U-turn. Literally being faster is the only way to check Torn-T, and it can still survive a handful of different SE attacks due to decent bulk and U-turn out anyway. Other than Zapdos, none of Torn-T's other checks have reliable recovery.

    One More Thing!: I do this off-and-on thing where I try to use Sun like some other people in OU do. When I try to use Sun as an offensive tool, it all goes to high hell and I delete the team. But when I make a Cresselia-oriented team with Magnezone and Dugtrio as trappers, it's actually starting to be really good. So good I find Cresselia to be frighteningly bonkers in the right hands. And I suck at Sun, because I formerly had the false notion that Sun is meant to be offensively-oriented (it isn't - with a lot of Pokemon benefitting immensely from Sun thanks to Moonlight/Morning Sun/Synthesis, stall is actually super-viable with Sun). Obviously with all the Genesects running around my dream of Cresselia shooting up to OU on the usage stats might not happen as quickly as desired, but I am providing some food for thought along with one of my OU Spam Teams to see if other people agree that Cresselia is useful in this metagame. I do use her as a Terrakion counter/check, as she takes less than 50% from a X-Scissor when she has 252 Def EVs and is Bold. Not to mention this is also when Rocks are up.

    I might advertise Cresselia more thoroughly by also placing her on my Hail team with Abomasnow (Moonlight still heals for a solid amount in Hail/Rain/Sand, albeit not as much as in weatherless or Sun - Cresselia doesn't take a whole lot of non-residual damage because her 120/120/120 defenses laugh at a lot of Pokemon in general, though) in order to get her usage to shoot up like crazy. She's also a really good partner for plenty of teams in general; even Rain and Sand enjoy her company because she can sponge Fighting-type attacks aimed at other Pokes that well.
  18. Bizdis

    Bizdis

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    Another thing to consider about Genesect is how easily it fits onto just about every team out there. Tornadus T does not have that luxury, that doesn't mean that it is balanced, just far less splashable. One of the main counter arguments for Genesect being OU is that entry hazards hurt it badly, but that didn't stop Blaziken from being Uber.

    Just because Genesect checks so many different things doesn't mean that it should stay in OU. If anything, that's worse, because if Genesect is really such a good check to OU's top threats, then that makes it almost mandatory to run on a team, and thus, it over centralises the meta.

    Now, I don't think that having to run a particular pokemon over another because of a threat is a bad thing, quite the opposite in fact, but when you are using Genesect to counter 1/2 of the S rank threats (this does not include other Genesect!), at least 1/2 the A rank threats, and not only that, but even if by some low chance that NONE of the pokemon you are using Genesect to counter appear, that it can still be a very strong offensive threat just makes it far too powerful for OU.

    My personal belief is that Genesect should be banned, and that we should not even be thinking about introducing new pokemon to OU until we have sorted out this Genesect, Tornadus T and Deoxys D business.
  19. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex This game sucks. Ban everything and it might not.

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    This seems to be a pretty common opinion and I have to agree with it, really.
  20. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I also don't really get why we are trying new shit from Ubers when the OU meta is a clusterfuck right now...

    Pocket EDIT: Look HERE!
  21. Dice

    Dice what's a god to a nonbeliever
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    To be honest, I think the council made Kyurem-B a suspect is because the Beta server has it OU already, and Smogon just decided to do so as well, but I don't know.

    Nonetheless, I feel as though bitching about the current testing is not going to accomplish much. Worrying about the current suspect and what is going to be suspected next should be of more concern-- I agree with the above statements of Deoxys-D, Rain (specifically the Rain Genies), and Genesect being the primary concerns. If you aren't using a Genesect on a team atm I feel like your team is worse than if you were... :|
  22. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Genesect is ez really. Get the rocks down, and watch Genesect slowly die. Genesect is also not the best Scarfer, either - slower than +1 Salamence and +1 Volcarona; can't check +2 Stoutland like Terrakion. There are plenty of ways to beat Genesect, I really don't see where all the bitching is coming from, tbh. Sun has Chlorophyll mons & Volcarona, Sand has Stoutland. For any other teams, there are always Tailwind (or Trick Room), RP Landorus-I, RP or SubSalac Terrakion, SubSalac Garchomp, Breloom's Mach Punch, faster Scarf mons like Salamence, Latias, Mienshao, Landorus, Keldeo, Terrakion... etc. Defensive teams should be able to easily wall Genesect that can't raise its offense outside of Download and Charge Beam, and they have no shortage of hazards to punish Genesect for U-turning.

    Yes Genesect is an amazing pokemon that has certainly changed the metagame. Far from broken, though, as there are many flexible ways to deal with it, without resorting to specialized counters. Learn to deal with new threats -_-
  23. /B/utterfree

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    First of all, please stop calling Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T the "Rain Genies". Tornadus-T is useful outside of Rain, too. The thing about Thundurus-T is that nobody has made an argument for him being Suspected. Any particular reason why? I've seen both Torn-T and Thun-T on weatherless teams far more often than I see them on Rain teams. Is it just me? Perhaps. However, they're not exclusively useful in Rain, thus why they'd be Suspectable moreso than if their only niches were in Rain.

    Second of all, while Rain is a powerful entity, so are all the other weathers. Sand still has a good hand to play in OU, as it always has. Hail is being used more to counter Rain hard (and probably also because of the Dark Horse Project affecting some things that love Hail), and Sun is also being used more (I myself have finally made a competent Sun team that I am enjoying). All these weathers diversify the metagame, allowing Gen V OU to be interesting.

    Third of all, I see more hyper offense and weatherless VoltTurn teams than I do much else. Honestly, Genesect is a big contributor to both and part of what makes him so broken is stuff having to go up in order to shakily check him. Garchomp's return also doesn't do any favors, although I can agree that Salamence is a bigger problem.

    Fourth of all, I'm slowly devising a Stall team for OU involving some Pokes who I use on a routine basis (Jellicent, Cresselia, Ditto) in order to help prove Pocket's point that Stall is still viable even with so much broken shit challenging it.
  24. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    after a conversation with DTC and callforjudgment on #pokemon yesterday (a very good conversation, got me thinking about a lot of things) i find myself nodding my head to this statement. even STALL, yes STALL, could benefit from having a genesect on it. we were talking about how six-defensive-mon stall in the traditional sense is outdated, and running a single offensive "panic-button" check could solve a lot of problems. i adamantly disagreed because i didn't really feel that was stall anymore and because you lose out on a crucial slot for countering stuff... but really, genesect could potentially check enough things to justify the things you give up on countering by running it. thinking about it, five defensive mons + genesect is really not a bad team, if you can choose the right defensive mons. six defensive mons on the other hand is basically impossible right now.

    scary how EVERYTHING benefits from having a genesect on it
  25. Leader Fox

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    To me i don't think that Tornadus-T is broken, yes Rain is the dominant weather so of course you will see Tornadus-T be used more as Rain is the best weather, it received the most Abusers, Keldeo, Thuderus-T, Tornadus-t, Breloom, heck even Mamoswine with thick fat so if we can balance out the weather I'm sure Tornadus-T wouldn't be broken as a people think it is -_-. Personally i don't have a problem with tornadus-T

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