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Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by magic9mushroom, May 20, 2013.
I think he meant that it is in fact over 25%
are you really arguing over a .4% difference...
I honestly don't want to play a RBY meta with Mewtwo in the same way I don't want a GSC meta with Celebi. I don't care if you have a slight chance to beat him with whatever strategy the dude tried to rant, this is just... stupid, RBY is already centralized enough to have this. An uber doesn't necessarily need to be 101% unbeatable to be uber.
If Mewtwo can't beat Wrap, what can? Nothing is better suited to manhandling that cutesy bullshit because it OHKOs every decent trapper and has pretty high physical bulk to boot (bar none the highest special, for Clamp). Oh you thought you were gonna predict its Recover and switch in safely... Yeah. No, you die. But maybe it did Recover or you lucked out with full paralysis. Wow, now you have an 85% chance to deal a whopping 4% damage !! and force a switch. You have an 11.25% chance to take 100% damage. That's a lot more than Alakazam can say, who does diddly squat to Dragonite and is hardly able to OHKO Cloyster. It also dies to a single Wrap series (4-5 hits) + Hyper Beam. Or slowpoke Chansey who doesn't need to be paralyzed to get outsped and trapped. Whatever.
"Wrap beats Mewtwo" is another way to say "Wrap beats everything." If that's the case it seems pretty damn cut and dry to me that it should probably be banned. Mewtwo should remain banned as well if that's the only way to handle it. If Pokémon is Rock-Paper-Scissors, Mewtwo is a sledgehammer that destroys all three (and stalemates with mushroom). Wrap is a nuke that blows up everything, including Mewtwo. Gun is broken, Nuke is just more broken.
Unless Wrap really isn't that good, in which case it's actually just one of a few bad options that exist for combating Mewtwo in some limited capacity. If I paralyze Mewtwo and if I have the opportunity to bring in a trapper, keeping in mind Mewtwo can OHKO on the switch if it's not of the post-KO variety, I have a low-risk, lower-reward option for forcing it out. It's basically the younger brother of "threaten Explosion." (At least Lax and Eggy can't be OHKOed by Mewtwo!) Having a trapper doesn't mean you can beat Mewtwo, it just means you get your ass beat slightly less hard.
god what the hell is the opposite of a luvdisc can we begin voting on most frustrating and bad thread of all time yet or what
Well, I'm sorry about that.
Mr E.- Skill beats wrap. Wrap only 'beats' M2 on occasion if it just sits there just hoping for a miss. If you think something is OP because you can't beat without having a mindless counter then we have very different opinions on what being OP is.
I also never said wrap outright beats M2, I just said it makes it more manageable.
Of course Mewtwo is slightly more manageable with wrap in play, but it's still clearly Uber.
Other than the fact that it doesn't learn T-Wave, it's perfectly placed to destroy wrappers:
It's got high physical bulk and amazing special bulk.
It's easily outspeeds all wrappers.
It learns Psychic and Ice Beam coming from an amazing special to deal with Bel and Dragonte. It can also learn T-Bolt for Cloyster.
It's almost as if Mewtwo were perfectly designed to destroy wrappers. The reality is that he's basically designed to destroy EVERYTHING, wrap or no wrap. The fact that wrap makes him slightly more vulnerable to paralysis won't nerf him particularly.
Mewtwo does learn Thunder Wave, it's just that he typically doesn't use it.
you say "mindless counter" but all you mean is hard counter or check. seriously, a pokemon that doesn't have anything that can simply switch into it and either force it out or beat it, IS overpowered, because it doesn't have a "counter." your idea that a pokemon that has no counters isn't necessarily "overpowered" makes no sense, because a counter shouldn't need "skill" to switch in and force out a pokemon, which is what a counter exactly does. wrap doesn't counter mewtwo because no wrapper can simply switch into mewtwo and force it out on its own. tauros is the best ou pokemon and it has counters insofar as it has something that can switch directly into it and force it out or beat it straight up. so does chansey, so snorlax, so does everything. mewtwo does not. the best you can do is pp stall it or freeze it or get lucky against it. what you are talking about is not just wrappers beating mewtwo but a whole strategy working correctly. if you have skill AND luck you can beat mewtwo with this wrap + explosion strategy, but you may have to sacrifice one or more pokemon in the process. if you have to do all of that to even have a chance to beat mewtwo, it is overpowered. mewtwo has no checks or hard counters. it has no single pokemon that can come directly in and scare it off at least once or beat it. and the presence of wrap doesn't mean anything with paralysis is a counter to mewtwo given that mewtwo is less likely to stay in and get paralyzed, because it isn't the paralyzer mewtwo is worried about; mewtwo can take paralysis and still KO the paralyzer. it is how paralysis will limit its ability to deal with OTHER pokemon that mewtwo is worried about. but mewtwo can stay in and take paralysis and still KO one or more pokemon, and all you have accomplished in paralyzing mewtwo is you've made it slightly more manageable but still incredibly hard to switch into. mewtwo is broken and neither wrap as a complex multi-part strategy nor any individual wrapper is a RELIABLE COUNTER to it. which you even admit when you say "I also never said wrap outright beats M2, I just said it makes it more manageable." if nothing can outright beat it, it doesn't have a counter. referring to that type of counter as "mindless" is superfluous because that is simply how countering works, whether you think it is mindless or not, and the pervasiveness of that type of countering in the game doesn't mean there is no strategy or staleness in the game or anything like that, because the game has always been about finding weaknesses and breaking through hard counters before your opponent. and having at least one of that type of counter is requisite for something to be allowed in OU. your current idea of what "broken" entails is really not something anyone is going to agree with. you're making a distinction between something being beaten by a counter and something being beaten with "skill" that doesn't need to be made. it isn't like since something has a hard counter it takes no skill to beat it, or because something requires skill to beat it has no hard counters. these aren't mutually exclusive notions.
Tauros has no counters, although Starmie/Slowbro/Zapdos can switch into it and Thunder Wave it. On the other hand, it can't counter many things itself either.
Dragonite has no sure counters, because anything switching into it is switching in as it uses Agility and is thus vulnerable to Wrap (and Gengar risks 4HKO from Blizzard before it can 4HKO with Night Shade).
Snorlax has no sure counters, because it's got a ton of viable sets and a crapload of bulk. Any non-Amnesia Snorlax is forced to Selfdestruct by Withdraw Slowbro, but Amnesialax can boost alongside it and either try to freeze it with Ice Beam or directly kill it with Thunderbolt. Amnesialax will always have issues getting past something, and Alakazam's crits make it cry, but honestly getting better than a 1-for-1 trade is pretty hard.
None of these are anywhere near as powerful as Mewtwo.
I never was a fan of the "it doesn't have a counter" justification for broken-ness because it places too much emphasis on face-smashing offense as being the defining factor of a broken mon. Granted, it's probably a good way to look at it for newer gens given the speed at which those games are played, but for older, slower gens that line of reasoning is questionable. It can lead to glass cannons being considered suspect-worthy and questionable defensive mons being ignored.
And it ignores stuff that can be played around without having a definite "counter". I mean, Reflect Alakazam has no OU counter apart from Slowbro (and maybe Light Screen Chansey), but Slowbro's still not a staple because you can play around Alakazam without using it.
snorlax and tauros can both be switched in on by lapras, cloyster, slowbro, exeggutor, and a few other things and get beaten one on one. tauros CAN beat its counters with luck but that is often the case with pokemon and their counters; it just so happens that in rby luck has a larger impact especially where tauros is concerned because of its high crit rate and para rate. but "on average" those pokemon make good counters for tauros. the fact that snorlax can use multiple sets doesnt mean anything because all of its sets have something that can come in and beat it or force it out (or in other words, counter the sets). mewtwo is not beaten by wrap because no wrapper can switch in on it. it is also clearly not "beaten" by para and you probably have to sack something to set up para and get in anything in an attempt to take advantage of its decreased speed. dragonite is an odd case and is exactly why wrap is so controversial, but the fact of the matter is, dragonite is also relying on "luck" to beat its counters because it is unlikely that dragonite is going to wear down and beat anything on its own without missing unless its had some help wearing its counters down by supporting team mates earlier in the game. hence, the water types make good switch ins for it and it isn't easy to set up agility for free anyway. that there ARE good switchins for those pokemon is important. mewtwo has a few decent switchins, but something like slowbro or chansey or starmie is probably your best bet. they can come in and try to pp stall it or freeze it or in slowbro's case you can get lucky with crits. on the other hand, you can try some convoluted wrap strategy that will often cost you one or two pokemon before you can put yourself in a position to force it out. what i'm really saying here is that if mewtwo DOES have a counter, "wrap" isn't the best place to look. but mewtwo doesn't really have good counters which is why it is THE goddamn uber.
i also do not agree that "not having a counter" is a bad measure for brokenness. that was a big reason that wobbuffett got banned in rse. other pokemon (celebi in gsc) have been banned for worse reasons. also i can't particularly think of a pokemon (arguably gsc snorlax given LK? but let's not argue about that here) that doesn't have at least 1 good hard check or counter for every one of its sets. if anything, even "not having a reasonable enough amount of good OU checks and counters" has historically been considered a good measure for brokenness (dppt salamence, anything that has been banned for overcentralizing a metagame). i really am not sure what measure for brokenness you guys think is good here. beating every pokemon or walling every other pokemon singlehandedly? mewtwo is as close to doing BOTH of those as any pokemon, unless you want to blow up on it or bank on a large amount of luck.
Dragonite is 'countered' by a specific strategy rather than a specific pokemon, so it's manageable.
Also Shrapn3l, by your logic Zapdos would be Uber against teams that don't run rocks. Nothing other than rocks really force it out, and it has a chance to beat anything 1v1. So according to you, it'd be Uber without rocks, but that's rubbish because I constantly beat Zapdoses with my non-rock team. Apart from rocks, Zapdos doesn't have a definitive counter, but can be played around and beaten with skill.
To a lesser extent, then same is true with M2. It's to a lesser extent because he's much harder to play around, but it can be done. Let's not forget you also have your own M2 as well.
Also, stop assuming all I'm going to do is wrap-boom and be as predictable as someone who has never played the game before. The point is you pressure the M2, and it has to decide whether it wants to stay in or not. Saying stuff like 'well if it switches out when you boom you just lost a pokemon for nothing' is pointless theorycraft because that's player dependent.
The reality is, on pure mechanics, M2 has a good chance to lose to a wrap team if it's just going to sit there and rely on its uberness to try and win.
Cloyster can't 2HKO Tauros, while Lapras only does with max damage rolls, and it 4HKOs and outspeeds them. So no, they don't counter it. Cloyster counters physical Snorlax with Clamp if and only if it's not paraslammed before it gets Clamp off (35%), and Lapras is 3HKOed by Snorlax more often than not even discounting the possibility of paraslams.
Exeggutor 3HKOs Tauros and 4HKOs Snorlax while they both 3HKO it, so no, it doesn't counter them either.
Slowbro beats Tauros straight up with little difficulty, but switching into it is almost a coin-flip. Slowbro has to switch in, use Thunder Wave/Reflect/Withdraw, and then successfully Rest in order to defeat Tauros (due to Tauros's guaranteed 4HKO on unboosted Slowbro allowing it to fish for a crit otherwise), and even then it's not guaranteed. Also, Tauros can use Thunderbolt, which will break Slowbro's Rest with a 3HKO unless it somehow managed to set up Amnesia before Resting.
Slowbro cannot switch into all Laxen and win - it beats physical Lax but not Amnesialax.
Because you can totally tell by looking at the words "magic9mushroom sent out Snorlax" what moves it has? The correct "counters" for some sets (e.g. Rest Rhydon for Body Slam Tanklax) are complete suicide against others (in the case above, Blizzard Amnesialax would OHKO and Fishlax would usually OHKO after a Body Slam).
(Besides, the most common Lax set - Slam/Beam/Quake/SD - has only two OU counters, and they're both hilariously shaky because Cloyster has to not get paraslammed and Snorlax will just blow up Slowbro.)
What Mewtwo has that Tauros/Snorlax/Dragonite all don't is the combination of brute power (Amnesia + STAB Psychic + 154 base Special + 130 base Speed = ZOMG), durability (no weaknesses, physical bulk approaching Snorlax's, special bulk second only to Chansey even before Amnesia, and of course Recover) and versatility (epic movepool by RBY standards, and it switches into any unboosted special attacker for free while not being at all vulnerable to a double-switch). Compared to Mewtwo, Snorlax is lacking in the power department, Tauros is somewhat lacking in both the power and durability departments, and Dragonite is extremely lacking in durability and somewhat limited in versatility (because it 100% needs AgiliWrap, and Wrap is a lock-in move).
Isn't the idea of a good OU team to not counter Tauros but instead have all the Pokemon check it if it tries to attack them? That way Tauros doesn't weaken off your team for a sweep and instead at the worst you cripple it and lose a Pokemon, and a crippled Tauros is basically dead. Even Chansey can paralyze it or threaten with Counter. The only Pokemon that might have to switch are a weakened Golem or Rhydon, as they can be finished off with Blizzard, and at that point, the predicted attack... becomes rather predictable.
idk that's just my experience, I am kind of new at RBY
Mostly correct. Basically everything in RBY OU can potentially paralyse it (except Cloyster, and Tauros isn't switching into Cloyster) and most things with STAB attacks will 3HKO it. Its existence does make Rest a whole lot less attractive, but in all honesty most teams hold up pretty well to Tauros.
(The really dangerous team weaknesses are weaknesses to Slowbro, Starmie and Alakazam - the latter two usually resulting from recklessly dropping Chansey. Starmie and Alakazam can tear apart half a team in a few turns if given a chance, and a team without any way to break Slowbro's Rest - more common than you might think - will be inevitably and brutally steamrolled once it comes in.)
Magic- A healthy cloyster switches into lax pretty comfortably. If it gets paralysed it can comfortably rest loop lax. It can technically rest loop tauros too, but tauros is likely to crit through it.
Lax's 4HKO is guaranteed, though, so it can just keep going until a paraslam-fullpara or crit after which Cloyster dies.
about "countering" the normal types: okay, fine. i admit that i don't have these matchups and damage exchanges memorized, but forgive me, they have never in my pkmn career really struck me as that important. the point is, although they don't all easily beat tauros and lax one on one, they always switch into them without thought if in good condition/full health in essentially every OU battle. it happens ALL THE TIME. and pretty much always, unless there is some luck involved, tauros and standard lax will switch out, because nobody wants to waste their tauros or lax on a one on one. these pokemon make GOOD checks, because even if they dont beat tauros and lax they are going to severely neuter them, and tauros and lax can't just easily recover off the damage from the exchange and then immediately roll over something else like it never happened like mewtwo can. they run out of steam, mewtwo doesn't really. perhaps with para support a wrapper could severely neuter mewtwo, but you need that para support and you need to not miss and you still somehow need to switch the wrapper in. they can't switch in and force it out. very little can. that's all there is to it.
Comparing Mewtwo's power to to the power of any OU pokemon is stupid. Even against Tauros a lot of things can go 1 on 1 or even slightly better. Granted, Tauros doesn't have a 100% counter but that's pretty much true for any physical pokemon. You deal with Tauros with aggresion because everything can hit Tauros hard. Even Zapdos is the same story, assuming no rock even things like Chansey / Alakazam / Tauros / Snorlax match up decently well (plus, you actually HAVE the option to run a full counter in this case to begin with, and it's not that golem/rhydon are useless pokemon otherwise. gimme a mewtwo counter (or two counters) that is as good as golem/rhydon and that counters and destroys mewtwo the way golem and rhydon do to zapdos and it'll be a completely different story). Tauros is just so good because it rapes low health pokemon but Mewtwo doesn't care about the health condition of anyone, it'll destroy everything and recover off any attack that is not an explosion (and not even explosion guarantees anything). Kills everything and never dies, it's the epitome of being overpowered.
And no, wrap doesn't change anything. Mewtwo's still as good.
Going back to the topic itslef: Dre, to accomplish the "strategy" you have been talking about itt you need to get a pokemon in play to paralyze Mewtwo and then switch it back to send the wrapper. ( i guess youll agree with me that you are not sending vict/dnite to stun/twave it because mewtwo will ohko you right back, so using the same pokemon to paralyze and trap mewtwo is not an option). During this time, mewtwo has had the chance to set up either once or twice and still use the turn you switch to your trapper to attack you and have a 75% chance to ko the trapper. So what do you do about this? Sac a pokemon everytime to get your wrapper safely? So what you are saying is essentially that you do that just so that you get a wrap user in play that does 5% damage per turn and can miss and die, just to give you the opportunity to get an exploder in, when exploding involves saccing yet another pokemon and explosion doesnt even kill mewtwo plus your opponent could outpredict you so you have sacced two pokemon and mewtwo is still intact. So is this your plan?
And no, "playing with skill" is not a valid answer because skill doesn't solve everything as you are making it sound. You can't prevent mewtwo from attacking when you are switching your pokemon regardless of how skilled you are. "Pressuring Mewtwo" also sounds legit on paper, but, in practice, it's the same story. It doesn't help that for all intents and purposes applying pressure is simply a term you used to refer to applying the same wrap/explosion strategy just to give it different looks.
And heck if mewtwo is that scared about explosions and wrap just run barrier.
Anyway Dre, your wrong reasoning comes from the fact that you are selling wrap's impact on Mewtwo like 100 times higher than it actually is. You say that wrap turns Mewtwo from OP to "manageable" but that's not true. Mewtwo is OP and with wrap it remains OP. Wrap has been allowed in smogon for ages and mewtwo has always been op and uber and you won't suddenly change that. I know what im talking about because ive played ubers and ive played it very aggresively with explosions and such to decent success but a big factor is that mew offers a lot of coverage. This still doesn't change the fact that mewtwo is 100% op, because ubers is ridiculously centered around dealing with mewtwo it's insane. And wrap doesn't really change ANYTHING about it because mewtwo is the worst matchup for all wrappers and not only because of how good mewtwo is but because all wrappers are easily ohkoed by mewtwo and because mewtwo has one of the best physical bulks in the game. If you are using the wrapper just to get your exploder in just skip the wrap part and find a way to get your exploder in directly which involves the same amount of risks or even less.
tl; dr: if there is a pokemon in any generation that needs to be banned the most that's rby mewtwo. Wrap or not, it doesn't matter. If mewtwo didn't fit the criteria for a pokemon to be banned, no other pokemon in any gen would.
What you said was that "not having a counter" is a demonstration of something being OP. Tauros/Snorlax/Dragonite have "no counters", but are not OP. Mewtwo has "no counters", and is very OP. It's not "having no counters" that breaks Mewtwo, it's "defeating almost everything with trivial ease, walling and setting up on every single specialist not named Slowbro or Mewtwo, not being vulnerable to attrition, AND having no counters" that breaks it and makes it Uber.
(Also, yes, I do know how to play around Tauros, I've even killed it with Chansey a few times via mindgames and paralysis hax, and I actually think the bull is somewhat overrated. But it still doesn't have a strict counter because of its glass-cannon nature.)
Crystal- The M2 set that will be OHKOing wrappers will be running amnesia and recover, that's two moves you can force to get your wrapper in. You could use your own M2 or Mew to do it, or even something random like lscreen+stoss chansey or something.
If M2 is now running barrier, that's a third move to get a switch on. It's not unreasonable to force it to recover with your own M2 (it obviously has to recover at some point, otherwise it wouldn't bother with the move).
If it's running amnesia psychic barrier recover, then there is obviously a weakness there that can be exploited by other pokemon, like slowbro or something, otherwise every M2 would run barrier. For one, it means that there M2 can freeze or paralyse your own, allowing yours to para theirs will taking status in return, and possibly forcing it to recover.
Saying that you've played Ubers for years is pointless here because I know people didn't play with wrap all that time. It's a different meta.
And neither have you. I would suggest that you put your money where your mouth is, build a RBY Ubers team with Wrappers, and demonstrate this alleged balance of Mewtwo.