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Gen 1 By request: Discuss Mewtwo here.

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by magic9mushroom, May 20, 2013.

  1. Dre89

    Dre89

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    You're right, no one has played wrap Ubers extensively, which is why I'm saying M2 requires a new look. On mechanics alone, he's beatable assuming the M2 just sits there and tries to use his uberness to win.

    One tourney won't be enough to demonstrate anything, especially if it's best of 1 single elimination. It's not as if I said M2 to beat or anything, I just think it's more manageable than it is without wrap.

    As for whether it's Uber or not, I find the Ubers tier in general pretty pointless in a gen where you still have to use four OUs anyway.
  2. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    So this means you're not playing in the tourney then?

    [youtube]1TphEh0Qgv0[/youtube]
  3. Dre89

    Dre89

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    I probably will, I'm just saying that I'm not expecting to clean house just because I'm using a wrap team, and that it's too early to make judgements on the meta.

    You have to remember too, I have my particular view on the situation because I find the Ubers tier in RBY to be pointless. If however, RBY was like later gens in that you could use 6 Ubers in the tier, rather than 2 and 4 OUs, then yeah I would agree that M2 would be Uber, and should be in a separate meta to the standard one.
  4. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    You can't use 6 Ubers in GSC either, and even in many later gens, OU pokemon are frequently seen in Ubers.

    The reason Mewtwo and Mew are banned from OU in RBY is because they excessively polarise and centralise the meta to the point where not only are they staples, but the very few plausible answers to them are also staples.
  5. Dre89

    Dre89

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    But in most other gens there are at least 6 Ubers pokemon. There is enough non-OU centralisation to justify it not being the standard tier, because in those gens the number of viable pokemon in OU is significantly higher than those in Ubers.

    RBY Ubers just makes two team slots mandatory. I really don't see that as justifying making it the ban tier rather than the playable one. Even then, OU has mandatory pokemon anyway, in the sense that you're handicapping yourself pointlessly if you don't use them.

    The original Mew-M2 ban in the Nintendo tourneys made sense because they were 3v3. The difference in the number of viable pokemon with them banned in 3v3 is significant, so that's understandable.There isn't really much difference between RBY Ubers and OU in terms of the number of viable pokemon, at least not a big enough one to justify a ban tier in my eyes.
  6. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l

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    i also revised my argument to include "checks" (i changed my argument in the very post you are quoting) because i realize that "counter" is maybe too strong a word, and that requiring a pokemon that can switch in and beat it one on one is a bit ridiculous, but it is also not necessary to consider only a pokemon with that ability a "counter." all i ever meant to begin with is "things that can switch in directly, threaten the pokemon, and force it out." so having none or too few of "those" is what makes mewtwo broken, but i think it is fine to call "those" things "counters" just for the sake of argument. whatever, it is not important. we essentially agree, no point in debating some technicality.
  7. Nyara

    Nyara

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    I can't even belive someone suggest RBY Mewtwo is not ill broken and godly OP.

    Let's see why he is OP:

    - He can just OHKO anything that its coverage can make a SE.
    - He can just OHKO everything with 2+ Psychic, bar Chansey and other Psy pal.
    - 25,4% of critical just if you're too lazy to use Amnesia.

    ...on a game where non even Hyper Beam Snorlax can archive such godly archivement.

    - At the same time, he's part from the best type of the game: Psychic.
    - His physical bulk is superior to everything else, bar Cloyster, Onix, Golem, Rhydon, Slowbro, Lapras, Snorlax, by a minimal difference (less than 10%).
    - His special bulk is superior to everything else by a huge distance (more than 25% of Exeggutor), bar Chansey.

    In other words, the is THE supreme tank of the game and the same time, he is THE supreme powerhorse of the game, all in one, no weakness, this is even not taking in account him's moveset.

    Now, by just that he is broken, but now let's look at him's moves:

    - Barrier + Amnesia + Recover means you can't just KO it, he becomes literally and completely inmortal, unless your opponent is excesive highly lucky with criticals. When I mean excesive, I mean excesive, good luck with chances below 5% to actually archive the KO. In other words, all you have at your hands is the option to explode it (you'll only archive the KO if the explosion is also a critical) or just aim for the freeze (a thing that only a Chansey and other Mewtwo can try, protip: he'll win more offen against Chansey that Chansey against him). You can also aim for the paralyze: it can work but it usually doesn't, why? Simple: You're still needing a heck as hell of luck with the Criticals to archive the KO, with the paralyze you're just improving your chances 1,25 of chance to the already low 3-6%, and, yeah, paralyzed Mewtwo can't be frozen.

    - STAB Psychic is just resisted by Psychic pals; no one of them can actually combat Mewtwo because their lower as hell special bulk, power and usually speed. All you can do is try luck with a Mew against sets without coverage or with Amnesia Slobro if he forgots Thunderbolt; no problem, Mewtwo stilll had farest superior chance to beat both even without coverage, thanks to its abussive 25,4% chance of critical and the special defense down of Psychic.

    - Only if you want to do less-stally games, you can also forgoe Barrier and/or Recover for just perfect him's coverage. Thunderbolt and Ice Beam will OHKO everything that is weak to it and allow Mewtwo to participate on a freeze war against Chansey if he wants to (don't forget you don't have any need to keep your Mewtwo agaisnt Chansey all the time, you can just keep swithching and wasting the limited PP) and more important: against other Mewtwo.

    - If you're feeling unlucky, you can also just put Selfdestruct and just blow the enemy Mewtwo, Mew or Chansey, still, it's usually just recomended once you defeated all the others Pokémon.

    - If you're feeling lucky, you can just swap Ice Beam for Submission and aim for a OHKO against Chansey; even if you don't archive a critical, it will hard pressure Chansey to recover most of the time and she will just be unnable to freeze war you too much before eventually failing down. It can leave you prone to OHKO Explosions, so, take care.

    - If you're bored, you can try almost any good set that is used on a OU Pokémon already, incluiding being a superior Tauros, superior Snorlax, superior Chansey, superior everything bar Sleepers and Wrappers (just because he doesn't have those moves).

    Ah, and yeah, even when Wrap is powerful: it can't defeat Mewtwo, even if you're lucky (its not strange to be lucky with that thing), you can't KO it before running out of PP unless Mewtwo doesn't have any partner with him. And still, most of the time you'll need to explode something, that means he's going ALWAYS get a K,O, unless you do something I said before; freeze it, mirror him with other Mewtwo or being stupidly lucky with criticals.

    Gosh, I don't even know why I'm wasting my time, it's obvious RBY Mewtwo is THE uber from all times, not even Kyogre is that good. I din't even talked about him's godly speed, he just tie with Jolteon and Aerodactyl and is surpassed by Electrode.

    Oh, yeah, when counters/checks are not completely correlated to being OP and broken...

    Hard Counters: Nope.
    Soft Counters: If he's paralyzed... other Mewtwo or Mew and/or sacrificing most of your team for cheap damage if he doesn't have Recover, extreme luck.
    Hard Checks: Nope.
    Soft Checks: Chansey, Mew, ParaWrapper Dragonite, blowing your Snorlax while he's paralyzed, ultra-mega-extreme luck.
    Mirror: Himself.
  8. Dre89

    Dre89

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    I applaud the effort, but you just reiterated stuff that we already know.

    I have wrapped M2 to death before. I've also done enough collective wrap damage on one to KO it (it just had chances to recover due to misses and poor play on my part).
  9. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Why should anyone care about this?
  10. AraShaun

    AraShaun

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    That's basically saying "I would have won if Gengar took damage from Explosion"
  11. Dre89

    Dre89

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    The point is that it's realistic to KO M2 with wrap outright. Had I not been stupid, the M2 would have been wrapped to death. That's far from broken in my eyes.
  12. Nyara

    Nyara

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    Then, you're blind.

    IF Mewtwo is completely alone, I mean, 1 VS 6, yes, you can win against him - not all the time -, but, you forgot the fact that he DOES have partners, in other words, he can just keep switching once you start wrapping until your wrapper run off of PP, it will result on the KO of maybe 1 o 2 Mewtwo's partner, but that is pretty much all, he will just come again, Recover, Amnesia, good game (unless your Mewtwo is still alive to mirror him's Mewtwo, Mew can also stop an ill Mewtwo, sometimes).
  13. AraShaun

    AraShaun

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    Yeah, tbh I see no concievable way of Mewtwo being not broken in any RBY meta. We are talking about the most Powerful Pokemon in most gens (Relative, I know, but he's up there), in a Gen that he was best in. The only way he could even be considered for OU is if they banned Amnesia on him, but those kind of bans are finnicky, and even then he would still be a complete powerhouse
  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Mewtwo's still broken without Amnesia. Losing Amnesia degrades it to "merely" a better-than-Zam special duelist with better-than-Starmie coverage and better-than-all-of-OU physical durability (Recover). Amnesia Mewtwo only really tacks on "better-than-Slowbro sweeper threat" to that list.
  15. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Yeah, without Amnesia, Mewtwo is still unbeatable. With Amnesia, it's unstoppable as well.
  16. Nyara

    Nyara

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    Maybe, and just maybe he may not be broken if you don't... (this is just for fun!)...

    - Blizzard
    - Fire Blast
    - Thunder
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Psychic
    - Amnesia
    - Recover

    Even there, I still doubt about it, he's just supreme when we talk about taking special hits and can still use Barrier for the physical ones, that Critical Hit rate and speed are still godlike, and even with merely Confusion and Hyper Beam he still hits pretty hard (and more when you factor him's Critical Hit rate). Mewtwo's Confusion hits as hard as Slowbro's Psychic. Counter, Submission and Bubblebeam are also over there for beating one at one most of the physical guys on OU.
  17. Joim

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    That player was bad.
  18. Dre89

    Dre89

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    The very fact that it has to switch out is what shows it's not broken with wrap,

    I don't see how something can be broken if there are numerous pokemon who force it out after its paralysed. If it wants to stay in against these pokemon, then it needs to avoid paralysis, meaning it then needs to run away from a lot of other pokemon.

    Either way, M2 will have to switch out on a fair few pokemon.

    As for saying 'well it can just switch in and recover/amnesia' um, maybe just don't play bad? With good prediction and general play, you can always make M2 pay a penalty for coming in. Seems like people are setting a double-standard here because of its reputation. It seems as if because of its rep as an Uber, if you can't beat it mindlessly then people will just always consider it broken. M2 with wrap is a challenge, but is definitely beatable with good play.

    If you paralyse it, it can't switch in 'safely' on wrappers. If it's not paralysed and comes in on wrap, you can just wrap-switch to paralysis.The point is, forcing out M2 often and making it scared of paralysis nullifies its threat significantly.
  19. Mr.E

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    For someone who has stated Wrap isn't broken you sure make it sound incredibly broken when it comes to discussing how easy Mewtwo is to face with it, the pokemon with easily the best combination of bulk, coverage and power to survive hits and punish misses.
  20. Dre89

    Dre89

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    It's not broken because it can still be beaten with good play, which is exactly the argument I'm making about M2 with wrap in play.

    Wrap is beaten by good play, so it's not broken. M2 can't just afford to take para and sit there mindlessly all day with wrap legal, therefore M2 isn't broken either.
  21. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    If Mewtwo can't be beaten with "good play," just a single gimmick (Wrap) which doesn't even actually work that well, you're not making the same argument at all.

    That's just how trappers work, though. You can't be slower than them, unless you're banking on a miss, or you'll get chipped down for free. Mewtwo isn't immune to that behavior if it happens to be slower (paralyzed) but that doesn't make it suddenly NOT overall ridiculous. Mewtwo is more resilient against the gimmick than everything else, it still beats the pants off everything in all other scenarios. And trappers still can't switch into Mewtwo, only dissuade Mewtwo from switching into them, because it will OHKO them all. Hope you're running a full team of 'em, since otherwise Mewtwo will just switch into anything else.

    Besides, nobody needs safeguarded from PAR more than trappers themselves. Mewtwo, plus Mew and the better half of OU, win the speed war if everyone is paralyzed... not that it matters, since periodically losing a turn screws with trap moves anyway (sorry Dragonite).
  22. Dre89

    Dre89

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    I said he can be beaten by good play, not can't.

    To be honest, I care little for this theory that wrap doesn't beat M2 because I've already beaten M2 with it with a team I just threw together, having played like 3 Ubers matches before that.


    If I can win battles with a rough draft team against opposition teams that I don't know very well, then it's reasonable to believe that wrap nullifies his threat. I know for a fact that it can work in practice.

    If you're letting M2 come in for free a lot, then you're playing badly. Wrap or not, every mon on your team should be able to punish an M2 switch in, unless you have a really safe switch in or back your prediction (less ideal, as prediction is a lottery at high level play).

    You seem to be forgetting that whatever strategy 2 opts for, it has to run away from half a team in order to preserve that strategy. That's far from broken. Also remember that once he's paralysed, he can be subjected to switch ins from exploders or general hard hitters.

    And it's not impossible to get a wrapper in on 2. When you use a wrap team extensively, you learn how to get them in on things that have threatening moves to them. That's just part of good play. At some point, 2 will have to use a non-attacking move. You can create openings for your wrappers, I've done it multiple times.

    You can say that one mistake will cost you, but that's often the case in high level play anyway. That's also why a good team has numerous back-up plans. You might pack additional wrappers, go for a boom etc. a good team will have multiple plans for offence and defence, you just use the most probable ones first.

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