Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by magic9mushroom, May 20, 2013.
So this means you're not playing in the tourney then?
I probably will, I'm just saying that I'm not expecting to clean house just because I'm using a wrap team, and that it's too early to make judgements on the meta.
You have to remember too, I have my particular view on the situation because I find the Ubers tier in RBY to be pointless. If however, RBY was like later gens in that you could use 6 Ubers in the tier, rather than 2 and 4 OUs, then yeah I would agree that M2 would be Uber, and should be in a separate meta to the standard one.
You can't use 6 Ubers in GSC either, and even in many later gens, OU pokemon are frequently seen in Ubers.
The reason Mewtwo and Mew are banned from OU in RBY is because they excessively polarise and centralise the meta to the point where not only are they staples, but the very few plausible answers to them are also staples.
But in most other gens there are at least 6 Ubers pokemon. There is enough non-OU centralisation to justify it not being the standard tier, because in those gens the number of viable pokemon in OU is significantly higher than those in Ubers.
RBY Ubers just makes two team slots mandatory. I really don't see that as justifying making it the ban tier rather than the playable one. Even then, OU has mandatory pokemon anyway, in the sense that you're handicapping yourself pointlessly if you don't use them.
The original Mew-M2 ban in the Nintendo tourneys made sense because they were 3v3. The difference in the number of viable pokemon with them banned in 3v3 is significant, so that's understandable.There isn't really much difference between RBY Ubers and OU in terms of the number of viable pokemon, at least not a big enough one to justify a ban tier in my eyes.
i also revised my argument to include "checks" (i changed my argument in the very post you are quoting) because i realize that "counter" is maybe too strong a word, and that requiring a pokemon that can switch in and beat it one on one is a bit ridiculous, but it is also not necessary to consider only a pokemon with that ability a "counter." all i ever meant to begin with is "things that can switch in directly, threaten the pokemon, and force it out." so having none or too few of "those" is what makes mewtwo broken, but i think it is fine to call "those" things "counters" just for the sake of argument. whatever, it is not important. we essentially agree, no point in debating some technicality.
I can't even belive someone suggest RBY Mewtwo is not ill broken and godly OP.
Let's see why he is OP:
- He can just OHKO anything that its coverage can make a SE.
- He can just OHKO everything with 2+ Psychic, bar Chansey and other Psy pal.
- 25,4% of critical just if you're too lazy to use Amnesia.
...on a game where non even Hyper Beam Snorlax can archive such godly archivement.
- At the same time, he's part from the best type of the game: Psychic.
- His physical bulk is superior to everything else, bar Cloyster, Onix, Golem, Rhydon, Slowbro, Lapras, Snorlax, by a minimal difference (less than 10%).
- His special bulk is superior to everything else by a huge distance (more than 25% of Exeggutor), bar Chansey.
In other words, the is THE supreme tank of the game and the same time, he is THE supreme powerhorse of the game, all in one, no weakness, this is even not taking in account him's moveset.
Now, by just that he is broken, but now let's look at him's moves:
- Barrier + Amnesia + Recover means you can't just KO it, he becomes literally and completely inmortal, unless your opponent is excesive highly lucky with criticals. When I mean excesive, I mean excesive, good luck with chances below 5% to actually archive the KO. In other words, all you have at your hands is the option to explode it (you'll only archive the KO if the explosion is also a critical) or just aim for the freeze (a thing that only a Chansey and other Mewtwo can try, protip: he'll win more offen against Chansey that Chansey against him). You can also aim for the paralyze: it can work but it usually doesn't, why? Simple: You're still needing a heck as hell of luck with the Criticals to archive the KO, with the paralyze you're just improving your chances 1,25 of chance to the already low 3-6%, and, yeah, paralyzed Mewtwo can't be frozen.
- STAB Psychic is just resisted by Psychic pals; no one of them can actually combat Mewtwo because their lower as hell special bulk, power and usually speed. All you can do is try luck with a Mew against sets without coverage or with Amnesia Slobro if he forgots Thunderbolt; no problem, Mewtwo stilll had farest superior chance to beat both even without coverage, thanks to its abussive 25,4% chance of critical and the special defense down of Psychic.
- Only if you want to do less-stally games, you can also forgoe Barrier and/or Recover for just perfect him's coverage. Thunderbolt and Ice Beam will OHKO everything that is weak to it and allow Mewtwo to participate on a freeze war against Chansey if he wants to (don't forget you don't have any need to keep your Mewtwo agaisnt Chansey all the time, you can just keep swithching and wasting the limited PP) and more important: against other Mewtwo.
- If you're feeling unlucky, you can also just put Selfdestruct and just blow the enemy Mewtwo, Mew or Chansey, still, it's usually just recomended once you defeated all the others Pokémon.
- If you're feeling lucky, you can just swap Ice Beam for Submission and aim for a OHKO against Chansey; even if you don't archive a critical, it will hard pressure Chansey to recover most of the time and she will just be unnable to freeze war you too much before eventually failing down. It can leave you prone to OHKO Explosions, so, take care.
- If you're bored, you can try almost any good set that is used on a OU Pokémon already, incluiding being a superior Tauros, superior Snorlax, superior Chansey, superior everything bar Sleepers and Wrappers (just because he doesn't have those moves).
Ah, and yeah, even when Wrap is powerful: it can't defeat Mewtwo, even if you're lucky (its not strange to be lucky with that thing), you can't KO it before running out of PP unless Mewtwo doesn't have any partner with him. And still, most of the time you'll need to explode something, that means he's going ALWAYS get a K,O, unless you do something I said before; freeze it, mirror him with other Mewtwo or being stupidly lucky with criticals.
Gosh, I don't even know why I'm wasting my time, it's obvious RBY Mewtwo is THE uber from all times, not even Kyogre is that good. I din't even talked about him's godly speed, he just tie with Jolteon and Aerodactyl and is surpassed by Electrode.
Oh, yeah, when counters/checks are not completely correlated to being OP and broken...
Hard Counters: Nope.
Soft Counters: If he's paralyzed... other Mewtwo or Mew and/or sacrificing most of your team for cheap damage if he doesn't have Recover, extreme luck.
Hard Checks: Nope.
Soft Checks: Chansey, Mew, ParaWrapper Dragonite, blowing your Snorlax while he's paralyzed, ultra-mega-extreme luck.
I applaud the effort, but you just reiterated stuff that we already know.
I have wrapped M2 to death before. I've also done enough collective wrap damage on one to KO it (it just had chances to recover due to misses and poor play on my part).
Why should anyone care about this?
That's basically saying "I would have won if Gengar took damage from Explosion"
The point is that it's realistic to KO M2 with wrap outright. Had I not been stupid, the M2 would have been wrapped to death. That's far from broken in my eyes.
Then, you're blind.
IF Mewtwo is completely alone, I mean, 1 VS 6, yes, you can win against him - not all the time -, but, you forgot the fact that he DOES have partners, in other words, he can just keep switching once you start wrapping until your wrapper run off of PP, it will result on the KO of maybe 1 o 2 Mewtwo's partner, but that is pretty much all, he will just come again, Recover, Amnesia, good game (unless your Mewtwo is still alive to mirror him's Mewtwo, Mew can also stop an ill Mewtwo, sometimes).
Yeah, tbh I see no concievable way of Mewtwo being not broken in any RBY meta. We are talking about the most Powerful Pokemon in most gens (Relative, I know, but he's up there), in a Gen that he was best in. The only way he could even be considered for OU is if they banned Amnesia on him, but those kind of bans are finnicky, and even then he would still be a complete powerhouse
Mewtwo's still broken without Amnesia. Losing Amnesia degrades it to "merely" a better-than-Zam special duelist with better-than-Starmie coverage and better-than-all-of-OU physical durability (Recover). Amnesia Mewtwo only really tacks on "better-than-Slowbro sweeper threat" to that list.
Yeah, without Amnesia, Mewtwo is still unbeatable. With Amnesia, it's unstoppable as well.
Maybe, and just maybe he may not be broken if you don't... (this is just for fun!)...
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam
Even there, I still doubt about it, he's just supreme when we talk about taking special hits and can still use Barrier for the physical ones, that Critical Hit rate and speed are still godlike, and even with merely Confusion and Hyper Beam he still hits pretty hard (and more when you factor him's Critical Hit rate). Mewtwo's Confusion hits as hard as Slowbro's Psychic. Counter, Submission and Bubblebeam are also over there for beating one at one most of the physical guys on OU.
That player was bad.
The very fact that it has to switch out is what shows it's not broken with wrap,
I don't see how something can be broken if there are numerous pokemon who force it out after its paralysed. If it wants to stay in against these pokemon, then it needs to avoid paralysis, meaning it then needs to run away from a lot of other pokemon.
Either way, M2 will have to switch out on a fair few pokemon.
As for saying 'well it can just switch in and recover/amnesia' um, maybe just don't play bad? With good prediction and general play, you can always make M2 pay a penalty for coming in. Seems like people are setting a double-standard here because of its reputation. It seems as if because of its rep as an Uber, if you can't beat it mindlessly then people will just always consider it broken. M2 with wrap is a challenge, but is definitely beatable with good play.
If you paralyse it, it can't switch in 'safely' on wrappers. If it's not paralysed and comes in on wrap, you can just wrap-switch to paralysis.The point is, forcing out M2 often and making it scared of paralysis nullifies its threat significantly.
For someone who has stated Wrap isn't broken you sure make it sound incredibly broken when it comes to discussing how easy Mewtwo is to face with it, the pokemon with easily the best combination of bulk, coverage and power to survive hits and punish misses.
It's not broken because it can still be beaten with good play, which is exactly the argument I'm making about M2 with wrap in play.
Wrap is beaten by good play, so it's not broken. M2 can't just afford to take para and sit there mindlessly all day with wrap legal, therefore M2 isn't broken either.
If Mewtwo can't be beaten with "good play," just a single gimmick (Wrap) which doesn't even actually work that well, you're not making the same argument at all.
That's just how trappers work, though. You can't be slower than them, unless you're banking on a miss, or you'll get chipped down for free. Mewtwo isn't immune to that behavior if it happens to be slower (paralyzed) but that doesn't make it suddenly NOT overall ridiculous. Mewtwo is more resilient against the gimmick than everything else, it still beats the pants off everything in all other scenarios. And trappers still can't switch into Mewtwo, only dissuade Mewtwo from switching into them, because it will OHKO them all. Hope you're running a full team of 'em, since otherwise Mewtwo will just switch into anything else.
Besides, nobody needs safeguarded from PAR more than trappers themselves. Mewtwo, plus Mew and the better half of OU, win the speed war if everyone is paralyzed... not that it matters, since periodically losing a turn screws with trap moves anyway (sorry Dragonite).
I said he can be beaten by good play, not can't.
To be honest, I care little for this theory that wrap doesn't beat M2 because I've already beaten M2 with it with a team I just threw together, having played like 3 Ubers matches before that.
If I can win battles with a rough draft team against opposition teams that I don't know very well, then it's reasonable to believe that wrap nullifies his threat. I know for a fact that it can work in practice.
If you're letting M2 come in for free a lot, then you're playing badly. Wrap or not, every mon on your team should be able to punish an M2 switch in, unless you have a really safe switch in or back your prediction (less ideal, as prediction is a lottery at high level play).
You seem to be forgetting that whatever strategy 2 opts for, it has to run away from half a team in order to preserve that strategy. That's far from broken. Also remember that once he's paralysed, he can be subjected to switch ins from exploders or general hard hitters.
And it's not impossible to get a wrapper in on 2. When you use a wrap team extensively, you learn how to get them in on things that have threatening moves to them. That's just part of good play. At some point, 2 will have to use a non-attacking move. You can create openings for your wrappers, I've done it multiple times.
You can say that one mistake will cost you, but that's often the case in high level play anyway. That's also why a good team has numerous back-up plans. You might pack additional wrappers, go for a boom etc. a good team will have multiple plans for offence and defence, you just use the most probable ones first.
In a 2v1 match, Electrode + Flareon can beat Mewtwo 85% of the time.
1. Electrode uses Screech
2. Mewtwo uses Amnesia/Psychic
3. Electrode uses Explosion
4. Flareon uses Quick Attack
I say 85% because Screech has an 85% success rate.
I'm guessing only a critical hit Hyper Beam at the start can save Mewtwo here?
An interesting thing, though you also have to factor in trying to even get an opportunity to switch in Electrode to even start that. Mewtwo(like any late game Sweeper) will be trying to avoid paralysis, so it staying in to risk a Thunder Wave from the only Pokemon that outspeeds it is very unlikely. As for Flareon trying to keep it alive in Ubers would be a nightmare due to SlowBro and Chansey being everywhere, Mews with earthquake and the occasional Starmies and Golems.
I would describe your scenario to a later gen example: Light Ball Pikachu with Grass Knot can OHKO a Groudon, but the chances of getting a setup to do so is so massively uncommon no one really thinks about it.
I have no idea why this thread was revived after a 2 year hiatus to suggest the most implausible and frankly ridiculous situation I've thus far heard seriously suggested on these forums, but RBY Mewtwo is actually really interesting to talk about.
RBY Ubers is still, somehow, a bit "unexplored" if only because the old-gen playerbase is small and then the non-OU subset is even smaller after that. I've now played both Mewbers and regular Ubers a bit, the former is actually a traditionally "great" metagame, Mew is broken obviously but not super outrageous (at least in comparison to Mewtwo) while the latter is unlike any metagame I've played before.
I've often recommended learning RBY OU to players who have a difficult time with RNG and like to complain about it often. A big part of Gen I games is probability management, and because the situations you see in a typical RBY match have happened so often (Tauros vs Eggy in Bslam+Beam range, with Tauros player having full health para Zam in the back, etc.) a good RBY match is often just execution of those scenarios + who is more aggressive on particular turns + whatever leftover RNG there is. It's pokemon playing at the most fundamental level, there's little in the way to obfuscate the direct game.
On the other hand, RBY Ubers is all of that + a HUGE lesson in momentum management. As a player who prefers HO and general offense in later gens strongly, managing momentum is a super important concept. Without a sturdy defensive core to fall back on you simply can't do certain things - if my Florges is setup fodder for DD Feraligatr, and I get 6-0d by +1 Gatr, I can't kill the Mence right in front of me, for example. Learning to see the game a few turns out and play accordingly to avoid giving winning scenarios to your opponent is a huge thing, and a right of passage for many players looking to go to the next level.
RBY Ubers doesn't fuck around with this. I've had games where I swear I "outplay" (in the RBY sense, more aggressive, better standard execution) for 3/4ths of the game only to lose to a Mewtwo given a free turn. One single turn is enough for this monster to change the entire game. Traditional strategies simply don't work against it should it be played even remotely well. LS Chansey is the most half ass of half assed checks I've ever seen, crits and Spec drops mean its impossible to catch a breather, because you're taking a +2 Psychic right off the bat. It's not so simple to spam Ice Beams afterward hoping for the best.
Here's one example where I think I play generally "better" than my opponent, but end up swept entirely by a Mewtwo given a free turn to Amnesia: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ubers-179295 (I could have killed with Tauros or Mew Hyper Beams, but it becomes a 50/50 at that point, if he recovers I just lose the mon, so I hedged my bets and went for paralysis) So in a sense, though I can cry about making better plays for a majority of the game, I really played worse overall - I know what's in the back waiting for me and I willingly gave it breathing space for no gain.
That's just one example, too. Rewatch some replays and see the effect this beast has, there's legitimate scenarios where 50, 60 turns of "outplay" or "better play" get thrown away due to one turn of Mewtwo. It's funny in a way, and certainly of course this could never be an official metagame of any type, but playing this tier is definitely the best example I've ever seen of learning to keep momentum on your side of the field. You simply can't screw up against Mewtwo.
Hmm interesting how M2 is being conceptualised here. Contrary to what Fawful said, I value its defensive utility as much as its offensive potency, and often seek to get my M2 paralysed to protect it from status and gain an edge in a PP stall war. On that note I don't see it as being a huge deal in terms of momentum, as a lot of the time M2 just forces stall wars due to it being a really effective counter to itself and everything else being relatively mediocre. Admittedly the situation changes if I have an obvious advantage in such a stall war, but often the alternatives are few because of M2's sheer power. I guess I've just been approaching the meta differently to some people, although I am looking to diversify my style a bit, because taking a defensive route is very restrictive and I want to test different mons in ubers.
Also Barrier is an awesome move.