By request: Discuss Mewtwo here.

[magic9mushroom]

We get it, Wrap can mitigate a paralyzed Mewtwo's strength because it can't move after being Wrapped, but it's vulnerable to unlucky misses. That's true for pretty much anything. Let's steer the conversation back to Mewtwo and not continue to derail the thread that only exists because of a derail in another thread.

Oh, and because just saying "hey gais dont derail pls" isn't very constructive, let me pose the following question about Mewtwo: does Selfdestruct have a place on a Mewtwo set for allowing you to trade with your opponent's Mewtwo or Mew before they can have a chance to set up and sweep? Or is Mewtwo literally so broken that sacrificing it for a kill is just stupid?

The problem is that Mewtwo's Selfdestruct is not powerful enough to kill anything that it couldn't kill another way. Both Ubers are so bulky that they can take it and come out grinning (hence why they're Uber), Chansey is better dealt with via Submission, and everything else dies horribly to one of {STAB Psychic, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt} from 812 Special after an Amnesia on the switch.

Mew's Explosion is good because it OHKOs Mewtwo at +2, whereas Mewtwo will normally outpace Mew for the kill thanks to its higher speed and better base attacking stat. Mewtwo's Selfdestruct doesn't really give much of an advantage in any situation, and it comes with an obviously huge price tag attached.

A bit off topic but does anyone have any logs of them successfully combating a wrap team? I have had issues with them in the past and have only ever seen how to combat it in passing discussion. If you have any logs of actually performing in that method, that would be great.

I have a few. PM me your email address, I'm not posting a raw log in-thread.

 

[Dre89]

Jorgen- Wrap is relevant to this discussion. The original context in which this thread got moved here is because I was saying that Mewtwo is manageable with wrap.

I don't see why you would use Selfdestruct to trade Mewtwos when you could just play Freeze Wars and, on average, still trade Mewtwos (you win half the time, lose half the time) while also beating every Mewtwo that won't engage in Freeze Wars with you. It also only averages 56% damage, so you have to chip them low enough that you're in danger of losing a speed tie and getting screwed when they Recover first. Save Explosion for Mew if you wanna pull stuff like that.


I've been playing this game for 15 years Drenumbers, I think I know what I'm talking about. Wrap is usable enough, the free chip damage and switch turns are cool. However, it's no free pass to destroying entire teams. First off, the abuse potential is greatly mitigated by the fact virtually everything can cause PAR. Secondly, Wrap is so weak and inaccurate that it rarely causes significant damage before missing (and getting your ass killed).

The average damage caused by Wrap, assuming you just sit there and take it like a bitch waiting for a miss so you can PAR/kill the user, is roughly equivalent to a 180-power attack. (On average: 45 damage per one use, a little over four uses before missing.) High? Sure. It also has no secondary effects and isn't learned by anything particularly threatening for any other reason. I mean, I admit Wrap Tauros would destroy the game... Dragonite is non-existent in OU play without it. Wrap barely makes Drag usable. Clamp is pretty fucking broken, luckily Cloyster not only lacks Agility for real abuse but it can't even paralyze shit on its own.

And of course to relate it to the actual topic here, Mewtwo is an above average tanker of Wrap spam (it has roughly Snorlax's physical bulk) and is OHKOing your ass the second you miss.

I know first-hand that wrap isn't OP. I constantly have to explain this to people who have never played it before that have a go at me for using it. 2K10 is mostly responsible for purporting this idea that it's broken or nooby in recent times, because most newcomers on PO that are hostile towards me for using wrap or assume it's OP say that they were introduced into competitive RBY through 2K10.

There are more dynamics to wrapping Mewtwo other than just how many wraps it takes to go down or quickly it KOs stuff when they miss. Honestly, I probably wouldn't try to outright wrap-KO it unless it was my last resort. For example, you have free switches to exploders who even if they don't KO Mewtwo, put it in revenge range. A paralysed unboosted mewtwo won't like switching into too many things (as it'll have to switch out if you threaten an explosion).

This of course is assuming M2 is willing to take paralysis. I'd be interested to see how many people who say M2 is still broken with wrap would be willing to let their M2 get parad.

 

[Captain Evil]

Why not organize a tournament in RBY Ubers and see how effective Wrap really is against Mewtwo (assuming wrappers are used on at least a few teams)?

 

[magic9mushroom]

Why not organize a tournament in RBY Ubers and see how effective Wrap really is against Mewtwo (assuming wrappers are used on at least a few teams)?

Mmm, might be an idea.

(It'd probably also have more RBY Ubers than has been played in the last few months, lol.)

 

[Dre89]

Why not organize a tournament in RBY Ubers and see how effective Wrap really is against Mewtwo (assuming wrappers are used on at least a few teams)?

I'm not sure one tourney would be enough though. You can't really establish a meta in that time. Using wrap has a steeper learning curve than a lot of non-wrappers seem to think too.

 

[shrapn3l]

Jorgen- Wrap is relevant to this discussion. The original context in which this thread got moved here is because I was saying that Mewtwo is manageable with wrap.



I know first-hand that wrap isn't OP. I constantly have to explain this to people who have never played it before that have a go at me for using it. 2K10 is mostly responsible for purporting this idea that it's broken or nooby in recent times, because most newcomers on PO that are hostile towards me for using wrap or assume it's OP say that they were introduced into competitive RBY through 2K10.


this is so very ironic, but more on that later. how did you pick up rby? when did you stop thinking wrap was busted? jog my memory

There are more dynamics to wrapping Mewtwo other than just how many wraps it takes to go down or quickly it KOs stuff when they miss. Honestly, I probably wouldn't try to outright wrap-KO it unless it was my last resort. For example, you have free switches to exploders who even if they don't KO Mewtwo, put it in revenge range. A paralysed unboosted mewtwo won't like switching into too many things (as it'll have to switch out if you threaten an explosion).

so you're saying sacrificing at least one pokemon with explosion to kill mewtwo is more reliable and is preferable to straight up trying to paralyze and wrap it (i can't imagine that you'd get any reasonable player's mewtwo paralyzed, and get a wrapper switched in on it cleanly without losing a pokemon anyway. either you're sacking something to get the wrapper in or you're sacking whatever you tried to paralyze it with, or you're pp stalling it or taking a chance with beating it with slowbro or something. or blowing something up as you mentioned). this truly is not helping your point that mewtwo is not an uber because it can be managed with wrap, if that is what you're trying to prove.

This of course is assuming M2 is willing to take paralysis. I'd be interested to see how many people who say M2 is still broken with wrap would be willing to let their M2 get parad.

what on earth does this prove? because nobody wants to willingly hinder their mewtwo, that means it's not broken?

how about this: i'd be interested to see how many people who say M2 is not broken with wrap around (population: dre89) would be willing to let their wrappers get paralyzed, or let mewtwo set up 2 amnesias for free before trying to paralyze it, or why not just let mewtwo win while you're at it?

You can't really establish a meta in that time. Using wrap has a steeper learning curve than a lot of non-wrappers seem to think too.

you are being so obnoxious it is killing me. i remember quite distinctly that not even a year ago i was trying to convince you that wrap was not comparable to OHKO moves (i.e. completely luckbased, completely overpowered, whatever). so where the heck did you get the idea that you are the only person on earth that has insight as to how wrap works, how it is going to redefine the tiers? it hasn't been banned here for practically as long as i can remember, but it's taken what, 8 years for dre89 the wrap messiah to come along and tell everyone how good it actually is after using it for like 6 months? the funny thing is, you are essentially making the same argument now as you were before when you thought wrap was broken, except it's even more dumb. instead of arguing that wrap moves are too good to be allowed in OU, you're arguing they're not TOO good but they're better than mewtwo which clearly deserves to stay banned. what you're suggesting about wrap being enough to slow down mewtwo is not only incorrect, but even if it is correct, so what? everyone is going to use mewtwo and/or wrap and things like slowbro/chansey just to paralyze mewtwo? and what about mew? is mew better than mewtwo in the wrap metagame or is mew "manageable" too just because it is possible to paralyze it? honestly, if that's all anyone's using that sounds eerily like what the uber metagame is anyway. so i don't see what's being proved (or what the point of this thread actually is at all, frankly...).

 

[magic9mushroom]

Dre, if you think Mewtwo shouldn't be Uber, then that implies you think Alakazam shouldn't be OU, as Mewtwo is Alakazam + coverage + Amnesia + ~twice the physical bulk - in other words, Alakazam, without any of the downsides of using Alakazam. But I've seen you use Alakazam in OU. What gives?

 

[Jorgen]

Dre, if you think Mewtwo shouldn't be Uber, then that implies you think Alakazam shouldn't be OU, as Mewtwo is Alakazam + coverage + Amnesia + ~twice the physical bulk - in other words, Alakazam, without any of the downsides of using Alakazam. But I've seen you use Alakazam in OU. What gives?

To be fair, he never said that he thought Mewtwo shouldn't be Uber. That was you putting words in his mouth. EDIT: Huh, I stand corrected. I guess I should have looked at the thread a bit closer, but on the other hand, who really cares, I guess.

That being said, can we seriously not just talk about Wrap? Wrap is neither the only nor most reliable way to deal with Mewtwo, it's just a high-risk attempt to gain counterplay against non-Barrier variants (which, granted, is most). Normally, you're seeing Light Screen Chanseys/Slowbros/Other Mewtwos attempting to freeze/stall it, or Jynx/Egg(/Hypno?) trying to Sleep it, or Lax/Egg trying to go boom on it, or even Mew trying to set up on it and break it on the Physical side.

As for the Mew thing, Mew's EQ + Hyper Beam averages (note: NOT A GUARANTEE) a 2HKO at +2. So an already-paralyzed Mewtwo can be a liability not only against Wrap, but also against the far more reliable Mew. However, it's important to note that +2 Ice Beam averages (again, not a guarantee) a 2HKO in return against Mew, although by spamming Softboiled until you get an FP, you can go for the KO.

 

[Dre89]

Jorgen- If we're not talking about wrap then there's no reason to talk about M2. Wrap was the context that M2 was brought up in.


Shrapnel- Are you telling me that when Ubers was being played for all these years, that they used wrap as the standard? That would be news to me. I'm not talking about the odd tournament here and there, I'm talking about wrap being the standard, and all the top players playing using it.

And again, you're simplifying the argument. The argument was that if it is willing to get paralysed, then it becomes more manageable. You then get the ability to force it out with explosion or whatnot, meaning it loses all its boosts, nullifying its threat,

If the M2 doesn't want to get paralysed, then it has to run away from a lot of pokemon, also nullifying its threat.


That's the point. It has to decide whether it wants to contest everything and accept para, or avoid para but have to run a lot of the time. This is what separates it from non-wrap, where M2 could just sit there and take para and contest everything.

The fact that you're saying that a good player won't let it take para just proves my point. It's just acknowledging how much of a threat wrap is. Otherwise, you'd be happy to take para for a freeze war.

Yes M2 is still the biggest threat in the game by a long-shot, but the point is with wrap it becomes a lot more manageable with calculation and prediction.

 

[magic9mushroom]

To be fair, he never said that he thought Mewtwo shouldn't be Uber. That was you putting words in his mouth.

Yes, he did.

The original point was that lax is comparable to RBY Mewtwo.

My point is that they are comparable, but Mewtwo doesn't need to be banned with wrap legal, therefore lax shouldn't be either.

Wrap is legal, therefore he thinks that Mewtwo doesn't need to be banned (ie, Uber).

 

[Dre89]

Yeah I don't think he should be banned because I don't think he's anti-competitive, especially with wrap. I try to leave subjective interpretations of things like 'fun' out of my opinions on bans. The way I look at it, if the game is still competitive, as in has a decent skill ceiling and requires more skill than luck then the game shouldn't be changed. I feel M2 doesn't fulfill those conditions with wrap, so he should be legal.

 

[chaos]

MrE summed up what I would have said about Mewtwo.

 

[Borat]

ITT: how to lose credibility.

 

[Dre89]

Saying that I'm losing credibility without explaining why is pointless.

The tradition argument doesn't work here because M2 was banned when wrap was not the standard meta, or at least the move wasn't used due to shoddy mechanics. That's why everyone talk about Ubers being freeze wars. Freeze wars only happen in metas where wrap isn't being used.

Now that wrap is being used again, I'm presenting the question of how a pokemon can be OP when it can be completely incapacitated until it is KOd, or has to run away from like half the meta to avoid said incapacitation.

The fact that people are saying a good player won't let M2 take paralysis just proves my point. It proves that wrap is a threat, and that M2 will have to run away most of the time, unlike non-wrap where it can just sit there and contest everything because it doesn't care about paralysis.

 

[Crystal_]

The argument was that if it is willing to get paralysed, then it becomes more manageable. You then get the ability to force it out with explosion

unlike non-wrap where it can just sit there and contest everything because it doesn't care about paralysis.

As far as I know, Explosions are part of "non-Wrap"

So how does Wrap remove the threat of Explosion? So your point is that wrap gives you the free switch to the exploder? Okay but, how the hell do you get the wrapper in into (a boosted) Mewtwo? Sacrificing a Pokemon everytime? Not the best risk vs reward I guess, especially considering that Mewtwo can just run away from wrappers/exploders when it feels like and set up until you have blown up all Pokemon.

Man, you are just contradicting yourself...

 

[Mr.E]

I'd let my Mewtwo take paralysis, if only because it's pretty much unavoidable since everything can PAR. Amnesia makes constant switching in and out less desirable and PAR > FRZ when it comes to Mewtwo vs Mewtwo. If Wrap is something to worry about, you just keep something else fast unparalyzed. Oh no you did 10 damage to my Mewtwo (if you don't miss and die) and I have to switch to Starmie now. Big fucking deal. Then again, I also willingly paralyze Chansey so what do I know.

Now that wrap is being used again, I'm presenting the question of how a pokemon can be OP when it can be completely incapacitated until it is KOd, or has to run away from like half the meta to avoid said incapacitation.

...the fact of the matter is that Agility/PAR + Wrap beats everything with some luck. At best, that says to me Wrap is broken and should be banned anyway... and then there's nothing else holding Mewtwo back so it should still remain banned. ;[

I mean shit, if Wrap beats even Mewtwo so easily how isn't it broken?

 

[Golden Gyarados]

I mean shit, if Wrap beats even Mewtwo so easily how isn't it broken?

This is the weird thing I don't understand about Dre's arguments. Mewtwo is THE Uber. The original and arguably the most relatively deadly (comparing Mewtwo in Gen 1 versus subsequent ubers in their respective Gens). I'm not saying myself that wrap is awful (although my opinion as such is well known), but if one proposes that wrap makes Mewtwo (again, the Pokemon that everyone in the world agrees is overpowered) easily manageable, then how can one, in one's right mind, come to the conclusion that it's Mewtwo who isn't that bad, and not that it's wrap that is overpowered? The cognitive dissonance going on there has got to be staggering.

 

[shrapn3l]

but if one proposes that wrap makes Mewtwo (again, the Pokemon that everyone in the world agrees is overpowered) easily manageable, then how can one, in one's right mind, come to the conclusion that it's Mewtwo who isn't that bad, and not that it's wrap that is overpowered? The cognitive dissonance going on there has got to be staggering.

I mean shit, if Wrap beats even Mewtwo so easily how isn't it broken?

As far as I know, Explosions are part of "non-Wrap"

So how does Wrap remove the threat of Explosion? So your point is that wrap gives you the free switch to the exploder? Okay but, how the hell do you get the wrapper in into (a boosted) Mewtwo? Sacrificing a Pokemon everytime? Not the best risk vs reward I guess, especially considering that Mewtwo can just run away from wrappers/exploders when it feels like and set up until you have blown up all Pokemon.

Man, you are just contradicting yourself...

this is all precisely what i was trying to point out, and what he hasn't really refuted at all.

he still thinks wrap is as good as he always did. the way he describes it, if what he were saying about how wrap works were true and coherent, it would seem to be the case that wrap is broken. this boy still retains some kinda crazy overestimation of how good wrap is and how it consistently behaves in a battle against any player that he's had since before he decided it was not broken. all that he's revised since then is what his definition of broken is, and i'm afraid he's made an extremely strange and bad revision of that definition.

not only does wrap not work in the mystical, nigh-unbeatable manner he is describing, but even if it did, you'd have to be making some sacrifices (as crystal has reiterated) and/or be playing against a moron to completely make mewtwo a non-factor in the game using just wrap. and if you are sacrificing anything, as it seems you will often if not always have to, whether you are straight sacking pokemon or exploding them, it's not really being turned into non-factor anyway, because you're still trading 1 for 1 AT BEST. so mewtwo will always be something of a dangerous factor, and you'll almost always have to sacrifice something to hinder it/beat it with wrap unless your opponent is really bad. if that's the best you can do against mewtwo, it's still broken regardless of whether or not wrap is around!

 

[Dre89]

He's only 'the' Uber because he has always played in a metagame that was tailored to make him OP.

Saying that if wrap beats M2 then it's OP is like making a metagame for zapdos banning all pokemon except water and flying types. Then saying that all the other types are OP because they nullify a pokemon who was originally OP.

Wrap isn't OP because it's a competitive mechanic, probably more competitive than non-wrap. It takes skill to use and is not an auto-win even if you don't miss a single wrap. Aginite isn't an autp-win either, whoever said that has no idea about the wrap meta.

And honestly you guys are setting a massive double standard with talking about how to get a wrapper in etc. You use skill to beat M2. You can use something like Mew or M2 to set up the switch, you can switch when he boosts, or you can just make it difficult from him to switch in to begin with.

You guys are setting a double standard now because you're basically saying that if there isn't a mindless hard counter to him he's OP. It's not as if you have to explode on every time. You just have to threaten him with it to force it out. This is where mindgames and prediction come into play. These are basic RBY concepts.

 

[Joim]

He is 'the' Uber because a single Amnesia makes it take little damage from any kind of attack and steamroll through teams. It's 'the' Uber because it has far superior stats: faster, stronger, bulkier. It's 'the' Uber because it survives Explosion. It's 'the' Uber because its STAB attack comes out from a sky high Special, has a 30% chance to drop Special and hits like a fucking truck. It's 'the' Uber because it has close to 25% chance to crit. It can even run Recover.

Come on, everything is worse if you paralyse it. You could waste all your PP on Wrap and you would still have to Explode on it. That player deserves to lose.

 

[magic9mushroom]

It's 'the' Uber because it has close to 25% chance to crit.

25.4%, actually.

 

[Dre89]

He is 'the' Uber because a single Amnesia makes it take little damage from any kind of attack and steamroll through teams. It's 'the' Uber because it has far superior stats: faster, stronger, bulkier. It's 'the' Uber because it survives Explosion. It's 'the' Uber because its STAB attack comes out from a sky high Special, has a 30% chance to drop Special and hits like a fucking truck. It's 'the' Uber because it has close to 25% chance to crit. It can even run Recover.

Come on, everything is worse if you paralyse it. You could waste all your PP on Wrap and you would still have to Explode on it. That player deserves to lose.

See now I'm hearing two different things from you guys. Some of you are saying that you'd avoid para, others are saying you'd take it. The fact that there's division there shows it isn't mindlessly easy to counter.

I also don't see how something can be OP if it can't attack. You're also assuming one wrapper. Multiple wrappers can bring it into KO range of explosion or something else.

Let's not forget this also gives you a free switch to your own Mew or M2 who outspeed theirs. Mew can be particularly threatening because of swords dance and explosion.

I just don't see how it's OP when it can be immobilised whilst still taking damage, and has to run away from exploders. M2 can beat wrappers plus exploders/hard hitters, but it's not as if it's a really easy match up for him, it's not a rhydon vs zapdos kind of thing.

 

[Joim]

Dre, that depends on every player's strategy (para thing). Mewtwo is far better than any other Pokémon and thus Uber, not indestructible and unvincible. You suggest that a Pokémon must be unbeatable to Uber, so you're inherently wrong since you choose to ignore the definition of "Uber" for Smogon. There's gen 5 OU Pokémon that can counter Uber Pokémon such as Kyogre... but they are still Uber.

 

[Golden Gyarados]

25.4%, actually.

25.4 is pretty close to 25

ETA: This is a joke, you guys o_O

 

[AraShaun]

[/I]



25.4 is pretty close to 25

I think he meant that it is in fact over 25%