Bye bye Latias! Bring in the apes...

Breloom with Spore, Sub, Focus Punch, Leech seed and max speed is deadly. Sure it deals with one poke at a time max, but it forces switches, breaks peoples assumptions(it's fairly fast), and guarantees a few pokes out per game. It only lacks ways to kill Celebi, which has plenty of counters. I've succesfully subseeded a mence with the thing.(Leech seeded on the switch after managing to keep a sub because the first switch in was slower than me.)
 
I've succesfully subseeded a mence with the thing.(Leech seeded on the switch after managing to keep a sub because the first switch in was slower than me.)
This.

In a metagame riddled with fast sweepers, subseed Breloom cannot perform as well as spore punch. I'd rather 2HKO Mence than subseed it personally (if you are effectively subseeding it, that means you can get the 2hko without it touching you). The Sporepunch ones do better against stall too. I'm not sure why someone would want subseed over sporepunch. What merits does it have??? In a metagame that will no doubt have a rising amount of grass types, more things using substitute than ever, and with a more fastpaced meta to come (imo), subseed Breloom has no place.

Edit: Summary - SubSeed Breloom has more potential to be deadweight than SporePunch. If you can't successfully start the cycle (16PP is really not good enough for this to be effective on something like breloom.) then you are not doing much other than annoying the opponent a bit.
 
@subseeders - SporePunch is so much better :/ Brelooms speed lets it down when it comes to subseeding, I made an awesome ev spread for one once and then was so underwhelmed with Brelooms subseeding abilities it was horrible. if sub had something like 40pp it would be alot more impressive. I know I was playing it fine, it was just forced out way too much and could only muster 2 kills max if they have something with recovery that resists focus punch (plenty). substitute soon ran out of pp effectively making the breloom nigh useless. SporePunch on the other hand...its brutal, just brutal.
SporePunch and SubSeed are both wicked strategies on Breloom; it's just that either way, you have to think a little differently than the norm. SubSeeding works well because Poison Heal plus Leech Seed healing is enough to keep the Subs coming for a long time, akin to Stallrein using Protect, Leftovers, and Ice Body; most SubSeeders don't get the massive HP returns that Breloom does. If you can Seed something on the switch, you can more or less pump out Subs for as long as the PP lasts, with Spore giving you a way to force a switch or otherwise create another Leech Seed opportunity if you need it. Also, you have Focus Punch, which is a beast even without EV investment.

And, as noted before, it causes a lot of switches, especially those rushing in to deal with the more standard SporePuncher. Throw some entry hazards up and watch everything die to SR/Toxic Spikes.
 
People should honestly start using Careful on STalker Gyarados on stall now with Ape usage. It takes NP Grass Knots alot better than the Impish one and it still beats Lucario etc. :/
 
This.

In a metagame riddled with fast sweepers, subseed Breloom cannot perform as well as spore punch. I'd rather 2HKO Mence than subseed it personally (if you are effectively subseeding it, that means you can get the 2hko without it touching you). The Sporepunch ones do better against stall too. I'm not sure why someone would want subseed over sporepunch. What merits does it have??? In a metagame that will no doubt have a rising amount of grass types, more things using substitute than ever, and with a more fastpaced meta to come (imo), subseed Breloom has no place.

Edit: Summary - SubSeed Breloom has more potential to be deadweight than SporePunch. If you can't successfully start the cycle (16PP is really not good enough for this to be effective on something like breloom.) then you are not doing much other than annoying the opponent a bit.
Mine does both. The goal of Subseed Breloom is to make the opponent switch because of the seed/sub combo giving me a free Sub to Punch them in the face. Then I switch out of their near crippled poke, spore something, or sub on their setup and keep going. The whole thing just messes with everyone.
 
I don't think that getting "only" two kills with breloom is anything to complain about. Let's look at it from the most basic view point possible. It is one pokemon out of six. It gets one to two kills per game out of six. It's powerful, almost bordering on broken. Stop complaining about the speed, or lack thereof, because if it had anymore, it would be banned. Case closed.
 
SporePunch and SubSeed are both wicked strategies on Breloom; it's just that either way, you have to think a little differently than the norm. SubSeeding works well because Poison Heal plus Leech Seed healing is enough to keep the Subs coming for a long time, akin to Stallrein using Protect, Leftovers, and Ice Body; most SubSeeders don't get the massive HP returns that Breloom does. If you can Seed something on the switch, you can more or less pump out Subs for as long as the PP lasts, with Spore giving you a way to force a switch or otherwise create another Leech Seed opportunity if you need it. Also, you have Focus Punch, which is a beast even without EV investment.
Yeah, it's surprising how long that PP lasts. Remember that you don't have to put up a new sub every turn if your opponent is asleep.
And, as noted before, it causes a lot of switches, especially those rushing in to deal with the more standard SporePuncher. Throw some entry hazards up and watch everything die to SR/Toxic Spikes.
Um... Breloom should never be on the same team as Toxic Spikes. Because then Spore doesn't work on anything grounded. :P
 
I don't think that getting "only" two kills with breloom is anything to complain about. Let's look at it from the most basic view point possible. It is one pokemon out of six. It gets one to two kills per game out of six. It's powerful, almost bordering on broken. Stop complaining about the speed, or lack thereof, because if it had anymore, it would be banned. Case closed.
The whole point of Breloom's mention is being forgotten. Mence is mainly going to Uber b/c people keep complaining it takes more than the standard Cookie Cutter OU team to take down (Weavile, Mamoswine, Empoleon, it's like nobody knows they are OU. Empoleon is rare and Mamo/Weavile are never used outside of Hail despite how great they are) and that it requires a sacrifice to revenge kill it. Breloom fits this criteria. If your Breloom counter isn't out the second Breloom is, you are guaranteed to lose that or lose what's switching in. Sub stops it from being revenge killed, letting Breloom Spore that. STAB Focus Punch off 130 Base Attack also isn't easy to shrug off. Sure, flying types take both STAB, but what about SE? Sure, Honchcrow can take Spore, but will it survive a Focus Punch or anything else in OU? Sure, it's easy to out speed, but what if it switches in to T-Tar, Scizor, Swampert, all while it has 252 Speed and Jolly (have been seeing these a lot lately)? Breloom is also guaranteed a KO under normal circumstances, but he isn't going anywhere.
 
Yeah, it's surprising how long that PP lasts. Remember that you don't have to put up a new sub every turn if your opponent is asleep.
Exactly, that's what the other moves are for, and why it causes so many switches...which, of course, brings me to how stupid I am.

Um... Breloom should never be on the same team as Toxic Spikes. Because then Spore doesn't work on anything grounded. :P
Yeah, I know, for some reason I was just like, "Switches? Durr hurr, let's throw down every entry hazard evar, durr!" Momentary lapse of thought on my part, and thanks for pointing it out. =P
 
Can comebody clearly explain to me what it is that makes Latias Uber?
Yeah...like Pratty said it overcentralized the metagame.A lot of people carried Scarftar to deal with it,but that wasn't even safe sometimes seeing as SpecsLati Dracometeor 2HKOs it AND Scizor.I believe it was one of the reasons the Dragon+Steel combo showed up(I might be wrong about this).
 

SJCrew

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It did cause massive centralization, but centralization isn't an argument for banning a poke
It actually is, but only when backed by an even stronger argument explaining what causes the overcentralization, how influential it is, and how it hurts the metagame.

You should really only see overcentralization as a smaller part of a big picture. Latias got banned not only because it forced you to run one of three very specific Pokemon on your team in order to prevent being run over by it, but because those three Pokemon were not even guaranteed to beat it and if they failed to do so, Latias could continue destroying your team.
 
I find it amusing that Latios (which was initially tested alongside Latias) got ousted to ubers immediately due to its Specs set yet it took several tests to come to the same conclusion for Latias. I remember a number of people saying how the 20 pt difference in Spec Att kept Latias from being too good for OU
 
The whole point of Breloom's mention is being forgotten. Mence is mainly going to Uber b/c people keep complaining it takes more than the standard Cookie Cutter OU team to take down (Weavile, Mamoswine, Empoleon, it's like nobody knows they are OU. Empoleon is rare and Mamo/Weavile are never used outside of Hail despite how great they are) and that it requires a sacrifice to revenge kill it. Breloom fits this criteria. If your Breloom counter isn't out the second Breloom is, you are guaranteed to lose that or lose what's switching in. Sub stops it from being revenge killed, letting Breloom Spore that. STAB Focus Punch off 130 Base Attack also isn't easy to shrug off. Sure, flying types take both STAB, but what about SE? Sure, Honchcrow can take Spore, but will it survive a Focus Punch or anything else in OU? Sure, it's easy to out speed, but what if it switches in to T-Tar, Scizor, Swampert, all while it has 252 Speed and Jolly (have been seeing these a lot lately)? Breloom is also guaranteed a KO under normal circumstances, but he isn't going anywhere.
The difference, as I'm sure many people have said before, is that Breloom is nowhere near as versatile as Mence is. When you see a Breloom, you know it's totally physical, and almost all sets carry Spore, Seed Bomb, and a fighting STAB. When you see Mence, you have no idea what it's running. You might switch to something anticipating a DD but instead get blasted by Draco Meteor, or anticipate a Draco Meteor but instead get set up on with DD. The extreme versatility and raw power of the mixed and DD sets distinguishes mence from other pokemon.

Weavile - ScarfTar is better than this nearly all the time, running this just to be able to Ice Shard something that you hope doesn't switch out seems too troublesome.

Mamoswine - Isn't worth a spot just to counter Mence, it's just way too slow and its defenses won't let it survive much either.

Empoleon - how is this a Mence counter at all? Dies to EQ.

STAB Focus Punch off 130 Base Attack also isn't easy to shrug off.
Gengar and Rotom can both enjoy switching into Focus Punches and won't take much from Seed Bomb either.

And finally, Breloom is too slow and doesn't have the defenses / HP / Intimidate or the versatility to make it a threat like Mence is. There are a lot of pokemon you can't just send in Breloom against and kill, due to a low speed of either 239 or 262, not to mention that Seed Bomb and Focus Punch, and sometimes SE aren't nearly as good as Draco Meteor / Outrage / EQ / Fire Blast / DD / Roost.
 
Gengar and Rotom can both enjoy switching into Focus Punches and won't take much from Seed Bomb either.

And finally, Breloom is too slow and doesn't have the defenses / HP / Intimidate or the versatility to make it a threat like Mence is. There are a lot of pokemon you can't just send in Breloom against and kill, due to a low speed of either 239 or 262, not to mention that Seed Bomb and Focus Punch, and sometimes SE aren't nearly as good as Draco Meteor / Outrage / EQ / Fire Blast / DD / Roost.
Yes, but many are claiming Mence has to be banned b/c it can only be revenge killed. If your not ready for Breloom when it comes out, you will still lose a Pokemon, but Breloom still isn't banned. Breloom also can't be revenge killed if it still has it's Sub (which it will, b/c the Pokemon out was asleep when KOd), simply Sporing the Revenge Killer as it breaks the Sub. Something Mence can't do. Simply saying it guarantees a KO isn't near enough for banning. There are a # of Pokemon who can do that.

Weavile - ScarfTar is better than this nearly all the time, running this just to be able to Ice Shard something that you hope doesn't switch out seems too troublesome.
Mamoswine and Empoleon were mainly mentioned b/c they are examples of how a nice chunk of OU is rarely used. Even Kingdra is almost never used outside of Rain teams, which usually have more NU/UU Pokemon then OU.There are other examples, but I'm not ging to go down the list at this hour.

Besides, I don't run Ice Shard to KO Mence. Ice Punch is usually all that's needed, or even Counter (I ran Counter Weavile for a While and my jaw dropped. I even got occasional more than 2 KOs. Once netting 3). Suicune can usually handle it. Being 3HKOd, it switches in and scares it w/ Ice Beam.
 

Lockeness

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Salamence may be versatile but in my opinion mence really isn't that good. That massive stealth rock weakness and medicore defenses make it kind of hard for me to consider it uber. Scizor laughs at most salamence and unless someone gets lucky with a fire blast scizor will do more than 50% damage to most Mence. Also has no one ever heard of scarftran? Tran can switch in on just about any mixmence version especially ones that use fire blast on the switch thinking something like Scizor will show up.

Salamence also is weak to sandstorm and will almost always have life orb recoil. People can lose up to 40% of their health by coming in with Mence and attacking. Seriously Salamence is a bit of a turn off to me. Of course we all know that Mence is going to get banned anyways.
 

shrang

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You should really only see overcentralization as a smaller part of a big picture. Latias got banned not only because it forced you to run one of three very specific Pokemon on your team in order to prevent being run over by it, but because those three Pokemon were not even guaranteed to beat it and if they failed to do so, Latias could continue destroying your team.
Quoted for truth. I just really hope some of the UU voters remember this before nominating stupid shit like Dugtrio and Rain. Anyway, I didn't think Latias is broken, and the figures were horribly distorted (I mean ScarfTar beats Latias 50% of the time while Weavile/Mamoswine beats Garchomp 80% assuming no Yache?? That's like comparing an apple to an orange). Oh well, that's all in the past, but Latias is probably crying herself in her Ubers bed to sleep at the injustice that she got.
 
Yes, but many are claiming Mence has to be banned b/c it can only be revenge killed. If your not ready for Breloom when it comes out, you will still lose a Pokemon, but Breloom still isn't banned. Breloom also can't be revenge killed if it still has it's Sub (which it will, b/c the Pokemon out was asleep when KOd), simply Sporing the Revenge Killer as it breaks the Sub.
Um... lol. I'm sorry, but if you let Breloom Spore you and then don't switch out immediately you're begging to die. Why would you just sit there waiting for it to kill you? Unless Breloom was used in conjunction with a Mean Look BPer you're free to switch. If you don't leave the spored Poke in to die, Spore becomes worthless (assuming the spored poke has no Natural Cure) and any Ghost can walk all over the Subseeder and to an extent the Spore Puncher. So can any user of Taunt or Encore that can take a Punch on the switch. In order for Breloom to get a kill, the opponent has to A) be an idiot B) have the entirety of his team be either slower than Breloom or unable to knock it down to below 13% in one shot or weak to Focus Punch.

Put simply: Anything that doesn't get OHKOed by Focus Punch can walk all over Breloom, assuming you play correctly.

All you have to do is switch out the instant you get Spored. Put in something that'll live through one Focus Punch and you win.

Relatively standard Brelooms can do one of many things on the switch: a) Sub b) Focus Punch c) Seed Bomb d) Leech Seed e) Superpower f) Swords Dance g) Facade h) Stone Edge or i) Mach Punch or j) Spore.

Intelligent players will Sub and then assess the kind of threat they're facing. These Brelooms can proceed to Leech Seed you and switch to a counter to what you put it after you break the Sub. This is less than ideal, but now Breloom is devoid of Spore.

Overeager players or those who are psychological warfaring you will hit you with Focus Punch. Meaning you have to be able to survive a Focus Punch if you want a guarantee of survival. However, if they do this, Breloom gets one kill max and then it gets revenged. Also, you can switch in a Ghost. Which is why intelligent players will Sub first.

Seed Bomb can't really do much to Breloom's most common switchins.

Confused players will try to Leech Seed before they Sub, leaving them wide open to be killed by whatever you switched in.

Anything that can take a Focus Punch can take both Superpower and Mach Punch.

Swords Dancing Breloom: Lol. As long as you can take an SDed Mach Punch and OHKO, or have priority that can OHKO, or a Ghost, you win.

Facade has 140 BP, which compared to Focus Punch's 150 + STAB isn't very appealing. Also it won't ever be SE.

Stone Edge means be careful. Salamence and Gyara are not good switchins. Honchkrow is a really bad switchin.

Spore does nothing unless whatever you had in had Natural Cure, in which case rinse and repeat.

If you don't let Breloom set up by leaving a sleeping Poke in, you won't lose more than one to it. Odds are you'll also be able to kill. Unlike Salamence, which doesn't need the opportunity to set up, Breloom requires the opponent to make a mistake in order to get more than one kill.
 
Put simply: Anything that doesn't get OHKOed by Focus Punch can walk all over Breloom, assuming you play correctly.

All you have to do is switch out the instant you get Spored. Put in something that'll live through one Focus Punch and you win.
Honestly I have huge troubles with SubSeed Breloom and this is the reason why I often use Taunt over Stone Edge on my Gyarados. But it will still be a problem. Why? Because this thing causes a great amount of switching, slowly dealing damage over time due to entry hazards, Leech Seed and Focus Punch. For example, Breloom users will use Substitute as you switch. That's one switch. If you switch to something that can take a Focus Punch, it will Leech Seed you. Rotom-A, Zapdos, Salamence and others are part of this category. Now it will switch out to a counter if it's Substitute is broken and you are also forced to switch because otherwise you slowly die to Leech Seed. That's another switch. So in the end, it is assumed you have won against the Breloom because it cannot do anything to you and is forced to switch. However, you lose in the end because Breloom loses no HP (as Poison Heal and Leech Seed heals it all back) while your Pokemon take damage from Entry Hazards and Leech Seed damage.

Probably the only effective counters to this set are Substitute Gengar, Taunt Gliscor and Defensive Celebi.
 
Probably the only effective counters to this set are Substitute Gengar, Taunt Gliscor and Defensive Celebi.
Taunt Gliscor doesn't work unless it carries something not named Earthquake. Otherwise Breloom keeps spamming Spore until the Taunt wears off and sleeps you.
 

FlareBlitz

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Are people comparing Mence to Breloom now? Honestly it's shit like this that makes me think this thread should be in PR. Mence and Breloom are not the same...at all. Yeah Breloom has spore, blah blah, just switch in something to take the sleep, switch to Scizor (aka the most common Poke in the metagame), and U-Turn to a ghost or a fighting resist if you see "Breloom is tightening its focus!" or U-Turn to something that can kill it (read: pretty much anything) if it seeds or swords dances or whatever. This is assuming it can even set up in the first place, which isn't exactly easy given its craptackular speed, defenses, and typing. Breloom cannot immediately decimate things with a STAB 140 base power attack from 100 base SATK that has exactly one resist. It cannot set up on a large number of physically-inclined attackers with its ability, typing and reasonable bulk. I'm absolutely not a part of the "Ban Salamence" crowd (I honestly don't know at this point) but this is a completely asinine argument to use.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
Are people comparing Mence to Breloom now? Honestly it's shit like this that makes me think this thread should be in PR. Mence and Breloom are not the same...at all.
Exactly this. Let's try to stay on the topic.

Breloom cannot immediately decimate things with a STAB 140 base power attack from 100 base SATK that has exactly one resist. It cannot set up on a large number of physically-inclined attackers with its ability, typing and reasonable bulk.
It's 110 base SpA to be precise.
 

Ice-eyes

Simper Fi
Agreed. Breloom is very good, especially in Suspect and paired with something like Heatran that lures in bulky Water-types, but it's not broken. The 'free kill' argument doesn't really work because some teams don't actually have something it can get in on, and there's always stuff like ResTalk Gyarados - incredibly popular on Suspect Stall - to ruin your day.
 

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