-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Bye bye Latias! Bring in the apes...
- Thread starter firecape
- Start date
And Vaporeon. Infernape basically cannot do anything to Vaporeon (it needs to hit with +2 Close Combat/Focus Blast twice in a row, a total of 3 turns, not to mention Infernape is overall better off without plot/dance).
188/252/0 Bold Leftovers Vaporeon
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Infernape +2 Focus Blast : 101.3% - 119.4%
vs. 252 Jolly Life Orb Infernape +2 Close Combat : 95.3% - 112.5%
But in any case, Infernape isn't as bad as you all think it is. In fact, I'd be more worried about SpecsJolteon because it has one less safe switchin.
Well Special Mixape is almost always going to be running Close Combat and not focus blast, so that point is generally moot. Special Infernape's strength is that it can take down the best special walls/tanks (blissey/snorlax/ttar) with little to no physical investment. Unfortantely that leaves totally screwed either direction from vappy.
I've never used physical infernape (and failed to do calcs, doh!) so I guess I just didn't realize how powerful its close combat is!
I've never used physical infernape (and failed to do calcs, doh!) so I guess I just didn't realize how powerful its close combat is!
its not that infernape is bad, its just that its impossible to setup with him, he lack the defenses and typing for setting up, and tentacruel/starmie just wall him to death(the later outspeed and ohko, the first only fear t-punch and +2 stone edge), he is better off with 4 atacks and life orb, making vaporeon a somewhat solid counter.
Infernape is good. But it's only so good. Starmie completely ruins it...
And most SD Lucario run ESpeed, so if you're going to switch in on a Lucario, it would most likely SD, then on the next turn it would (?) OHKO with ESpeed. It's a good wallbreaker, but it's the frailest of the frail and is KO'd by almost anything...
On another note, has anyone ever run SD Ape? It works extremely well once it's prime counters are removed (Starmie, Tentacruel, Cress) and it basically sweeps once it's set up. A +2 Flare Blitz is so strong, but it comes with a price, especially if you decide to run LO. But it can KO Gyarados switch ins if it SD's first, and then uses Stone Edge, assuming the Gyarados took SR damage. Same thing goes for Mence - another one of Infernape's counters (unless Ape runs HP Ice, which in turn lets Gyarados set up on it).
So, SD Ape pretty much kills two birds with one stone.
lmitchell0012
Wi-Fi Blacklisted
Blissey has aromatherapy, softboiled, and calm mind so she isn't exactly setup fodder for latias. She basically has all the toys that latias has (with the exception of trick). Also, I know people are going to say "but latias can still render blissey useless if they trick a choice item onto it". This is true, but if latias tricks a choice item on blissey, it can't 2HKO Tyranitar, as it won't have its choice specs.
and what the heck is SD ape doing that SD lucario cant besides killing mence(btw, SD infernape cant ohko flygon with +2 mach punch and need to lose half of its hp to kill a skarmory because of flare blitz), lucario got a better time setting up SD because of its typing and work better has a later game sweeper since he got a stronger priority move and more atack.
Would you stay in on Flygon with Lucario? :|
Neither Ape or Lucario would, so your argument doesn't really make sense.
As for Skarm, that's one of the things that should be removed before trying to set up with either Ape (SD) or Lucario.
As far as typing goes, I agree with you, but both of these Pokemon have their selling points. Gyara and Mence are big threats though, so the SD Ape set shouldn't be overlooked...
Is SD really more useful than U-Turn or Mach Punch though? (Since you'll need Stone Edge / Close Combat / Overheat (or Flare Blitz)). I have doubts (though mach punch's usefulness is pretty much directly related to dd/scarftar popularity . . .).
It should be kept in mind that SD nape can use Overheat to take out Skarm without recoil, and that Physical mixnape's Overheat is about equal to special mixnape's fire blast.
It should be kept in mind that SD nape can use Overheat to take out Skarm without recoil, and that Physical mixnape's Overheat is about equal to special mixnape's fire blast.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
If Rocks are up Nape OHKOs Skarm with fire Punch after an SD. Blaze Kick can do it without, so that's also an option.
Also, I'd take Rock Slide over Stone Edge, as SD Nape still OHKO's BulkyGyara withit accounting for Intimidate drop to +1. I will gladly take 25 less Base Power for 27% chance to Flinch the opponent every turn.
For me, I'm much less willing to depend on Infernape's capacity to stay in and sweep. Too many scarfers, priority, faster pokes. I'll take moves that let me spam them for max damage and run with infernape. SD to me seems most useful once I already know the opponent's team somewhat. As a wall breaker though, infernape will get its best use and mileage in early to mid-early game, meaning I might not know what the enemy's team has.
Therefore, I'd rather have the spam-able Overheat that doesn't require boosting, and the Stone Edge which will do way more damage unboosted to a switch in (where flinching really doesn't matter).
I'm sorry, but no matter how I look at this guy, he doesn't have the speed or bulk to really abuse swords dance. The greatest plot/dance users of gen 4 have all been bulky (Garchomp and Manaphy) except for luke, who still has awesome resists and priority. Infernape is just not in that league.
If there's an opportunity to go with SD and sweep, great. If not, Close Combat/Stone Edge/Overheat still makes for a great wall breaker with awesome coverage (something Special Ape cannot achieve with only 3 attacks). To me, the capacity to hit everything with just 3 moves and still leave the 4th open in case the rare opportunity presents itself, is where physical ape's real potential lies.
. . . though it'd be awesome if Infernape got a good special rock move next gen.
Therefore, I'd rather have the spam-able Overheat that doesn't require boosting, and the Stone Edge which will do way more damage unboosted to a switch in (where flinching really doesn't matter).
I'm sorry, but no matter how I look at this guy, he doesn't have the speed or bulk to really abuse swords dance. The greatest plot/dance users of gen 4 have all been bulky (Garchomp and Manaphy) except for luke, who still has awesome resists and priority. Infernape is just not in that league.
If there's an opportunity to go with SD and sweep, great. If not, Close Combat/Stone Edge/Overheat still makes for a great wall breaker with awesome coverage (something Special Ape cannot achieve with only 3 attacks). To me, the capacity to hit everything with just 3 moves and still leave the 4th open in case the rare opportunity presents itself, is where physical ape's real potential lies.
. . . though it'd be awesome if Infernape got a good special rock move next gen.
