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Byebye Latias! (An OU RMT, reached upper 40s on leaderboard)

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by chewyourfood, Jul 12, 2010.

  1. chewyourfood

    chewyourfood

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2008
    Messages:
    42
    Introduction: Yeah, yeah... I know what you are all thinking: "Oh gosh, not another RMT taking advantage of the Latias ban..." But..., think twice! This is a team I used that takes advantage of Latias's bulk, speed, and strength; this team got me to the upper 40s on the leaderboard until Latias was banned to ubers. Since then, I have been trying new teams and therefore managed to peak at #30. But alas, I found no suitable replacement for Latias, and therefore I think it’s time to put this team to eternal rest…

    Anyways, on to the team!
    Team at a glance...
    [​IMG]

    Team at a much closer glance...
    [​IMG]
    Azelf @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Naïve (+Spd, -SDef)
    EV Spread: 4 HP/252 SAtk/252 Spd
    Moves:
    -Stealth Rock
    - Psychic
    -Fire Blast
    -Explosion

    Azelf is an amazing lead. He sets up SR 80% of the time. He is also able to take out a good number of Pokemon after he has set up SR as well, if I can outsmart my oponents. For example, against Heatran I usually use Psychic instead of Explosion because many times people will overpredict and switch to a ghost type only to get a Psychic to their face. The only real problems that Azelf has as a lead are Infernape and Tyranitar; in which case all Azelf can do is set up SR and die to Fire Blast/Crunch + Sandstorm. But that’s where my next two Pokemon come in.

    [​IMG]
    Machamp @Leftovers
    Ability: No Guard
    Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SAtk)
    EV Spread: 248 HP/252 Atk/8 Spd
    Moves:
    -Substitute
    -Dynamicpunch
    -Payback
    -Stone Edge

    Machamp is amazing at dealing with Pokemon that Azelf can’t. If Tyranitar brings down Azelf, I bring in Machamp. Depending on how gutsy I am feeling, I either Substitute or use Payback to really hurt those ghosts who like switching in on Dynamicpunch. Machamp also likes to abuse his confusion hax, which will on some occasions get me some wins due to ragequits.

    [​IMG]
    Salamence @Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    Nature: Jolly (+Spd, -SAtk)
    EV Spread: 252 HP/180 Def/ 76 Spd
    Moves:
    -Dragon Dance
    -Dragon Claw
    -Earthquake
    -Roost

    When looking at Salamence, most people usually think whether or not it is a LO DD Mence or a Mixmence. Usually the opponent will sack one Pokemon to bring in a counter (and don’t start any “Mence has no counter shit”). However, with underestimated defenses and a beyond helpful ability, Salamence can easily set up. For example, I’ll bring in Salamence after Azelf has died to Infernape, and proceed to Dragon Dance, roosting off any Fire Blast/Close Combat damage if necessary. Then, after I have accumulated enough Dragon Dances, then I kill that annoying monkey, and they bring in Scizor, only to see that its Bullet Punch only does around 40% on average. On many occasions, I have swept entire teams with this Salamence.

    [​IMG]
    Latias @Choice Specs
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
    EV Spread: 4 HP/252 SAtk/252 Spd
    Moves:
    -Draco Meteor
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Surf
    -Trick

    Ah, Latias… I’m sure most of you know the capabilities of Latias, able to severely damage all non-steel types with its powerful Draco Meteors, and able to 2HKO – 3HKO any steel types. Latias worked well as a late game sweeper, able to outspeed a variety of threats and hit hard with Dragon Pulse. It was also able to cripple Pokemon like Blissey and Skarmory thanks to Trick.

    [​IMG]
    Magnezone @Leftovers
    Ability: Magnet Pull
    Nature: Modest (+SAtk, -Atk)
    EV Spread: 148 HP/252 SAtk/108 Spd
    Moves:
    -Substitute
    -Thunder Wave
    -Thunderbolt
    -HP Ice

    I saw someone else using this Magnezone, and decided to utilize its abilities for myself; it worked great. By coming in on a choice-locked steel, such as Iron Head Jirachi or Dragon Pulse Scarftran, I can set up a substitute and proceed to 2HKO those two with a strong Thunderbolt. Many times a Flygon or a Gliscor will switch in to absorb my Thunderbolt/Thunder Wave, only to get killed by HP Ice. Thunder Wave is good for crippling fast sweepers that Magnezone can’t handle. For example, if Salamence has fainted and a Lucario comes in to break Magnezone’s sub, I simply Thunder Wave it, since I know that Thunderbolt will not KO it, and another Pokemon can come in and OHKO it.

    [​IMG]
    Heatran @Choice Specs
    Ability: Flash Fire
    Nature: Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
    EV Spread: 4 HP/252 SAtk/252 Spd
    Moves:
    -Overheat
    -Earth Power
    -HP Grass
    -Flamethrower

    Specstran is probably one of the most underrated movesets in the game. To demonstrate its power, I will show damage calculations against the Pokemon that like to switch into Heatran.

    Vs. Standard DD LO Salamence: 76.1-89.7 (OHKO with SR)
    Vs. Offensive DD Gyarados: 56.8-67.1 (2HKO with SR)
    Vs. Lead Swampert: 50.7-59.9
    Vs. Standard Vaporeon: 43.8-51.6
    Vs. Offensive Suicune: 48.8-57.6
    Vs. Choice Scarf Flygon: 74.8-88.0 (2HKO with SR)
    Vs. DD Kingdra: 33.3-39.5
    Vs. Choice Scarf Tyranitar: 55.0-64.9

    With +1 Flash Fire boost:
    Vs. Standard DD LO Salamence: 100
    Vs. Offensive DD Gyarados: 85.2-100 (85 chance to OHKO)
    Vs. Lead Swampert: 76.2-89.9
    Vs. Standard Vaporeon: 65.6-77.5
    Vs. Offensive Suicune: 73.1-86.0
    Vs. Choice Scarf Flygon: 100
    Vs. DD Kingdra: 50.2-59.1
    Vs. Choice Scarf Tyranitar: 82.5-97.1

    Heatran also provides many useful resistances, and acts as a sponge for the many Pokemon that the rest of my team can’t handle. Earth Power hits incoming Heatran hard, and HP Grass maims Swampert when I really need that OHKO.

    Conclusion:
    My largest regret with playing with this team is the fact that I didn’t manage to create this team earlier, otherwise I would have a good chance at cracking the top 20.

    With Latias gone, many problem pokemon have arose, such as Gliscor, Salamence, Infernape, etc…

    Aside from that, I hope you enjoyed reading my very first RMT! Any rates and comments are appreciated!

    Special Thanks:
    Arkeis for the pictures.
    Latias for being a great Pokemon.

    -Fin-​
  2. Eggbert

    Eggbert

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
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    1,076
    As many people are doing, you can try a starmie out instead of latias. Starmie boasts similar stats and typing, although you gain an electric weakness, lose EQ immunity, lose some power, and lose the magnificent draco meteor. However, you do gain an important water type, an STAB hydro pump comes pretty close to draco meteor. Trick is kept as well.
  3. CuddyBuddy

    CuddyBuddy

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    30
    Anyways looks like a solid tean. I'd change specslatias to ScarfLatias because you already have SpecsTran. Also, you stole my set wrong. Instead of hidden power ice, give it hidden power grass for swamperts and tyranitars that come in on it. Flygon (assuming its scarfgon) will Earthquake anyways so you can HP Grass and get a little damage in, then go to Latias or even start setting up with Salamence.
  4. chewyourfood

    chewyourfood

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2008
    Messages:
    42
    Eggbert: I'll be sure to try that out, but I think I might find troubles without that extra ground resist that Latias gave me.
  5. Doctor Who?

    Doctor Who?

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
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    Building on Eggbert's rate, you shouldn't make Starmie Specs if you do replace Latias with it. With lo it doesn't lose too much power and you have a better time against stall. Additionally, it could really help Salamence if you ran Rapid Spin on it.

    Starmie @ Lefetovers
    136HP 156 S.ATK 216 SPD, Timid
    Hydro Pump/T-bolt/Rapid Spin/Recover

    Ripped from smogon.

    EDIT: I copied that set wrong. It's supposed to be 156 DEF not 156 S.ATK.
  6. Wanderer

    Wanderer

    Joined:
    May 1, 2009
    Messages:
    95
    Supporting the Starmie suggestion, but instead of Specs I suggest trying a Scarfer if you think you'll miss the Trick, or the spinner set if keeping SR off for Mence is more beneficial. If you use Specs, it's far too easy for something like either of the two DD Dragons or DD Gyarados to come in on a choiced move and set up. You can play around the dragons to an extent by luring an Outrage, but Gyarados with DD/Bounce/Waterfall/EQ would easily sweep the entirety of your team.

    And CuddyBuddy, you can't really reserve a set. If you made it and use it, expect other people to use it after they see it in action. In any case, if he "stole your set wrong", then it's probably not the set you made in the first place.
  7. Towelie

    Towelie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    665
    Hi. This team looks excellent, as proven by your leaderboard score, and I love bulky mence. It sets up so easily on things and it's just awesome. Anyways, for Latias it looks like you really wanted something with high speed and power with good bulk that checks many threats and cleans up late game. I have a pokemon, while it's bulk isn't the best, it pairs up amazingly with Magnezone and cleans up great late game. This is LO Aerodactyl. The set is Aerodactyl@Life Orb
    252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def
    Stone Edge
    Earthquake
    Taunt
    Roost.

    You may seem extremely skeptical at first, but I wrote a set on it for C & C. Heres the link: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2784430

    if you don't want to read the analysis, this is what the set does: After shit has been weakened and its counters are gone, it wreaks havoc late game with its amazing base 130 speed. it also checks so much of the metagame. it survives +2 luke e speed after rocks, outspeeds and kos lo gengar who looks like it can be very troublesome to this team, kos starmie with rocks and lo recoil, taunts celebi (no t wave) and hits it very hard with SE. taunts blissey and laughs at it. taunts dusknoir. taunts cresselia. taunts gliscor and laughs as it doesnt do shit with eq. outspeeds adamant gyara and kos with stone edge. kos mence after intimidate and rocks with se. outspeeds and kos mixape who troubles this team (actually specially based ohkos your whole team bar machamp which it 2hkos) ties with specs jolt and kos obv, taunts togekiss and stone edges it to death, kos zappy after rocks, but this set does have a few counters. these are: bronzong, flygon, breloom, scizor so watch out for this. it also hits jirachi for pretty solid damage. i hope you like my set, so try it out! :D and very good team, specs latias used to be my favorite poke till it left :(
  8. greg3064

    greg3064

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    Messages:
    348
    This IS a very good team, but I think the main problem with Latias gone will be Gyara, which is why I think a Scarfed Starmie could help you a lot. I wouldn't use that Aerodactyl just because it won't outspeed +1 Jolly Gyara, which is what almost every non-bulky Gyara is these days.
  9. chewyourfood

    chewyourfood

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2008
    Messages:
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    Towelie: Thanks for the suggestion! I'll be sure to try that out. However now I am in lack of a fast special attacker which can take on the likes of Hippowdon and Gliscor if/when Aerodactyl...

    Thanks for the suggestions guys! More comments would still be appreciated.
  10. Doctor Who?

    Doctor Who?

    Joined:
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    If you use the set I suggested (standard rapid spinner set) you don't need to worry about jolly gyara, 67.5% - 79.7% from a +1 EQ and then you can t-bolt it to death.

    But I wouldn't even worry about jolly gyara that much, it lacks the necessary power to sweep a team (sometimes an unboosted waterfall fails to 1hko 4HP/0DEF heatran...96.9% - 114.8%) and only ~20% of gyara are jolly anyway (| Gyarados | Nature | Jolly | 21.5 |) so yeah, not a problem.
  11. Towelie

    Towelie

    Joined:
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    Hi again. Aerodactyl beats non-ice fang hippo and gliscor 100% of the time so I don't see why that's an issue. This even has more longevity than latias because it has roost to heal and its not pursuit weak and asking for ttar to come in and laugh at you.
  12. Enygma

    Enygma

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Messages:
    372
    ^ With those calcs, it means that an unboosted Waterfall WILL 1hko 100% of the time when factoring in SR, which are present in about 98% of battles. Just pointing that out.

    Anyways, I second (or third/fourth/whatever) the suggestion of Specs Starmie on your team since it pretty much keeps the same synergy as Latias despite the loss of a ground resist and a powerful 140 Base STAB.
  13. Towelie

    Towelie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
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    Oh and about your gyara weakness. Aero outspeeds Adamant versions, and kos obviously. jolly ones are handled easily by magnezone and machamp so if you add aero i dont think your gyarados problem is that huge.
  14. TubaKing

    TubaKing

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2009
    Messages:
    315
    Congrats on your laddering achievements!
    I also like the Starmie suggestion that other users made.
    If that doesn't work out, you could always try Choice Scarf or Choice Specs Celebi.
    Celebi learns Trick, has the Ground and Fighting resistances that running both Heatran and Magnezone requires, and lures Fire attacks to Heatran in the famous CeleTran combo. Leaf Storm always KOs Physically Defensive Hippowdon with both Specs and Scarf (even without SR in play), with 252 SpA Timid unboosted Leaf Storm doing 106.2% - 125.7% to him, while HP Ice does 91.5% - 108.5% to Stallbreaker Gliscor (assuming Scarf).
    Modest Specs Psychic does 72% - 85% to Stallbreaker Gliscor.
    Scarf Celebi can act as a revenge killer for Gliscor, Salamence, and Infernape and even serve as a pivot with U-Turn, if you are so inclined. It's always fun to see TTar come in only to take a U-Turn to the face. :)
    I hope I helped.
    Good luck reviving your team!

    EDIT: Zooey Deschanel is the shit.
  15. chewyourfood

    chewyourfood

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    Thanks! That helps a lot. I guess the only thing I have to worry about Gliscor then is me running out of Stone Edge PP... =P

    Thanks for the suggestion! I'll definitely try that Celebi out. And yes, Zooey is the shit. =)
  16. Towelie

    Towelie

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    Hi. If you taunt gliscor, keep taunting. DONT STONE EDGE. waste its EQ pp and watch it struggle.
  17. chewyourfood

    chewyourfood

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    Ah, got it. Thanks!
  18. GaRgAnt

    GaRgAnt

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    Apr 26, 2010
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    ^ This is a team that is a relic from the days when Latias was OU. Please know your history before you make such posts.

    I'm not going to say Starmie.

    I'm going to say substitute Rotom-H over Latias, since Rotom has those two excellent STABs. Make it Scarfed, so you have a fast and furious revenge killer, and give it Overheat; should someone take the risk and switch in an Agiligross into your Heatran locked onto HP Grass, then good luck trying to stop it the way your team is now (Not sure about how Machamp is going to survive a Meteor Mash).
  19. chewyourfood

    chewyourfood

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    Hi, thanks for the suggestion! I have tried out Specs Rotom-W which gave me a nice ground/electric resist. But yes, since my only way of stopping agiligross is sending out a full health Machamp (It will always survive a Meteor Mash and will usually survive a Edit: Non-LO Zen Headbutt) I think that Scarf Rotom would work well. Thanks!
  20. Doctor Who?

    Doctor Who?

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    I'm not saying that you shoudl keep Heatran in on Gyara or anything else, but I'm just saying that it is rather sad that with Jolly Gyara can't even ohko a pokemon weak to water with a stab Waterfall. Doesn't anybody else find that really sad??
  21. greg3064

    greg3064

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    The point of Jolly Gyara is to outspeed its usual fast switch-ins at +1 Speed. Obviously using a +Spe nature is going to limit his power, but it does what it's supposed to. Fact of the matter is, you're usually going to be facing +1 Jolly Gyara anyway. It comes in on something that can't touch it and DDs on the switch. If your opponent has a Scarfed Thunderbolt waiting in the wings they've got you, but it can put teams without an answer to it in a bad position.
  22. Doctor Who?

    Doctor Who?

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    But would you lose almost 10% of your power just so you can outspeed Jolteon and Choice Scarf pokemon which you can easily beat with prediction because Scarfers don't hit that hard anyway. Adamant >>> Jolly anyday for me. Back we are getting really off topic so I'll get us back onto the team with another rate.

    I think if you want to run Rapid Spin somewhere to help Salamence get off a sweep then you are best to run Starmie however if you don't mind mence having to take 25% each time it comes in (and with Roost and Defensive evs there is a case to be made that you don't need Rapid Spin) I think the best replacement would be a pokemon with a ground resistance/immunity due to the 4x weaknesses of both Magnezone and Heatran. I think that Celebi would be worth considering as the alternative to Latias because of its combination with Heatran. It may not seem like the best alternative because of the inability to take Infernape Fire Blasts but with Salamence's HP evs you don't take anymore than 35% from any of the three most common moves in June, you just need to watch out for Hidden Power Ice.
  23. Shizzle

    Shizzle

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    Disagree with Starmie, but with 2 pokes taking x4 from Ground, having only 1 immunity/resist [Azelf is a suicide lead, so not included] is no good, especially when that pokemon is weak to SR and has Life Orb!! Well, not entirely disagreeing, but you should probably change something else too if you are replacing Latias with Starmie, otherwise something spamming EQ can really walk through this team.

    Personally I feel that Dragonite would function better as a bulky Dragon Dancer, simply because it can take an Ice Beam from several pokes and survive, giving it a better chance to bypass Salamence's common checks.

    I also should not have to mention how weak this team is to MixApe. To change this, either a Vaporeon would do, and its Wish Passing would be extremely helpful to most of your teamates. Of course Starmie does the job better, but it leaves your team open to EQ Spam, whereas Vaporeon can take an EQ or two rather well, and Wish/Surf/Protect the damage off.
  24. chewyourfood

    chewyourfood

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    I honestly find no need to rapid spin because (as you mentioned) I have roost. I have been trying out Celebi as well as Choice Scarf Rotom.

    Thanks for the rates!

    Just a little correction: Salamence has leftovers, not LO... lol. I actually have been trying out Celebi, Aerodactyl, and Rotom as a replacement as they offer good ground resists and have decent attacking capabilities.

    I found that Salamence's intimidate as well as his extra speed are more valuable then Dragonite's ability to survive Ice Beam. Another reason why I don't use Dragonite is because Dragonite will constantly have to roost off Ice Beams, and those Ice Beams will eventually conjure up some hax lol...

    The three replacements I have been using for Latias handle Mixape fairly well. Choice Scarf Celebi can come in on a Close Combat and hit it with an Earth Power, Aerodactly can't really come in on anything, but if it must, it comes in on a Flamethrower/Fire Blast and either roosts if I predict a switch or EQ if I predict that he stays in. Choice Scarf Rotom functions the same way Celebi does. Come in on a resisted fighting move and hit it with Thunderbolt.
  25. TubaKing

    TubaKing

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    Have you tested Colbur Azelf for the lead position?
    The on-site analysis for the set in the Strategy Pokedex is definitely worth reading.
    Here's an RMT that goes into the advantages of the Colbur Berry set:
    http://smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72915
    You'll definitely find it helpful at least in the lead match-up against Tyranitar.

    EDIT: I've also seen some good players using the Colbur set with Stealth Rock, Zen Headbutt, Fire Blast, and Explosion.

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